Harassment everywhere

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Originally Posted by Dirt-Muppet

Admittedly I was a bit crushed, because it wasn't the introduction to the forums I expected, or wanted.
I thought maybe Limit Break Radio were right, these forums aren't for every XIV player, & I'd made a mistake joining up.

But I'm here now, I'd love participate on boards here - if you folks will have me ^^

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Don't let you down, sometimes it can be a bit rough or hot heated especially if opinions and experiences are colidng with each other but that is part of discussions.

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

People don't like to be told their wrong.

Just did a trial with 2 paladins.... one told the other if they want to MT they need to put their shield up.

"Dont need it at 50"

Apparently he didn't give a crap about enimity mechanics and being able to let OT do more DPS?

Oh..here's the kicker...moron paladin was a mentor.

Yeah....

Even I knew that 2 paladins always trade off stances...even tanks....its just....a well duh.

Oh and the speed run idiots.....yeah..gotta love those.

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Not sure about the details, but I thought that due to the fact that pld only combo is their enmity one staying in sword oath is better. With proper use of shirk both tanks should be able to stay out of tank stance. I do not think this is an issue of a so called "moron" more so someone trying to fit within the moar dps mindset and maybe not executing it properly. I know of many tanks that try to tank in DPS stance without proper cooldown usage due to people telling said players that tanking in DPS is the proper way to tank without being told the added context. As I said not sure of the details but calling said player a moron seems rather silly since people are often told to do something especially when it comes to the proper way to tank and heal without the context so they simply just blindly follow the advice and thus share same advice with others. Granted he may be a mentor, but that is simply a meaningless icon / title.

In the end said player information was right, just poorly executed.

People fear harassment because players can be jerks, and show it when empowered to do so. They will spam vote abandon, they will leave instances that can be done easily the moment anything happens, (especially tanks), and they will complain endlessly about bad players as a way to stroke their own egos, and reinforce an us versus them mindset. Adding parsers to the mix might make it even more volatile, for a game that has a very weak sense of community to begin with. Where you think this is justified or not, is up to you. But I really don't have much faith in people to act responsibly; i've changed to tank too many times to replace someone who left after one wipe in a learning trial, and seen too much forum talk for me to believe that.

What I read on the forums: Lots of toxic and harassment topics.
What I see in game: Lots of nice and friendly people.

I had one user suggest that I change classes on Susano normal. Months ago. Newsflash: can't advance in MSQ without using my main class, and it's my favorite too. Those are the types of users the red knights (read: GMs) are obligated to put to task at the Gaol.

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Originally Posted by Bongaboi

I had one user suggest that I change classes on Susano normal. Months ago. Newsflash: can't advance in MSQ without using my main class, and it's my favorite too. Those are the types of users the red knights (read: GMs) are obligated to put to task at the Gaol.

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What?

It's a pretty pointless suggestion, I'll definitely give you that, but uh, unless they worded it in with a tirade of abuse, I'm not really sure why a GM should be concerned with something like that?

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Originally Posted by Tridus

Considering earlier tonight I died in World of Darkness because I somehow pulled Cloud of Darkness off all three tanks 3 minutes into the fight? I dunno. Seems like they needed it.

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Most randoms you meet in DF fail to meet a very low bar of skill, there is a thread for this. It is as easy as I said though, and gear is a factor you need to have as well.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Not sure about the details, but I thought that due to the fact that pld only combo is their enmity one staying in sword oath is better. With proper use of shirk both tanks should be able to stay out of tank stance. I do not think this is an issue of a so called "moron" more so someone trying to fit within the moar dps mindset and maybe not executing it properly. I know of many tanks that try to tank in DPS stance without proper cooldown usage due to people telling said players that tanking in DPS is the proper way to tank without being told the added context. As I said not sure of the details but calling said player a moron seems rather silly since people are often told to do something especially when it comes to the proper way to tank and heal without the context so they simply just blindly follow the advice and thus share same advice with others. Granted he may be a mentor, but that is simply a meaningless icon / title.

In the end said player information was right, just poorly executed.

