Prohibit the advertising of content sales via the cross-server PF

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

Unless they are cross world selling which the only way to pay is RMT.

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Not necessarily. A lot of groups are not all on the same server and can easily make dummy characters to collect gil and then transfer them. Or they will only accept buyers from their home server. If they have cross-server selected, it's either from laziness or because PF automatically defaults any and all PF settings to view cross-world PFs first, then home-server PFs. Higher visibility = more potential; that's the basics of advertising.

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People shouldn't have to ignore it though, there's no reason why these people should get away with mis-listing stuff under Expert Roullete and Lakshmi EX, its abusing party finder, if they wanted to list their sales under no listing that would be fine I think a lot less people would complain about it. But intentionally mislisting stuff is just annoying and something the GMs should address, people have no right to be listed higher in PF just cause they want to make large amounts of gil.

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Stuff in PF is listed based on the content selected. Most I see are either listed up Ultimate or ShinEx or V4S these days, which appear higher than Susano or Lakshmi. If people don't want to see them, they can blacklist and they'll be greyed out automatically. Won't hide them but they will be easier to skip over. GMs have said selling content for gil is not against the ToS, and without in-game proof of people asking for real money, nothing will be done. Those who do ask for real money are smart enough to not do it in game, so they will never get caught because GMs will not accept Discord chat logs as evidence. Hence why it is best to ignore them and go on your merry way.

Content sellers "ruin the experience" of others because others let them. Stop caring about the content sellers so much and your experience won't be ruined anymore. It's that simple.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Just want to point out that you can transfer that amount of gil relatively easy and in non-convoluted ways. The person selling can either invite you to their FC and ask that you deposit the gil into their FC chest (easiest way), or they list some random cheapy item on the MB and tell you to go to the appropriate city-state to buy it/them (e.g., they list 3 Iron Ores for 50 mil a piece + any MB taxes and tell you to go to Gridania and buy them). Content sales doesn't always mean RMT.

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In World of Warcraft, aside from Guild chest, all operations was bannable. Including trading and buying Auction House items for crazy prices.
At first you will receive an auto-ban from Warden, then they will look at your case after.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Content sellers "ruin the experience" of others because others let them. Stop caring about the content sellers so much and your experience won't be ruined anymore. It's that simple.

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Again I disagree ,if people are abusing party finder by intentionally mis-listing stuff and not clicking the right settings everyday its not a mistake and clear sellers need to quit acting like they are better than everyone else by not properly listing their stuff. I don't promote my FC under EX roulette or Lakshmi EX because that would be obnoxious and annoying and an abuse of the way PF is designed, people shouldn't get a pass just cause they claim to be good enough to sell content with 7 people. PF is designed so if people want to do things like sell clears they will be at the bottom of the list because those aren't the kinds of listings the devs want showing first, mistlisting stuff is going against the intention the devs had behind redoing the way PF lists things. I wouldn't care about this at all if they actually listed their stuff correctly and it was at the bottom of the list.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

if they wanted to list their sales under no listing that would be fine I think a lot less people would complain about it.

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I disagree with this. Listing any PF under the None setting means it doesn't get filtered out by anything. And, as a sub-70 player, it does me absolutely no good to see their listings for content I can't even access.

They're listing for duties they're running, or presumably similar on par. If the duty they're recruiting for is one they will run, how is it a mislisting? Sounds to me like you're making some large assumptions on how PF is designed.

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

I disagree with this. Listing any PF under the None setting means it doesn't get filtered out by anything. And, as a sub-70 player, it does me absolutely no good to see their listings for content I can't even access.

They're listing for duties they're running, or presumably similar on par. If the duty they're recruiting for is one they will run, how is it a mislisting? Sounds to me like you're making some large assumptions on how PF is designed.

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They are mislisting... no one is selling Expert Roulette and Lakshmi EX runs they just list under those so they get to the top of the list. They are selling stuff like Omega Savage and Ultimate Coil they aren't listing under those because they want to be seen at the top of the list.

