PVP Rank and PVP Experience Change

Kinda skipped over a lot of this conversation, but one thing I missed about old pvp was the unique stats like morale. Something I've thought of recently for bringing it back in a way that doesn't make it harder on newbies might be to give rank and pvp gear bonuses that effect your team instead of just yourself. It would make sense too given the cooperative nature of it, what would bring fighting spirit back to the rank and file but the sight of one of their powerful warriors in their midst?

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

But remember the Warlord title? I do and it was something that people strived for. It unlocked a specific amount of gear that you could buy while you had the title. But even if you came across a warlord you could still stomp them into the ground even if they had better gear. Of course you may not want to catch them 1v1 but PvP is group play and its all about strategy. Premades are what sucked. You could be a warlord and go up against a premade in any of the modes and get utterly crushed. FFXIV is the same way. It is about the team and not the individual so even including gear progression wouldn't necessarily change anything. Because a solid team could take down someone who outgears them..

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A few really good points here, actually. As Alliance, it was the prestigious Grand Marshal (I only got up to Lieutenant Commander). But while there was "progression" to the vanilla PvP gear it was only on the merit of the ranking you could get, and that ranking took a crazy amount of time to get (and grand marshal was awarded only once a week to the single top player). The PvP gear, really, was more of a function of how much time you played PvP for glamour purposes - it was not a way to get gear (this is probably why they changed to the Arena progression gear system later). You geared for PvP by doing PvE for the most part, aside from a few things like the anti-stun trinkets.

But to your points - the modes really made a lot more sense for that. 10vs10 capture the flag, 15vs15 king of the hill were tighter maps with straight forward objectives that wasn't too hard to get a group for to get some Honor points and wins. Still, being the recluse I am, I always solo'd same as I do in FFXIV, so it was hard going at times and premades were frustrating losses. But yes, you could overcome a gear disadvantage by outplaying your opponents and getting a solid PvP group to cooperate with which was the way to do that, and it was quite feasible because WoW never had a participation problem.

But in FFXIV you have 4v4 deathmatch with a broken comeback mechanic built into the medal system, with no chat or cooperation, and no grouping or team play. Frontlines is a messy 72 man zergfest with slightly random PvE mechanics, and it's like herding cats trying to be a team leader. There is some grouping for cooperation there, but it's not like you can get a full 24 man party easily.

Saying that out loud really highlights part of our problem I think. FFXIV needs smaller maps with straight forward mechanics, conducive for group play (ie. not feast). Then remove the participation issue and then progression-gear PvP can be a rewarding thing that works.

I need to stop thinking about it, the more I do the more I realize that WoW really had it's act together for this stuff way long ago. I was stuck thinking in the bubble that FFXIV is currently in where the system as it currently is makes sense. I failed to look at what it could be if we opened up the design space. Progression gear PvP can be rewarding and fun and implemented properly, but would break FFXIV if shoved in the non-chat non-group feast, and a few veterans would absolutely bully and destroy newbies in Frontlines - where it's not like they can just go grab 23 friends and beat you with cooperation.

And progression-gear PvP is the easiest way to put it in a solid footing to stand as end-game content because then it can get content updates as regular as PvE.

All that said, I can see a good working progression-gear system being good for this game. I don't think it's absolutely necessary and I wouldn't be saddened in the least if they intend to keep normalized stats for the time being, but if they do then they really need to amp up the PvP rewards in a clever way that incentivizes repeat queuing.

I have my Makai Master Title, and every single pice of Garo and SB gear released. I had rank 50 in adders before the requirement for it to have gear was dropped. I have the field commander's set, warsteed, and ADS mount. That wasn't done in a weekend, either. I used to PvP very frequently, and the rewards are fine. The big issue is how few viable modes there are, and how PvP is dominated by one single mode for too long. If you think there are few rewards, you play too much; they are equal to the beast tribe quests in value, if not slightly better.

They need to work on other things than progression. We need to have all frontlines modes rebalanced for level 70 and refreshed so that players don't queue up for only one at a time. They need to make frontline freelancer always on and prevent the clustering of people in GCs for the older modes. They need to really look at Feast and decide if they want a full esports experience, or if they want it to be a framework that players create leagues of their own for. Focusing on progression is just making the second coming of the whole one on one arena in the wolf's den; something you think you all want but is useless when you get it.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

If you think there are few rewards, you play too much; they are equal to the beast tribe quests in value, if not slightly better.

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Uh this doesn't make sense at all. I can play an hour and get 4 frontline matches in which nets out to 3200-4000 wolf marks. If I do roulette there is 4200-5000. 7 Days of 1 hour a day is 35000 wolf marks a week. Also I don't see how the rewards are equal or better than beast tribes. Beast tribes actually have value outside of outdated gear, materia, and other crap. So that statement is just straight up false.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

one on one arena in the wolf's den; something you think you all want but is useless when you get it.

