Dear Tanks

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

The problem is the plethora of circular AoEs and PBAoEs that are too big to be outside of and still be within melee range of the target. Not usually a big deal in and of itself, but if you're fighting a large pack of mobs that spam those abilities and you're a melee DPS, prepare to have a bad time.

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That's just a problem OP is going to have to deal with, the decision comes with being a melee DPS. If he really wants to solve the issue, he can just play a ranged DPS, but apparently you need to be good at geometry to deal good DPS, according to OP.

Nonsensical.

DPS scales non-linearly for every class past the 3rd mob (the sweetspot for most classes to go full-on AoE) which results in less time taken overall to kill the same amount of targets.
Every class is capable of decent AoE to get this done in your 4-man runs. Every. single. one -- melee included.

While not everyone can be a BLM/RDM/SMN, every single class can adequately handle AoE.


If you want to clear room by room, in a tactical, controlled, manner -- go do it with people that want to do it like you.
Don't try and force or put down people who put efficiency over... whatever it is you're trying to argue.

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Originally Posted by virgil204

ok Tanks

I know pulling silly amounts of mobs in a dungeon. Makes you feel really tough.

1. You are a human being. you are not tough or brave cos you run in 20 mobs and cause your group to run in after you. Even if you could do that in real life most real life army soliders would call you dumb not brave

2. You are actually not the one that is doing anything valuable at best your spamming 1 aoe taunt and have run out of cool downs before even one mob is half way through it's health. No sirs then person actually doing the work is the healer. He is now under intense pressure to

2a. spam heal you
2b. not pull hate cos he's overhealing
2c. Heal the dps who are deserpately trying to avoid the numbers does the 20 mobs are shooting out every 2 seconds

the melee dps actually does a lot less dos cos they spend more time avoiding aoes.


All because you had to prove how tough you are to a bunch of strangers using fake names dressed as cats and midgets.

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Hi from a side tank and my g/f who main tank

I'm sorry that we've have been ridiculed for not doing big pulls to the point we have been, doing them the moment we load as people expect it.

1) blame the dps who tries to pull more. who tries to report us for MPK if we let them die.

2) blame the healer who tries to out pull us, who tries to report for MPK if we let them die.

3) blame the players who don't understand what "hi i'm new to a dungeon" means or who lack communication skills into asking for larger or small pulls.

we tanks are very sorry, but we can only take so much insult before we crack.


we don't do it to feel tough, we don't do it to feel empowered we do it from being forced to for so long.



joking aside, people can be rude in the game to tanks. I see it with my g/f who was a fresh tank when i met her 5 years ago. In her first post 50 dungeon AK, the healer insulted her to hell and high water all because my g/f wasn't speed pulling the dungeon. She was on ps3 at the time and did say it was her first time. healer stated she shoulda been a stain on the bed sheets. Stating she was bad because she didn't watch a video prior. (my g.f had no pc or smartphone at the time).

Almost every dungeon was her trying to be better, only for the dps or healer to run ahead and get more mobs. Forcing her to do something she was having trouble for. To this day she still tanks, and on and off gets hate from some dirt bag. I recall doing the SB castrum dungeon with the bane like final boss, the healer just up and let her die for no real reason. Too busy asking dps spells and not enough heals.

They didn't even apologies, or said it was a mistake just blamed her.

Luckily the youtube channel Work to game exists now which has been a huge help to her, and her confidence. And now she has better access to a pc, and even a smartphone. though she runs into a few bad apples, she still tries her best. She does enjoy tanking, just the insults she gets are not warranted.

Which is why i have limited pc access outside me going to work, she on it watching work to game videos trying to get better.

Hopefully its a DEAR HEALERS thread next :)

As a healer main for almost 6 years, I encourage tanks to pull more as long as they use cd's accordingly and know to sidestep aoe's. If I'm not healing, I'm dpsing. So I am always casting anyway.

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Originally Posted by Eylirria

Nonsensical.

DPS scales non-linearly for every class past the 3rd mob (the sweetspot for most classes to go full-on AoE) which results in less time taken overall to kill the same amount of targets.
Every class is capable of decent AoE to get this done in your 4-man runs. Every. single. one -- melee included.

While not everyone can be a BLM/RDM/SMN, every single class can adequately handle AoE.