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I think it was just a discussion they are complaining about, not if it was executed or not. Basically they only posted to "mock" that mentor that ended up backfiring.

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

That's correct. The reason is the tank cannot run with his 500 mobs to you (thus, breaking/vanishing all and any aoe effects under mobs feet) to get the one mob you have.

You don't need to kiss Tank, just move your mob near enough to have him range with flash or anything else to get your mob.

We tanks want to get your mobs, but we don't want chase our dps or healers mates running away because they got hate. Running to tank, not to the other side of the duty, is the best thing to do if rogue mobs break hate from tank.

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Keep in mind the range of shield lob/tomahawk/unmend is 15 yalms. This is half the typical range you'd have as a dps. It's entirely possible for you to be close enough, but not the tank.

While I agree, people cannot or will not, for that matter, listen to most advice one will give even though it's meant to be helpful. I've tried to give some players advice, but it's mostly met with silence. Though I've noticed that the silent people do adapt, it showed in the dungeon. But more so than once I've been greeted by the ''You don't pay my sub'' and ''I play how I want'' sentences. Although I do agree that I don't pay their sub and I can't force them to change their playstyle to my liking. I don't mean any harm when giving advice.

I've also been on the other side, though a bit different:

I was just a scrub Arcanist who thought he was doing 'okay'. I just picked up the game and I knew the base of my class: DoTs. I entered Tam-Tara for the 2nd or 3rd time, I thought I was doing well, until the other DPS said: 'DO YOU KNOW HOW TO DOT SUMMONER????' Just like that, in full caps. I ignored it as I read Summoner. I didn' t reply. Because I had no idea what a Summoner was and I thought it was meant to one of the other party members. Then the DPS called me out again, this time with my name. It was then that I replied by telling him I wasn't a Summoner but an Arcanist. He told me that they were one and the same thing, all again in caps.
At the end of the small, but on his side heated conversation he just told me to 'git gud' and learn how to play Arcanist/Summoner.

This got me thinking. I was annoyed, but not by the fact that he called me bad or that he said I had to learn to do my job better, because I agreed. I was new to the game and had barely any experience with it. But he, he who called me out to DoT better, he must know, right? And thus I asked. I asked him how to DoT as Arcanist. But it was met with 'git gud' and 'scrub' as answers, Which did not help me in the slightest. At the end of the dungeon I almost wanted to quit the game because I thought I did everything wrong. And just because one person couldn't tell me how to do it, even though he knew. But he decided to make fun of me instead of helping me out.

So, I logged out that day. The day after I told my boyfriend what happened and he explained what that person meant: Apply all your DoTs to all enemies. Not just on one enemy at a time, which is what I did in the first place. And that made sense to me. That random player didn't take the 1-3 minutes he needed to explain such a simple thing.

In the end, that experience made me a better player, knowing how it is when someone tells you to 'git gud' but doesn't help any way beyond that. And in order to prevent that, I try my best to explain the core of a job to a new player when they ask for it, or when I see someone not catching the basics quite yet. I know it can't be learned over the course of a dungeon run, but as long as I see improvements, how small they may be, after I've given advice, I know I did something good.

That guy was an idiot for talking to you that way. A simple look at your search info, or even the fact that your icon showed Acn should have told him you were new.
There are bad apples in the community, but personally I've made the experience that most players are very friendly, especially to new players and if someone accepts advice.

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Originally Posted by Kinazu

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I was just a scrub Arcanist who thought he was doing 'okay'. I just picked up the game and I knew the base of my class: DoTs. I entered Tam-Tara for the 2nd or 3rd time, I thought I was doing well, until the other DPS said: 'DO YOU KNOW HOW TO DOT SUMMONER????' Just like that, in full caps. I ignored it as I read Summoner. I didn' t reply. Because I had no idea what a Summoner was and I thought it was meant to one of the other party members. Then the DPS called me out again, this time with my name. It was then that I replied by telling him I wasn't a Summoner but an Arcanist. He told me that they were one and the same thing, all again in caps.
At the end of the small, but on his side heated conversation he just told me to 'git gud' and learn how to play Arcanist/Summoner.

