I would say self heals on DRK are way better. I watch DRK's struggle in dungeons but as soon as they Optimize their buffs then DRK is very self sustaining. Now Raids may be a difference but still DASE is a nice self heal that is every 3 GCD's which is better than the other tanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising
That self heal is only available in tank stance but it is players pushing the meta that we should stay in DPS stance not the way the class is designed.
A challenge to Naoki "Yoshi-P" Yoshida
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12-01-2017, 04:28 AMWintersandman
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12-01-2017, 05:00 AMwhiskeybravoIt's not better than war as storm's path self heal is active outside of defiance. DRK has a really nice self heal for aoe situations in DAAD, but if we're talking about tank stance then DRK is still pretty far behind because war has Inner Beast, Steel Cyclone and Equilibirum for self-heals in tank stance, along with the storm's path self heal, and even Thrill of Battle if it's not being used to buff Upheaval.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wintersandman
So both playing in or out of tank stance doesn't matter, DRK is relatively behind. 1 heal out / 2 heals in (tank stance). War as 1 heal out / 4 in (2/5 if we count TOB). PLD just has Clemency, which is obviously powerful, but comes at an expense of damage output which the other tanks don't necessarily have to worry about (with regards to self-healing). Though it's not technically a self-heal, I would say there is a significant edge to TBN, as shielding damage outright is always preferred to healing up damage taken. -
12-01-2017, 05:07 AMWintersandmanBut War IB and Steel Cyclone are both tied to Rage which is 6 GCD's just to get one heal. So really it is IB or Steel Cyclone.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
I am not saying that DRK doesn't need improvements but to say it can't stay up is a fallacy as I had no issues 60-70 in dungeons. -
12-01-2017, 05:29 AMHyoMinParkJust want to say that just because you didn't have any issues doesn't mean they don't exist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wintersandman
DA+AD spam is not nearly as spammable as it was back in HW since the nerf to Blood Price. You can get out maybe 2-3 now but before you could spam it for the entire BP duration with a well-sized pack. -
12-01-2017, 05:44 AMwhiskeybravoYes, but you're only in either an AOE or ST situation, so as war you have a self heal for either. You aren't going to DAAD a single target just for the self heal. I haven't played DRK enough recently to know exactly, but there's a cap to the number of DAAD you can execute at any given time as well. It's very MP intensive and you need about as many GCDs (sans BP/BW) to build the MP back up as you do to build rage on war. No? Even if you have all your buffs up and can spam them back to back to back.. So can war. Where is DRK's advantage?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wintersandman
Aside from that, the only real issue with DRK in dungeons is they are lacking a bit in their mitigation kit compared to PLD/WAR. They simply do not have as many CDs available. Doesn't mean they drop dead every pull, but when you have all 3 leveled it's a pretty obvious disparity. However, that's not the issue. The main concern is what they bring to a raid group, which right now is nothing that the other 2 tanks don't already do better. -
12-01-2017, 06:15 AMWintersandmanI get 4-5 off as you get enough Blood to use Queitus or Delirium. Once you have both then I have gotten up to 6 on a pack before but I will also weave in a syphon strike here or there just so I can DAAD more. I would also rather go Hard, Syphon, DA + AD as it will regain more health and do more damage than completing the SE combo on a pack of 4 or greater. So while yes it isn't spammable you can still get it off every 3 GCD's depending on your rotation.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
One Syphon Strike in Grit returns enough MP for a DA. So you can DASE every 3 gcds for a self heal. So if you want to compare warrior over a 7 GCD span you have 890 potency self healing with warrior (SP for 270 x 2 + 350) and DRK at 880 (DASE is 440 x 2) with one GCD into the next self heal. If we want to compare it over 21 GCD's you will have 3,080 potency in self healing on DRK and 2,670 on WAR. Using a 2.5s GCD at 60 seconds using equilibrium is where you start to notice some differences and where war pulls ahead with DRK at 3520 and WAR 4140. These numbers are just raw potency because (a portion of health) is too hard to define.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
Like I said previously. I am not saying DRK doesn't have issues they just aren't as bad as saying "I can't run Doma Castle because I am tooo squishy". -
12-01-2017, 06:26 AMChrono_RisingDark Knight certainly spams more than Warrior, I agree with this completely. However, if you look at steel cyclone it is 200 potency without a damage penalty, where as Dark Knight Abyssal Drain does have a damage penalty in tank stance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wintersandman
AD has an effective potency of about 115 in tank stance.
SC has a base potency of 200, but with their 20% buff and 30% buff the effective potency for the AOE is cranked up to 312.