If you want to clear room by room, in a tactical, controlled, manner -- go do it with people that want to do it like you.
Don't try and force or put down people who put efficiency over... whatever it is you're trying to argue.

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you can do the same, if you want to pull up to each boss go with people you like, and of like minded intent.

also not ever melee has good aoe skills, monk being 1 of them. some melee do good some don't. SE has been slowly down grading aoe's to stop us from large pulling.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

also not ever melee has good aoe skills, monk being 1 of them. some melee do good some don't. SE has been slowly down grading aoe's to stop us from large pulling.

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Monk has good aoe tho, TP lasts longer now then it did in HW.

The only thing SE's really done to curb larger pulls is put up more gates. Its still easy to melt mobs in a dungeon with most DF combos.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

you can do the same, if you want to pull up to each boss go with people you like, and of like minded intent.

also not ever melee has good aoe skills, monk being 1 of them. some melee do good some don't. SE has been slowly down grading aoe's to stop us from large pulling.

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I main a monk, and I know for a fact that they can AoE adequately and, with some smart positioning, AoE well. There is still no excuse to not AoE when the situation calls for it.

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Originally Posted by Rokke

Monk has good aoe tho, TP lasts longer now then it did in HW.

The only thing SE's really done to curb larger pulls is put up more gates. Its still easy to melt mobs in a dungeon with most DF combos.

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not really if you look at raw damage from aoe vs single target not the tp. And look up spells/skills slowly getting the "more mobs hit, you deal less damage" effects. I have no issue with large pulls, i enjoy them as a smn. (dat bahamut damage yo) but you can't just sit back and ignore the changes SE have been doing, outside more and more gates.

pld has no issue with large pulls but some tanks (drk) has had a lot of their defenses neutered since SB launch. foresight was a big reason large pulls happen since it was a defense boost. now some tanks just have 1-2 damage reduction buffs.

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Originally Posted by KaijinRhada

I main a monk, and I know for a fact that they can AoE adequately and, with some smart positioning, AoE well. There is still no excuse to not AoE when the situation calls for it.

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did i say not to aoe? i don't recall saying that lol. I said some are better then others. monks single target damage is still better then their aoe damage. May want to read instead of jumping on the post. at 1 word.

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Originally Posted by virgil204

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But this isn't real life, and this isn't the army.

Tanks that can't manage their CDs appropriately are not rotating their CDs correctly. In a lot of cases, healers don't have to spam heal, even in the event that the tank doesn't use their CDs - I would know, as I main an AST and have only had problems with undergeared tanks, and even then, I'm not spam healing. Also, lucid dreaming is there for a reason, plus healers who rip aggro because they are overhealing are at fault here - healers don't need to keep the tank at 100% hp in every pull. In most cases, healers rip aggro simply because they cast a regen or pop a heal in the middle of a pull, in which case, all they have to do is run straight to the tank so that aggro can be picked up again. Simple fix.

I did read. The implication that monks don't AoE well will start spreading the nonsense that they're not good on AoE situations, and less people will be inclined to do so, or be less daring on large pulls. It's absolute garbage to implicate that it isn't ideal for monks to AoE, when it is, and it's tiring to hear that get spread constantly.

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Originally Posted by virgil204

2c. Heal the dps who are deserpately trying to avoid the numbers does the 20 mobs are shooting out every 2 seconds

the melee dps actually does a lot less dos cos they spend more time avoiding aoes.

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DPS who are getting hit by mob AOEs are either standing in the AOEs, which is dumb on their part, or the tank didn't turn them away...but the DPS can still move out of the way. Also...I don't understand 2c. Wot. Like, I literally cannot understand what that says.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

you can do the same, if you want to pull up to each boss go with people you like, and of like minded intent.

also not ever melee has good aoe skills, monk being 1 of them. some melee do good some don't. SE has been slowly down grading aoe's to stop us from large pulling.

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And I do.
You don't see me making a thread complaining about it, do you?

Monks have more than enough AoE damage for max-level 4-mans mass pulling. Just because they aren't best, or even if they are the worst, they still do more than enough.

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Originally Posted by KaijinRhada

I did read. The implication that monks don't AoE well will start spreading the nonsense that they're not good on AoE situations, and less people will be inclined to do so, or be less daring on large pulls. It's absolute garbage to implicate that it isn't ideal for monks to AoE, when it is, and it's tiring to hear that get spread constantly.

