Kugane tower jump

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Originally Posted by Tsunenori

As I said, none of my post is to exclude that they can't do it better in the future.

I'm just also coming at it from the other side and saying that, regardless of what you see, you are still going to be learning the rules of the jumps and where to aim each one, so fundamentally at a base level it doesn't change anything.

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I understood your points. 1) The jumps can be completed. 2) You like it for the challenge. 3) They should consider going back and cleaning it up, but it's still fine to you either way.

No problem. What I was saying is basically my bird's eye view, which is: For the devs to expect players to jump primarily on invisible collisions to progress is beyond stupid and insults their players. I never thought it was possible for any game dev to think this was acceptable just because it could be completed. Until now.

This thing took me about an hour to do first time, I've just done it now in less than two minutes. The pain felt unreal.

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Originally Posted by Jas710

For the devs to expect players to jump primarily on invisible collisions to progress is beyond stupid and insults their players. I never thought it was possible for any game dev to think this was acceptable just because it could be completed. Until now.

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I'm not sure if this is meant to come across as impassioned as I'm hearing it in my head, especially considering I was agreeing with you, but I'll give the benefit of the doubt here. I wouldn't say any of the jumps in the Kugane Tower qualify as insulting or beyond stupid though.

I wouldn't say you're primarily jumping on invisible collisions either. Counting from memory I can think of 2, maybe 3, jumps out of the 30+ jumps in the Kugane Tower puzzle that actually require that (the first of which is practice for the final jump, which is the other one that requires it). The bigger issue that players run into is bumping into the tower laterally at awkward points, all of which are easily avoidable once you find them but shouldn't be there to begin with, nor should finding them be happenstance.

However, if there are any sightseeing related jumping puzzles that I think epitomize poor design and invisible collisions it's honestly a few of the 2.0 ones like the Ixal Logging Grounds or The Bannock. I never felt like I had control over my character or the jumps themselves, and instead felt like I just lucked into making it.

Anyway, I didn't expect my post to have share the majority opinion, and in case you felt like my "as I said" was being dismissive I didn't mean for it to come off that way. We agree that it can be improved, and I hope they keep implementing more of these kinds of things and get that chance to improve them personally.

Thankfully I've cleared that jump, but it may have driven me insane constantly seeing that glowing orb in town if either a) I couldn't make the jump or b) had no interest in doing JPs.

Maybe there should be an option to just turn off the visuals? Aside from the ARR vistas, you don't get anything out of these new sets (as of now), so they are just for 'fun'. What you don't see won't annoy you :X

The games jumping physics are awful and so is the geometry and hit boxes - they really should go do some jumping puzzles in GW2 and see how they should be - those are fun.

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Originally Posted by Aerilon

The games jumping physics are awful and so is the geometry and hit boxes - they really should go do some jumping puzzles in GW2 and see how they should be - those are fun.

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To be entirely fair GW2 was built with jumping puzzles in mind and their controls reflect it. Though the same thing could be said of SWTOR and that game somehow manages to handle worse than FF14 in spite of the Datacron puzzles being hard built into the release patch. That all said though, I'd kill for them to emulate GW2's Jumping physics. Those never felt floaty or off.

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Originally Posted by Enla

To be entirely fair GW2 was built with jumping puzzles in mind and their controls reflect it.

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They probably didn't go:"Well, we want jumping puzzles in the game, how can we make the controls to support it?", though. Controls were most likely based on combat demands first and foremost, with jumping puzzles added later - And those demands include fluent, fast-paced PvP and non-trinity design, which by nature makes people move around more. Meanwhile in FFXIV 1.0, the legacy code, you would STAND STILL to even use abilities. We didn't even have jumping for a long while, due to the devs penchant to keep everything on rails and even gap closers can feel clunky.

The clash is fairly deeply rooted down to fundamental design philosophies. I don't think they could pull fluent jumping puzzles off if they wanted to.

Idk if anyone has mentioned it in this thread, too tired to read through all the posts, but:

Limit your FPS to 30. All jump puzzles have now become trivial. Have fun.