This means that SC is restoring 171% more HP than AD, being able to fill your beast guage to 100 and have infuriate means you can hit this three times while fully buffed. Though we might spam AD twice as often in ideal conditions, SC restores more than twice the amount of HP in its ideal conditions.
For the warrior those ideal conditions will also line up once a minute. For the dark knight those ideal conditions are going to line up every two minutes.
This is without touching Equilibrium, ToB, or hitting their combo for HP refills.
I tend to feel warrior has many more ways of restoring its hp in tank stance than dark knight both in AOE and ST situations. -
12-01-2017, 06:47 AMWintersandmanAbout every 2 AD you can get a Queitus off which changes it. The 2 minutes are only if you're lining up with Delirium. On AoE packs (5 or more) it is also better to save the DA to continue to AD than DACS and CS returns generally enough mana to get off an AD. Especially if you weave it into a partial SE combo for Syphon Strike.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising
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12-01-2017, 06:54 AMChrono_RisingYes, I don’t disagree with the priorities you are setting. It doesn’t change the fact that the ideal for selfsustain is under delirium which is on a two minute timer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wintersandman
Warriors on SC alone are restoring the effect of 2.7 AD. Not to mention that warriors will not break their combos in ideal conditions. To spam AD you actually want to stop using SE cutting away some of your self sustain. And warrior still has cooldowns for selfsustain once all this is finished.
Warrior definitely has better selfsustain over Dark Knight. -
12-01-2017, 07:01 AMWintersandmanI am also not disagreeing that DRK couldn't use some adjustments. I just disagree that it is unplayable which this whole thread is about. I have only seen some good suggestions to changing DRK but the rest are just OP or return it to 3.0.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising
Also you are ignoring that you can DA + AD every 3 GCDS which I already stated you would cutoff SE to use AD. Also realistically you would be at 3 AD by the time you got off one SC. 9 GCD to get off 3 AD if you are weaving in Syphon and not spamming DA AD. With 7 GCDs for an SC. So 312 WAR vs 345 DRK with the potencies you referenced above. Yes you can add in Storm's path but the equivalency diminshes as it is ST based on the number of enemies.
If anything I would like to see BP and BW be usable in any condition. Also BW should be equivalent to Berserk as a Damage buff and not just a timer/tp reduction.
Also make Passenger a TP ability instead of MP and remove the DA requirement. -
12-01-2017, 07:35 AMChrono_RisingI agree that it is viable for all content, DRKoftheAzure would have to tell us themselves what the point of this post is I'm not trying to take a guess. My point is that dark knight is below the other tanks. My responses here to you is that warrior's selfsustain is in a better position than dark knights.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wintersandman
But you are losing about 1000 mana every time you do this (maybe partially mitigated by blood price), eventually you need to quietus or siphon extra times to refill adding in extra GCDs. This also drops quickly if you ever need to use The Blackest Night.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wintersandman
Tomahawk -> Infuriate -> Gauge build. 1 GCD to prep SC which I would hold while you build more gauge. The reason for gauge building is that Steel cyclone can restore a huge amount of HP, which means you have time to sit on this one while you build gauge and accumulate damage. While you build that gauge you are building HP with your combo which is an added bonus because while you build your mana on dark you get nothing for your HP. Meanwhile you still have Equilibrium on a 1 minute cool down if you are slightly behind on HP and then still Thrill of battle which is around an 14k heal if you are super desperate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wintersandman
Also you are comparing 312 on 7 GCDs to 345 on 9 GCDs (ignoring added heals from combo of course?) on a GCD to GCD basis is a 9 potency difference in favor of war per GCD not adding in 107 potency from doing at least one combo ender, though this is ST so that should be kept in mind. -
12-01-2017, 08:22 AMAana
If your talking best case scenario of 100 gauge+infuriate up+ eye combo up then sure, its pretty sexy. But I can assure you wars aren't running through dungeon packs with 100 gauge +infuriate and setting up with 3gcd single target before we start. That is a WHOLE lot of prep. getting 100 gauge without using infuriate on packs? That just means the previous pack you did nothing but ST for gauge. Its unrealistic. Gather with tom+OPs. get eye up, then spam Overpower. Use infuriate as able. Run to next pack. Theres no reasonable opportunity to build gauge in OP spam on AOE packs besides 1 eye combo per pack. Between the 1st eye and finishing off the last straggler you build about 50 gauge for your next pack or your party is lame and stagger killing everything so you are forced to ST down like 2 mobs instead of getting everything dead at once. Your doing around 2 cyclones a pack unless you sack your OP aoe damage to build gauge or your party is just not AOEing properly. Either way, more gauge is a sign of your party being inefficient and weird than anything.
