An Alternative? to parsers..

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

At best, I am above average when it comes to how I'm doing with my DPS classes in the current Savage tier. I don't want to be perfect, nor am I trying to be perfect - however, I do aim to be better than 'trash noob' or 'bottom DPS' that I've been called before. I just get motivation from criticism to do better than before. And considering I'm approaching one year since entering FFXIV, I think that's really the best advice that anybody who has received criticism over their numbers/rotations can do - get better. Figure out what is wrong and work on what could be the problem - if it has merit, of course. Not all criticisms are valid.

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Geez i am glad i was never called that. I hope your determination keeps well! Savage content is super fun! Get that sky noodle!

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Originally Posted by Alma_karma

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I understand your point, but don't take it to the extreme. It's not about being an Ace at your job. Knowing the mechanics is one part, but knowing how to play your class effectively is the second one. No one here is expecting perfect play, either. Guides, videos, other players are there for you to improve. People also have standards. Like Cass said above, if there is someone holding them back, then you're ruining their fun. Is that fair? I'd say no.

That's why you, in this scenario, have to either: Look for a group that fits your vision of the game or make your own group stating the rules from the begining. Laid back run? As long as we clear? No salt? Go for it. No one is going to say anything. You'll get players that allign themselves with the way you play the game. This is because not everyone is like that one example you gave before. When pairing yourself up with the right kind of players, even with a grade system functioning, no one will care about it. The grade system wouldn't force you either, it just shows you where you're at. You can either go further or stay there, because either with it or without it, there is where you're at anyway. People that actually care for these factors will have a parser running and will most likely kick you anyway. Nothing changes. As much as it sucks when that happens, I'll refer myself to what I mentioned before: Gather like-minded individuals.

Also, games nowdays still have the ranking function. Other games have a "star" grade, giving you none to 5 stars based on your performance. It's an ongoing system for many, many, many mobile games which is a huge gaming market nowdays.

I'd help you out with Cass since we're on the same datacenter, but I don't have much time to play lately. x.x (From work I can use the forums np)

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

good advices

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I do understand that I was holding them back during their bird farming which is why I would join learning parties instead of skip-soar parties. This game does a pretty lousy job at telling you what rotation is and how to properly meld. I learned from an fc mate and did improve. I might still not be top tier DPS but at least I'm not holding anyone back now. Im on ps4 so parsing isn't an option. Ty for the option of advice
as well.

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Originally Posted by Alma_karma

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You could try asking a trusted mate to parse you as well. During my last parsed run on RDM, I had used FFLOGs to figure out what one of the top RDMs on FFLOGs had done for his rotation, and I went with that. At the very least, with getting a parse, you can set a benchmark for yourself and start working to achieve an optimization that works well for your playstyle as well as being able to contribute higher damage numbers.

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Originally Posted by Zeonx

Yes I haven't got there yet but I remember the other dungeon raids and when it got bad I left because fighting results in not finishing the fight.

I am saying on a larger scale if a Parser was allowed then everyone who wanted it would be using it so each dungeon would have higher results of someone picking a fight over what they think is wrong and they could be party with a friend and because they kick other dude the friend leaves killing the dungeon and I don't know about you, I ain't flagging up again for 20-30 minute dungeons or waiting for replacements cause sometimes they never show up.

Bad enough you have to wait in a line and this would probably draw a huge line for me.

I could choose tank but I like to DPS.

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Wait, something just dawned on me about this post.

Do you not use the PF for 8-mans? You mentioned a queue...do you do all of your 8-mans (I see your level, so I don't think you've made it to The Royal Menagerie) through the Duty Finder?