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Originally Posted by MyaValentine

that has more to do with collisions and you will find that in pretty much 99% of the games, we can't possibly make a perfect collision for the body of a character it's usually just a basic box around the character making it more "complex" is just unnesesary stress on the system just to cater to people who can't do a jump minipuzzle. All and all is doable and plenty of people have done and all you are going to get is "git gud" that's all there's to it. if you can't don't do it. if you are a completinzionist then suck it up and "git gud".

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Tell git gud to the vista in the leathers workers guild. You can be good until the cows come home but without LUCK or a bard you wont get that vista.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

Tell git gud to the vista in the leathers workers guild. You can be good until the cows come home but without LUCK or a bard you wont get that vista.

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Didn't they just nerf that vista? I believe i saw discussion of that in my FC.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

Didn't they just nerf that vista? I believe i saw discussion of that in my FC.

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Tried to get it last night if they nerfed it, it was not much a nerf. Cause its still hard to get without luck or the help of a bard.

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Originally Posted by Niraves

Limit your FPS to 30. All jump puzzles have now become trivial. Have fun.

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I did that. It helped. Somewhat. I can't imagine what it would've been like if I was still playing on my craptop that runs the game at 10 FPS. Which, by the way, is another argument I'll make in favour of nerfing these ridiculous requirements: some people don't have the hardware to handle this.

I got to the top about a total of 3 times. Once in 4.0 for the top's sightseeing log, twice in 4.1 for the lamppost. None of this felt like an accomplishment at all.

I feel like putting in these stupid requirements wholly defeats the entire purpose of sightseeing, which is to enjoy the sights. Unfortunately, by the time I actually got to the top of the hostelry, I was so angry and burnt out, that I had absolutely no energy left to appreciate the sight.

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Originally Posted by Niraves

Idk if anyone has mentioned it in this thread, too tired to read through all the posts, but:

Limit your FPS to 30. All jump puzzles have now become trivial. Have fun.

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Such options do not exist on PS4...

I understand a good way to get to the top is marry someone in game who can do it easily and just teleport to them when they're on top. ;)

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Originally Posted by Blindheart

Such options do not exist on PS4...

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PC master race? :D

Also, that sucks. I honestly have no tips for PS4. I hate trying to play this game on a controller.

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Originally Posted by Niraves

I honestly have no tips for PS4.

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Only tip, is practice, practice, practice. I play on PS4 with a controller, and it definitely took a lot of practice to be able to know where, and when, to jump just to go up the tower. To get the new vista on the signpost, that took me 5 attempts jumping off.

I couldn't do the puzzle. I'd get most of the way and fall.. so I did what any reasonable person does... I married someone who could jump it and ported myself up! lol (okok, it wasn't the REASON I married him, just a nice side bonus :P)

https://i.imgur.com/6Q4Pd2r.png

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Originally Posted by Wyntir

I couldn't do the puzzle. I'd get most of the way and fall.. so I did what any reasonable person does... I married someone who could jump it and ported myself up! lol (okok, it wasn't the REASON I married him, just a nice side bonus :P)

https://i.imgur.com/6Q4Pd2r.png

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Hee hee about the only way I'll ever do it. I need to advertise in PF I suppose :P

GW2 suffered from the same problem with many of the jumping puzzles. It was often difficult to understand where to jump from one point to the next because platforms were not easily distinguishable from set decorations. Even if you did know you had to fight with poorly carved out jumping space and dodgy collision on platforms. In the end most of the puzzles felt like exploiting terrain bugs rather than a level in a platforming game.

Pretty much every sightseeing point in the game that requires some sort of jumping component to acquire I don't have. A few, but most of them I just can't reach. I've given up. The jump mechanic in this game is just atrocious. It's not worth the headache, the frustration. I don't like playing angry, and trying to do these jump points makes me angry. I don't even feel a sense of accomplishment when I reach one. If anything my aggravation gets worse, because I feel like I wasted my time trying to get something so frivolous that never should have been that much work.

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Originally Posted by Spiroglyph

I play lalafell, so whenever I'm at it more often than not I have to stop and wait till everyone jumps or falls the hell off and I can see myself again...

