I think Square Enix and/or the DEVs hate mages! (Long post)

If we're just looking at a soloing perspective, then CNJ isn't too bad as it's MP regen spells have a generous enough cooldown but it's impossible to deny that THM has serious problems.

Having to stand still to regen MP more than actually fighting is a horrible gameplay mechanic, and it boggles my mind that there's so many people defending it. If you're trying to solo leves then it's inevitable that you're going to be waiting on your MP to regen at some point.

Arguably an even worse issue is when you hit 0MP mid-battle. At that point you are boned as the enemy will be hitting you and preventing you from regenerating any MP, so you have no other option but to flee then come back when you've gained MP. You could argue that "You just have to be smart with MP!" but sometimes this situation is impossible to avoid when you have a continuous assault of enemies, your MP just plummets too fast.

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Originally Posted by Estellios

Maybe the playstyles just aren't for you. I find CNJ to be extremely active if I do everything I can in a group.

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I love playing mages. And I solo play. So with the updates Square Enix has done they've killed that for the most part. And yes I know hoe to play CNJ and THM. There both at LV 50 So I can get the best of both classes together.

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Originally Posted by Dreadnought

I just dont see extreme MP management as either fun nor strategic since all you do is pace your nukes, quite slowly at that.

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A'MEN!

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Originally Posted by Delmontyb

The mage changes have been great, and I really enjoy playing both Con and Thm now. I think you might want to hunt down some better gear, add some MP+ materia to it and go on from there.

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I use a Jade Crook+2, Full Harlequin's gear! (Head, Body, Belt Legs) Warlocks Pattens, Boarskin Ringband, plus my Rings, necklace and earring...I think my gear is fine.

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Originally Posted by Mikita

My humble opinion... The devs may not hate mages, but things are more frustrating now.

Solo play

Solo has gotten quite a bit more difficult for mages due to MP and spell changes.

We quickly run out of MP and then can't do anything except run away, or stand there motionless and get pounded on while our MP slowly trickles back.

For example:

To complete the "Alive" quest, as a R50 Conjurer I had to fight R40 Garleans which should be really simple.

But despite using the disruptor, they would summon more soldiers and I quickly ran out of MP after defeating about 4 or 5 of them (only using the Fire based spells because they are the only AoE attack magic we have left).

- Sacred Prism's (AoE conversion) recast is too long for solo battles.

- Having a fully charged Blissful Mind ready also gives 1 or maybe 2 more attack spell casts.

Unless I'm missing something, what else can we do for MP management in this case?

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I think you hit the nail on the head! I fully agree with you, that solo play for Mages is lacking and has been made harder. And despite what others say about MP management and strategy .... There isn't any.

I fail to see how solo play for mages is lacking, mostly due to the fact that when they pore out the damage burning through MP they can cream anything even several levels over them so fast the only take minimul damage at best.

As far as your comment about there not being any stratagy about MP management. Well, thats why you have so much trouble with solo play. While so many others know how to use the sleep abilities and CC to manage time to regen MP or take on multiple enemies, or use the MP regen abilities we have, your not doing that.

With yor comments about how you loved playing mages having been "killed by SE for you" It sems more applicable that the comments others made for you may apply. Seems strange for you to state how much you love playing mages in this game to state they game play is killed for you and to see how many issues you have with them. It appears more likely that the playstyles previously were for you and the ones now may not be. Perhaps the Jobs will again change that for you in a posotive way.

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Originally Posted by Conradus

Wow. You so thoroughly don't understand your own class that it's difficult to take any of your complaints seriously.

Sacred Prism only affects healing and enhancement spells, causing them to hit your entire party. It has no use in solo battles.

Both Aerora and Stonera are AoE when not used in a combo.

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You're right.
They changed so much in 1.20 that I still don't understand Conjurer or Thaumaturge very much anymore. And I should study the patch notes better. That's what I get for being too casual a player.

You're right about both Sacred Prism and Aerora and Stonera.
Does it make lack of MP management for solo play any better?

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Originally Posted by UmJammerSully

If we're just looking at a soloing perspective, then CNJ isn't too bad as it's MP regen spells have a generous enough cooldown but it's impossible to deny that THM has serious problems.

Having to stand still to regen MP more than actually fighting is a horrible gameplay mechanic, and it boggles my mind that there's so many people defending it. If you're trying to solo leves then it's inevitable that you're going to be waiting on your MP to regen at some point.

Arguably an even worse issue is when you hit 0MP mid-battle. At that point you are boned as the enemy will be hitting you and preventing you from regenerating any MP, so you have no other option but to flee then come back when you've gained MP. You could argue that "You just have to be smart with MP!" but sometimes this situation is impossible to avoid when you have a continuous assault of enemies, your MP just plummets too fast.