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Originally Posted by Lilseph

ratings

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it was annoying for them im sure. Though I had been joining those laid back no salt runs. It was multiple runs i was told to git gud or git kicked by different people. I could care less about my ranking. I try not to impeed anyone now. I know my rotation, i use food, i meld my gear. I know now. But I know if I had been graded back when I first started I probably wouldn't have lasted very long. How can you grade on an MMO where it doesn't explain the basics of rotation. Just reading the tooltips isn't enough to figure out but a rotation is and how too use it properly. Especially if this is your first mmo and your asking on the novice network on how to improve. Git gud or git rekt right? Haha

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Originally Posted by Tridus

Who is going to figure out what the threshold for these grades is, and how are they going to determine what it should be? You see wide fluctuations in expected DPS on different fights due to the mechanics of that fight and group composition (a SAM paired with BRD and AST is going to look a lot better than the same one pared with BLM and WHM on any DPS measurement scale). SE having to assign someone to come up with grading criteria for every new piece of content they add, without having large quantities of sample points to work with because it's new content.

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This isn't actually much of a problem and the majority of the work can be avoided with a few tweaks to the proposition IMHO.

First off, the easiest approach to working about basic threshold values has already been done by logs. You just work out a series of averages from your big table of results and go from there, there's really no need to have an internal team do this (Beyond maybe throwing the QA team's score into the pot so the players can get scored from day one), once the code's in place, it'll do the maths itself. As the game evolves, so will the results.

Secondly, avoiding issues with party comp disparities is doable but it's not perfect. Going by potency per second takes much of the RNG away and also levels the playing field somewhat through ignoring party buffs and such. That still leaves jobs that might impact their own rotation to maintain a buff for others as well as jobs where some of their potency rests on RNG (eg bloodletter procs).

As long as the ranks were reasonably lenient I don't think these details would be impactful enough to actually prevent a decent player from scoring in a manner that they should. And let's face it, SE aren't going to implement something like this in casual content whilst expecting people to perform at a 99% percentile.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

Fundamentally, the content itself needs to give you the risk of failure in order to address this problem. I'd much rather see them introduce enrage timers in Doma Castle or even earlier, instead of letting people get by until it suddenly slaps them in the face at endgame.

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Yeah agreed, I've said it so many times, but at the risk of sounding like a stuck record, Amdapor Keep was a fantastic dungeon because it did such a good job of preparing people for the end game.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

FFLOGS

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I'll have to look into that for future reference. Ty

How does the game determine whether the tank turned the boss towards the group and the melee got cleaved, or the dps ran in front of the boss to get cleaved? Whose rank goes down? How does the ranking system take into account tanks who move the mobs out of AoE or constantly spin the boss?

Does the tank get a lower rating if he goes in dps stance? If not, then how is a tank penalized in the ranking system if he focuses so much on dps that he doesn't hold aggro and other people start to take damage? Will dps be penalized for not using enmity reduction skills?

Effective healing is the same as party damage taken if you don't take into account self heals and passive regeneration. Is it fair that a healer gets a lower ranking if there is less to heal in a good party where stuns are used and mobs die faster? I think not. And who gets penalized if someone dies? Sometimes it's the healer's fault but sometimes it isn't.

Does the system recognize and reward the dps when they focus down priority targets (like bees) instead of padding the meter with AoE dps?

Are people going to be rewarded when they interact with objects to advance the fight and lose dps in the process?

If all of this is not taken into account, then we will have people getting annoyed not only for having slow runs sometimes but also getting their grade ruined by their party members. I'm still not convinced that a ranking system will ever be accurate in this game. They could implement it for fun I guess, but I wouldn't want any cosmetic rewards to come from it.

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Originally Posted by Alma_karma

I'll have to look into that for future reference. Ty

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I hope you don't mind, but I looked at your current numbers that were uploaded. From what I've seen, you've done some really nice improvement compared to your first log. I'd have to say the latest that you are at on O2S should be your baseline, and if you ever want to push for further optimization, go for it.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

numbers

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Yeaahh it does help your dps when you aren't on the floor haha. Im not in a raiding static and we tend to go with friends and fc mates so i haven't needed perfection :D as content gets harder ill definately need to consult some more rotation guides.

