Primals - A Discussion on Ethics & Philosophy (ARR & HW Spoilers)

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Originally Posted by Cilia

(Of course, just why this kills Thordan and not Ysayle I couldn't say.)

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Maybe we were still so full of rage thanks to a certain someones death that we just plainly overdid it with Thordan while we might not have gone full WoL on Ysayle. (And yes this does not make that much sense either x))But who knows maybe he did burn to much aether by having to keep up the knights and using that one big attack to finish us off. (Or he had just an heart attack thanks to his old age and shock of what we did)

Honestly I believe that they kept Ysayle alive simply because she had a further use in the plot and since this was the end for Thordans story they just let him die. But I agree it is strange.

Thordan received a pretty raw deal. In his own way, he was a hero simply seeking to do what he thought was best to ensure that his people survived. He also had twelve knights following him, each with their own distinct personalities and differing degrees of honour, as confirmed by their biographies within the lore book. Even Zephirin who is the one to put a certain someone to death is described as an honourable figure yet is unfairly criticised by many simply he happened to kill a fan favourite who would no doubt have tried to kill or at least harm the Archbishop himself if given the opportunity.

It wasn't as if the Archbishop took pleasure in killing in the name of his goals. He simply wished to put an end to a bitter war that had waged for a thousand years with no end in sight. Much like the Warrior of Light, he sought to use divine power to achieve that goal. Something that Ysayle herself did, yet received very little criticism for. Let's not forget that she also cheered as the barrier protecting Ishgard fell and the Dravanians flocking to her side assaulted the Ishgardians within - non-combatants included. She may have expressed her regret at a later date but that was someone literally blessed by Hydaelyn.

If she hadn't died in Azyz Lla, she no doubt would have been forgiven by the protagonists. The Archbishop, meanwhile, would receive no such mercy I suspect. He would be forced to step down, perhaps confess his 'sins' and be imprisoned. As is often the case, the protagonists are quite simply hypocrites refusing to see the bigger picture and understand the motives of those they clash with, often writing them off as 'necessary sacrifices' despite giving their own allies a free pass for the same 'sins'.

At any rate, 4.0 handled the antagonists far better. It helps that they received a greater amount of time on screen this time around and the protagonists are at least attempting to understand their point of view. It remains to be seen what becomes of those particular plot points, though.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

[Archbishop Thordan] simply wished to put an end to a bitter war that had waged for a thousand years with no end in sight. Much like the Warrior of Light, he sought to use divine power to achieve that goal. Something that Ysayle herself did, yet received very little criticism for. Let's not forget that she also cheered as the barrier protecting Ishgard fell and the Dravanians flocking to her side assaulted the Ishgardians within - non-combatants included.

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Uh-uh. No. Calling shenanigans; that wasn't the Archbishop's motivation at all. One could be forgiven for thinking so, since prior to Nidhogg's defeat this was his stated purpose for his plan. However, when confronted with Nidhogg's (then-unknown to be temporary) death he just yells "But muh history!" and goes through with it anyway, and later tells us that he intends to "bless" all men in order to bring about an "endless era of peace" where "vice and conflict [have ceased] to be." (Layman's terms: he wanted to temper everyone and strip away free will to bring about peace.) The war was, for most intents and purposes, over by the time the Archbishop truly set his plans into motion - showing that he was not a well-intentioned extremist, but a power-hungry old man.

Magic philosophy: this makes Thordan a perfect example of a White villain, and also shows why in moderation Red/Black isn't necessarily evil.

Calling out Ysayle for exulting in the Dravanian assault on Ishgard was probably one of the things I most wanted to do. Though she claimed ignorance in regards to knowing the Dravanians would go after civilians... what the kupo did she expect?!

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Thordan received a pretty raw deal. In his own way, he was a hero simply seeking to do what he thought was best to ensure that his people survived. He also had twelve knights following him, each with their own distinct personalities and differing degrees of honour, as confirmed by their biographies within the lore book. Even Zephirin who is the one to put a certain someone to death is described as an honourable figure yet is unfairly criticised by many simply he happened to kill a fan favourite who would no doubt have tried to kill or at least harm the Archbishop himself if given the opportunity.

It wasn't as if the Archbishop took pleasure in killing in the name of his goals. He simply wished to put an end to a bitter war that had waged for a thousand years with no end in sight. Much like the Warrior of Light, he sought to use divine power to achieve that goal. Something that Ysayle herself did, yet received very little criticism for. Let's not forget that she also cheered as the barrier protecting Ishgard fell and the Dravanians flocking to her side assaulted the Ishgardians within - non-combatants included. She may have expressed her regret at a later date but that was someone literally blessed by Hydaelyn.

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We were already on a path to freedom when Thordan decided to go full primal so if he let us just do our thing then we would have achieved peace without him turning into a primal and all the tempering that ensures. Yes part of the knights were honorable but they were tempered by Thordan! He is the reason why they went that far and his goal was far from just ending that one war. He wanted to be the king of all and probably would have used tempering as a mean to gain that. This is far away from Ysayle even though she also killed innocent people but she never went as far as tempering. Thordan was also against telling anyone the truth so his rule would have all been built on lies and tempering. How is that good?