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So I did the tower a while back as a Miqo'te. Got pretty good at it (succeed 4 times out of 10). I fantasia into a Lalafell recently and did the tower again for the Vista, it feels completely different. I had to learn all the jumps again.

And the camera really hates you being tiny.

Anyways, turning off my UI helped me a lot in both instances.

The key to the Kugane Tower for people using KB+M is that there are 3 different types of running jumps. Once you learn the timing for how to do a short, medium, or long hop, then its simply a matter of figuring out which jump needs what kind of hop. As far as the leap of faith, the timing for that jump is a LOT earlier than you might think. My first time trying it I panicked while sprinting and brushed the space key way before I planned to, and I was cursing myself all the way down until I landed on the vista O_O.

That being said, I wonder if Yoshida himself even landed this jump before allowing it to be included in the game. It just seems like a big middle finger to people who want the sightseeing log done. Even the hardest ARR jumps could be trivialized by capping FPS, but the Kugane jump is just pure sadism.

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Originally Posted by pushin_tin

That being said, I wonder if Yoshida himself even landed this jump before allowing it to be included in the game. It just seems like a big middle finger to people who want the sightseeing log done.

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From what I always see when they show him demoing, Yoshida plays this game like it's the first time he's testing it. Makes sense, though. Being both producer and director is a ridiculously busy ordeal. I bet he's lucky if he even remembers his character's name, and is probably spoonfed information and gameplay from his leads. I find it hard to believe that he would be able to spend any real quality time playing through the game, much less this Kugane jumping thing.

Next live letter, someone should ask him what was the last boss fight he cleared (without being carried), so we can all watch him do this face: :confused:

I got to the top after about an hour. This lamp post shit is where I draw the line though. I might try to climb a few times a day until I get it but I'm not devoting significant time to something they clearly didn't put much thought into.

Fix the God damn hitboxes on the struts or don't put such convoluted puzzles into the game. I'd have hoped they'd learned after the North Shroud JP but apparently the message they took from that was "players love arbitrary invisible walls and platforming in a game that wasn't designed for it, please add more of this".

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Originally Posted by Kohdo

I got to the top after about an hour. This lamp post shit is where I draw the line though. I might try to climb a few times a day until I get it but I'm not devoting significant time to something they clearly didn't put much thought into.

Fix the God damn hitboxes on the struts or don't put such convoluted puzzles into the game. I'd have hoped they'd learned after the North Shroud JP but apparently the message they took from that was "players love arbitrary invisible walls and platforming in a game that wasn't designed for it, please add more of this".

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actually they implemented more bc people asked for more. Conclusion: they enjoyed the North shroud puzzle and co

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Originally Posted by ServerCollaps

actually they implemented more bc people asked for more. Conclusion: they enjoyed the North shroud puzzle and co

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Faulty logic there. Just because someone likes JPs does not mean they enjoyed North Shroud jump and others in game. I love JPs, but there has been some poor implementation in this game with the need to jump to and from thin-air multiple times and getting knocked off by hit-boxes that should not be there.

I'm happy SE is trying, but they need to work on cleaning it up.

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Originally Posted by ServerCollaps

actually they implemented more bc people asked for more. Conclusion: they enjoyed the North shroud puzzle and co

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People might have enjoyed the though behind it but that does not mean that people wanted them to introduce a second part to the Kugane puzzle. They probably wanted a complete new one. Also liking something does not mean that you cant criticize it at the same time. I like the idea behind the jump puzzles but I definitely see a lot of things that could be done better. Its not a good puzzle if you need to jump to places that are not even existing..

(Also against my own judgment the vista on the lamp annoyed me so much that I tried to get it...after missing it 8 times I finally managed to land on this. Again I only felt relief of having it done. Nothing about getting there was fun. I even rage quit the game on that one evening because the hitboxes really pissed me off.)

Dear SE dont ever do something like that again...please dont make puzzles where you need another one on top of that especially if people have already done it months before that..thats just bad.

Threads like these make me understand why they made Destiny 2 the way it currently is. xD Can't have people saying the game is "too hard" after people pay that amount of money for it.