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its been like that since ARR launch, never stopped anyone from large pulling. you need to really look into the difference between "not good" and "absolute shit" their single target damage is better then aoe, their aoe damage is not as good as a sam. that is all i said, not one time did i say mnk aoe suck and shouldn't aoe, so no you didn't read lol.

or you would know what i said, which is some jobs aoe better then others.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

not really if you look at raw damage from aoe vs single target not the tp. And look up spells/skills slowly getting the "more mobs hit, you deal less damage" effects. I have no issue with large pulls, i enjoy them as a smn. (dat bahamut damage yo) but you can't just sit back and ignore the changes SE have been doing, outside more and more gates.

pld has no issue with large pulls but some tanks (drk) has had a lot of their defenses neutered since SB launch. foresight was a big reason large pulls happen since it was a defense boost. now some tanks just have 1-2 damage reduction buffs.

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A DRK may be less of a sponge than a PLD, but as a WHM I can manage to keep both standing while dpsing. My "main" dps is BRD. BRD AoE isn't as good as it was in HW, but its still more than capable dealing with a big pull.

Its true that theres always going to be a class that outshines another within their category but everyone has serviceable AoE going on in SB.

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Originally Posted by Eylirria

And I do.
You don't see me making a thread complaining about it, do you?

Monks have more than enough AoE damage for max-level 4-mans mass pulling. Just because they aren't best, or even if they are the worst, they still do more than enough.

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which is what i said. -_- wow people missed english class in school or something lol. where did i say monk suck at aoe and not viable? please point it out. I stated monk are not as good as sam, and to best with single target damage. nor did I say monks shouldn't aoe lol.

all i said is some jobs do aoe better then others, which was to a post that was saying all jobs are equal. I was correcting it saying they are not. Not once saying they shouldn't aoe. Or that their aoe sucks.

I've seen monks do good aoe in dungeons, but their mainstay is single target.

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Originally Posted by Rokke

A DRK may be less of a sponge than a PLD, but as a WHM I can manage to keep both standing while dpsing. My "main" dps is BRD. BRD AoE isn't as good as it was in HW, but its still more than capable dealing with a big pull.

Its true that theres always going to be a class that outshines another within their category but everyone has serviceable AoE going on in SB.

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my GF mains dark and i play drk on the side, we both large pull. I don't think anyone here is understanding me, and jumping on my case because they are overthinking what I'm saying.

idk how people get "monk aoe suck, drks large pulling sucks" out of my posts when im not saying that at all lol.

i swear people in ff14 lack communication skills, I get mine are not that great. But no need to jump on my case putting words in my mouth claiming im saying something im not.

my g/f met an epic healer in lost city hm. she had 0 issues large pulling, whm didn't drop below 70% mp, her hp was 70% and he was doing good damage, and not stepping on her toes with holy spam. They even took out the final boss as a duo after she accidentally locked out the 2 dps. the whm maintained 50% mp during the fight.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

not really if you look at raw damage from aoe vs single target not the tp. And look up spells/skills slowly getting the "more mobs hit, you deal less damage"
pld has no issue with large pulls but some tanks (drk) has had a lot of their defenses neutered since SB launch. foresight was a big reason large pulls happen since it was a defense boost. now some tanks just have 1-2 damage reduction buffs.

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The problem with what you posted is Monks AoE is that they are not affected by how many targets you hit, and even if they were AoE is more damage per potency vs single target. If you pull 20 mobs and only single target 1 you're missing a lot damage as a monk and their AoE used to be the melee king in HW it's still good now especially with the low TP costs and using Purifcation on AoE pulls so use it.

To regards to the tanks, yeah Drks lost a lot of their abilities but in terms of dungeons the tanks can equally pull everything and take the same abuse just Pld and War can smooth it out nicer than Drk in relation to CDs. They can all mass pull every single dungeon that's tuned for 70 easily it just takes people to actually press their AoE buttons and nuke everything down which heaven forbid people don't use as well as tanks cycling CDs as it's always been.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

my GF mains dark and i play drk on the side, we both large pull. I don't think anyone here is understanding me, and jumping on my case because they are overthinking what I'm saying.

idk how people get "monk aoe suck, drks large pulling sucks" out of my posts when im not saying that at all lol.

i swear people in ff14 lack communication skills, I get mine are not that great. But no need to jump on my case putting words in my mouth claiming im saying something im not.

my g/f met an epic healer in lost city hm. she had 0 issues large pulling, whm didn't drop below 70% mp, her hp was 70% and he was doing good damage, and not stepping on her toes with holy spam. They even took out the final boss as a duo after she accidentally locked out the 2 dps. the whm maintained 50% mp during the fight.

