DPS is the job of DPS.

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Originally Posted by Squintina

I think DPSing is the mobs's job :D

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This is actually the only argument not susceptible to error in definition, seeing as 99.9% of mobs are unable to heal or self-mitigate. We have the final answer.

What's the point? They aren't going to back away from the claim that the combat system was "fixed". The dps race is the same as before, because the hard enrage is still a part of the encounter, waiting to stamp out everyone's efforts. And Also, because the incessant grind is still there, that mindset trickles down to other content.

People say to blame the players, but I think the devs are at fault here. the majority of the time the player isn't even playing content with the full moveset. And there isn't the instruction to make the player able to tackle the higher level content. Hell, that content takes away instruction, which leaves people in the dark as to what is going on and builds frustration at other content.

It's just another part of their overhaul that failed to deliver.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

I vote Tank 2. Probably a more relaxed and fun run.

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W h at
I mean what

i think I had enough internet for today.

Woo, another thread to beat this dead horse even more (since 2 others on the first page weren’t enough). So here’s my equally as useless reply.

Oh, NO. This thread made me stop DPSing as a tank/healer. https://i.imgur.com/hZw2lbe.png

Stop this "it's not their job" bs, you're not getting paid for playing these jobs. It's not even that bad as people make it look. No one is saying that they should dps 100% of the time, we get some people are learning or are not confident enough. Most people don't force others in roulettes to do it. Most people ENCOURAGE others to do it. Yes, there are few a**holes that would probably quick you, it sucks but it's legal (difference of gameplay reason), but the majority won't. Ultimately, it's up to the player to play optimally or not*.



*Yes, optimally means a balance between your primary and secondary function. Doing the primary function only is the bare minium. It all boil downs to contribution, and inb4 you mention that faulty argument of "If you need healer/tank DPS, then you should check on your DPS first" (because I've seen it before), allow me to tell you that "NO". You can have EXTRA DPS to skip mechanics, burn trash faster, and overall get a faster run. It's not needed per se, but preferred.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

it is not the healers job. it is not the tanks job.

Should the healer and tank strive to do as much dps as possible? SURE! as long as they are also performing their actual job first and foremost. and their ACTUAL job should be the first thing people look at when looking for a tank or healer.

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Just stop doing other stuff during a dungeon (watching netflix and so on) and you are perfectly able to do you main job AND dps. Seriously why is it so hard for people to use more than 3 buttons?

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Originally Posted by Ilan

Just stop doing other stuff during a dungeon (watching netflix and so on) and you are perfectly able to do you main job AND dps. Seriously why is it so hard for people to use more than 3 buttons?

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Bonus points if you can tank, watch Netflix, AND DPS at the same time.

EDIT: While I do have netflix/youtube running when running dungeons, it's usually just background noise while the dungeon runs lol

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

I just ran a 50-60 roulette where: Tank AND healer did more than the MNK. Mnk didn't do his job as dps then. No aoe, didn't keep up demolish on boss fights. Explain to me how the tank never died when the healer did nearly twice as much as the MNK. While the healer did her/his duty as healer while doing a good chunck of damage that you also said, is a dps job, but they never did it. Explain, I want your expertise.

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Easy, the MNK is clearly still going through an existential crisis, wondering what the point of his existence is and why he doesn't just move on in life. Stuck in an ever-looping quandary, he's just merely going through the motions in life; no will to fight the tide and no motivation to press on, knowing that what's in store for him is a looming shadow of regret and despair. He's just... there. Poor MNKs.

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Originally Posted by Ilan

Just stop doing other stuff during a dungeon (watching netflix and so on) and you are perfectly able to do you main job AND dps. Seriously why is it so hard for people to use more than 3 buttons?

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op is someone who made a thread complaining about how hard blm was and decided they were going to go back to tanking, and then complained more when people explained that tanks are supposed to dps too. essentially they just want a free ride

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Bonus points if you can tank, watch Netflix, AND DPS at the same time.

