4.2 Updates from Q&A with Yoshida

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

And people hated pharos sirius and left it en masse whenever it popped up, if I recall. the same people who talk about raids being too easy will complain about how people can't even do a basic farm party. What do you think happens when you suddenly raise the difficulty then? If expert got harder, it wouldn't be more fun for you, because anything in this game is only a challenge once; after that its a nuisance.

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Most people I know absolutely loathe doing roulettes and literally only do them because they're the most efficient way to cap their weekly tomes. If harder dungeons were introduced with a compelling incentive I have no doubt that they would be successful. One thing that could be done is encouraging bosses to be killed in a specific way for achievements - which is one of the few things I miss about WoW. Once every dungeon achievement is completed that player can walk away with a prestigious mount, minion or title.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

because people like you whined and moved en masse to gilgamesh because you couldn't handle it being harder. You're assuming the lot of you could even deal with raised difficulty; you couldn't with gordias, nor with midas, and if they increased it, you'd not be able to deal with it again. Challenge, hell. People here complaining about it being easy when hard literally killed the raid scene and took not just easing savage difficulty down with the last tier of HW, it took a big streamlining of the entire pve rotation too.

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Excuse you. Do you know me? Considering I only started playing several months after Gordias released, it's no wonder a level 13 Monk couldn't handle it. I didn't start raiding until Creator. And yes, I sucked back then. You wanna know what I did, I put in the effort to improve and now am progging Ultimate; content harder than Gordias or Midas. It's almost like if you have a willingness to improve, you will. Funny now that works. Creator had a higher clear rate than Neo. You know, before they implemented all the rotation streamlining. So... that wasn't why they did it. I also like how you immediately jump to the only tier where the devs outright acknowledged they didn't test it properly. Even people who cleared Gordias agreed, it wasn't well balanced. That doesn't mean they can shoot for an in-between surrounding Creator and Midas.

I've also never been on Gilgamesh, by the way.

So you didn't just swing and miss with this post. The bat slipped entirely from your grasp. Such in the danger with those baseless assumptions...

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

the ps4 isn't that powerful, they were just able to optimize for it, i'm not really surprised they think it has issues, especially since, in the CPU department, the PS3 was stronger.

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No, it's not. People love to say mythical things about the PS3 CPU, but the PS4 crushes it at everything except very specialized tasks for lower cost. Why do you think Sony threw out the PS3's cell architecture entirely with the PS4 instead of iterating on it (and for that matter, why do you think IBM abandoned it)?

Answer: Ask any developer who had to work on it about how great it really was and get ready for them to rant.

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Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

Paraphrasing: Consoles being limited, but PCs easy to upgrade

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Not all PCs are easy to upgrade. There's desktops that are locked down tight and can't be upgraded, due to soldering in of the parts. I know Macs do it for example (I think there's a couple of Windows machines that do it too but don't quote me on that). Plus, most laptops aren't a simple upgrade either, you have to once again buy an entire new PC, and that isn't done for next to nothing. So, by the same token, PCs are limitations too. And yes, both my desktop and laptop are capable of playing it quite comfortably without a limiting experience (both have i7, desktop has 16GB RAM + GTX 760, laptop has 8GB RAM and GTX 960m), but let's be fair PCs can be just as limiting. My laptop for example, it's a sealed off unit, most things soldered in.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

And people hated pharos sirius and left it en masse whenever it popped up, if I recall. the same people who talk about raids being too easy will complain about how people can't even do a basic farm party. What do you think happens when you suddenly raise the difficulty then? If expert got harder, it wouldn't be more fun for you, because anything in this game is only a challenge once; after that its a nuisance.

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Alright, let's rip the bandage off: people hated and left it because they couldn't handle it. Just like Aurum Vale. And Steps of Faith. And Weeping City. And Rabanastre. All content notorious for being remotely challenging, if not simply punishing for carelessness. People have become too used to faceroll content, and if it can't be facerolled or outgeared, they avoid it like an allergy. It literally takes SE either dumbing it down repeatedly or packing it with rewards to get people to do it. And it hurts inside to remember there were petitions to NOT nerf Weeping City or Shinryu. Normal Shinryu.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

It's almost like if you have a willingness to improve, you will. Funny now that works.