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Im not sure what words Im putting in your mouth. This chain started when you said monk AoE wasn't good and that SB limited AoE. I disagreed about MNK, but agreed with the limiting but find the increase in dungeon gates to be a bigger detriment to big pulls than the new 4.0 AoE. Our DRK/WHM experiences even match up so Im not sure whose jumping on who lol

I think most people are just saying MNK isn't as bad as you originally made it sound.
For what its worth, english isn’t my first language tho so ymmv :P

I only pull big when the healer wants me to.

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

Just an FYI, but "Join date" means when you signed up for the forums and has nothing to do with when you started the game. For example, I've had a FFXIV account since 1.0's CB, but it says August 2013 on the forums because I didn't bother to sign up for them until ARR's launch.

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I am more than aware of that, but I am skeptical of anyone who attempts to use how long they've played a game as reason for why they're right and someone else is not. Particularly when their forum join date can be measured to at best one month ago, and they have other posts saying they are a returning player who mains three jobs that aren't any of the ones they're talking about in the multiple troll threads they've started. My guess is this person probably has played for a while at least, but got forum banned at least once in the past and this is their new troll account. My solution, as always, is to put them on ignore. Works wonders.

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

The problem is the plethora of circular AoEs and PBAoEs that are too big to be outside of and still be within melee range of the target. Not usually a big deal in and of itself, but if you're fighting a large pack of mobs that spam those abilities and you're a melee DPS, prepare to have a bad time.

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The only ones that will have this issue are those with a large circular radius that are centered on the mob itself like the large toad aoe's. If a circular aoe is centered on you, just find the direction that doesn't put you out of range of the mob. This usually means moving to the side of the mob or even towards the tank. Even if 2 or 3 of them drop at the same time, there's always a direction to move that is more efficient than directly away from the mobs. You can also hit your weaponskills as you run, so you can even run most of the way out, pop the weaponskill at the last second, finish running out, and have more than enough time to run back in range before the next gcd. Even the toad AoE can allow this sometimes if it happens to time well with your gcd. Run 'n gun essentially.

Pulling big is nice and all, if some tanks do actually stop and stop there, instead of stopping, me putting down doton, then running off to get more and letting my doton tick away in its own lonely corner...

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Originally Posted by Rokke

Im not sure what words Im putting in your mouth. This chain started when you said monk AoE wasn't good and that SB limited AoE. I disagreed about MNK, but agreed with the limiting but find the increase in dungeon gates to be a bigger detriment to big pulls than the new 4.0 AoE. Our DRK/WHM experiences even match up so Im not sure whose jumping on who lol

I think most people are just saying MNK isn't as bad as you originally made it sound.
For what its worth, english isn’t my first language tho so ymmv :P

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that wasn't what I was trying to say actually.

i did say "not good" but i meant in terms of other jobs who are better at it. Not once did I say they suck. Also not once did i say large pulling was bad. Just the facts that SE is trying to slow it down. Which they are. No need to jump on my case for stating a fact.

idk what your main langue is but "not good" or "not as good" doesn't mean "garbage" or "terrible" :) i hope that clarifies.

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Originally Posted by Awful

The problem with what you posted is Monks AoE is that they are not affected by how many targets you hit, and even if they were AoE is more damage per potency vs single target. If you pull 20 mobs and only single target 1 you're missing a lot damage as a monk and their AoE used to be the melee king in HW it's still good now especially with the low TP costs and using Purifcation on AoE pulls so use it.

To regards to the tanks, yeah Drks lost a lot of their abilities but in terms of dungeons the tanks can equally pull everything and take the same abuse just Pld and War can smooth it out nicer than Drk in relation to CDs. They can all mass pull every single dungeon that's tuned for 70 easily it just takes people to actually press their AoE buttons and nuke everything down which heaven forbid people don't use as well as tanks cycling CDs as it's always been.