EDIT: While I do have netflix/youtube running when running dungeons, it's usually just background noise while the dungeon runs lol

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Sometimes i would've liked to watch something during a dungeon because the dps of the dps was so low that i almost fell asleep. :D

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Originally Posted by Hruodig

op is someone who made a thread complaining about how hard blm was and decided they were going to go back to tanking, and then complained more when people explained that tanks are supposed to dps too. essentially they just want a free ride

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But BLM is hard if people always bring their AOE shit to you (in rabanastre) and force you to move and lose enochian. ;)

This game is becoming more n more like WoW mentality everyday it's getting scary.

Look if you want a party that speed runs content, healers that DPS and DPS that use AoE to their fullest extent then pop up a PF and put it into the description, instead of trying to force people to your way of playing.

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Originally Posted by Shouko

This game is becoming more n more like WoW mentality everyday it's getting scary.

Look if you want a party that speed runs content, healers that DPS and DPS that use AoE to their fullest extent then pop up a PF and put it into the description, instead of trying to force people to your way of playing.

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I remember this mentality in WoW raids, but not as much in dungeons.
So, based on my personal experience (which doesn't amount to much as it's all anecdotal), I would be led to believe that FF14's mentality might actually be worse.
And considering what I've seen my husband, who always mains a tank in games he plays, encounter doing leveling dungeons & trials, it doesn't make it seem any better... :/

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Originally Posted by Shouko

This game is becoming more n more like WoW mentality everyday it's getting scary.

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Are you recently active on the forums? I see the 2013 join date, but only 26 posts, so I have to wonder.

I ask because the posts I've seen from you have largely been about how people talking about the metagame aspects of the game, such as wanting job balance and tank/healer damage is a bad thing that is detracting your enjoyment of the game. But you act like these are things that are recent.

This is the general state of these forums. The people here are constantly arguing over things like this. I don't know what WoW mentality is, and personally it doesn't matter to me.

I say this with no ill intent at all; but rather, genuine advice. If being on the forums is negatively impacting how you enjoy the game and its community...don't come to the forums. At least avoid the General Discussion, Tanks, Healers, and DPS forums, because what you see here is mostly all that the mentioned forums contain.

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Originally Posted by Squintina

I remember this mentality in WoW raids, but not as much in dungeons.
So, based on my personal experience (which doesn't amount to much as it's all anecdotal), I would be led to believe that FF14's mentality might actually be worse.

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Pretty sure that WoW tanks have to focus more on mitigation because boss melee hits aren't fluff like in this game.

You wont clear Neo without healer dps unless your dps is top. Are you gonna ask us to just stand there waiting until your hp is low or can we actually contribute?

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Originally Posted by Lunafreya

You wont clear Neo without healer dps unless your dps is top. Are you gonna ask us to just stand there waiting until your hp is low or can we actually contribute?

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I doubt these types of people are running high end content and if they are they're probably being carried.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Are you recently active on the forums? I see the 2013 join date, but only 26 posts, so I have to wonder.

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Currently house sitting for my mom, which has spotty internet due to her location, because of this can't really play the game atm and so have been on the forums to see what the current state of people's mindset is. I don't take it personally nor am I attempting to change anyone, just adding my 2 cents.

WoW and this game are very much alike in the sense they started off great with the sense of a mmo community and having a challenge and working towards it, but over the years it's become this soulless game where nobody really talks, or helps as much, fights aren't explained or asked about most of the time, it's all about loot, and glamour, vanity to the extreme, etc.

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Originally Posted by Shouko

This game is becoming more n more like WoW mentality everyday it's getting scary.

Look if you want a party that speed runs content, healers that DPS and DPS that use AoE to their fullest extent then pop up a PF and put it into the description, instead of trying to force people to your way of playing.