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I was running around as 42 THM the other day getting chain 5 solo against 47 mobs, MP is not as much of an issue as people think. I will support the "You just have to be smart with MP!" argument any day of the week vs. having the spells cost less and be less potent.

Yes, sometimes you will hit 0 MP, I'm fairly certain that's what SE intended when they made the MP bar go down when you cast spells. It is very easy to take into account though, by knowing your spell costs, how many spells you'll need to succeed.

Yes, sometimes it will happen in the middle of fighting mobs. I am fairly certain that's why SE added "death" functionality into the game, to let players know "hey, you bit off a bit more than we intended you to there".

Sorry Katt, that post was meant for BlackRose, not for you.

As far as solo MP goes: Use Featherfoot, Second wind, and Sanguine Rite, especially the last one once your Stoneskin wears off. Go into active mode, your shield blocks or staff parries will help quite a bit.

On CNJ, consistenly use Shroud of Saints whenever it's up and cycle through Blissful mind and use it whenever you've lost at least 500-600 mp.

Also, gear-wise, Harlequin is fairly poor compared to new crafted gear especially since it can't slot Materia. If you have a dated Jade Crook get a current one and slot some Magic Attack on it for soloing. Pretty much gear up for Magic Attack if you're going to solo, and keep Cleric Stance up at all times. Also make sure to pick up one of the elemental ringbands.

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Originally Posted by Katt

I use a Jade Crook+2, Full Harlequin's gear! (Head, Body, Belt Legs) Warlocks Pattens, Boarskin Ringband, plus my Rings, necklace and earring...I think my gear is fine.

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What's your Max MP then? I'm just curious because we both play CON and THM at level 50 and I can solo mobs with ease. I really enjoy THM, when one on one, I stick with the first two thunder spells. When fighting a group (So far have taken down 10 mobs at once) I stick with the fire group of spells. I make sure to pop my buffs before I use a third tier spell, and can damage mobs 2500 etc. I typically solo mobs -4/+2 from my level. I'll take some tarts with me to give me a little more MP boost, and ethers in case I need to get off one last spell.

I enjoy the effects of refresh, but they aren't that dynamic, and I don't have any trouble with MP. If I'm not careful and don't pay attention I can burn though it quite fast, so I make sure to keep using my buffs (which I build as an all in one macro).

I'm personally looking forward to when they release more mage classes as it will mean more abilities and spells to further diversify the mages. I'm sorry you are having such issues playing the game, but if anything I hope my strategy helps somewhat.

Edit: FYI... Looking up your gear you are getting at most +22 MP from all that gear, (not counting rings since you didn't list what they were) (Mine are Mind+ or INT+ so I'm assuming yours are too) from that fact, you could get some much more MP if you used gear with 1 materia attached. I've even got a lower level robe 31+ that had + 82MP just for the robe itself.

Consider this, refresh your gear, get some materia MP+ and other status, and add that to your weapon, robe, etc. You could easily increase your MP by 90+ with some high level materia. And also look for gear that already has MP bonus to it. While my Con sits around 2900MP, my THM is at 3200MP :) (I'll have to double check those numbers, for some reason I logged out as my Carp last night. :S)

I have no idea how people are saying they have MP issues solo, I've leveled Thaum 10-50 solo/duo and doing the same with Conjurere...MP is the last thing I need to worry about.

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Originally Posted by UmJammerSully

If we're just looking at a soloing perspective, then CNJ isn't too bad as it's MP regen spells have a generous enough cooldown but it's impossible to deny that THM has serious problems.

Having to stand still to regen MP more than actually fighting is a horrible gameplay mechanic, and it boggles my mind that there's so many people defending it. If you're trying to solo leves then it's inevitable that you're going to be waiting on your MP to regen at some point.

Arguably an even worse issue is when you hit 0MP mid-battle. At that point you are boned as the enemy will be hitting you and preventing you from regenerating any MP, so you have no other option but to flee then come back when you've gained MP. You could argue that "You just have to be smart with MP!" but sometimes this situation is impossible to avoid when you have a continuous assault of enemies, your MP just plummets too fast.

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Finally someone understands this problem!! Every time I solo or party, doesn't matter, I always run out of mp quickly. I NEVER had this issue before the last update or two.

MP restoring spells that I have as a THM don't do crap. And I loathe the idea of needing other abilities from other classes in order to help solve a broken mechanic. (which they still don't help much).

As for that MP management argument, seriously, what the hell are you guys doing to do that effectively? Taking a long break between spells while the monster smacks you, to restore a tiny amount of MP?? As far as I can tell, no one should have to resort to that. It's ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Zeref

why can't I cast tier 2 Wind and Stone spells without being on a ConJ? that makes zero sense, especially since CONj now is a dedicated healer.