We found out the truth thanks to our echo, which was also known by Thordan and we saw how he reacted when his own son spoke to him about this. He tortured and imprisoned his own son and wanted to use force to end this war which would have meant countless of deaths, lots of consumed aether and people that are living a "good" life thanks to being tempered.

So he knew about the lies but kept it up like all the ones before him and when his own son wanted to change it, he took great measurements to insure that the truths will remain hidden. This is far away from Ysayle who also lived a lie (which was unknown to her) and who changed her view when she found out the truth. Thordan never wanted the truth to come out.

And in the end we would never know if Ysayle would have gotten off completely without any punishment, she is death, so anything that could have theoretically happen is only a theory and nothing more.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Thordan received a pretty raw deal. .

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You completely missed a key difference between Thordan and Ysayle. Thordan knew quite well that the Dragonsong War was based off a lie. He was more than content to keep that lie going so long as it kept him in power. The Ascians provided him with a way to increase his power namely to become a primal and then end the war, which would drive Ishgard into a fervent state and allow him to wage a campaign of conquest. With war ended, he could shift to use the Garleans as his reason for conquering and "unifying" Eorzea. There was nothing redeemable about Thordan, he was a power hungry man who would use whatever means, including genocide, to get more power.

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At any rate, 4.0 handled the antagonists far better. It helps that they received a greater amount of time on screen this time around and the protagonists are at least attempting to understand their point of view. It remains to be seen what becomes of those particular plot points, though.

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That's only because Zenos didn't have the same motivations as everyone else.

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We did what we had to do - the alternative was, as Elidibus suggests, allowing another Calamity to come to pass. (Of course, just why this kills Thordan and not Ysayle I couldn't say.)

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Thordan's not dead. He became a primal and when we defeated him, he did what all primals do, dissipate back into the aether. With enough crystals and prayer, a particularly religious cult could summon him back into being. The reason this is unlikely is the only people who knew what he became aren't too keen on that happening. Ysayle's power is more akin to summoning. She summons her idea of Shiva into herself, but she still remains in control thanks to the Echo.

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Originally Posted by Delily

Thordan's not dead. He became a primal and when we defeated him, he did what all primals do, dissipate back into the aether. With enough crystals and prayer, a particularly religious cult could summon him back into being. <...> Ysayle's power is more akin to summoning. She summons her idea of Shiva into herself, but she still remains in control thanks to the Echo.

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I think this is the first time I've seen this particular interpretation. I've been operating under different assumptions until now:

First, a premise: An old post by Fernehalwes suggests that many (if not all) primals are anchored onto the soul of something that died, was shorn apart by the Lifestream, and had its (still dead and broken) pieces re-materialized into something new. If it's possible for summoning to result in a resurrection rather than a reconfiguration, we've yet to see it. (I'm not even 100% sure that we've seen a primal built from scratch, without that anchor soul, but the idea can't be discarded, yet.)

Ysayle's summoning (allegedly) acted as a beacon for the shattered pieces of the soul of Saint Shiva and reconfigured them into a primal power-suit that merged with her own soul, allowing her to become a vessel for the primal Shiva - a goddess born from her own delusions.

The above interpretation makes Thordan sound like Phoenix, whereby (as far as presently-available materials suggest, including Louisoix's own beliefs) his own soul was stuffed full of primal-like power via aether and prayer and he was transformed into a "pseudo-primal". Summoning Phoenix again would reconfigure Louisoix's soul and bind his remains and memory to that manifestation forever, much like the Allagan general who has become Garuda. The thought gives the twins enough pause that they just don't ever tell anyone what happened.

But Thordan VII was more like Shiva than Phoenix, no? Over time the soul of Thordan I had been deified - given impossible dimensions, power, and splendor through a thousand years of embellishment and worship. The soul of Thordan I is what Thordan VII claims he's drawing into himself, merging with it like Ysayle (even though Nabriales's lines suggest that only those with the Echo can act as vessels for divine influx; a mystery for the ages). Also like Ysayle, we pummel him until he can't hold onto it anymore. Unlike Ysayle, the old man can't take the beating and exhaustion and just dies. (That would have been an interesting thing to point to like, "That's what happens when you don't have the Echo! You're permanently enmeshed until you die!" but One Primal, Two Primal, Red Primal, Blue Primal contradicts the Encyclopaedia Eorzea and implies that Thordan VII was primal enough to bless the Heavens Ward long before the transformation we actually witness; a mystery for the ages.)

So Thordan I's soul has been warped and returned to the aether. And Thordan VII is also in the aether, but probably just as a dead old guy returned to the Lifestream. Now, if someone were to summon him again ... which would they get? Could be either, depending on their beliefs...