This got me thinking. I was annoyed, but not by the fact that he called me bad or that he said I had to learn to do my job better, because I agreed. I was new to the game and had barely any experience with it. But he, he who called me out to DoT better, he must know, right? And thus I asked. I asked him how to DoT as Arcanist. But it was met with 'git gud' and 'scrub' as answers, Which did not help me in the slightest. At the end of the dungeon I almost wanted to quit the game because I thought I did everything wrong. And just because one person couldn't tell me how to do it, even though he knew. But he decided to make fun of me instead of helping me out.

So, I logged out that day. The day after I told my boyfriend what happened and he explained what that person meant: Apply all your DoTs to all enemies. Not just on one enemy at a time, which is what I did in the first place. And that made sense to me. That random player didn't take the 1-3 minutes he needed to explain such a simple thing.

In the end, that experience made me a better player, knowing how it is when someone tells you to 'git gud' but doesn't help any way beyond that. And in order to prevent that, I try my best to explain the core of a job to a new player when they ask for it, or when I see someone not catching the basics quite yet. I know it can't be learned over the course of a dungeon run, but as long as I see improvements, how small they may be, after I've given advice, I know I did something good.

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That person was unquestionably harassing.
That type of person should be reported.

They were not interested in helping you improve, only talking down to you.

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Originally Posted by Kinazu

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But more so than once I've been greeted by the ''You don't pay my sub'' and ''I play how I want'' sentences. Although I do agree that I don't pay their sub and I can't force them to change their playstyle to my liking.
...

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That argument is rather silly...

"You don't pay my sub!"
Well, that person doesn't pay the sub of the other # members in the party either...
And there's more of them.

I mean players aren't obligated to tell you how to play your class. He pointed out something he felt was lacking but that doesn't put him under any obligation to tell you how to fix it. Like I can yell at someone to use their turn signals while driving, I won't tell em how to use them though.

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Originally Posted by TaranTatsuuchi

That argument is rather silly...

"You don't pay my sub!"
Well, that person doesn't pay the sub of the other # members in the party either...
And there's more of them.

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And I agree, it's not a good argument, or not even an arguement at all. But that doesn't mean that we can force them to play how we want, even though I sometimes think it may make a lot of dungeon runs and raids go smoother.

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

I mean players aren't obligated to tell you how to play your class. He pointed out something he felt was lacking but that doesn't put him under any obligation to tell you how to fix it. Like I can yell at someone to use their turn signals while driving, I won't tell em how to use them though.

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True. But in that instance I asked for advice. Which was met with rudeness.
As for your example, I imagine someone who can drive legally knows how to use the signals but just refuses to use them. I, in this case, didn't know what he meant at all and was looking for an explenation. Which I suppose is a bit different.

People are by no means forced to tell you how to play a certain job, but if someone asks you to explain it after you told them they did a bad job and you just laugh at them or make fun of them; Who's doing something wrong at that point? The confused new player, or the one who knows but refuses to tell?

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Originally Posted by Yeol

What I read on the forums: Lots of toxic and harassment topics.
What I see in game: Lots of nice and friendly people.

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I don't see that at all. People barely even talk in game. I can count on one hand the times I got advice or even help; I learned everything about my jobs myself through third party sites or powering through it. Most instances are silent. People assume way too much about this community in game, probably cause they havent played MMOs long to see the difference.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

I can count on one hand the times I got advice or even help; I learned everything about my jobs myself through third party sites or powering through it.

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I can't remember a single time where someone didn't give a rude response or flat out ignore advice or help from me when they didn't explicitly ask for it to begin with.

The amount of times I see harassment thrown around as a case, you'd think FFXIV was Tumblr.

@kinazu you are correct in your assessment of that guy. Sure axel is right that no one is obligated to teach, but if someone acts like that and gives no helpful advice. They are harassing and them speaking in the first place had no real value to the community. I am sure that someone like your boyfriend, would have explained your class to you in time.