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...because CNJ is NOT a dedicated healer. WHM is, we just haven't gotten patch 1.21 to unlock it yet.

Also to those whining about MP management: If SE lowers spell cost, then they will also have to lower the damage they do. Many who have figured out how to play the classes currently on battles like Ifrit and Moogle have realized, Dang! THM blows stuff UP! In order to keep it so that THM/BLM and even CNJ to some extent can keep the high spike damage, they NEED to have to rest MP at times. It's a game balancing mechanic. Lastly, just because you need to stand still to rest mp efficiently, doesn't mean mages can't (or shouldn't) move. Practice playing the classes more and you'll see it's not as bad as you think. Also, the game is STILL being re-developed.

So you have to take the current classes with a grain of salt and remember, once we get patch 1.21, most party play done post level 30 WILL be done with JOBS not CLASSES. Therefore, Ifrit and Moogle were NOT designed to be done with our rank 50 classes but rather a party with rank 50 jobs. SE just made sure they were doable with classes so we could complete them in the meantime.

I am not leveled enough to determine how mp management is doing in the game, yet I know this will be a major focus for me later, as I am really stringent about managing mp and the above complaints/advice concern me for what is to come.

For what a nooblet's opinion on this matter is worth, my biggest and only complaint with mages is the boring casting animations. I sometimes can't tell my character is casting at the beginning of the cast if it were not for the lovely magics animation. I know this sort of thing is trivial along the list of more important fixes but for me, visuals are a huge part of my gaming experience.

Note: Perhaps this will change as he levels up and uses new spells, in the way other classes have new animations for new weapon skills or actions but I am uncertain. It does not have to be a dramatic choreographed dance like in Dragon Age but something more than just standing there barely moving his arm would be wonderful.

edit : I just discovered a topic more suitable for my post than here in this thread. I apologize for my error.

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Originally Posted by CrystalObsidian

MP restoring spells that I have as a THM don't do crap.

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I nearly choked on my drink when I read this. Parsimony is an epic ability when used properly; however, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and explain how I use it since I made the "MP Argument" above. Here's how I typically solo mobs while keeping MP up.

1. Use Thunder
2. Use Featherfoot (yes, the Pugilist ability, very low level).
3. Use Parsimony if it is up.
4. Use Thundara
5. If I didn't two shot it, finish it off with a Thunder.

By doing the above, you're getting MP back from Featherfoot most likely (120ish MP for me at 48 THM), and a free if not MP profitable Thundara (or if you're feisty you can use it on Thundaga, I've seen several hundred MP recovered this way). If you're trying to hit chain 5, take a small breather. Not talking minutes here, just enough to keep your MP high enough to start going all out on the chain 3+ mobs. Hitting chain 5 reliably requires a bit of pacing on the early mobs; however, you can do it fast enough to wipe them out before they respawn, which is a lot more than most jobs can do.

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As for that MP management argument, seriously, what the hell are you guys doing to do that effectively? Taking a long break between spells while the monster smacks you, to restore a tiny amount of MP?? As far as I can tell, no one should have to resort to that. It's ridiculous.

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You're right that no one should have to stand there getting beat on while they recover MP, or that anyone should draw hate for the implicit reason of proccing Featherfoot. Where you're wrong lies here (assuming you mean a party situation):

1. Why is the mob on you? The mob is on you, this is not supposed to happen. Answer: STOP NUKING

That's the entirety of it. You're a mage, SE intended for you to be very vulnerable. You can solve both the MP and hate issue by clocking back your nukes a bit. It may seem that you're doing less damage this way, but if properly paced you can keep the flow of nukes steady and eliminate any "sorry guys, gotta sit here for ages to regen MP" scenarios.

If you're getting continuous aggro then you just need to find a better camp or find a safe spot to pull enemies to, it's just that simple. You are going to need to have time to rest after a chain and possibly a tick or two between battles, which makes a much larger difference than you might think. You aren't supposed to be AOE nuking down multiple enemies at once in rapid succession like before (when nukes costed a laughable ~20 MP) unless they are under your level and you're farming. If you're solo XPing take advantage of Guildleves and especially Company Guildleves, the latter of which either give you your own personal instanced XP area or, in the case of the defense leves, generally give you ample time between waves to recover MP. Know how much Sleep spells/Sanguine rite costs for you and make sure you NEVER go under that amount so you have an out. And run away if you bite off more than you can chew.

If you haven't taken the time or just refuse to level other classes, you're only harming yourself if you really want to insist on soloing. The whole point to leaving the class system in this game is so you can solo and the biggest strength that Classes have over Jobs is the ability to cross-class, and if you don't take advantage of it than it's really your issue. Out of the abilities I listed earlier, 2 of them require you to take Pugilist to Level 6 which would take, at most, an afternoon. Sanguine Rite requires 30 THM, which if you insist on playing Mages only, you probably already have or will get eventually.