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I don't know how to describe this wonderful feeling you've given me by saying this. Definitely made me smile for the first time today.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Most people I know absolutely loathe doing roulettes and literally only do them because they're the most efficient way to cap their weekly tomes. If harder dungeons were introduced with a compelling incentive I have no doubt that they would be successful. One thing that could be done is encouraging bosses to be killed in a specific way for achievements - which is one of the few things I miss about WoW. Once every dungeon achievement is completed that player can walk away with a prestigious mount, minion or title.

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This is basically me; I avoid doing any roulettes once I’ve capped because I consider the content to be stale.

Something I observed during an attempted Floor 200 PotD run was one of the mobs (Deep Palace Biloko), when it aggro’d onto the tank in the group who was already tanking one mob, the new Biloko actually casted and applied Stoneskin onto the other mob. I thought that was a very interesting mechanic. Add something like priority mobs to dungeons that buff the other mobs or heal them, and that could make the expert dungeons more interesting (I’ve noticed that the developers have done away with the mobs that would heal other mobs, like some of the conjurers in solo-instances that you needed to prioritize killing first so that they didn’t spam heal the others). Give us more threatening mobs like the Deep Palace Chimeras where you need to stun/silence their Ram’s Voice/Dragon’s Voice to avoid damage that actually hurts (and not just a DoT or Paralysis debuff that are more of an annoyance than anything else); that would also make BRD/MCH role skills more useful since there would actually be a need for a stun or silence in place of, say, Second Wind.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

I don't think this works. If it were farm party ex primal difficulty, it would end up taking longer and being more frustrating to do. And you'd end up with the same result, it would be just as tedious in the same way farm parties are just as tedious despite it being harder content. Its just people forgive them more since they give mounts and bis, and don't have to be done every week. I'd be willing to bet that a lot of people would just stick with the easy dungeons.

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Why do people always jump to “Savage-level difficulty dungeons” whenever anyone suggests to make them slightly harder? No one has ever suggested dungeons be on a Savage-level. They just want them to not be something you can semi-AFK in the middle of and still clear.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Most people I know absolutely loathe doing roulettes and literally only do them because they're the most efficient way to cap their weekly tomes. If harder dungeons were introduced with a compelling incentive I have no doubt that they would be successful.

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I don't think this works. If it were farm party ex primal difficulty, it would end up taking longer and being more frustrating to do. And you'd end up with the same result, it would be just as tedious in the same way farm parties are just as tedious despite it being harder content. Its just people forgive them more since they give mounts and bis, and don't have to be done every week. I'd be willing to bet that a lot of people would just stick with the easy dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

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First of all, if you are gaming on a mac, that is nothing but your own poor life choices.

A laptop is a different entity than a PC and of course is going to be limited because of what it is. But at the same time you do have the option, if you have the money, to buy a new or better one.

That was my point. PCs are easy to upgrade, either with changing out some cheap components or being able to buy a new one. But no amount of money or changing of hardware is going to get you a new and better console until Sony or Microsoft decide to release a new one. Hence you are limited

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

I don't think it's so much wanting to stroke their own egos but exactly what Bourne said. Remember when "Expert" roulette was a challenge? Pharos Sirius does. Remember Second Coil? Remember Crystal Tower? Sure, they were a headache back in their respective times, but not only were they fun, they were fun because they were a challenge. However comma for anyone who's been around for a while, well, even someone who hasn't, steadily watching the bar get lower isn't enjoyable. At this point, I almost feel punished for pushing myself to be good at the game. I'm not the best, and sure there's far better players, but at some point it really starts to feel like there's no point in being good when you can just sit and wait for the handout or the bar to be lowered.

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Couldn't have summarized it better. What I find irksome is how whenever you claim something too easy, someone inevitably rushes to mention Gordias. One of my all time favourite instances in this game is Weeping City. Nowhere near Savage level difficulty but something that still posed a nice challenge. I am far from the best player myself, which is why I always advocate anyone can improve if I can. I started out as someone who once struggled with Sophia. I didn't just suddenly become better, I worked towards my goal and pushed myself—something anyone can do. It just sucks seeing your endeavors to improve are met with easing the content because someone else couldn't be bothered to put in effort.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

I don't know how to describe this wonderful feeling you've given me by saying this. Definitely made me smile for the first time today.