Unless I'm misinterpreting it, lol.

Folks need to stop trying to portray Thordan as a mwa ha ha moustache-twirling evil villain. He was a LOT more nuanced than that.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

We found out the truth thanks to our echo, which was also known by Thordan and we saw how he reacted when his own son spoke to him about this. He tortured and imprisoned his own son and wanted to use force to end this war which would have meant countless of deaths, lots of consumed aether and people that are living a "good" life thanks to being tempered.

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First off, Aymeric was never tortured, as far as I can remember. After his conversation with his father, he was imprisoned to stop him from interfering - which was uncharacteristically merciful for the papacy who have been known to drop folks off cliffs merely on suspicion of sympathy toward dragons. Aymeric's claims, that Ishgard was the perpetrator of the war and that the dragons were the aggrieved party, were nothing short of heresy - officially, at least - and had Thordan desired it he COULD have tortured or killed Aymeric. But he didn't. Even when executing his son would most likely have been the wisest course of action at that point, he chose to imprison him instead, and that came back to bite him when his imprisonment prompted us to enter the Vault and bust him out. These are not the actions of a ruthless megalomaniac, but of a well-intentioned extremist. Or, at the very least, they are the actions of a man who draws the line at killing his own son.

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Originally Posted by Delily

You completely missed a key difference between Thordan and Ysayle. Thordan knew quite well that the Dragonsong War was based off a lie. He was more than content to keep that lie going so long as it kept him in power. The Ascians provided him with a way to increase his power namely to become a primal and then end the war, which would drive Ishgard into a fervent state and allow him to wage a campaign of conquest. With war ended, he could shift to use the Garleans as his reason for conquering and "unifying" Eorzea. There was nothing redeemable about Thordan, he was a power hungry man who would use whatever means, including genocide, to get more power.

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His conversation with Aymeric, too, reveals that he's NOT in this game for power for its own sake. He played the game to the end, well after it was clear the War was coming to an end, because he believed that revealing the truth to Ishgard would BREAK its people. He was willing to do anything to ensure that the truth remained hidden, that his people be allowed to believe that they'd been fighting and dying for a thousand years for a NOBLE cause. To ensure that the millennial lie remain the truth of Ishgard, he was willing to get primaled up in order to continue the holy war until none were left to contest the truth as the papacy told it. In truth, of course, Ishgard's people were stronger than that and (most of them) did not break under the weight of the truth, but Thordan had no way of knowing that would be the case. And, truthfully, neither did Aymeric or his allies - and their faith in the people of Ishgard paid off.

It's fine to believe, if you like, that Thordan was in it because he couldn't stand the idea of not being in power, that he wanted to lord it over everyone for his own ego. However, understand that this is only personal interpretation, and is not supported by the dialog in the game. The game paints him as a man BURDENED by his power, performing terrible acts for what he sees to be the greater good.

So, that's a lot to take in! I admit I had a rather simplistic view of what a primal was. My understanding based on Hraesvelgr's lines was that a primal is essentially a massive aetheric construct that's imbued with a form of sentience because it's summoned with emotions and memories of its followers. (Arcanists, on the other hand, summon carbuncle using a series of mathematical formulas). In the case of a primal, the memories and emotions of the summoners are "given life" by the aether, which is why primals have personalities and memories, unlike a carbuncle. I also see a rather cyclic nature to primals. The more a primal is summoned, the more definite the form become, the more the aether use to construct it is influenced by the primal until it becomes an elder primal which no longer needs the beliefs of it's followers to take shape since there's enough aspected aether in the life stream. I may be wrong in all this, feel free to correct me!

The primary difference I saw between Ysayle and Thordan was the Echo. I took that to mean Ysayle was able to keep her aetheric essence from becoming intertwined with Shiva, allowing her to change back and forth from a primal. With Thordan VII, my understanding is that his "ascension" was similar to Louisoix's, meaning that his aether is now intertwined with Thordan I's, so you can't summon one without the other. The thing that strikes me as being different about these primals and the beastmen primals is that they were summoned into sentient, living beings, so the resulting entity is mixture of the formerly mortal's personality and the personality of the newly created primal. Garuda, Ifrit, Bahamut, etc. were all created from the memories of their respective summoners, which is why they tend to be a bit more single minded.

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Folks need to stop trying to portray Thordan as a mwa ha ha moustache-twirling evil villain. He was a LOT more nuanced than that.

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And you need to stop thinking there's something redeemable about Thordan. For most of the Big Bads, the writers have done quite a bit to show us that in their own minds, they genuinely believe they are right. The 2 exceptions to that are Zenos, who is arguable psychotic, and Thordan, who is clearly a megalomaniac. His conversation with Ayermic was less about the burden of leadership, and more about tripping him up and confusing him. He literally says he wants to become a god, and then refers to himself as a god-king. He then says that no matter where chaos is, he will excise it with his sword and install order. He's not a cartoon villian, but he's not nuanced either.