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This has nothing to do with WoW, it exists in every single mmo. We aren't asking you to solve a rubix cube 1 handed or solving the Hydratic Equation while at the same time playing your job at the highest level physically possible. Just don't be lazy and stand around doing nothing when there isn't healing that is required or damage needed to mitigate. ABC=Always be casting/pressing buttons making sure your gcd's are always on cooldown, this really isn't rocket science. It really isn't that much to ask, but apparently people get some kind of enjoyment out of impeding other people's progress by developing these odd, unorthodox play styles intentionally gimping themselves and wasting other people's time because "It's mah sub". Cheers.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

I vote Tank 2. Probably a more relaxed and fun run.

@Freyt. Yelling at someone is communication. It just might not be very effective communication.

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Communication is a two way street. If you yell at someone, you are refusing to accept their input while forcing them to accept your output. There are times when this is acceptable, such as relaying information to a crowd, or when there's an emergency. On the other hand, a crowd going silent to let someone speak to them is a form of communicating that they are ready to listen.

There are plenty of nuances, but shutting someone down will never be communication.

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Originally Posted by Squintina

I remember this mentality in WoW raids, but not as much in dungeons.
So, based on my personal experience (which doesn't amount to much as it's all anecdotal), I would be led to believe that FF14's mentality might actually be worse.
And considering what I've seen my husband, who always mains a tank in games he plays, encounter doing leveling dungeons & trials, it doesn't make it seem any better... :/

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What I meant by the WoW mentality is the constant silence and need for faster runs, not talking to each other, pug everything and everything else. The game became far too hand me everything so i don't have to work for it mentality, if you played it in Vanilla it was a time waster, it took ages to get anywhere and we were fine with that. You had to earn your gear, aka dungeons only dropped blue, raids dropped purple, blues were extremely rare outside of a dungeon, purples were exceptionally rare.

After people complain about the lack of tanks but you yell at us for the dps , how to dps or sometimes i've received insult because i'm doing 2500 dps, if you want tanks comes to your parties be nice with us and stop asking for dps, Dps IT S FOR DD NOT for tanks ! That FFlogs doesn't respect privacy of players and should be closed for the harrasement we players tanks or dps we have!

Can"t you Not happy only with a team going well in runs without expcepting too much??

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Originally Posted by Bradach

After people complain about the lack of tanks but you yell at us for the dps , how to dps or sometimes i've received insult because i'm doing 2500 dps, if you want tanks comes to your parties be nice with us and stop asking for dps, Dps IT S FOR DD NOT for tanks ! That FFlogs doesn't respect privacy of players and should be closed for the harrasement we players tanks or dps we have!

Can"t you Not happy only with a team going well in runs without expcepting too much??

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*loud screeching noises*

The biggest problem with this mentality OP is that SE doesn't make mobs challenging enough to warrent healers and tanks to exclusively perform their role. If I am able to go into sword oath without any danger, and a healer is left idling because my health doesn't go down quickly, then all that is left is to DPS.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

The biggest problem with this mentality OP is that SE doesn't make mobs challenging enough to warrent healers and tanks to exclusively perform their role. If I am able to go into sword oath without any danger, and a healer is left idling because my health doesn't go down quickly, then all that is left is to DPS.

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This. Bosses need to hit harder and have lower DPS requirements to compensate. That would also make Tenacity and Piety more attractive stats.

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Originally Posted by Bradach

snip.

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There is no such thing as privacy when it comes to your virtual avatar. FFlogs aside, everything you do in-game is logged and can be seen. So please spare us the "invading mah privacies" spiel, because it doesn't apply in a virtual world unless your RL info is involved.


Also, it's not expecting too much to ask people to not sit there doing nothing when there is no damage to mitigate or damage to heal. If this was their intent, then there would be no reason for sword oath, deliverance or the cleric stance role ability to exist. It's just pure laziness, plain and simple.

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Originally Posted by Bradach

After people complain about the lack of tanks but you yell at us for the dps , how to dps or sometimes i've received insult because i'm doing 2500 dps, if you want tanks comes to your parties be nice with us and stop asking for dps, Dps IT S FOR DD NOT for tanks ! That FFlogs doesn't respect privacy of players and should be closed for the harrasement we players tanks or dps we have!