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Originally Posted by BluexBird

Threads like these make me understand why they made Destiny 2 the way it currently is. xD Can't have people saying the game is "too hard" after people pay that amount of money for it.

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The problem with the jumping puzzles is that they aren't difficult per se. They are difficult because the bad way this game handles these hitboxes. I've finished all the sightseeing log and it was a very nightmarish experience that I don't want to repeat in the future. I'd advice people to watch a video before jumping from the Kugane Tower to get that vista on top of the street light. Yes, I know, it's a bit "spoilerish" to do so, but the game is unfair as it is, and it's annoying already that we have to climb the tower in order to do so. Thankfully some users here (along with some YouTube buddies) uploaded theirs to give people some guidance.

I actually feel like making a guide to halp people clear the harder jumps of the tower, but I'm at work right meow. Maybe later this week. Surely it's been done before, no?!

yea I feel like a lot of the complaints here aren't that valid. The game isn't designed to be a platformer, so the general jankiness can be forgiven. I don't want devs spending time improving hitbox collisions around the world if it doesn't have any benefit elsewhere in the game.

But, I'd say they've been successful with the jumping puzzles they've added. The biggest factor to this is the consistency. You definitely do a lot of jumping from invisible shelf to shelf, but once you learn all the jumps and what you should be aiming at, it's entirely consistent from run to run. If you don't want to learn it yourself from trial and error, a good guide should absolutely help out with each of the jumping puzzles because of this. It might not be intuitive the first time, but once you've got the muscle memory down it's pretty easy to make it up the Kugane tower each night to log off.

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Originally Posted by BluexBird

I actually feel like making a guide to halp people clear the harder jumps of the tower, but I'm at work right meow. Maybe later this week. Surely it's been done before, no?!

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There are guides out there and even after getting to the top of the tower quite a lot of time (curse you lamp) you can still fall off quite a bit thanks to the hit boxes. I mean this is not hard content..this is far away from savage or anything like that. Its just a puzzle that you can only do if you jump to places that dont exit. Heck even with a guide that one wood plank will still be a nightmare since its kinda quite a bit of luck if you land right or not.

This has nothing to do with people wanting a nerf or anything. We just want puzzles that work correctly, where we can see the place that we have to land on and not just hope that the invisible place is right. This is not well thought out and not great thus people should be allowed to voice criticism. Its sad that any post like that always gets at least one person that says how we cant have nice things thanks to the complains..even though its a complain about a badly implemented thing.

I hope nobody complains if we get a badly designed battle where you can only win thanks to a glitch or something we cant even see. Because as long as its somehow still possible its great and fine, right? ;)

It could be better sure. No one is going to argue that. However, you can figure out where the invisible hit boxes are after a few tries. Once you do it's easy. There's several pegs once you're about halfway up that are like that. You don't jump to the peg but instead to the air space next to it. Just adjust. Only takes like couple minutes at most once you get the hang of it. Same for the jump down to the lamp post.

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Originally Posted by dotsforlife

It could be better sure. No one is going to argue that. However, you can figure out where the invisible hit boxes are after a few tries. Once you do it's easy. There's several pegs once you're about halfway up that are like that. You don't jump to the peg but instead to the air space next to it. Just adjust. Only takes like couple minutes at most once you get the hang of it. Same for the jump down to the lamp post.

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And yet I have fallen of that one plank more than I can count. I jumped on it, landed on it, missed the lamp and went at it again. I positioned myself like I did before that and yet I fell because somehow it must have been a bit different and thus I hit something invisible. Sometimes I jump on that plank where I thought that I would surely fall but I dont.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

There are guides out there and even after getting to the top of the tower quite a lot of time (curse you lamp) you can still fall off quite a bit thanks to the hit boxes. I mean this is not hard content..this is far away from savage or anything like that. Its just a puzzle that you can only do if you jump to places that dont exit. Heck even with a guide that one wood plank will still be a nightmare since its kinda quite a bit of luck if you land right or not.