...and as has been pointed out throughout numerous threads on this particular sub-forum, a lot of these discussions ultimately come down to personal interpretations of very complicated and nuanced issues. Thordan did not lack in depth and his motivations aren't entirely selfish. Furthermore, the protagonists are hypocritical at many points in the story as they themselves are more than willing to rely on brute force brought forth as a result of divine blessing to achieve the goals that they deem worthy of pursuing, often with similar levels of sacrifices and bloodshed involved. You can argue that the ends justify the means but so, too, can that be done from the perspective of many of the game's antagonists. Especially when pretty much every major character - antagonist or protagonist - ends up playing right into the Ascian's plans at various points.

The Archbishop needed to be stopped due to Tempering and his very existence draining the aether around him...but I can't condemn him for being self righteous when that is literally the driving force behind the majority of the major protagonists recently. Lyse being a prime example...though that's a discussion point for another thread, I suppose.

Ultimately, Thordan did not believe in the Ishgardian people - that they were strong enough to stand the truth, and so sought to strip them of their individuality and free will. That alone should be reason enough to go against him; freedom and self-determination are things definitely worth fighting for. Aymeric identifies his father's motivations as such prior to the Grand Melee.

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Originally Posted by Aymeric

... I believe we must right the wrongs of antiquity and move forward as a nation united. Needless to say, my father did not share this opinion. He did not believe the people strong enough to bring about their own deliverance, trusting only in himself. Tyranny seemed to him the only solution.

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Tyranny is never a solution to a problem. It just makes things worse. (Of course, we ended up being the instrument of Ishgard's deliverance, but... we're citizens of Eorzea too. Why should we not fight for her people?)

It's not about history and traditions. We shouldn't allow someone who only believes in himself to go unchecked when his belief is that he has to tyrannize his country for its own good.

... and, reading between the lines, Thordan seems to care much more about building and maintaining his personal power than the people of Ishgard. He would have forced a lie onto them because he did not believe them strong enough to handle the truth; that doing so would give him even more absolute and eternal dominion over Ishgard is... unlikely to be a mere coincidence.

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Originally Posted by King Thordan

By my blessing shall all men be sanctified, and an endless era of peace begin. Vice and conflict shall cease to be.

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... at the cost of individuality and free will? No thanks. (Vice is what defines our humanity and conflict, for better or worse, is a natural part of life.)

Aymeric may have claimed to put his faith in his people but he only really succeeded thanks to leaning heavily on the Warrior of Light to solve many of Ishgard's problems. Which, in turn, simply means that the flavour of the divine power differs. The Archbishop may very well have been a bigger threat overall due to wanting to resort to absolute control but as far as I'm concerned that's balanced out to some degree by the Warrior of Light and his allies simply putting a great many people to the sword simply for differing loyalties and beliefs.

Ul'dah, too, is built on a pillar of lies thanks to the situation surrounding Sil'dah yet the truth is hidden. As if that wasn't enough, the Sultana's supposed death was also hidden from the general public all in the name of 'preventing disorder' which is not dissimilar to what the Archbishop sought to do. Granted, he took things further but there is very much as case of 'Do as I say, not as I do!' at play when it comes to the protagonists.

The only "problems" of Ishgard's that we solved was nipping King Thordan in the bud and putting an end to Nidhogg. The rest was politicking done by Aymeric. We, too, are Eorzean citizens - should we not involve ourselves in Eorzean affairs? We do not simply put others down for differing loyalties and beliefs - we do so because they are a threat to the peace, freedom, and/or well-being of others (and, oftentimes, ourselves - fighting in self-defense is not wrong).

The people of Ishgard learned the truth. Despite resistance, with some convincing Aymeric was able to get them to leave behind their hatred and look to the future unburdened by it. That wasn't us.

Everyone's a hypocrite, protagonist and antagonist alike. (Gaius: "Might makes right!" *three fights and one magical nuke later* "... but my way is right, even though you're mightier...") Get over it.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Calling shenanigans; that wasn't the Archbishop's motivation at all.

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I've never undersood why people are so confused about Thordan's ”true motivations” when the man himself explains what exactly he was doing right when we meet him for the first time.

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Originally Posted by Archbishob Thordan VII

Those harbingers of chaos and strife offered us power, that we might continue our war against the dragons.
I have no intention of aiding their cause, of course, nor less of being their puppet.
Yet were I to refuse them outright, I should learn naught of their true objectives and remain powerless to stop them.
Thus have I hearkened to their words with interest, and paid lip service to their beliefs, biding my time and preparing for the inevitable conflict.

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He knows what the Ascians are and what they do and took their offer to lure them into a trap.

Defeating the Dravanians with the aid of a primal was a plausible reason for them to teach him how to summon one so he could use it against them. If he actually managed to kill Nidhogg with it too then that's two birds with one stone. After Nidhogg's death he puts up a show about trying to keep a lid on the lie to make sure the Ascians think he's still on board of their plans and has some flimsy excuse to want some of that primal power.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

and later tells us that he intends to "bless" all men in order to bring about an "endless era of peace" where "vice and conflict [have ceased] to be."