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Happy to oblige. :D

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Originally Posted by Tridus

No, it's not. People love to say mythical things about the PS3 CPU, but the PS4 crushes it at everything except very specialized tasks for lower cost. Why do you think Sony threw out the PS3's cell architecture entirely with the PS4 instead of iterating on it (and for that matter, why do you think IBM abandoned it)?

Answer: Ask any developer who had to work on it about how great it really was and get ready for them to rant.

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as a CPU, the Cell is superior. the GPU and memory is what held the PS3 back in modern applications.

There are still some ps3 games that look better than modern titles.

About the 33rd largest supercomputer in the world right now is the US Air Force Research Laboratory's (AFRL) newest system, which has a core made of 1,760 Sony PlayStation 3 (PS3) consoles (2010)

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Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

Hence you are limited

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While I can agree it is an owner's problem with a cheap PC/laptop (though by the way, most all-in-one desktop PCs, which seem to be gaining ground, which are still technically PCs as are laptops, are soldered in components), and you can upgrade to it, are most people going to upgrade over it? Doubtful. It's why it still provides some limitations by its very means of market forces. Now, SE can quite easily say to PS4 users and PCs with lower specs "We don't want your custom anymore until you get a beefy PC" (see FFXIV 1.0, from what I read, it had problems running out the wazoo). Business-wise, it causes limitations because you have to weigh up do you want to cut those people out of the loop, or try and work around their PCs. It's a limitation, albeit a more indirect limitation.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

And Steps of Faith.

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The problem with Steps of Faith was that people would get it and instaquit, which made it hard to get groups to complete, which turned into a MSQ block. They don't like MSQ blocks. Despite the complaints, Shinryu normal didn't get nerfed because people *didn't* abandon it en masse and, although a challenge for a lot of people, it didn't turn into a MSQ brick wall.

DF balancing is always tricky because the tipping point between "this is faceroll for organized people" and "groups of randoms will not have the coordination to do this at all" is pretty thin and somewhat blurry. So if it's content they expect random DF formed groups to be able to clear, there are limits on what they can do that don't exist in Savage and especially in Ultimate.

Added to that, lots of "casual" players are playing for the story and such. Those folks pay and don't complain on the forum a whole lot, but they want the whole story. That's why you don't have story gated behind high end duties anymore: those people would be unable to do it and would likely quit in response, which means lost revenue, which is bad for the budget, which is bad for everyone. Hence the model of all story content being in normal modes, and Ex/Savage/Ultimate being for players that want a greater challenge.

Is it perfect? Not at all. Expert Roulette is a freaking joke right now and it's become its own problem due to being so easy that it's not preparing anyone for what comes later. But I think the overall design methodology is sound given the constraint that the market places on them.

Well not only that but SE/Yoshida himself has clearly stated that they don't intend to make "daily" content tougher. Reasons being that for the players that have less time than others to play (this actually includes myself as of lately), they don't wish to impede them any more than necessary.

Reasonable, and I can't argue with that, as I understand it's a business decision as well as a QoL one. But we can't deny that the refusal to raise the bar (or rather the odd occasion that it is raised causing an uproar) is making for a rather, um, spongy community, no? Challenge is one thing, and there are times I kinda wanna take it easy too. But removing every pebble from the path to make sure no one stumbles really does more harm than good in the long run. The players I looked up to while a lowbie are all gone now, all bored with the way things turned. Don't even get me started on PVP. . .

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

as a CPU, the Cell is superior. the GPU and memory is what held the PS3 back in modern applications.

There are still some ps3 games that look better than modern titles.

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Again... no, it's not. On paper it's a great CPU. But it's design makes it very hard to actually bring all that power to bear. Getting all six SPEs in use at once was a really challenge in games when each one only has 256KB of RAM to work with and many game tasks don't parallelize well. That's why it did so well in HPC environments that can be paralleized extremely effeciently. (If a SPE had to go to main memory frequently it needed the main CPU to do that, which killed performance.) The Air Force loved PS3s because they could do a lot of heavy lifting with commodity parts, but the Air Force wasn't using a cluster of them to try and run a game.

Sony used to say in the early days "nobody has unlocked the full power of the PS3 yet!" as if that was a good thing. It was because the workloads didn't lend themselves to it, whereas PC and Xbox 360 CPUs could be slower by GFLOPS measurements but actually run games faster because they could keep more hardware active more often and all their CPUs could access main memory without needing to wait on another one.