You don't really 'spam' cyclone in dungeons because youre to busy spamming no-gauge gaining overpowers for most of it. Single target gauge building for your best case scenario in mob pulls just isn't optimal play at all.
With all that said, both war/drk have pretty darn good aoe sustain. They have always been the dungeon heros and now they are both back to kicking pld's ass at something with the cyclone change. -
12-01-2017, 09:09 AMChrono_Rising
I don't play warrior enough to know this answer, but this is one of the places where I wonder how healer DPS factors into this. I know from healing some very good warriors I'm able to really spam AOE more than usual.
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12-01-2017, 09:35 AMAanaI think that has more to do with the high uptime physical leaning CD suite on wars more than cyclone spam. outside of raids in big pulls the option to use dance+awareness instead of shirk/reprisal makes for quite the insane suite to rotate. Conv+Thrill>Awareness+RI>Ramp+Dance>Vengence in any order/combo. Mix in equal, cyclones for sustain. War is a beast in dungeons. Drk's sustain in dungeons is pretty friggin sick with DAAD spam, but its notable lack of high uptime fluff mitigation is much more noticable in dungeons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising
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12-01-2017, 09:56 AMWintersandmanIn the most optimal scenario WAR's may excel. DRK's self sustain is part of their normal rotation. WAR's is not. Once aggro is established all DRK's do is self sustain for AoE and ST and it is part of their normal AoE rotation. Which is why I used raw potencies and didn't include Berserk because it is a CD and may not always be up and like Aana said you wouldn't be spamming SC the entire time. TBN usage will be based upon if Mitigation > Self healing for the mana usage and it may very depending on pack size and what the incoming damage is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising
So while War has high potential for self healing in reality boils down to other mitigation techniques where that's what DRK was designed to do. Let's also point out the classes weren't designed to be tanking in dps stance the entire time. They were designed to be Tank stance for their mitigation which is why Bloodspiller almost has no positive bonus in and out of Grit (~20 potency difference). This is also probably why we saw the removal of Bloodbath from warrior because Decimate and Overpower spam keeping warriors up. -
12-01-2017, 01:57 PMChrono_RisingThough dark knights self sustain is part of their optimal aoe, their ability to keep themselves up is still surpassed by warrior. I will admit that it might not be optimal, I'm not convinced on it not being optimal on the basis of healer dps gain, and that is partly because of warrior's being able to do so much selfsustain in their rotation. As far as I've always understood in trash pulls the order goes dps>healer>tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wintersandman
You did count delirium and C&S in your break down of dark, its only reasonable to include berserk when looking at warrior. Also, you don't necessarily need to run into battle with full gauge on warrior, infuriate at the beginning or very end of a pull is a thing. Saving 50 gauge to do SC over a ST Inner Beast is definately a dps gain.
And as Aana, and now you, have pointed out part of the equation which is being ignored is mitigation, which warrior has huge advantages in tank stance here as well.
I have no idea why you are bringing up tanking out of stance at this point. As far as I can tell no one has said anything about being out of stance. I'm also very confused about why we are talking about HW now where warrior was definitely the top of self-sustain. Out of stance with single target warrior will out self-heal a dark knight any day of the week. -
12-02-2017, 02:22 AMWintersandmanWhiskeyBravo did bring up out of stance on page 5. Also since you factored in Berserk what would the potencies be over a 2 minute period? I would love to see the math breakdown. Because you used 312 as a baseline for SC which only lasts 15 seconds. The rest of the time it is 240. Which it may or may not be up. With Queitus (not on cooldown) you generally get enough back to do a DAAD (of course this depends on pack size). So you can exclude delirium.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising
Why I brought up HW is because out of stance was brought up by WhiskeyBravo and why I also believe that SE only attached the HP gain to SC as an illustration that the self sustain is only intended to be used in Tank Stance. Also because if we are to look at the Player Meta this is where DRK falls really behind.
Like I said in an earlier post. The class isn't unplayable but not saying it doesn't need improvements. -
12-02-2017, 03:05 AMwhiskeybravo
Eh, I only really mentioned it because you can DAAD outside of grit, which is better than any self heal a war has in deliverance. But once you factor in tank stance war clearly overtakes drk in self healing abilities. There probably wasn't a need to bring it up as long as we are assuming most tanks are casually tanking large pulls in dungeons in tank stance anyways.