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This is where my belief that Thordan did not have the Echo comes into play.

After he raises his staff and the lightshow starts Thordan the Archbishob is no more, there's only Thordan the Primal. And of course he's foaming at the mouth about peace and order because he's a primal that was summoned to put an end to one of those harbingers of chaos and strife; to kill Lahabrea.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Folks need to stop trying to portray Thordan as a mwa ha ha moustache-twirling evil villain. He was a LOT more nuanced than that.

First off, Aymeric was never tortured, as far as I can remember.

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He is nuanced (and I like him as an enemy) but he is far from being innocent and imo deserved his fate at the end.

Yes Aymeric was tortured. He went there in fine health but after we free him out of his prison he is hurt and has problems with standing straight. That imo does not happen from just sitting in prison. Yes he could have just killed his son but he might still have felt some sort of emotion towards him and who knows if he wouldnt had just tempered him after he was done with us. If he would have killed us and let Aymeric rot in prison there would have been no people left that could have opposed him thus he could have a free hand.

He might have told these kind of motivations to Aymeric but in the fight against us he made it quite clear that he wants to rule all and since he already tempered his faithful knights, he would achieve his reign with tempering too. That are not the actions of a good man. He also knew the truth yet kept on having the war go on, and turned primal even though we were already trying to achieve true peace. IMO its better to let the people know the truth than keeping them living a lie that would just end in so much sadness, rage and hate.

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Originally Posted by Lutefisk

I
He knows what the Ascians are and what they do and took their offer to lure them into a trap.

Defeating the Dravanians with the aid of a primal was a plausible reason for them to teach him how to summon one so he could use it against them. If he actually managed to kill Nidhogg with it too then that's two birds with one stone. After Nidhogg's death he puts up a show about trying to keep a lid on the lie to make sure the Ascians think he's still on board of their plans and has some flimsy excuse to want some of that primal power.

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If it was only about Ascians why not work truly together with the WoL? Instead after we take care of one Ascians and he took down the other one, he turns around and immediately challenge us to a fight to the death. Why do that if the only reason he took all the power, was to defeat the Ascians? Its just simply because we know the truth behind the war and this was not good for his plan which was declaring himself a god-king and make a reign of peace by using his power (and probably tempering) and letting all people live a life full of lies (and maybe even not free will). On top of that this might have meant the death of the whole dragons since they are a thorn in his eye even though not everyone was fighting against them. Such a fight would probably not have ended fast since the elder dragons are not that weak thus lots of death, consumed aether and maybe another calamity depending on the scale of such a battle.

We did not know how the people would react to the news and maybe they all would have been in denial and it could have ended in a different way but at least Aymeric would have done all he could and people would have their own choice if they believe it or not. Thankfully it turns out well, without the need of constant tyranny and countless deaths, the change of their government and maybe a way brighter future for the common people somewhere down the line.

Ysayle never wanted to conquer them all and did not want to force her will onto the whole people. She just wanted to reveal the truth and change the fate of not only the dragons but also of the people. She did it not in a good way (and a bit naive too) but she saw through her mistakes and tried to redeem herself at the end.

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Originally Posted by Delily

In the case of a primal, the memories and emotions of the summoners are "given life" by the aether, which is why primals have personalities and memories, unlike a carbuncle.

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Ah, but are Carbuncles truly without personality and memory? While memory is hard to judge, we've seen at least two cases of Carbuncles that seem to have their own will and personality: the one that ran away from Tataru during her brief stint as an Arcanist, and the one in Mor Dhona whose owner is constantly trying to find it. Maybe also the Diamond Carbuncle owned by the Anima quest NPC in Idyllshire. It really does seem as though Arcanists are bringing actual life-forms into existence, not just aetheric machines.

Primals do seem to be a very different sort of aetheric life form, but this may well be by design. It could be that it's entirely possible to summon a Primal-like being that does NOT guzzle Aether or Temper people (a giant Carbuncle, essentially) - but that Primals were specifically intended by the Ascians to do those things.

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Originally Posted by Delily

And you need to stop thinking there's something redeemable about Thordan. For most of the Big Bads, the writers have done quite a bit to show us that in their own minds, they genuinely believe they are right. The 2 exceptions to that are Zenos, who is arguable psychotic, and Thordan, who is clearly a megalomaniac. His conversation with Ayermic was less about the burden of leadership, and more about tripping him up and confusing him. He literally says he wants to become a god, and then refers to himself as a god-king. He then says that no matter where chaos is, he will excise it with his sword and install order. He's not a cartoon villian, but he's not nuanced either.

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Trip Aymeric up and confuse him? Why would Thordan bother doing that - the guy is right there in front of him, and can do absolutely nothing to oppose him since Thordan can just lock him up (which he did) or kill him outright (which he didn't). The only way tripping up Aymeric makes sense, is if Aymeric still posed a threat - which, at this point, he did not.