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Originally Posted by Alma_karma

Yeaahh it does help your dps when you aren't on the floor haha. Im not in a raiding static and we tend to go with friends and fc mates so i haven't needed perfection :D as content gets harder ill definately need to consult some more rotation guides.

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I think I'm running out of daily posts, so this'll prob be my last for the day lol. If it helps, try practicing keeping up Higanbana at all times. I personally go with starting off a fight with a Higanbana combo, then Meikyo Shisui to get off a quick Midare Setsugekka. But it has been a while, so I dunno how that opener compares to others, but it's what I've used.

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Originally Posted by Alma_karma

I do understand that I was holding them back during their bird farming which is why I would join learning parties instead of skip-soar parties. This game does a pretty lousy job at telling you what rotation is and how to properly meld. I learned from an fc mate and did improve. I might still not be top tier DPS but at least I'm not holding anyone back now. Im on ps4 so parsing isn't an option. Ty for the option of advice
as well.

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Unfortunately, it does. That lack of information I feel contributes far more to the "bad" players than people realize. And it's why I believe the positives of parsers would outweigh the negatives long term. A good source for job information is The Balance discord. They have channels set up and pinned messages listing everything from in-depth rotation guides to melds and BiS. If needed, I can offer my SAM rotation since I mained it half this tier.

There isn't any alternative as long there is player greed/selfishness or peer pressure. The abuse comes from losing/getting rewards, including grades itself is a reward. When you see potd ranking, you also compare how much damage others do on the same floor. It doesn't take much for sponsors to do such competition whether using numbers, grades or even sorting by your name. Funny thing about rank/grades, my ig spouse was frustrated that she always come at bottom in the pvp ladder, I had to explain it's sorted by name by default. The neutral thing to do is to have practice runs with no rewards, this should be a thing. Time itself is a good measuring. Practice mode in Raid Finder currently only separates people who already get or haven't get their weekly loot.

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Originally Posted by Gelesto

I see lots of posts about parsers for and against, the good arguements for having them being personal improvement and to see that you are getting better, with the best arguement against them is for abuse and exclusion from content if you don't meet someones ideals.

My idea - Grades

During the course of a duty damage done, damage taken and effective healing (not overhealing) will be calcualted awarding you with a grade at the end C, B, A and S.

Now depending on your job these values will differ for example a MCH will not be weighed as heavily for damage to say a BLM or SAM each is taylored to the job much like the savage dummy challenges

For healing as stated above effecdtive healing (damage absorbed by shields also would count towards this) meaning no overheals would increase your "score"

Taking damage is never a great thing but it is the role of the tank do such so taking damage as a tank will have a reduced effect on the score listings comprared to healers and dps, encouraging people to use those cooldowns to boost that "score"

So during the course of a dungeon you will generate invisible points for your contribution to the group and after the duty complete message you will recieve your grade card showing you what rank you got ( varies on job and duty naturally) showing people where they have room to improve ranks A, B and C or knowing you did well with a rank S, your grade is only viewable by yourself to stop abuse if you didnt meet certain expectations.

Perhaps include a rewards system to help enforce the idea that if your playing with people especially strangers that doing your best is best for all. C 1 point, B 2 points A 3 points with S granting 5 points possibly to spend on glamour items, minions, mounts, untradable consumables, titles etc

Any thoughts? Additions? would like to know what you all think, could it work or is it just another shower thought.

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Shower thought.

This isn't kindergarten, we don't need stickers telling us all how good we did.

The point of the parser is to give you the cold hard data so you know what happened. Giving everyone participation trophies with these rankings only serves epeen stroking.

This also does ziltch for theroycrafting purposes.

As heavily opposed as I am to parsers, I think a rank system is a far better idea since it can be tweaked from job to job, it can be altered based on role performance, and devs can keep the data hidden while still being able to provide tips for each role or job to get higher ranks for content.

I would also wager that unless there's some sort of modification to SSS that includes simplified versions of mechanics, this is probably the closest we'd get from SE for any means of gauging performance.