Can"t you Not happy only with a team going well in runs without expcepting too much??

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Translation: I want to do the absolute bare minimum but demand you perform top 90%. Now ban parses so no one can see I'm not contributing even half as much.

To put it simply
https://media1.tenor.com/images/e140...itemid=3296566

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Originally Posted by Bradach

After people complain about the lack of tanks but you yell at us for the dps , how to dps or sometimes i've received insult because i'm doing 2500 dps, if you want tanks comes to your parties be nice with us and stop asking for dps, Dps IT S FOR DD NOT for tanks ! That FFlogs doesn't respect privacy of players and should be closed for the harrasement we players tanks or dps we have!

Can"t you Not happy only with a team going well in runs without expcepting too much??

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As it was discussed in another thread, you don’t own any of the information in this game; it’s all owned by SE. You pay for access via your subscription, but you do not own it. So there’s no privacy of yours for FFLogs to violate; aside from the fact that FFLogs and ACT derive their numbers from in-game Battle Logs, which are public for everyone to see if you have the appropriate chat log settings.

That being said, nothing in this game hits hard enough to warrant tanks to remain in their stances, and for healers to have 80~90% healing uptime. Aggro is ridiculously easy to hold for any competent tank, more so if the DPS and healers are also competent and are mindful of their personal enmity. With nothing else to do, why not DPS? DPS is a byproduct of a tank’s rotation anyways. By you saying “stop asking for DPS”, you’re, in a way, saying that you should be expected to just Flash and nothing more in terms of tanking: Flash and cooldown usage.

All the jobs in this game are DPS jobs with additional abilities/support: tanks are DPS with enmity-generating and damage mitigation skills. Healers are DPS with healing and other support skills. DPS are DPS with higher damage-dealing skills than the prior two. But all three roles are, essentially, DPS. Because FFXIV is a DPS-oriented game by its current design.

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Originally Posted by fumofu

And what if as tank I'm not confident enough that I can focus at keeping mobs on me, surviving and maxing dps at same time? Or I just haven't played for a long time? You don't really know player circumstances and don't really have a right to expect everyone to be on top of their game every time.

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You’re severely misinterpreting that post. What they’re saying is, tanks that know what they are doing should strive to do more than just 1-2-3. Healers that know what they’re doing should be striving for more than just a heal every 30 seconds/refreshing the regen every 23 seconds/letting Eos do all the work. DPS are expected to pull their weight in content; it’s unfair for tanks and heals to “get away with” or “get a pass” for doing the bare minimum when they can strive to do more. They obviously aren’t addressing players that are fresh to the game, or fresh to a role, but to players that have been playing the game/role for long enough to know when they’re being lazy and when they’re pulling their weight.

In content with people that have been playing long enough to know the difference between lazy play and not-lazy play, they should all opt for the not-lazy play and pull their weight. Trust me, a lot of players know when they’re pulling their weight and when they’re being lazy, and a lot actively choose to do one or the other. The only time laziness stems from ignorance is in a fresh player, and people are far more lenient towards them so long as they show willingness to improve, and not to continue being lazy.

If you are new to a piece of content or to a role, just say so. People will be far more accommodating towards you than if you say nothing at all.

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Originally Posted by KittyPr

i prefere a healer who doesn't DPS than a healer who doesnt know that he has Esuna
/discuss

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Here’s how this works:
Regen > Cure > Divine Benison > Stone IV > Stone IV > Stone IV > ....
“Oh no! The tank has a bleed debuff!”
Esuna > Stone IV > Stone IV > Cure II > Regen > ...

You can do both.

You can have Holy when you pry it from my broken fingers.

Here's the stark fact neither side would want to admit. But fact is fact despite anything they say, do, or feel. The DPS is the responsibility of whomever the group decides. Each group is different, so the responsibility varies from group to group.