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I know a lot of people who do the one on one arena in Wolves Den. You may deem it useless but there are people who love it.

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Originally Posted by Geryth

I failed to look at what it could be if we opened up the design space. Progression gear PvP can be rewarding and fun and implemented properly, but would break FFXIV if shoved in the non-chat non-group feast, and a few veterans would absolutely bully and destroy newbies in Frontlines - where it's not like they can just go grab 23 friends and beat you with cooperation.

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You also had this same thing happen in WoW. Premades dominated and they do in FFXIV as well. I know because I run one.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

Uh this doesn't make sense at all. I can play an hour and get 4 frontline matches in which nets out to 3200-4000 wolf marks. If I do roulette there is 4200-5000. 7 Days of 1 hour a day is 35000 wolf marks a week. Also I don't see how the rewards are equal or better than beast tribes. Beast tribes actually have value outside of outdated gear, materia, and other crap. So that statement is just straight up false.

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So you have every set of gear for ever job in the game?

There's ARR gear for 5 different archetypes. There's two sets of HW gear, and one set of SB gear. There's Garo gear. One set of garo gear alone is 20k marks for the non right side. So you're playing five hours per garo/SB set, one hour per ARR set, two for HW sets, if my memory of costs are there. Add another five hours for the minion and orchestrion scrolls. so that's about 115 hours of pvp time to get all the wolf-mark buyable rewards for every job.

Add to this 100 feast wins to get the mount and the garo achievements, the 300 wins for getting shatter mount, and you're sinking a fair amount of time in, and this is ignoring the titles you can get from pvp. You could easily spend 500 hours of play to get capped for all the achievements, ignoring ones that are hard to get. There aren't many modes that offer as much as it does.

the only issue you can make isn't really about rewards, it's that the pvp modes probably should be created more frequently because people hit those 500 hours before a new mode comes out.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

I know a lot of people who do the one on one arena in Wolves Den. You may deem it useless but there are people who love it.

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Anyone who does it realizes that jobs simply are not balanced for 1v1 in any fun sense, which was what a lot of us opposed to it tried to keep telling people. That duel arena is completely empty on my server.

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Originally Posted by Geryth

FFXIV needs smaller maps with straight forward mechanics, conducive for group play (ie. not feast).

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Not only it could use slightly smaller maps but it really needs smaller player size, 24 was and still is best size when it comes to FL, maybe 48 for secure but 72 is just too much. I still don't understand why they removed 48 instead 72 ;__;

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

So you have every set of gear for ever job in the game?

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I would have every set of gear if it was worth the retainer space. I have full Garo, mounts, etc. I have burned probably 20+ sets of pvp gear just to GC seals, I just blew 19k wolf marks today on the 205 gear just to turn into seals. Have had the minion and orc rolls for a long time. As someone who really only PvPs there isn't enough rewards. I only do PvE to level the class and see the story. Otherwise the rest of the PvE I do once and move on as PvP is way more entertaining.

I agree jobs aren't meant to be balanced 1v1 but people still enjoy it. Which is also why I laugh at Geryth's response of getting stomped by someone in better gear as PvP isn't a 1v1 contest.

FYI you also never stated how PvP rewards have more value. We get more beast tribe rewards before we get PvP rewards.

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Originally Posted by Synestra

Not only it could use slightly smaller maps but it really needs smaller player size, 24 was and still is best size when it comes to FL, maybe 48 for secure but 72 is just too much. I still don't understand why they removed 48 instead 72 ;__;

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I dunno - 8v8v8 IS more fun than 24v24v24, but I feel like the maps are still too big for 8v8v8. I would prefer that we scale down the map size of Secure and Seal Rock and get rid of the GC shtick and have 8v8 or 12v12.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Anyone who does it realizes that jobs simply are not balanced for 1v1 in any fun sense, which was what a lot of us opposed to it tried to keep telling people. That duel arena is completely empty on my server.

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I have to call it out every time it comes up: 3.x PvP was actually MORE balanced. Sure, healer vs healer was a war of attrition, but when all jobs had cc abilities, and much better, much stronger PvP skills (instead of the watered down universal skills offered now), along with their PvE kits that were better rounded out, you could feasibly take on anyone and win, IF you knew what you were doing.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

I have to call it out every time it comes up: 3.x PvP was actually MORE balanced. Sure, healer vs healer was a war of attrition, but when all jobs had cc abilities, and much better, much stronger PvP skills (instead of the watered down universal skills offered now), along with their PvE kits that were better rounded out, you could feasibly take on anyone and win, IF you knew what you were doing.

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I agree with this. Also took way more skill.