As for insight, we do get insight into Thordan, via two conversations with the guy. In the first, in which we talk to him personally, he tells us that Ascians have approached him, that he intends to play along with them, and plans to ultimately betray them. He did exactly these things. In the second, during his conversation with Aymeric, he announces his intentions to continue suppressing the truth of Ishgard's guilt for the sake of Ishgard's people. He goes on to go to great extremes to do exactly that.

If he has deeper motivations than the ones he said aloud, they are never revealed in game - so if you're going to imagine such deeper motivations, that's entirely on you. The game does nothing to support those conclusions. Basically, we are being provided with evidence to Thordan's motivations (from his own mouth), and you are choosing to believe that he is lying, even though every word he spoke is supported by his actions in game. Cilia's guilty of this, too, suggesting that since Thordan decided to gain the power of a Primal in order to enforce the great lie, gaining that power must have been his true motivation. I choose, instead, to believe that Thordan was being earnest when he spoke of how difficult the burden of the truth was, and that choosing to bear that burden into eternity as an everlasting Primal was, to him, a tremendous act of self-sacrifice, not an opportunity for self-aggrandizement.

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*Various people's quote's about how Thordan isn't justified.*

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Please don't take my defense of the guy to at all indicate that I believe he was in the right or justified in what he did. Thordan absolutely DID need to be stopped. He was a tyrant through-and-through - a reluctant tyrant, but a tyrant nonetheless. He had no faith in the strength of his people, and his solution to keep them safe and happy was to remove their freedom, and the freedom of everyone else in the world, to boot. He was a threat not only to the future of Ishgard, but of the entire world. No, my beef is with the idea that tyranny was the end, not the means; the idea that he wanted the power for his own sake, rather than for the sake of the people of Ishgard.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Ah, but are Carbuncles truly without personality and memory? While memory is hard to judge, we've seen at least two cases of Carbuncles that seem to have their own will and personality: the one that ran away from Tataru during her brief stint as an Arcanist, and the one in Mor Dhona whose owner is constantly trying to find it. Maybe also the Diamond Carbuncle owned by the Anima quest NPC in Idyllshire. It really does seem as though Arcanists are bringing actual life-forms into existence, not just aetheric machines.

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The Sharlayans also extensively used magic to animate household objects and give them sentience, or some semblance of it, if Matoya's frogs and brooms are any indication. I'd actually love to see an entire society that runs on magical servant labour.

Anyway, all this shows that it is possible to create a sentient lifeform purely through magic. I have a headcanon that carbuncles are granted personalities based on the state of the gemstone used to summon/create them. A Topaz carby summoned from a polished, faceted topaz, for example, might be more refined than one summoned from a chunk of topaz freshly-dug out of the rock. They would still share the basic traits of all Topaz carbuncles, but beyond that it's up to the gemstone.

Carbuncles are also aetherial constructs, but they are not the same as Primals. Many Aetherial constructs do appear to have at least some level of sentience. The creatures constructed by Omega seem to have a level of sentience, such as ho Alpha shows clear fear and emotion. Similarly, the carbuncles, while presumably bestial in their mental faculties, do have a will and personality of their own.The fairies of Nym seem to have even more self-determination, although they are mute and unable to speak. They can complete many acts that show clear self-determination, up to an including possessing other creatures. One of the key differences between Carbuncles and Primals is their capacity to absorb aether. Carbuncles only utilize the aether of their creator, and a relatively small amount of it too. If that aether is cut off (IE, they're desummoned, or their creator dies) they quite simply cease to exist. This is especially important to Eorzeans since it prevents the massive aetherial imbalances caused by primals or the exploitative magic of the Ampador and Mhchach. So while they are similar in that they are both beings constructed from aether, they have several key differences.

Primals, in contrast, have much more specific steps for creating/summoning them, with only the Ascians possessing the knowledge to do so. They have the ability to suck aether from their surroundings, which can allow them a much greater degree of permanence. Some of them even use tricks to last almost indefinitely, such as getting extra belief through tempering (almost all), or binding themselves to an object (Odin). They are clearly altered by the mental states of the people using them, and they even appear to create some sort of lifestream presence when they do so, although I wonder if that part's still true. After all they were proven to be nothing more than illusions by Hraesvelgr, who mentioned that they definitely are NOT the original souls in most cases.

As for the headcanon on the crystals, there is already confirmation that the type and purity of the stone used affects the final carbuncle, so it's really more of a pretty logical extrapolation than anything. Also I love it.

Truly, the face of a reluctant tyrant burdened by purpose.

http://i850.photobucket.com/albums/a...g?t=1505869433

/sarcasm

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Truly, the face of a reluctant tyrant burdened by purpose.

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Image link is broken. Such a letdown.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

If it was only about Ascians why not work truly together with the WoL?

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Thordan does propose that you consider aiding his cause in the audience that takes place after the trial.