Its that simple. If you're a healer that only heals, and the group thinks you should do damage. Damage or kick. If the group thinks you should only heal, Don't Damage or kick. Its a dictatorship of the majority and majority rules. Period. No amount of discussion, no amount of threads, no amount of hurt feelings in these forums will change that fact.

You only get a say if your group agrees with you. Otherwise its do as you're told or leave. That's the fact.

I've got my own opinion on the matter. Probably even agree with most of you here. But guess what? Even my opinion is eclipsed by the fact. My own opinion is irrelevant to the fact. And so is everyone else's.

I just did an expert and I was actually so happy. The WHM I knew wasnt super confident on dpsing but they did!! DRG did crazy amount of dps same with the smn. The best part is we ran it fairly quick, we were already done with second boss when we only been 7min into the dungeon. I never expect anyone to play as good as they did, but honestly it's been a while I've seen melee dps aoe a lot, like the DRG did and a smn who actually use bane and aoe. This is something I love to see and honestly I was fine with how the WHM ACTUALLY TRIED to do some damage. Mad respect for that.

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Originally Posted by Hruodig

Tank 1 can hold aggro and mitigate content perfectly well, while doing 3500ish dps.

Tank 2 also holds aggro and mitigates, while doing 2500 dps.

Which tank is preferable to have in your party?

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I don't have a dps addon to be able to tell the difference....

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

I don't have a dps addon to be able to tell the difference....

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Check if they are on DPS stance or not. If they are, they are already dealing more damage than being on tank stance. If you are playing healer, you can tell if they are rotating cd just right, based on the damage they are taking. If you're playing DPS, use emnity reducing tools if you see you're about to out-aggro the tank.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

If the group thinks you should only heal, Don't Damage or kick.

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Not going to lie, I'll welcome that kick happily. I am not your healbot.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

Its that simple. If you're a healer that only heals, and the group thinks you should do damage. Damage or kick. If the group thinks you should only heal, Don't Damage or kick. Its a dictatorship of the majority and majority rules. Period. No amount of discussion, no amount of threads, no amount of hurt feelings in these forums will change that fact..

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Its a dictatorship of the majority and majority rules, I don't think your understand what a dictatorship is, That democracy.

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Originally Posted by Lilseph

Check if they are on DPS stance or not. If they are, they are already dealing more damage than being on tank stance. If you are playing healer, you can tell if they are rotating cd just right, based on the damage they are taking. If you're playing DPS, use emnity reducing tools if you see you're about to out-aggro the tank.

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wow, you really missed the point.
I don't care if a tank is doing slightly more dps.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Not going to lie, I'll welcome that kick happily. I am not your healbot.

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I personally don't care what you do. If you want to do damage that's your business. Bit what I want is irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by Kewitt

Its a dictatorship of the majority and majority rules, I don't think your understand what a dictatorship is, That democracy.

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Dictatorship of the majority is not democracy in the sense you are used to. Democracy implies discussion and debate. When was the last time you had a group in a PUG discuss group responsibilities? The group's will is dictated to the minority.

Believe me when I say its not the most favorable situation for anyone. That's why everyone makes thread after thread about it. But arguing about it is pointless. When we wanted fast and easy AI controlled group matching, this is the by product of it. So we reap what we sow.

It depends.
For more than 90% of casual content, yes dps is for dps only.
10% like current toughest raid, it doesn't. DPS is the job of all tank healer dps combined.
It's that simple.

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Originally Posted by Hruodig

Tank 1 can hold aggro and mitigate content perfectly well, while doing 3500ish dps.

Tank 2 also holds aggro and mitigates, while doing 2500 dps.

Which tank is preferable to have in your party?

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Tank 2 they're easier on the healer to keep up.

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Originally Posted by kidalutz

Tank 2 they're easier on the healer to keep up.

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So the healer can DPS right?

...or waste more GCDs doing nothing?

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Originally Posted by kidalutz

Tank 2 they're easier on the healer to keep up.

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How? Hroudig said they both mitigate damage. How would Tank 2 be easier to heal?