That's one of several reasons why the PS4 looks a lot like a PC internally. Typical game workloads need faster single thread performance over being able to do a zillion parallel operations. That's also why Intel CPUs beat AMD CPUs at games despite how great Ryzen and Threadripper are at other tasks: FFXIV and stuff like Civ VI don't benefit from having 8 cores because they don't have enough parallel workload. They benefit tremendously from a few faster ones.

As for how something looks, that's largely down to artistic direction. A good art director can make a little look like a lot. But you couldn't make 4k HDR Horizon Zero Dawn on the PS3's CPU. You simply don't have the horses to do it.

The problem with Pharos was it was harder than the other dungeons added at the same time (Copperbell Hard Mode and Haukke Manor Hard Mode). So people would instantly leave it or not unlock it at all since they could get the same rewards with less effort (SE changed it so unlocking the roulette required unlocking all the dungeons in it after this).
Upping the difficulty of dungeons a bit could work but it would have to be consistent so all the current dungeons took about the same amount of effort and time to complete.

I'm somewhat surprised that the next Savage will be about the same difficulty as the current one. I thought an earlier interview said they were planning on ramping up slowly throughout Stormblood?

I'll just say I enjoyed the difficulty level of Deltascape and am happy to hear Sigmascape will be of a similar challenge.

It's funny how bad information is passed around by the "ps4 limitations" people when there are people running 32 bit computers and computers from 2010 and laptops. Yet ps4 is the limitation right? :)
Take a look in the mirror people (btw I play on pc). Upgrading isn't easy and some computers you just can't upgrade. A video card better than ps4's is around close to $300 and then when you consider a computer from 2010 maybe needs a better cpu then that's probably another $300. Yeah ps4 isn't the problem, let's first wait until people stop using 32bit computers (as Yoshida said) before we start blaming consoles.

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

What's this about?

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Probably people complaining about certain mounts like Alte Roite not having special music.

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Might also be to allow us to select our BGM while riding as some players have requested.

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Originally Posted by Lelila38

Which is complete bullshit. There are PCs, especially the older ones, that are far behind PS4. And noone ever says anything about them keeping the game back.

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Because we all know who owns an old PC must trash it and get one new. I'm today barely 30fps@720p and Rabanastre + anything underwater is now 15fps.

To me, today is already "get a new pc or goodbye new content" doomsday.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

Is it perfect? Not at all. Expert Roulette is a freaking joke right now and it's become its own problem due to being so easy that it's not preparing anyone for what comes later.

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It's sad how the most efficient way to clear all the bosses in each Expert dungeon is to ignore everything they do.

- Pony pulls you into the puddles? Eh, does nothing.
- Boss summons bomb minions. Ignore them
- Yojimo tosses coins around the area. Do it only to speed up the fight as failing the mechanic doesn't even do half your HP

The only boss worthy of notice is the second one in Temple of the Fist.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

It's sad how the most efficient way to clear all the bosses in each Expert dungeon is to ignore everything they do.

- Pony pulls you into the puddles? Eh, does nothing.
- Boss summons bomb minions. Ignore them
- Yojimo tosses coins around the area. Do it only to speed up the fight as failing the mechanic doesn't even do half your HP

The only boss worthy of notice is the second one in Temple of the Fist.

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You're right, but it's awesome for watching Black Mirror episodes.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Excuse you. Do you know me? Considering I only started playing several months after Gordias released, it's no wonder a level 13 Monk couldn't handle it. I didn't start raiding until Creator. And yes, I sucked back then. You wanna know what I did, I put in the effort to improve and now am progging Ultimate; content harder than Gordias or Midas. .

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the only reason you even could get started raiding was the constant easing of difficulty that ended in Creator. You talk this stuff about things being hard, well if it had been hard when you did it, you wouldn't even be here raiding; you wouldn't have been able to find a static to start. No one would have taken a chance on you then, just like it happened with gordias and midas. But there's always the tendency for people to pull up the ladders behind them.

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Why do people always jump to “Savage-level difficulty dungeons” whenever anyone suggests to make them slightly harder? No one has ever suggested dungeons be on a Savage-level. They just want them to not be something you can semi-AFK in the middle of and still clear.

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There's nothing they can do to make them harder that you don't see in ex primals or savage; ignoring boss mechanics would one shot you or set you up for a quick one shot, and there'd be a hard enrage. Otherwise its still just as semi-afkable.