This has nothing to do with people wanting a nerf or anything. We just want puzzles that work correctly, where we can see the place that we have to land on and not just hope that the invisible place is right. This is not well thought out and not great thus people should be allowed to voice criticism. Its sad that any post like that always gets at least one person that says how we cant have nice things thanks to the complains..even though its a complain about a badly implemented thing.

I hope nobody complains if we get a badly designed battle where you can only win thanks to a glitch or something we cant even see. Because as long as its somehow still possible its great and fine, right? ;)

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lol, well the combat mechanics are a more fundamental part of the game than jumping puzzles, so I would hope they polish up the fights a bit better than they did the Kugane Tower hitboxes.

But, thinking about it a bit didnt this just happen? The first boss in Skalla had its two movenames swapped so they were reversed. Since it was consistent I don't think anyone had a huge problem with it once they figured it out. I was actually surprised to see it get fixed so quickly!

I don't mind hitboxes. Like it's consistent in how you can stand just a little bit over any edge and still be on it. I think a lot of games are like that with graphics not being in total alignment but close enough.

Invisible walls is something I would love to see gone if technically possible. I know boundaries have to exist at the very ends of the map, but everything in the middle of maps that looks like you could jump across, I'd love to do it without hidden barriers. Zelda BotW spoiled me. No invisible walls anywhere.

If you don't like the jumping puzzles you don't have to make threads to complain. Simply go do something else. I enjoy the jumping puzzles and I still can't do all of them. They give me something fun to do when I'm bored. If i really really can't do it and want a vista I get my son to do it.

Marry someone who can get to the top and port to them. Have a rl friend help you out. Stop looking at it as something hateful and keep trying, eventually you will get it. Or, ignore it completely and move on.

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Originally Posted by Zarabeth

If you don't like the jumping puzzles you don't have to make threads to complain. Simply go do something else. I enjoy the jumping puzzles and I still can't do all of them. They give me something fun to do when I'm bored. If i really really can't do it and want a vista I get my son to do it.

Marry someone who can get to the top and port to them. Have a rl friend help you out. Stop looking at it as something hateful and keep trying, eventually you will get it. Or, ignore it completely and move on.

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People are allowed to complain a bit, you know. Most players have just been expressing frustration, not demanding its removal and auto-completion of the log entries. And all the "I did it so I don't know why you're complaining just try harder" comments are pointless too. People tried for hours, days, and couldn't do it- there's no shame in that. The tower is entirely optional and all but letting SE know why you had a poor experience in a constructive manner can help them make the next iteration of the challenge better for everyone. I don't think they can do much about the wonky hitboxes, but they might be able to ease the pain of clipping an invisible edge or aiming to land on thin air with a bit of clever positioning and guiding the player to the optimal location to land via the design itself.

I've started climbing the tower and jumping to the post for fun while waiting for dps queues.

I wish there was a "spell" or something that let you control another player character (with their permission, movement only so no access to gear or inventory, etc), I'd gladly run anyone up the tower for the fun of it and to help them out.

It's tricky, but overall it's just not quite within the genre that the rest of the game fits into, instead it's basically 3D platforming. They just implemented something within an engine that wasnt designed for it, but it's functional. It may not be possible for them to create a solid object without a hitbox that's slightly larger without breaking something in the code.

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Originally Posted by Zarabeth

If you don't like the jumping puzzles you don't have to make threads to complain. Simply go do something else. I enjoy the jumping puzzles and I still can't do all of them. They give me something fun to do when I'm bored. If i really really can't do it and want a vista I get my son to do it.

Marry someone who can get to the top and port to them. Have a rl friend help you out. Stop looking at it as something hateful and keep trying, eventually you will get it. Or, ignore it completely and move on.

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Well if you say it like that: If you dont like complain threads just ignore them and read something else, you are not forced to read them. ;) Can go both ways.

Also people as customers do have the right to point out if they think that something is bad. Most of the complains come from a bad implementation of these puzzles. Critizing these things may give us better thought out puzzles in the future while saying nothing just shows that we are alright with half-good implemented stuff thus we might just get more of those in the future.

And having to marry someone ingame should not be a solution to this problem. Honestly the puzzles can be as hard as they want to be..but at least make them so that you can use them the right way and not just jump into the thin air.