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not what i was talking about with monk. their aoe do not hit as hard as their single target skills. not once did i say monk aoe damaged sucked. I just said not good which i meant as a comparison to sam nin and drg. monk do better at single target then aoe. Monk can deal a good amount of damage in aoe but deal more with their single targets.

I also wasn't saying monks skills had an aoe fall off, but that other jobs skills do or was changed to in sb. which is SE trying to slow down mass dungeon pulling.

so in that regard you are mixing up 2 of my thoughts some how. *shrug*

as for drk tanking, that mostly player to player based, not all players who play tank are good at mass pulling. Drks are great at mass pulling, just again with SE trying to curb mass pulling, their defenses got the shaft.

My g/f had to deal with an immature healer in Arf recently she started to pull, and all the healer did was spam cure. no damage just heal. She (my g/f) wasn't taking much damage and the cast sound started to hurt her ears. So she ask the healer to stop spam curing. At first she asked the healer if they was bored got no reply.
then told them politely to cut it out that the cures were not needed. (my gf hp barely went under 99% before healer cured her) my g/f stopped a sec to adjust her headphones as the healer decides to pull.

gf didn't notice this and accidentally let them die, but really the healer shouldn't have been pulling. my g/f asked why they pulled no reply, then healer declares to not be healing anymore calling my b/f an ass. she tried asking the healer why she said this trying to explain what happen. healer wanted to pick a fight. My g/f just kept trying to plat best she could using AD to get her hp back lol. suck they finished the dungeon faster then they could boot the healer.

but ya skill wise a drk does best in large pulls, if the healer doesn't holy spam during dark price a tank can use DA+AD to keep their hp up with no mp issues. just sucks their defense skills got neutered.


but again, try to read in full, or ask questions. I try my best to communicate but i get sometimes i fk up. I dislike people jumping on my case for being honest or giving my 2 cents from my experience with a monk/drk and personal experience as a mnk/drk. And people jumping on my case over a word use that their head cannon twists.

not once did i say monk aoe suck, or drk suck at large pulling.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

you can do the same, if you want to pull up to each boss go with people you like, and of like minded intent.

also not ever melee has good aoe skills, monk being 1 of them. some melee do good some don't. SE has been slowly down grading aoe's to stop us from large pulling.

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"Not every melee has good aoe skills, monk being one of them" there is no misunderstanding this, you are exactly saying monk has no good aoe skills. What you meant means nothing when your words, taken exactly as they are, mean something different. No good skills =/= skills not as good. And yeah, saying not good is basically saying its bad.

So yes, people were correcting you on exactly what you said, which MNK has good AoE, because it has decent initial burst with no fall-off per mob count. And SE is trying to curb the accelerated growth AoE potential had in the past; scale it down for those who were imbalanced monsters in regards to it. It can be claimed they are trying to neuter it, but then we see something like WAR getting beefed up lifesteal on Steal Cyclone which is something that supports higher counts.

In terms of ability efficiency, collecting as many mobs as you can for your burst window using your buffs has much more value as many dps lost secondary cooldown buffs.

Nope.

If I see people in reasonably good gear and not a total garbage for AOE comp I'm mass pulling. If we die, adjust afterwards.

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Originally Posted by XykeVayaris

Pulling big is nice and all, if some tanks do actually stop and stop there, instead of stopping, me putting down doton, then running off to get more and letting my doton tick away in its own lonely corner...

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pay attention to the tank, sometimes they got to stop to use an aoe enmity skill as the healer puts regen or cures them mid pull making mobs not hit run to the healer. Also give tank a sec to adjust before doing a skill. It helps a ton.

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

"Not every melee has good aoe skills, monk being one of them" there is no misunderstanding this, you are exactly saying monk has no good aoe skills. What you meant means nothing when your words, taken exactly as they are, mean something different. No good skills =/= skills not as good. And yeah, saying not good is basically saying its bad

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there is a misunderstanding with this. Not good =/= suck :)

not my fault you took 1 thing i said out of context, and put your own head cannon. I do apologies if i didn't express my thought well enough, but "not good"=/= "garbage" or "terrible" if i though monk aoe suck, i would have said "monk aoe suck"

not good doesn't automatically mean bad btw. Just not good, or not as good. bad means bad. i never stated the word bad.

I also tried to fix what i meant more clearly, if you look at the rest of my posts since i noticed the miscommunication.

i meant monk aoe is not as good as a sam in terms of raw power. monk deal better damage to single targets, which make sense as they are hand to hand.