@riyarp sorry that has been your experience. I have run many instances where by chatting and trying to make it more entertaining for people has lead to great experiences and really enjoyable memories. I always say hi in the dungeons and complement good play. I think once people realize that I am not going to bite someone’s head off they relax and are more open to conversation. I have had bad apples, but I have helped and supported many people along the way. Randos and people on my server. I like our community and I put forth effort to make it better. I think this perspective can drastically change how everyone interacts in game.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

I can't remember a single time where someone didn't give a rude response or flat out ignore advice or help from me when they didn't explicitly ask for it to begin with.

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I go by axiom that unsolicited advice is unwelcome advice. I only help if someone asks. If they mention they are new, I will offer if it looks like they are struggling.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

I go by axiom that unsolicited advice is unwelcome advice. I only help if someone asks. If they mention they are new, I will offer if it looks like they are struggling.

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Last time I had someone say they were new they kept pulling every boss before I could explain mechanics. I jut pretty much keep to myself now unless people ask for something.

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Originally Posted by Dirt-Muppet

I can field that curiosity, Neri.

Yes, my very first post is to that thread - I can promise you I was just trying to be helpful.
(I even linked a screenshot within that first post - but I got still got called out on it).

Admittedly I was a bit crushed, because it wasn't the introduction to the forums I expected, or wanted.
I thought maybe Limit Break Radio were right, these forums aren't for every XIV player, & I'd made a mistake joining up.

But I'm here now, I'd love participate on boards here - if you folks will have me ^^

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I looked at your first post and the two responses to it. Neither were hostile at all.

If you truly felt that was hostile, I have to honestly say the forums aren't for you.

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

That's correct. The reason is the tank cannot run with his 500 mobs to you (thus, breaking/vanishing all and any aoe effects under mobs feet) to get the one mob you have.

You don't need to kiss Tank, just move your mob near enough to have him range with flash or anything else to get your mob.

We tanks want to get your mobs, but we don't want chase our dps or healers mates running away because they got hate. Running to tank, not to the other side of the duty, is the best thing to do if rogue mobs break hate from tank.

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Well that cost you a lot of dps. Since if you move cancels your attack chain. Also I when I play a tank class I always watch the monsters agro if see one going after another player I make sure hit it to bring it back. Also Monster that attack me wasn't very far from the tank. My War could hit it easy. Tanks jobs is to watch agro to monsters in a large pull to make sure they don't go after the healer or dps. Otherwise your not good tank.

That's why we need built-in parser, ppl tho other don;t know how bad they were so they "advise" others using inappropriate manner.
If everyone know their DPS clearly, then at least you can see how good the bad guys doing.

It's society these days everyone is offended look at H&M lol one mistake and people are destroying their stores lol and up in arms about something that was clearly a huge over looked mistake

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Originally Posted by Kinazu

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Kinda sounds like a troll right there. He lost credibility when he called you a Summoner when you were an Arcanist.
Not to mention (correct me, someone, if I'm wrong here, but), even if you were a Summoner, you'd get synced and some of the skillsets you'd have would be cut off from you, so, I would've love to have known just what you weren't doing, other than what you already were doing, that you needed to do.

Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if the guy said that cause he was the weak dps of the group and was trying to put the blame on you.

Sorry that happened to you. Don't let it get you down too much. When you play a popular game like this, you're bound to run into the crazies.

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Originally Posted by Nicobo

That's why we need built-in parser, ppl tho other don;t know how bad they were so they "advise" others using inappropriate manner.
If everyone know their DPS clearly, then at least you can see how good the bad guys doing.

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Please don't bring another parser discussion here, because then this thread will also turn into a parser discussion. We have three or four of those going on simultaneously right now lol. That being said, agreed. DPS players need to top of the 1-button/half-rotation combos, because it does affect everybody else's run.

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Originally Posted by Sorciechan

Kinda sounds like a troll right there. He lost credibility when he called you a Summoner when you were an Arcanist.
Not to mention (correct me, someone, if I'm wrong here, but), even if you were a Summoner, you'd get synced and some of the skillsets you'd have would be cut off from you, so, I would've love to have known just what you weren't doing, other than what you already were doing, that you needed to do.

Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if the guy said that cause he was the weak dps of the group and was trying to put the blame on you.

Sorry that happened to you. Don't let it get you down too much. When you play a popular game like this, you're bound to run into the crazies.

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Did you read the post fully? because they explained what the issue was and learned but even so, they did so in a bad manner. Kinazu was not casting dots on the other monsters. So basically kinazu would cast their dots on one target, kill it, then move on the next, that is not how you do things.

Also I see people call the job name of the class they are on a lot, it is not troll, some people forget classes exists or simply more used to using the job name when talking.

I am not defending Kinazu's rude person, way that person acted was uncalled for, its just someone calling a class the job it leads into is insanely common, I wouldn't call someone a troll for doing that, it is more out of habit then anything.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

Please don't bring another parser discussion here, because then this thread will also turn into a parser discussion. We have three or four of those going on simultaneously right now lol. That being said, agreed. DPS players need to top of the 1-button/half-rotation combos, because it does affect everybody else's run.

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The OP referenced prasers>< they are basically mocking ani-praser view points

"I noticed it more in parser topic;like "your DPS is low" OMG Harasment call the GM !""

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

The OP referenced prasers>< they are basically mocking ani-praser view points

"I noticed it more in parser topic;like "your DPS is low" OMG Harasment call the GM !""

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But making fun of something you think is silly isn't the same as asking for a debate on the topic. I get that you have an opinion here but there are ample threads in which to discuss parsing, this one is to address people being too easily offended in this game.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

But making fun of something you think is silly isn't the same as asking for a debate on the topic. I get that you have an opinion here but there are ample threads in which to discuss parsing, this one is to address people being too easily offended in this game.

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That is why I disagree with them making this thread in the first place but I did not comment that until now because now I feel I have to explain this. Basically I see this thread in bad taste in trying to call out other people's opinions on those threads.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

That is why I disagree with them making this thread in the first place but I did not comment that until now because now I feel I have to explain this. Basically I see this thread in bad taste in trying to call out other people's opinions on those threads.

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DPS is low doesn't always reference parsing, though. If I'm tanking, I can tell if mobs are taking forever to die - maybe I'm not able to single out a single DPS, but I can tell when something doesn't feel right. The OP is right, though, there are players who are getting way too sensible about things that are, in a lot of cases, neutral and solid advice, and for whatever reason, they end up getting too offended.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

DPS is low doesn't always reference parsing, though. If I'm tanking, I can tell if mobs are taking forever to die - maybe I'm not able to single out a single DPS, but I can tell when something doesn't feel right. The OP is right, though, there are players who are getting way too sensible about things that are, in a lot of cases, neutral and solid advice, and for whatever reason, they end up getting too offended.

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I know that, but this thread was clearly made because of those parser threads.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

That is why I disagree with them making this thread in the first place but I did not comment that until now because now I feel I have to explain this. Basically I see this thread in bad taste in trying to call out other people's opinions on those threads.

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Then disagree about that, it's fine. I disagree with you 100%. All I'm saying is stick to this topic and don't turn this into another parser debate is all.

This thread's taste level is something you're certainly welcome to question. I love it and I think it's something more people should read because many players act like oversensative children when confronted with the idea that they're performing poorly. Argue that. Argue parsers somewhere else though :D

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

I know that, but this thread was clearly made because of those parser threads.

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No, it was made because people in-game and on these forums are acting scandalized whenever they're criticized. That simple.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

I know that, but this thread was clearly made because of those parser threads.

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Pretty sure the OP was making it in response to both in-game and forums users lately being quickly offended...but I can't speak for them.

Also, let me just add this one real quick, while this thread has a lot of merit because people want to be special and act like everything hurts their feelings, we are not as bad as some other places. Good grief, I just took a look at the threads for my other main game, OW...all I can say is, yeah, our community, despite the many issues that we often discuss, is fine.