@HyoMinPark

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Gil (10 million gil per character, 5 million gil per retainer)

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Quote from transfer info.
This means you can transfer 60 mil Gil with 10 retainers, the other 90 mil must come from other sources, be it a re-selling something at Marketboard or RMT.
Also, top guilds accept Gil for 3 reasons:
- To get Alchemy/Food
- HQ Items at the start of next patch
- To sell the Gill to RMT traders in huge amount.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

They are mislisting... no one is selling Expert Roulette and Lakshmi EX runs they just list under those so they get to the top of the list. They are selling stuff like Omega Savage and Ultimate Coil they aren't listing under those because they want to be seen at the top of the list.

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Can you share some screenshots please? Just snap every instance of these rampant mislistings you find, upload to imgur and post them here.

I'm especially curious about the idiots selling Ultimate Coil and Omega Savage from a LakEx listing since in my pf it goes ult>o4s>o3s>o2s>o1s>susex>lakex>exroulette

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Can you share some screenshots please? Just snap every instance of these rampant mislistings you find, upload to imgur and post them here.

I'm especially curious about the idiots selling Ultimate Coil and Omega Savage from a LakEx listing since in my pf it goes ult>o4s>o3s>o2s>o1s>susex>lakex>exroulette

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I'd have to post a screenshot and edit out the names next time I see one up, are you on the Aether data center? there are usually 2-3 lists near the top of PF every afternoon/evening.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

I'd have to post a screenshot and edit out the names next time I see one up, are you on the Aether data center? there are usually 2-3 lists near the top of PF every afternoon/evening.

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I guess I can take a look next time. You should still upload screenshots, names edited out though just in case when I check and don't see the expert roulette offering to sell me an ultimate clear or what-have-you. (Doesn't even make sense to do that--there's no sale happening if said person can't even access it and they need to kill v4s to access it)

Cross server doesn't automatically mean RMT. People can play on more than one server.

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Originally Posted by Zeonsilt

Including trading and buying Auction House items for crazy prices.
At first you will receive an auto-ban from Warden, then they will look at your case after.

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And as I found out the hard way on my thread about extreme undercutting, FFXIV is not WoW. They don't have the same rules, by the terms of service I am allowed to heavily disrupt the market by either selling things for hyper-inflated prices, or selling them at a loss (say, selling Ao Dais for 1 gil) here. The rules here are very unlikely to change as well.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

Cross server doesn't automatically mean RMT. People can play on more than one server.

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So why demand discord only?

What do they have to hide from SE?
And to add to that...no ones answering the elephant in the room...on how to get hundreds of millions of gil cross server worlds...with the limits obviously and plainly posted.

Was discord demanded? Didn't notice that in post.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

Was discord demanded? Didn't notice that in post.

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Yes many of the PFs set an ilvl like 500 or something so players can't join the PF and in the description they tell people to contact them on discord.

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

So why demand discord only?

What do they have to hide from SE?
And to add to that...no ones answering the elephant in the room...on how to get hundreds of millions of gil cross server worlds...with the limits obviously and plainly posted.

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Report it when you see it is all I can say. That or ignore it and go about your day.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

Was discord demanded? Didn't notice that in post.

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I've seen several..right now there's only one on my server at the moment. It just bugs the hell out of me that its so....suspicious and weird. Course this one is only advertising on 2 speciifc worlds..which others have not done in the past.

Perhaps word is getting out? lol. But this is typically the format.. If I spot one..ill post it.

*snip*

Sargatanas and Gilgamesh only. At least in this one they have servers specified so one can assume their characters are on the server they expect gil from.

How are they clearing ultimate coil with 7 people?

I highly doubt they are. Piloting is probably involved, but so long as its only gil that trades hands, I have no issues with it.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

I highly doubt they are. Piloting is probably involved, but so long as its only gil that trades hands, I have no issues with it.

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Giving out account info/logging into someone else's account is a TOS violation though there's no way what they are advertising doesn't violate the rules.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

Giving out account info/logging into someone else's account is a TOS violation though there's no way what they are advertising doesn't violate the rules.