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Originally Posted by InfiniDragon

Nope.

If I see people in reasonably good gear and not a total garbage for AOE comp I'm mass pulling. If we die, adjust afterwards.

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you should communicate to the other members, being in good gear or good aoe comp means nothing. Player to player skills is a factor.

Well OP, congratulations, this thread got a lot bigger than it should've been.

Pve ppl making threads about dungeons

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

pay attention to the tank, sometimes they got to stop to use an aoe enmity skill as the healer puts regen or cures them mid pull making mobs not hit run to the healer. Also give tank a sec to adjust before doing a skill. It helps a ton.

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I understand that, I do that myself when tanking, but never have I stopped, attack for a bit then decide that I should bring more mobs into the fray partway through the battle. I would wait till the tank settles down and starts their normal attacking combo before dropping stuff.

Eh, just one of those "sad to be a melee dps" moments

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Originally Posted by Hayward

Your adrenaline deficit is of no concern to anyone else in your party, contrary to what you may believe or was told by hangers-on. Healers who think this way are the ones I trust the least as a tank.

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Nor is your conservative stance a concern of mine. Sorry I prefer actually healing than mindlessly spamming Stone IV whenever I have tanks pull just three mobs. And before you say otherwise, I have actually tested just how little you need to heal on small pulls. Kugane Castle may be the worst offender, where the DPS can tank small packs themselves. At least with large pulls, I have to think when it's safe to get off Holy for the stun so I can follow up an Aero III cast and still manage the tank's health. It's far more entertaining to play that way.

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Originally Posted by Miste

So...why can't people just ask the tank to pull more? It's just a question to see if the group is okay with it?

I don't get it.

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Right? I don't see why it would be a big deal. I guess some just hate the idea of large pulls.

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Originally Posted by Naberrie

So, realistically, look at what you have in the party. If your DPS are, say, MNK and DRG: pull small. If you have RDM, SAM, SMN, BLM, BRD: knock yourself out. But if you have 2 DRGs and you're wondering why it's taking so long to kill those 20 mobs you just pulled, that's on you, buddy.

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AoE-Skills doesn't have positionals ;)
Every Job can do good AoE-Dmg, if you know how to play them.

So if the tank pulls 20 mobs and you're doing single-dmg, that's on you buddy^^

The rule of life is to adapt, or die trying.

Better players learn how to adapt to every situation instead of forcing everyone else to adapt to them.

The vast majority of my Expert Roulette runs typically end in 15-17 minutes, and I solo queue as a Bard. And it's not because I waste my time nitpicking on how everyone else plays.

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Originally Posted by Campi

AoE-Skills doesn't have positionals ;)
Every Job can do good AoE-Dmg, if you know how to play them.

So if the tank pulls 20 mobs and you're doing single-dmg, that's on you buddy^^

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Monk has either two positional single attacks (attack-attack-Rockbreaker) for moderate aoe, or one positional single attack (arm of the destroyer-attack-rockbreaker) for heavy amount of mobs aoe. Monk is the only job that can't combo their aoe directly into another aoe without using a long cooldown OGCD (perfect balance). The normal attacks are honestly hell to try and land on a ton of mobs, since they often keep shifting and going out of range. No other job has this problem.

OP could always avoid this problem by TANKING themselves. Dont like the way people are leading your dungeon runs. Start leading them yourself.

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Originally Posted by Derio

OP could always avoid this problem by TANKING themselves. Dont like the way people are leading your dungeon runs. Start leading them yourself.

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OP doesn't even have to tank at all (some people avoid it like a plague), but simply: Communicate.

I know communication is considered taboo, but it's amazing how well runs go when people ask questions. Yeah, there is always that chance you'll get ignored (90% of parties I ask whether they want big pulls or not), but at least you tried. If the party isn't working for you, the tank is pulling like he/she's life depended on it and you can't handle it, then you can leave the duty. 30 minute penalty isn't as bad as a 2 hour headache.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

The normal attacks are honestly hell to try and land on a ton of mobs, since they often keep shifting and going out of range. No other job has this problem.

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Bigger picture:
Even if you miss your 1 positional every time on a large pull, you'll still be doing way more DPS than if you were in a group small enough to single target with perfect positionals

Dear tanks, pull big.

Sincerely your healer and occasionally RDM/BLM