Did i just heard someone using microagression?!

@up
Overwatch is a toxic swamp not a friendly game.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

I know that, but this thread was clearly made because of those parser threads.

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No i did not make the thread about parse, i made it to ask people if like me,it feels like whenever you do a comment about someone,people just run away and shout that they have been harassed.

I will quote myself

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Originally Posted by Gleipni

Tell me if im the only feeling that way,that people now make too much fuss about what people tell them.

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next time i will take screenshot,but it happened to me so many times
"hey,did you come up with this rotation or did you get it somewhere ?"
"Shut up i will report you for harasing me with your parse"

I think people should stop to play,go in park (with those temperature lately i know its hard ) and just chill,take some deep breat,how can you connect in a MMO,to play with people,if you just explose everytime someone ask you something ?

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Originally Posted by Driavna

But he was right, at 50 the only combo for paladins is the enmity one, there is no need for tank stance at all (BTW, this is why paladins always MT for 50 or under content). The OT just needed to use Shirk and both can stay in DPS stance the whole fight.

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Exactly this. I always pulled bosses in Sword Oath on 50 level content (dungeon bosses, trial bosses). We only have the emnity combo available so keepin aggro is very easy. WARs have to alternate between aggro and non-aggro combo, so they are generating less emnity. Same with DRK, which DPS rotation is about not using emnity combos. PLD is the best tank for level 50 content.

However, if you bring the shirk usage into that content, people will probably say something like "omg this is not raid content", "just get into tank stance, lololol" (While you see the healers sitting there watching Netflix instead of dpsing), "omg I play for funnn!" stuff. -.-

@OP: That's the reason why I quit giving advice or explaining things. Unless they ask for advice or they are doing it extremely bad, I'll remain silent and bite the bullet. People will always react by being silent or getting offended, or pulling the "this is not raid content"/"you don't pay my sub" when the advice is given.

It goes both ways. there are players who are oversensative and take criticism no matter how it is delivered as an personal attack against them. Then you have those that think insulting others is a nice way to motivate others and since they are oke with receiving feedback in a such manner, they assume that it should be fine for others aswell.

People need to remember that behind the characters are real people and not everyone can handle what you can handle or accepts certain things in the same way as you do.

Can thank the wishy-washy approach to parsing by the devs for that.

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Originally Posted by Laerune

It goes both ways. there are players who are oversensative and take criticism no matter how it is delivered as an personal attack against them. Then you have those that think insulting others is a nice way to motivate others and since they are oke with receiving feedback in a such manner, they assume that it should be fine for others aswell.

People need to remember that behind the characters are real people and not everyone can handle what you can handle or accepts certain things in the same way as you do.

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yup, like this:

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Originally Posted by Gleipni

next time i will take screenshot,but it happened to me so many times
"hey,did you come up with this rotation or did you get it somewhere ?"
"Shut up i will report you for harasing me with your parse"

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Originally Posted by Gleipni

next time i will take screenshot,but it happened to me so many times
"hey,did you come up with this rotation or did you get it somewhere ?"
"Shut up i will report you for harasing me with your parse"

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Response - Please! Do so! I'll be more than happy to explain this to the GM!

I did that once to someone...they went deathly quiet. :)

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

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Ah. My mistake. I read that sentence wrong.
Still, I would argue that, given it was a leveling dungeon, Kinazu really didn't deserve what he got. I remember lvling arcanist (and, once or twice as a tank) and ending up getting aggro on an add or two that I dotted that the tank wasn't hitting, only to be told to take it easy, cause it was hard on the tank to keep aggro on all those adds. I guess I COULD have blamed him/her, but later on, I leveled PLD, and found that, in those early lvls, it IS that hard to keep hate. That was long ago, tho. I'm long past knowing or caring to know the meta, now.

As for the Job, yeah, I get that, but I've seen some times where, when ppl make this bad habit, they assume that the person has most of the skillset and experience of the job, when they aren't even the job at all. Maybe troll was the wrong word, but that guy came on awfully strong to Kinazu for a simple mistake like that.