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12-02-2017, 03:20 AMWintersandmanActually I was referring to only SE being available in Tank Stance and not DAAD out of Grit. This was also where I stated that class design and meta are in conflict. I was referencing in dungeon runs if a DRK isn't using DASE or DAAD they are like cottonball tanks. I have had to educate numerous DRK's on their rotations because a lot are so concerned because of the initial burst on RDM they just PS. Not even DAPS either. That once I tell them to DASE or DAAD their survivability increases along with Healer's not sweating as much. It wasn't meant to become a pissing match which is better and more as an educational post about rotation.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
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12-02-2017, 03:48 AMChrono_RisingOk I worked out the first two minutes of game play without ever touching berserk. However, I included mp and blood gains for dark knight at generous values to assume we could quietus every time we needed to equal out our mp.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wintersandman
Dark Knight Self healing: 1440n where n is the number of targets over a 2 minute interval.
Warrior Self Healing: 2160n where n is the number of targets over a 2 minute interval.
Warrior notes and assumptions: Now the warrior rotation as noted is not optimal for personal dps, though it may be optimal for party dps. The healing factor DOES NOT include healing from path, equilibrium, or Thrill of Battle or additional effects from berserk, for this purpose I pretend they don't exist on my hot bar and start my encounter at 0 gauge. These are the least friendly assumptions to warrior self heal I felt I could make while be extremely friendly to dark knight starting them at maximum MP and guage.
Once again what is very clear using excel is that Dark Knight can use abyssal drain about twice for every steel cyclone, but even at base potency warrior gets extra uses from infuriate and extra path combos result in a slightly higher usage of SC, and the heal factor from steel cyclone is a bit more than twice abyssal drain even without using berserk.
Lastly Berserk is 20 seconds, not 15. Also just as a quick corollary the warrior does more aoe damage in the same interval.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wintersandman
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12-02-2017, 04:02 AMWintersandmanBut you can get two AD with in one SC. It is also fair to include blood gauge since it is the equivalent of beast guage. It takes 7 GCD to get off an SC. 6 GCD to get off two AD. If you want it to be balanced you could say that it takes 7 GCD to get off two AD and include weaving in a Quietus. In a 120 Second span you will be able to execute ~ 48 GCD's devided If you move up to 49 GCD's so a 122.5 second span for easier math. Every two AD I return about 50 Blood guage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising
You get WAR 1,680N (200 x 1.2 for Storm's Eye = 240) 240 x 7 = 1,680
Get get DRK 115 x 2 = 230 over 7 GCD's 230 x 7 = 1,610 -
12-02-2017, 04:11 AMChrono_RisingUse excel and map out the entire two minutes like I did, then doubt the results.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wintersandman
You aren't taking into account that you don't always go path to eye or that infuriate is a free Steel Cyclone. There are remainders of beast gauge they add up and you end up getting an extra one or two steel cyclones.
For Dark Knight, the 3 GCD rotations needs a 4rth step every once in a while to refill mp (you lose an abyssal drain each 3 GCD abyssal drain) so you end up spacing out some of those in two minutes. The result is in warrior's favor, WITHOUT including 1 minute buffs to healing like berserk and equilibrium, or two minute buffs like ToB or the rotation to build guage giving you some HP back that doesn't exist on Dark Knight. -
12-02-2017, 04:16 AMWintersandmanWhy not just create a Google Doc and share? Then I can see your results.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising
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12-02-2017, 04:18 AMChrono_RisingBecause I don't want to put my real life identity on the forums and it is very easy to make the excel spreadsheet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wintersandman
Here are the rules I used:
Warrior: Don't cap on gauge and end at 0 for next pull or as close as possible, spend on Steel Cyclone.
Dark Knight: Don't bottom out on mana, have 100% for next pull. Did not balance gauge end at whatever value you want I assumed it would just refill naturally with blood price (a very bad assumption).
The end result clearly shows warrior will out self-sustain a dark knight and do more damage, personally it isn't "optimal" for their own damage, but they still do more damage doing this than if they were a dark knight filling the same role, and the healer will likely enjoy this as well being able to AOE far more than normal (especially when paired with warrior mitigation).
Reasoning Confirmed by Excel Spreadsheet: Warrior can Steel Cyclone about half as much as Dark Knight can Abyssal Drain, but it heals for more than twice as much. Infuriate also gives two free Steel Cyclones in that two minutes which is what puts warrior a head. This does not include Berserk, ToB or Equilibrium or the self heals from the warrior's gauge building rotation. Conclusion: Warrior has better self-sustain. The excel spread sheet over 2 minutes just confirms this reasoning. -
12-02-2017, 06:20 AMWintersandmanUnderstood. I just wanted to more see/hear your logic as we could have different results instead of it is X.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising
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12-05-2017, 01:14 AMAana
Yall are overcomplicating this.