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Originally Posted by Gleipni

it does not make any sense,When will people understand,in the end game,you need to play good,there is no "but im just here for fun i dont care of the rest" or "suck i pay it so i play as i want",you need a parser to know if you're doing good or bad,the end,why does people find it so revolting to asses if someone is good or bad ?

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Play good? What does that mean truly. Last time I checked for most endgame content you have about 12-13 minutes to kill whatever is is you are fighting weather you take 13 minutes or 9 minutes doesn't really matter. So I'll ask again what does play good mean?

Let me answer that for you: Its different for everyone, and no ones answer actually matters as long as its within the enrage timer of a particular fight.

question to everyone else Why are you all so hellbent on wanting a parser? It can't just be for self improvement. As it stands now if you've read a guide and are doing your rotation correctly and using all your ogcds on cooldown your doing fine for every single piece of content in this game. The only improvement from there is better aligning things within the context of a fight just for the sake of killing it a little faster which is the entire reason for FFlogs existing.

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

Shower thought.

This isn't kindergarten, we don't need stickers telling us all how good we did.

The point of the parser is to give you the cold hard data so you know what happened. Giving everyone participation trophies with these rankings only serves epeen stroking.

This also does ziltch for theroycrafting purposes.

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This is an alternative idea to parsers, top raiders and the like will ofcourse still want/use parsers but for the general populace it can serve the same idea and keeps it in line with SE's way of doing things to help with inclusion and help those that underperform strive for that higher rank

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

Shower thought.

This isn't kindergarten, we don't need stickers telling us all how good we did.

The point of the parser is to give you the cold hard data so you know what happened. Giving everyone participation trophies with these rankings only serves epeen stroking.

This also does ziltch for theroycrafting purposes.

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Damn right,stop treating people like special snowflake,and let them face the reality of numbers.

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Originally Posted by Gelesto

This is an alternative idea to parsers, top raiders and the like will ofcourse still want/use parsers but for the general populace it can serve the same idea and keeps it in line with SE's way of doing things to help with inclusion and help those that underperform strive for that higher rank

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Again what is under preforming? and not just in the extreme cases like the blm only using ice spells the entire dungeon. How do you look at a dps and say that guy right there is under preforming?

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

Again what is under preforming? and not just in the extreme cases like the blm only using ice spells the entire dungeon. How do you look at a dps and say that guy right there is under preforming?

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one of the easiest way to see people performance is the tiem you take in dungeon,with a great group,last dungeon take 12/13min to do,with a good group 20min and when people are "underperforming" it take 25/30min,i can see already "oh for 5 min dont complain"
now to the calculus 12/13 spend more in dungeon,everyday just for expert roulette for 1 month,you already have 360 min(6hour) in the month you spend more in dungeon,now,imagine ALL roulette everyday for 1 month,and you will understand why some people try to rush like crazy in it,because for me,sparing 10/15 hour of playtime doing something else than brainless dungeon, is a lot of comfort.

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Originally Posted by Gleipni

one of the easiest way to see people performance is the tiem you take in dungeon,with a great group,last dungeon take 12/13min to do,with a good group 20min and when people are "underperforming" it take 25/30min,i can see already "oh for 5 min dont complain"

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how do you know that is under preforming and not just a gear issue. by in large most of my dungeons take 12/13 minutes and i've been playing the game for 3 years and i nearly pug every single one when they take longer its generally because we have new players first timers or someone had to go afk.

oh and where are you getting the 12-13 minute mark as a good dungeon run from. I'm trying to get you all to see something here.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

how do you know that is under preforming and not just a gear issue.

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Because I've witness plenty of times where ive done more as 320 vs 340.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

Because I've witness plenty of times where ive done more as 320 vs 340.

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And? Did you still clear the dungeon do the you remember the specifics?

The point I'm making is that your, standards my standards and that guy lurking this posts standards don't matter.