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Originally Posted by Archbishob Thordan VII

If we are to rid ourselves of these vile interlopers, we must needs work together. With our combined strenght, I have faith we can wrest Eorzea from their grasp, and pave the way for a lasting peace. Think on it.

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But when Aymeric barges in his office flinging accusations at him while refusing to disclose how he came to know about all those things he comes to the conclusion that his trust in WoL was misplaced and proceeds with his plans of Ascian annihilation alone.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Instead after we take care of one Ascians and he took down the other one, he turns around and immediately challenge us to a fight to the death. Why do that if the only reason he took all the power, was to defeat the Ascians?

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Like I said, at this point Aymeric's father is gone and the only thing left is the peace and order primal. Much like Ga Bu's Titan it still retains some of his personality and does acknowledge that you would try to dispose of him, but he won't go down without a fight because the Archbishob has no control over it like Ysayle does with Shiva.

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Originally Posted by King Thordan

I am become that which you abhor, Warrior of Light. If you would take issue with my godhood, I shall answer to you with my blade.

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He knew what awaited him if he would do it a deemed dying by our hand an acceptable price to pay for having one less Ascian around.

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Originally Posted by Lutefisk

He knew what awaited him if he would do it a deemed dying by our hand an acceptable price to pay for having one less Ascian around.

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Not like we had a way to kill lahabrea either, since we used that plot device on the other one. All we could do at best is chase him away, leaving him free to plot anew.

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Originally Posted by Raqrie_Tohka

Image link is broken. Such a letdown.

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Damn you, Photobucket!

https://i.imgur.com/WYZkTQX.jpg?1

... did I manage to capture his reluctance and burden? /sarcasm

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Damn you, Photobucket!

https://i.imgur.com/WYZkTQX.jpg?1

... did I manage to capture his reluctance and burden? /sarcasm

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For a while there, I thought you were referring to Photobucket as the tyrant. Which was both hilarious and appropriate, because screw them.

I'm surprised that Photobucket is still a thing, honestly.

I've long since gotten into the habit of just uploading stuff to imgur or tumblr.

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Trip Aymeric up and confuse him? Why would Thordan bother doing that - the guy is right there in front of him, and can do absolutely nothing to oppose him since Thordan can just lock him up (which he did) or kill him outright (which he didn't). The only way tripping up Aymeric makes sense, is if Aymeric still posed a threat - which, at this point, he did not.

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Thordan viewed his son as a tool. He was betting on Ayermic's naivety and sense of honor to see things from the perspective of preserving the past to retain social order to get Ayermic to agree with him.

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As for insight, we do get insight into Thordan, via two conversations with the guy. In the first, in which we talk to him personally, he tells us that Ascians have approached him, that he intends to play along with them, and plans to ultimately betray them. He did exactly these things. In the second, during his conversation with Aymeric, he announces his intentions to continue suppressing the truth of Ishgard's guilt for the sake of Ishgard's people. He goes on to go to great extremes to do exactly that.

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And then we get his dialog when he gets the second eye and transforms into a primal.

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If he has deeper motivations than the ones he said aloud, they are never revealed in game - so if you're going to imagine such deeper motivations, that's entirely on you. The game does nothing to support those conclusions. Basically, we are being provided with evidence to Thordan's motivations (from his own mouth), and you are choosing to believe that he is lying, even though every word he spoke is supported by his actions in game. Cilia's guilty of this, too, suggesting that since Thordan decided to gain the power of a Primal in order to enforce the great lie, gaining that power must have been his true motivation. I choose, instead, to believe that Thordan was being earnest when he spoke of how difficult the burden of the truth was, and that choosing to bear that burden into eternity as an everlasting Primal was, to him, a tremendous act of self-sacrifice, not an opportunity for self-aggrandizement.

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He literally says his intention is to become a god. He says that when they bring the remains of Thordan I to him. When he transforms, he calls himself a god-king, destroys the ascian, then says he plans to seek out all chaos and excise it with his sword of righteousness, and that if we have a problem with it he's going to fight us. That is in the cut scene right before we gain access to the Singularity Reactor. Did you not pay attention?

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But when Aymeric barges in his office flinging accusations at him while refusing to disclose how he came to know about all those things he comes to the conclusion that his trust in WoL was misplaced and proceeds with his plans of Ascian annihilation alone.

He knew what awaited him if he would do it a deemed dying by our hand an acceptable price to pay for having one less Ascian around.

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https://youtu.be/iZNm1pF-kbs?t=18698
"I am become a god.."
"Your contempt for man has proven your undoing. For my first act as god-king, I sentence you to death"
"Seeds of chaos, I shall excise them with my divine blade and bring order to the world"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGi1YPELLFQ
"Fight me if you will, Warrior of Light. I care not, all who stand against me will be destroyed, be they servants of Light or Darkness" "By my blessing, all men shall be sanctified, and an endless era of peace begins, and conflict shall cease to be."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUncyDO8CPY
"How can this be? A millennium of prayer and the Eye's powers combined, and yet you still stand?"