*Single target war has more self heal via path/equal easily.
*AOE out of tank stance, Drk for obvious reasons.
*AOE in tank stance highly variable. Drk has reliable sustain as part of optimal play. War requires doing single target combos to do an AOE cyclone instead of just spamming OP.
When unchained/zerk is up I highly doubt 1-2 more cyclones in a pack allows healer to do more than 120pot x 1.2 maim x 1.3 zerk= 187 pot/gcd. With just zerk/maim its 149. Maim only 115. Each additional cyclone requires (almost) 6 GCDs to get 240 pot (with maim) for the 7th. Those same (Maim only) 7 gcds of OP is 806 pot to all enemies vs 2 single target path combos+240 cyclone. That's with just maim. Zerk (1048), unchained+Zerk (1310) potency per target. This all even assumes your random scrubby healer is DPSing and further more that they are leveraging your additional healing to get and extra GCD or 2 instead of just overcuring you. The safe bet (in a pug anyway) is just use more overpowers. You will practically always have zerk up for every big pull and unchained every other. Also worth noting, cyclone gets no unchained bonus so it doesn't scale for those mega pulls with zerk+unchained as much.
TLDR: Theres going to be some magic number of enemies where single target+Cyclone looses out to overpower+fewer cyclone. N will vary if your healer leverages your cyclone heals and has powerful aoe of their own (like holy) and your current buffs up. What the exact N is, im not personally interested enough to math out as I do about 1 dungeon every 2 weeks these days lol.
But the bottom line why war 'feels' like it has more sustain is because it mitigates more damage on giant mob pulls of physical damage. No because it has some obscene aoe level of sustain. If every mob pack were elementals drk would feel 'sturdier' than war. Dungeon survival is Mitigation x Sustain. War has more physical fluff mitigation on lower timers with longer duration so their sustain goes farther on higher defenses. This plays out extremely in war's favor with a near constant stream of fluff damage for 15-20 min in dungeons. -
12-09-2017, 12:56 AMChrono_Rising
I spent the last week running level 70 dungeons on my warrior. It has been a good experience on the whole. I have one or two notes of value to this discussion:
(1) The idea that Warrior should spend its time spamming overpower throughout the entire encounter with trash will drain your TP extremely quickly. And if you are the type of tank who sprints between pulls, you don't have a lot of time to regenerate TP for the next pull without an input of TP from your party (some type of TP regen and in all of the runs I never got one). I found it best to overpower a few times with unchained and Berserk (maim assumed) and use infuriate at the start to make sure I can have a steel cyclone in a pinch. To stay sustainable for the next pull I frequently found myself going into warriors self sustain combo to stabilize and even regenerate TP.
Despite underplaying the role self-sustain combo of warrior, it is really good in practice.
(2) Equilibrium is really great, both as initial snap aggro while pulling between mobs, and during pull for return HP.
(3) Warrior Cooldowns and the synergy between its tank stance, Convalescence, and Largesse lead to extremely high regens. When you do get that DPSing healer who works with their cooldowns the regen HP is significantly higher than the other tanks, and they can really capitalize on this.
Having experimented with how much HP I can restore to myself it definitely appears that warrior is ahead in my experiments.
(4) Running with a friend who is a healer and almost only DPS's the optimal group damage appears to favor healers. -
12-09-2017, 06:46 AMAana
I never find myself running out of TP in dungeons spamming OP constantly with rare exceptions like multi-wave sections like the goblins+bombs in that Yojimbo dungeon where adds spawn after you kill the pulled set extending the encounter. But I will often (towards the end of a pull when there isn't much left) drop defiance and pop equal for TP. There are really only 2 pulls between bosses in most cases and the equal for TP between pulls works well for that. Non-issue if someone gives you TP though. Maybe I just don't often get very aggressive healers. I cant remember the last time a healer out DPSed me in a dungeon, but I usually just solo cue instead of cueing with my FC healers or whatever.
I didn't mean to dispute that war CANT restore more HP than drk for AOEs in tank stance. Its more of a question of if that defensive style of play is optimal in the DPS>all world, but that seems to mostly depend on how much damage your healer does. If pugging, I don't really have high expectations lol. -
12-09-2017, 06:57 AMChrono_Rising100% agree. I generally don't assume I'll get a dpsing healer in pugs. I had to rely on healers I know personally to get that data, only 1 or 2 runs had a healer who would spam their holy and dots.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aana