And lets stop being cute shall we no one cares about dungeons people parse in them just to make fun of other people or to justify that DF sucks yet I've not seen a single dungeon log uploaded to fflogs as long as your doing your rotation correctly in savage and extreme trials even ultimate you'll be fine and the only reason one would need a parser is if they are looking to optimize to improve their kill time and that's really the only place that it applies. and before anyone says it helps point out flaws in dps for progression unless your group is preforming all of the mechanics flawlessly and no one dies and you still hit the hard enrage then its a dps issue

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

And? Did you still clear the dungeon do the you remember the specifics?

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I'd argue that clearing the dungeon is a pretty damn low standard to set. At this point I just accept that I'm most likely going to out dps almost any df dps I get in a dungeon queue, and more often than not I'm right. Why is that ok?

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Originally Posted by Hruodig

I'd argue that clearing the dungeon is a pretty damn low standard to set. At this point I just accept that I'm most likely going to out dps almost any df dps I get in a dungeon queue, and more often than not I'm right. Why is that ok?

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unbiased reason: Your still clearing the dungeon because you took 5 to 10 minutes longer doing it or that your a tank that knows your role up against either lazy dps that aren't doing everything they can is irrelevant.

Biased reason: Its not but hey not everyone is gonna play up to your standards so you have two choices either stop using the DF and go with people who do meet your standards or the second choice stop whining on an online forum about people who don't care to or even know that they aren't playing at their classes full capabilities. there is no third option.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

unbiased reason: Your still clearing the dungeon because you took 5 to 10 minutes longer doing it or that your a tank that knows your role up against either lazy dps that aren't doing everything they can is irrelevant.

Biased reason: Its not but hey not everyone is gonna play up to your standards so you have two choices either stop using the DF and go with people who do meet your standards or the second choice stop whining on an online forum about people who don't care to or even know that they aren't playing at their classes full capabilities. there is no third option.

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I generally only go with pre mades if I can, and so do the majority of good tanks that I know. Fun fact: There's actually a good bit of tanks out there, but most of us only do content with pre mades because we know that df is a trap. Z-dps healers, dps who don't aoe, dps who can't out dps us. Why bother? If quality of df was higher then I wouldn't be as apprehensive to go with randoms, but god forbid we try to implement things to help the playerbase improve.

Well I have an alternative to talking about parser: Don't.

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Originally Posted by Hruodig

I'd argue that clearing the dungeon is a pretty damn low standard to set. At this point I just accept that I'm most likely going to out dps almost any df dps I get in a dungeon queue, and more often than not I'm right. Why is that ok?

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The game standard is set in the time limit to clear, there is no misunderstanding about that. Is it low? Yes. Does it need to be lowered to 10-15 mins? Same argument people have about frontline/rw 20 mins time, you only lose when you give up and I've seen plenty of losers who vote abandon on 1st wipe. You win when you try, not when you carry people.

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Originally Posted by Hruodig

I generally only go with pre mades if I can, and so do the majority of good tanks that I know. Fun fact: There's actually a good bit of tanks out there, but most of us only do content with pre mades because we know that df is a trap. Z-dps healers, dps who don't aoe, dps who can't out dps us. Why bother? If quality of df was higher then I wouldn't be as apprehensive to go with randoms, but god forbid we try to implement things to help the playerbase improve.

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Just that the thing your talking about in no way helps anyone doing dungeon content and only helps other content if your looking to speed run. Yet none of you are talking about rotation guides in game explaining how DoTs work and why they are vital they are or otehr key gameplay mechanics that newer players and people new to mmos general won't know. I can't think of another game genre where you have to use goggle to find out how to play it properly. Yet I see no threads about this.

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Originally Posted by Gelesto

This is an alternative idea to parsers, top raiders and the like will ofcourse still want/use parsers but for the general populace it can serve the same idea and keeps it in line with SE's way of doing things to help with inclusion and help those that underperform strive for that higher rank

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It really doesn't though. Without seeing the actual numbers you don't really know why your rank is different between runs nor will you see any improvement or degradation if you keep hitting s rank in your example with changing gear or melds.

All this idea accomplishes is epeen stroking with participation trophies handed out at the end.