I spilled some water during a dungeon run recently so I had to drop everything mid fight to go clean it up. By the time I got back I expected my character to be dead - but that wasn't the case. Literally every mechanic on the last boss of Skalla hit my character and the healer simply powered through. I apologised for it though they actually thanked me by saying it was the first exciting thing they'd seen in a roulette all week. :p

Glad he confirmed they will not be doing SCH fairy glamours, so people can now stop from making threads about it on a weekly basis.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

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Buying just any old PC and complaining you cannot game well or at all on it is like buying a toaster and complaining you cannot bake a pizza in it.

My only argument was that PC are not technically limited. If you buy one that is that does not mean that the PC are limited, its just that you made a bad purchase. Buy something made for what you intend to use it for. And a gaming PC, or even a PC capable of decent gaming, is not necessarily as expensive as that meme wants you to believe. Also, very few PC have soldered in components outside Apple products since PC are made to be upgradable or at least to allow replacement parts.

No matter what excuses you want to make, there is absolutely no way of getting around console limitations, no matter your argument. You literally just hit a wall with no way to get around it.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

Glad he confirmed they will not be doing SCH fairy glamours, so people can now stop from making threads about it on a weekly basis.

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hahaha you think that will stop them? Oh how you do not know the lodestone forums.

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Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

hahaha you think that will stop them? Oh how you do not know the lodestone forums.

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LOL, I guess I'm trying to be positive and give people the benefit of the doubt :o

I'm curious how the new housing will work.

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Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

No matter what excuses you want to make, there is absolutely no way of getting around console limitations, no matter your argument. You literally just hit a wall with no way to get around it.

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I'm not trying to deny console limitations. I know they exist. And most all-in-ones I've seen are soldered in components whether from Apple or otherwise. I don't think the Mac Pros (the tower units) are though. I'm saying low-end PCs which a lot of people have are ALSO limitations. And consumers will complain (general consumers). I'm fine, I'm upgrading my 760 (which isn't holding me back in any way as far as FFXIV goes) to a 1080 later on in the year, and looking at getting a new laptop with an i7, 8GB+ RAM, and a GTX 1060. But your general consumer? They will complain, they don't know. And no amount of educating seems to work. So it's not technically limited, but business-wise it's limited. As far as SE are concerned, they're one of the same.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

the only reason you even could get started raiding was the constant easing of difficulty that ended in Creator. You talk this stuff about things being hard, well if it had been hard when you did it, you wouldn't even be here raiding; you wouldn't have been able to find a static to start. No one would have taken a chance on you then, just like it happened with gordias and midas. But there's always the tendency for people to pull up the ladders behind them.

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That is absolute nonsense. Stop speaking for me. You are not me nor do you have any idea of what I may or may not have done. Plenty of raid groups came together during Midas and Gordias just like upstart ones happened with Ultimate. If you believe everyone progging Ultimate now has full oranges, you have no idea what you're talking. Although, that much is already evident. What caused struggles with statics more than anything was the necessity of being on the same server—something only rectified when Creator released. Had cross-world PF be a thing earlier, Gilgamesh never would have become the raid server.

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There's nothing they can do to make them harder that you don't see in ex primals or savage; ignoring boss mechanics would one shot you or set you up for a quick one shot, and there'd be a hard enrage. Otherwise its still just as semi-afkable.

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Weeping City, Pharos Sirius, The Vault, Dun Scaith, Final Steps of Faith, Titan Hard, Ifrit Hard and Chrysalis would all like a word with you. None of them were Savage levels yet didn't allow you to sem-afk. In fact, I had the most fun healing Kugane Castle the other week when our tank decided to purposely DC and my friend, on Bard, tanked Yojimbo. For once, I actually had to weave between healing and DPSing since she just didn't have the HP or CDs to where I could put Regen on her and spam Stone IV. Actually having to heal a dungeon boss. What a novel concept.

What I find particularly ironic is how adamant you were Ultimate shouldn't exist and made every effort to complain about it yet now you're chastising raiders for complaining. Pot meet kettle much?

The devs admitted one reason they've dropped a second dungeon from odd numbered patches is due to lackluster interest. Maybe, just maybe. That lack of interest stems from the fact dungeons scarcely require a pulse and have followed the precise same formula for four years.

This train detailed at over 60 mph.