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Again, that tos violation is just to cover Square in the event someone gives their info out and loses their account over it. Square cannot be held responsible for idiocy.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Again, that tos violation is just to cover Square in the event someone gives their info out and loses their account over it. Square cannot be held responsible for idiocy.

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Regardless of the reason for the rule that doesn't change the fact they are advertising something that violates the TOS.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

Regardless of the reason for the rule that doesn't change the fact they are advertising something that violates the TOS.

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Then go ahead and report them. I'm not going to, because it's none of my business.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Again, that tos violation is just to cover Square in the event someone gives their info out and loses their account over it. Square cannot be held responsible for idiocy.

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you're missing the point.

Giving your account info out...will get you banned...period.
Microsoft does this as well.... concerning Xbox Live. Its a common tactic....people do stupid things and expect to get their stuff back...problem is...if you gave your stuff away....you're to blame..not the guy who walked off with it. (Course he gets dinged too :P )

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

you're missing the point.

Giving your account info out...will get you banned...period.
Microsoft does this as well.... concerning Xbox Live. Its a common tactic....people do stupid things and expect to get their stuff back...problem is...if you gave your stuff away....you're to blame..not the guy who walked off with it. (Course he gets dinged too :P )

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What point did I miss? How does Square know that someone else is playing the account and is not just online from a different ip address?

Might be a bit easier for ms who has accounts tied to consoles though.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

What point did I miss? How does Square know that someone else is playing the account and is not just online from a different ip address?

Might be a bit easier for ms who has accounts tied to consoles though.

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If a person logs in from a different location elsewhere in the world in a very short time frame(it a distance that it would be impossible for them to travel physically). IE Someone's IP shows they are in Florida then 5 minutes later it shows they are logged in with an IP address in New York.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

What point did I miss? How does Square know that someone else is playing the account and is not just online from a different ip address?

Might be a bit easier for ms who has accounts tied to consoles though.

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You'd be surprised. There's a great deal of info to be gleamed...just based off your IP Address (WAN side..not your LAN side) I'm not going to get into details....but people think they can get away with murder...well..don't work that way.

And SE wont need proof.... all it takes is some poor idiot giving his info out...reporting his stuff is missing in ignorance (Cause who really reads the fine print anymore?) And SE concludes they did something stupid.

The ToS is clear..they own your account..they own your stuff (in game) and can pull the plug at-will.

Its a moot point....bottom line...DO NOT..give your account info out...period...dont share it...dont loan it out...just..dont.

You WILL get hit.....its a fact.

PS: As for Xbox Live? The console info only factored in because of credit card fraud situations...but they got their accounts nuked too...cause..you guessed it..they gave out their info. Microsoft didn't always insta ban...but if you give them enough cause to do so (Insert angry mother over credit card charges) and they will pull the plug to end it.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

If a person logs in from a different location elsewhere in the world in a very short time frame(it a distance that it would be impossible for them to travel physically). IE Someone's IP shows they are in Florida then 5 minutes later it shows they are logged in with an IP address in New York.

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Assuming SE has script that tracks that and would ban for that without someone reporting.

I guess I'll concede there if only because I don't know how the actual networking works.

In the end, that's still the client's choice and gamble. It remains none of my business and is still something I won't report.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

Assuming SE has script that tracks that and would ban for that without someone reporting.

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No script needed.

Everything is logged..in fact its very easy considering they have numerous Data-centers/Servers all over the world. It's not going to take a genius to figure out that Player A who is logged in at IP Address ABC and then logs into same server from the other side of the country on a totally different connection.

You can bet that anytime someone logs in...logs off...its time stamped....basic account security 101. IP address will be tracked..etc..etc...

Not even a Proxy Server will save you...it just makes you look more guilty.

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

No script needed.

Everything is logged..in fact its very easy considering they have numerous Data-centers/Servers all over the world. It's not going to take a genius to figure out that Player A who is logged in at IP Address ABC and then logs into same server from the other side of the country on a totally different connection.