This causes everything to be linked to DPS in a way I don't really care for. A tank would get a lower score the more damage they take, correct? Doesn't that mean that the tanks score is directly linked to the performance of the DPS? Same goes with healing done. I'm assuming that healing done would rank higher the more you do, so if a healer has to heal less because the DPS is really good, or the tank is good with CDs, or what have you then the ranking would say "healer need a to heal better" basically?

I understand what you are going for but this sort of ranking system is pretty much just "your ranks depend on how well the DPS do".

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

Just that the thing your talking about in no way helps anyone doing dungeon content and only helps other content if your looking to speed run. Yet none of you are talking about rotation guides in game explaining how DoTs work and why they are vital they are or otehr key gameplay mechanics that newer players and people new to mmos general won't know. I can't think of another game genre where you have to use goggle to find out how to play it properly. Yet I see no threads about this.

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I would be down for all of the above. I don't think I'd necessarily want a ranking system though, a personal parser with detailed battle info available would be ok.

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

You're not gonna find any. Anyone who uses a parser is aware of the "don't ask, don't tell" policy so no one's going to hang themselves out to dry by announcing it in a pug setting. By that same turn, that's also why someone gets silently kicked or the party disbands and the bad player can't return to the party via blacklist. That's where the claims come from. They can't prove with hard evidence that they got kicked because of bad parse. They can only strongly guess that's the reason but this begs the question: if you got kicked without any jeer whatsoever, why call it harassment?

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It's a similar situation to getting fired IRL in some places. By law they can fire you 'for any reason' as per your contract, yet they still need a reason to fire you, and there's certain reasons that, even with a contract, they CANNOT fire you over, such as your race/religion/other protected status. So if one day you get up and fired without a word, and upon investigation it appears to be some minor infraction, the proof is on the fired to explain if they were fired for an illegal reason.

Fortunately and unfortunately this is near impossible to do. If there was wrong doing it's unfortunate, but if there was none on the employers part, then it protects them from the fired's attempts and legal response.

Unfortunately for all of us, this sort of situation just BREEDS fear mongering and paranoia. Any situation where the information is unknown is ripe for that sort of mentality and social grooming.

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Originally Posted by Hruodig

I would be down for all of the above. I don't think I'd necessarily want a ranking system though, a personal parser with detailed battle info available would be ok.

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Then we should be making thread after thread about that. instead its "gimme parser" like that is going to help anything. it will only help ps4 players see their number without any context and without context people will simply use it as a epeen measuring stick.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

Then we should be making thread after thread about that. instead its "gimme parser" like that is going to help anything. it will only help ps4 players see their number without any context and without context people will simply use it as a epeen measuring stick.

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Parsers would help people understand when they're doing better vs doing worse. See the number go up? Better. Lower? Worse. Lots of people simply don't know what kind of damage they're doing, and since it's so easy to get carried through content, they never think they have to improve. Parsers would help those people.

After reading all the people's opinion here, I think the best is just to have a parser. It accomplishes the same goal but with more details. Ultimately, they can remove the feature if it backfires, like they told us they were going to do with the skill reset in raid content and the bard's performance.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

Then we should be making thread after thread about that. instead its "gimme parser" like that is going to help anything. it will only help ps4 players see their number without any context and without context people will simply use it as a epeen measuring stick.

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So? Who isn't proud of their performance? Were you a victim of people with ACT by any chance? Let them be happy with their numbers. People will actually benefit from having a way to measure their performance. If they don't care, they can ignore it, but the feature is there.

A grade system with rewards attached to "being good" is not good design for a cooperative game.

You should not reward "good players" from "playing normally" or push players into "playing better" for the sake of a cookie. If we win, we all win together. If we lose, we all lose together. This is what a team means. Any team will have stronger and weaker players. That does not make it any less your team. As a player, you can either deal with your team or give up and find another team that better suits your style. A grading or ranking system will encourage players to put their needs (their grade) above the team (success of the mission). If the reward is meaningful, when a player knows he will get a bad grade due to the team, why continue? Why risk losing the good grade to help a player in need? Damage dealers have long queues, so they are less likely to give up too quickly, but a tank or a healer?