I'm digging a lot of the translation. Not so much the insinuation that they are holding off on long hairstyles because of clipping when every in-game video I've ever seen them post has some of the most blatant clipping imaginable, but I had a sneaking suspicion they weren't ever gonna give us actual long hair for awhile. This just adds to it.

In regards to raid difficulty, you can never please everyone. The smart choice is to maintain variety for everyone (including super hards like ultimate and such) but not gate IMPORTANT story behind it. Making a side story for it should be fine, just nothing MSQ. This way it reaches the most people with the most balance over all. And, I think they've generally been trying to do that with varying success. I cannot really comment further, I am definitely one of those that does raid content at least one xpac late, and it suits me just fine, no complaints here. ^_^

I think I had quit raiding during Gordias because it was a flaming mess that very few people could even do so no to that level of difficulty again lol, Midas was great until the fourth turn some of the statics I was in or subbing for would take days and even the whole week to get it cleared for the week...i think at that point it starts to get a bit ridiculous

Creator in my opinion was the best base line they had it was difficult but not over the top foolishness that only some people can do...so I'm all for raising the difficulty for a challenge but alot of raiders forget not all raiders are on the same skill level and you will essentially be killing your community and only leaving the extremely great players who are like perfect robots which are far from many

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Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

Buying just any old PC and complaining you cannot game well or at all on it is like buying a toaster and complaining you cannot bake a pizza in it.

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Agreed alright & it's really thanks to my capability to never cry when the crow calls.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

And Steps of Faith.

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To me, the issue with Steps of Faith wasn't one of difficulty (even it was a trial that couldn't be facerolled through), but the fact that it was just badly designed. If you'd get into a DF group that'd either not have enough dps, or the ability to do the dragonkillers properly, you'd still have to wait until the dragon reached the end of the bridge before the fight would result in a wipe.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Plenty of raid groups came together during Gordias

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Not really going to dig into this too much, but you really have no idea how bad Gordias was to the raiding community. The Gordias tier didn't have "plenty of raid groups" coming together, it actually reduced the active raiding population by quite a bit.
The group of players standing at the Gordias entrance, on reset day, would shrink with every following week (this was back when going to the entrance was still a requirement to going into Alexander), and the majority of the statics I knew about ended up falling apart on A3S.

You're probably right about Midas, but I stopped raiding for that tier, and didn't go back to it until the release of Creator.

OT: I'm happy with the fact that they're choosing to keep the difficulty of Sigmascape similar to Deltascape, if they're using v3/4s as a baseline. I do think they could make the first two floors a tiny bit harder, though.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

Not really going to dig into this too much, but you really have no idea how bad Gordias was to the raiding community. The Gordias tier didn't have "plenty of raid groups" coming together, it actually reduced the active raiding population by quite a bit.
The group of players standing at the Gordias entrance, on reset day, would shrink with every following week (this was back when going to the entrance was still a requirement to going into Alexander), and the majority of the statics I knew about ended up falling apart on A3S.

You're probably right about Midas, but I stopped raiding for that tier, and didn't go back to it until the release of Creator.

OT: I'm happy with the fact that they're choosing to keep the difficulty of Sigmascape similar to Deltascape, if they're using v3/4s as a baseline. I do think they could make the first two floors a tiny bit harder, though.

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Plenty relative to what was available. I'll concede how successful they were... leaves something to be desired. That being said, my rebuttal was more Riyah's insistence you couldn't raid in either Gordias or Midas without experience. You certainly could. I am well aware Gordias was a disaster for the raid scene, but no one is asking for that level of difficulty again. Frankly, that is what I find so irksome. Whenever difficulty or lack thereof is mentioned, someone instantly jumps to the tier virtually everyone acknowledges—devs included—was poorly designed. There's a middle ground between Gordias and Omega. It also cannot be stressed enough the impact cross world PF had. The absence of this feature severely limited recruitment pools hence why Gilgamesh became what it was.

Regardless, the crux of my reply dealt more with the fact someone who doesn't even participate in Savage was essentially assuming my position and opinion. Which I didn't appreciate.

I'll grant you V3/4S, though I do wish they would stick to what they said originally and gradually built back up. Omega -> Creator -> Midas (Perhaps slightly easier)

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Plenty relative to what was available. I'll concede how successful they were... leaves something to be desired. That being said, my rebuttal was more Riyah's insistence you couldn't raid in either Gordias or Midas without experience. You certainly could.