You can bet that anytime someone logs in...logs off...its time stamped....basic account security 101. IP address will be tracked..etc..etc...

Not even a Proxy Server will save you...it just makes you look more guilty.

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Way too much data to do by hand without a very good reason.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

Giving out account info/logging into someone else's account is a TOS violation though there's no way what they are advertising doesn't violate the rules.

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Do you also take offence with all the in game quest dialogue that is technically against the ToS too?

Honestly, take a deep breath man.

And to clarify: account sharing was a thing literally 18+ years ago, unsurprisingly it was against the rules back then too. Why? Does a kitten get trodden on everyone you give out your password? No. It's a 'cover our backs' thing pretty much any and all account based services have used when real or imaginary items of value come into the equation.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Do you also take offence with all the in game quest dialogue that is technically against the ToS too?

Honestly, take a deep breath man.

And to clarify: account sharing was a thing literally 18+ years ago, unsurprisingly it was against the rules back then too. Why? Does a kitten get trodden on everyone you give out your password? No. It's a 'cover our backs' thing pretty much any and all account based services have used when real or imaginary items of value come into the equation.

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We are having a discussion about why certain PF listings shouldn't be allowed if they violate the TOS, please don't start harassing me by trying to make this some personal thing.

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

Everything is logged..in fact its very easy considering they have numerous Data-centers/Servers all over the world. It's not going to take a genius to figure out that Player A who is logged in at IP Address ABC and then logs into same server from the other side of the country on a totally different connection.

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I suspect the Middle Eastern and Asian player bases would like a word with you on that one. For many people, services such as BattlePing are absolutely required to play this game and they will often have to hop around a few different nodes to get a stable connection.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

Way too much data to do by hand without a very good reason.

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Its just automatic/assumed to be the case on anything requiring sign in.

Like when you sign into your email account...you likely have a SQL Database sitting there holding on to the information in question.....it too will log every sneeze and twitch.
Its just common Server Admin knowledge generally...somewhere...somehow..its logged.

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

Its just automatic/assumed to be the case on anything requiring sign in.

Like when you sign into your email account...you likely have a SQL Database sitting there holding on to the information in question.....it too will log every sneeze and twitch.
Its just common Server Admin knowledge generally...somewhere...somehow..its logged.

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So how is that different from a script?

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

We are having a discussion about why certain PF listings shouldn't be allowed if they violate the TOS, please don't start harassing me by trying to make this some personal thing.

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I suspect people would appreciate your points better if you could provide a little more reasoning than it simply 'violating the TOS'.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

<snip>

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I'm sure there are certain exceptions to the rule....and it would be a bit too painfully obvious if you jump continents....my context was in the country.

The North American Datacenters are not all in one location you know.

There's one here in Seattle just down the street from my Datacetner I work at.
One in Sacramento....etc...etc...

I should also point out...that you may not understand what i mean by Proxy...Proxy servers "hide" your actual IP....much like a firewall shields you from attacks (most...attacks).

What you are talking about is a anti-latency tool....different tactic all together.

Proxy Servers always have one conclusion when it comes to people who use them - you're hiding something....and that spells trouble.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

So how is that different from a script?

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Today things like that are already automatic and come with the platform.
What your inferring is its a script that has to be written..and applied at-will.

Yeah..semantics.

Scripts to refine the data..make it more meaningful? Yeah....but the raw data is there..already logged..already tracked.

There's even GUI's that are written and easy to install that make pretty pictures out of it..... GEO-IP'ing is a fun little hobby for example.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

Regardless of the reason for the rule that doesn't change the fact they are advertising something that violates the TOS.

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By that reasoning those ads are already a violation of the ToS, aka prohibited - so you can just go ahead and report them. No need to take a shot at clear-selling because you dont like it. If its actual ToS-violations you're worried about and you see them: Report those.
Why would you want to write something in the ToS to prohibite it, when its already in there?