There is one real underlying issue going on, but it is not what the majority thinks. A player should never think about enforcing his playstyle upon other players. The real question is, why does it matter? If we go purely on a numerical damage output value and assume that every player are able to fulfill all the mechanics. Assuming that everyone has the adequate gear for the challenge. Assuming that encounters are failed due to a lack of damage output. Let say that one player doing bellow the needed damage is enough to make those encounters fail.

We have established that this player knows mechanics, has the proper gear, but still cannot provide the necessary damage to overcome the challenge. A grade system will reveal that this player is not good enough. A parser will reveal that this player does not match the numbers of the other players. Neither of which will allow the player to improve. Repeatedly saying: "you are bad" to a player will not magically transform this player into a good player. All it tells the player is that his or her playstyle is inappropriate.

This is a symptom of a bigger problem. Why is the gap between a "bad" player and a "good" player so large? There is a very simple solution to this damage output problem. It is to give each job an easy and effective pattern of attack that will do enough damage to meet those damage checks. Think repeatedly pressing 1-2-3. Make this pattern do 70% of the maximum damage of the job. Using the complete toolkit properly will make you go above 70% or lower if you screw up. The better you are, the closer to 100% you can reach. This is a design choice used in many competitive games (fighting). There are move sets that are intended for novice players, which can give them victories just by button mashing. This stops working at higher level, because advanced players are able to counter those obvious moves. Even if they are capable of countering the moves, they remain affected and if those advanced players lazy out on the fight, they can bite the dust. Once you start improving and get a better understanding of the game, you move on to the advanced move sets, but until you master them, you are vulnerable to the button mashing techniques.

Button mashing, or in a MMORPG, only pressing 1-2-3 is a boring strategy. For some players, that is all they want and they will be satisfied with that. Others will want to do the advanced techniques. It is actually much easier to ease players into playing their job properly if they have a safety net. If they are unable to use the complex abilities and their damage output starts dropping low, all they need is to go back to focus on 1-2-3 (or be advised to do so). Because this 1-2-3 will inevitably part of their rotation, their damage output will only be so low. Let say the worse they can do if they really try and fail is 50%. This would make them, at worst, only at most half the damage output of the best damage dealer of the party. This also means you only have 20% missing damage to compensate on the other 3 damage dealers.

All you need is an easy way for any given job to perform enough damage to meet the DPS checks, and all that is left are mechanics and gear. The greatest strength of that system is that a player can adjust on the fly to use the easy rotation. This means that you can effectively transform a player that is a burden into a player capable of carrying its weight mid-fight. No grading or parsing system in the world can achieve this. Ever.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

snip.

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Over exaggeration and anecdotes based on heresay that people like to constitute as facts. That's all it is. People can't prove it because it isn't happening to the degree that they claim it is.


They get off on making baseless claims and anecdotal evidence into facts, saying things like "The game will implode with toxicity like the bubonic plague and destroy all we hold dear" if SE releases official parsers.


It's hard to take anything people that are antu-parser seriously anymore.

The issue with this system is overhearing contact tosses it out.
Better...
Local data collection, with a c,b,a,s score based on.
Calc on bosses only as fights are longer

Dps thing to take into data collection
Amount of proper rotation done
time global cool down timer up but no action happening
Dmg taken,
Aoe avoided

Tank
Dmg mitigated
Dmg taken
Aoe avoid
Time spent with hate in yellow zone ie more closely missing hate mean tank dosing more.
(Only time I miss hate on a boss is when I am in dps stance pushing my numbers higher so staying in yellow means you keeping hate but dps good too, yes I know this could be cheesed)

Healers
Aoe avoid
Dmg dealt
Dmg mitigated
over cure


But just base dps numbers do not work because of overhearing
Or in cases of tanks using STR crafted gear vs being 340