Also another thing that helped me immensely with thaum was realizing sound aggro mobs will not aggro if you are standing still or walking. Now I just kill my way into a thick nest of them and stand there nuking everything around me, using Resonance if they are out of reach. MP stays up much better this way as well, as there are many more opportunities for it to regen.

I have LVed up other classes, and what I'm trying to point out is missions like the one at the U'Ghamaro Mines. Going in at LV 50, and fighting Kobolds who's LVs are the same. It for the most part it can't be done. Even with using sleep, i can get twp or three of them killed before I have to stop and let my MP recover. By the time my MP has recovered and I moved on to the next one or two Kobolds the others that I killed respond.

And yes I'm using the two CNJ skills to regain my MP while fighting. The game has been re-done so much that Mages can't go out on there own for the most part and do the LV 50 missions.

Pretty sure that quest is meant to be done in a party... seeing as how the strongholds are party areas. U'Ghamoro is also, plain and simple, a pain in the ass of a zone for EVERYONE. Kobolds spam DoT spells which prevent you from recovering HP/MP at all.

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Originally Posted by Estellios

Pretty sure that quest is meant to be done in a party... seeing as how the strongholds are party areas. U'Ghamoro is also, plain and simple, a pain in the ass of a zone for EVERYONE. Kobolds spam DoT spells which prevent you from recovering HP/MP at all.

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This...

Also, not every Class/Job will be suited to killing every mob in game. Just like each Class/Job has it's strengths and weaknesses, so do mobs. If you are trying to kill these for exp, maybe look for a soft,squishy mob that has a low resistance to Magic Damage.

@Kinseykinz Kind of funny how youe missed the fact that I said that I did this at LV50. I can't gain XP from any kill since I'm already capped.

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Originally Posted by Katt

@Kinseykinz Kind of funny how youe missed the fact that I said that I did this at LV50. I can't gain XP from any kill since I'm already capped.

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Okay I should have been more specific Mr. Nit-pick. The exact thing you are trying to do is designed for party play not solo. In general however, if you find that you are having issues killing a mob efficiently, that is the same level as you, go find something else to kill or switch to a different class as it is probably resistant to your current classes attacks. Better?

One thing I forgot to add was not to forget to allocate your points you get per level. Drop some in PIE and enjoy a bit more MP.

@Kat
I also ran that solo, it was very tough, but I was able to complete the quest. It was a lot of fun, doing it solo, somewhat reminded me of the difficult zones in XI. ;)

@OP

Mages are one of the easiest jobs to level atm they destroy the right leve mobs and can take mobs several levels higher than them. Also you can aoe kill smaller groups for fast quick xp as well which is great for pling anyone as well. SE loves mages imo.

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Originally Posted by Katt

I have LVed up other classes, and what I'm trying to point out is missions like the one at the U'Ghamaro Mines. Going in at LV 50, and fighting Kobolds who's LVs are the same. It for the most part it can't be done. Even with using sleep, i can get twp or three of them killed before I have to stop and let my MP recover. By the time my MP has recovered and I moved on to the next one or two Kobolds the others that I killed respond.

And yes I'm using the two CNJ skills to regain my MP while fighting. The game has been re-done so much that Mages can't go out on there own for the most part and do the LV 50 missions.

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Assuming your refering to "Kobold and the Beautiful" quest, I smashed through this like it was nothing, with no complaints. So I call shannannagens on your complaining.

Last thing the NPC says to you as you accept the quest is:

Lilina: Your assistance is appreciated, but I must warn you, the region in which you will be traveling is wild and treacherous, and many of the caves there remain unexplored. I hardly need add that you will not be welcome in the kobolds' domain, so be sure to make the proper preparations before embarking on this quest. I recomend you employ the services of a few of your fellow adventurers. Oh, and might I recommend that you make Camp Iron Lake your base of operations? You will find it a convenient location to provision your party before entering the Mines.

And this is the base of your arguement that you cannot solo this quest, so clearly MP use and needs to be adjusted to suit you because of this.

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Originally Posted by Katt

@Kinseykinz Kind of funny how youe missed the fact that I said that I did this at LV50. I can't gain XP from any kill since I'm already capped.

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Yeah cause this snide snap at those trying to assist you when you clearly do not even comprehind the situation enough to understand why you can't finish a quest. You go on to use it as arguement that mages are flawed as a whole.......

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Originally Posted by Brigandier

1. Use Thunder
2. Use Featherfoot (yes, the Pugilist ability, very low level).
3. Use Parsimony if it is up.
4. Use Thundara
5. If I didn't two shot it, finish it off with a Thunder.

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In what mobs? Whats their level?
Sheeps (r40+) yes. Stronghold mobs (r50+) no.