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But you didn't start playing the game until months after Gordias, and didn't start raiding until Creator. How would you know about how successful Gordias statics were? While Riyah is wrong about Midas, they aren't entirely wrong about Gordias. If you weren't on Gilgamesh, or a similarly big server, or were part of a Coil static with a solid core, tough luck.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I am well aware Gordias was a disaster for the raid scene, but no one is asking for that level of difficulty again. Frankly, that is what I find so irksome. Whenever difficulty or lack thereof is mentioned, someone instantly jumps to the tier virtually everyone acknowledges—devs included—was poorly designed.

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You can't really blame people for jumping to Gordias difficulty, when raid difficulty is brought to the discussion table. It was Final Coil feedback from a minority of hardcore players that SE listened to, that resulted in the difficulty of Gordias.

Besides, I'm sure there's still some (insane) players that would be asking for Gordias difficulty again.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

There's a middle ground between Gordias and Omega.

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Where exactly that middle ground is, is debatable. I think v3/4s is a good middle ground.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

It also cannot be stressed enough the impact cross world PF had. The absence of this feature severely limited recruitment pools hence why Gilgamesh became what it was.

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It'd definitely have helped during Gordias, but I don't think it'd have prevented it from being a disaster to the raiding community.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Regardless, the crux of my reply dealt more with the fact someone who doesn't even participate in Savage was essentially assuming my position and opinion. Which I didn't appreciate.

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Understandable, though my replies aren't taking those assumptions in mind, since most of them were silly, aside from the Gordias one.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

blah blah "savage is so easy why arent they making it harder"

...census shows maybe 5% or less of NA on most servers clear OS4, and maybe 1000 people total Savage coil. The whole raid puffery gets old after awhile.

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Blabla, people post it's too hard. It comes from same people who complained about normal shinryu. Same people about nidhogg story mode too. What's your point?

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

I'm curious how the new housing will work.

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He said he's pretty sure we'll be able to obtain plots. Maybe new wards will be auto created when old are filled?

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

But you didn't start playing the game until months after Gordias, and didn't start raiding until Creator. How would you know about how successful Gordias statics were? While Riyah is wrong about Midas, they aren't entirely wrong about Gordias. If you weren't on Gilgamesh, or a similarly big server, or were part of a Coil static with a solid core, tough luck.

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Because I know people who were playing throughout Gordias; dealing with the good, bad and ugly aspects all around. I also neither claimed they were successful nor that transferring to Gilgamesh basically became a requirement. Riyah's response bluntly stated I wouldn't be able to raid—an entirely subjective statement—without the eventual nerfs to Savage. Would I need to make concessions, including a potential server change? Absolutely. But she has no way of knowing how I would progress.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

You can't really blame people for jumping to Gordias difficulty, when raid difficulty is brought to the discussion table. It was Final Coil feedback from a minority of hardcore players that SE listened to, that resulted in the difficulty of Gordias.

Besides, I'm sure there's still some (insane) players that would be asking for Gordias difficulty again.

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Sure you can. It's an emotional fallacy; appealing to an extreme scenario that assumes the opposing person's stance without any context.

Oh, I have come across them. And promptly disagreed for the reasons stated. Granted, I do think A3S could have worked were it pushed to A4S and brought down just enough to not require tomestome gear.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

Where exactly that middle ground is, is debatable. I think v3/4s is a good middle ground.

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Creator, or slightly above. While I actually like v3/4, Cruise Chaser and Alex are better tuned fights. At least, I believe so. Per my edit, I would have preferred to see: Omega -> Creator -> Midas (Perhaps slightly easier). Admittedly, I can somewhat settle on just V1/2 getting a much needed bump. Alt Roite has no business being labeled Savage.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

It'd definitely have helped during Gordias, but I don't think it'd have prevented it from being a disaster to the raiding community.

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While I somewhat agree, I do think it would have curved the diaster enough to be better rectified. Personally, I feel had they released Creator's difficulty after Gordias and scaled up to Midas afterwards, it would have been better. I just dislike static progression, which Savage will become if it never increases beyond what it is now.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

Understandable, though my replies aren't taking those assumptions in mind, since most of them were silly, aside from the Gordias one.

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Fair enough. Perhaps I could have worded it better.