Why are you so intent on portraying Thordan as some suffering misunderstood hero who sacrificed himself to destroy a singe Ascian, when the game makes it quite clear he's for power over all of mankind?

Shiva- self sustaining, deluded but not corrupted, fighting to end a war, self sacrificing, ultimately sees the error in her approach, doesn't temper anyone.

Thordan- uses stolen dragon eyes to end a war started over stolen dragon eyes, lies to his people to keep them subjugated, corrupted by the eyes and his own lust for control and power, willing to crush any who defy him, tempers and alters his own knights.

It's pretty obvious why one was "left alone" while the other was put down

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Originally Posted by Delily

When he transforms, he calls himself a god-king, destroys the ascian, then says he plans to seek out all chaos and excise it with his sword of righteousness, and that if we have a problem with it he's going to fight us.

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I addressed this in one of my posts. King Thordan =/= Archbishob Thordan VII

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Originally Posted by Delily

Why are you so intent on portraying Thordan as some suffering misunderstood hero who sacrificed himself to destroy a singe Ascian, when the game makes it quite clear he's for power over all of mankind?

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If it was power for its own sake that he was after, there was no reason for him to wait to pull out the primal card after he got his hands on the key to Azys Lla. He could have cracked open the containment bays and slurped up all the eikon juice while we were still dismantling golems in Idyllshire. He didn't do that. He waited for us to arrive to Azys Lla and duke it out with Lahabrea and Igeyorhm to see if we could take them out on our own before wasting that one chance he had at killing them. It's only after when it becomes clear that two Ascians is too much for one WoL to handle that he transforms to finish off Lahabrea.

I'm not saying that Thordan was a hero. Not after what he did to Zephirin and the others. I'm merely contesting the claim that he was a power-hungry megalomaniac.

Archbishop Thordan was still a better character than Zenos. At least he had partial credibility for his actions. Zenos just sort of gave up on any form of decency.

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Originally Posted by Lutefisk

I addressed this in one of my posts. King Thordan =/= Archbishob Thordan VII

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You can't separate the primal from the man like that. In fact, my interpretation of that is that is the primal is 100% the archbishop. When you defeat him, he reverts to his human form before dissipating.

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If it was power for its own sake that he was after, there was no reason for him to wait to pull out the primal card after he got his hands on the key to Azys Lla. He could have cracked open the containment bays and slurped up all the eikon juice while we were still dismantling golems in Idyllshire. He didn't do that. He waited for us to arrive to Azys Lla and duke it out with Lahabrea and Igeyorhm to see if we could take them out on our own before wasting that one chance he had at killing them. It's only after when it becomes clear that two Ascians is too much for one WoL to handle that he transforms to finish off Lahabrea.

I'm not saying that Thordan was a hero. Not after what he did to Zephirin and the others. I'm merely contesting the claim that he was a power-hungry megalomaniac.

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He was a power hungry megalomaniac. My memory is fuzzy, but he didn't have both eyes then. He can't absorb aether out of the air, he needed a large supply of it to initiate the transformation. He didn't kill Lahabrea out of any concern, but to establish his own dominance. He saw we can't kill them, and by effortlessly doing so, he sought to prove to himself and us that he was more powerful than us.

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Originally Posted by Raqrie_Tohka

Archbishop Thordan was still a better character than Zenos. At least he had partial credibility for his actions. Zenos just sort of gave up on any form of decency.

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This is another discussion we're having. Zenos has no reason to be decent. His position as the crown prince meant he was surrounded by people currying his favor, and his training and the experiments the Empire performed on him have rendered him the most powerful person around. I'd also say he is a genuine sociopath, from the perspective that he lacks empathy, and views everyone else as thing in his hunts and games. It's hard to do this in a video game, but if you met someone like Zenos in the wild, he would be genuinely terrifying.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lutefisk

I addressed this in one of my posts. King Thordan =/= Archbishob Thordan VII

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Why do you assume that he was not himself when he turned primal? Ysayle never lost her sense of herself so why should we assume that it was different with Thordan?

He was also going to Azys Lla because there was the Triade waiting with even more aether to consume for him. Also if he saw that we are quite able to kill Ascians why turn primal at all? He could just handed us the second eye that they were carrying around and let us kill the second Ascian with it.

And lets not forget that the knights could already turn into their primal part quite early in the story. We hear them with their primal voice in one of the cutscenes after a meeting. I dare to say that this was not Thordan first transformation because he needed to be a primal at least once before he fought against us to give his knight their form and to temper them. So it does not make much sense that he would lose his own self.

Also having a far worse motive is one big story plot for a lot of bad ones. They are used to make us believe that they are fine and yet near the end they suddenly turn around and reveal what this was all truly about.

Thordan was a schemer. He played every party to get what he wanted.

He used the Ascians to learn how to become a primal, and likely from them learned of Azys Lla and the power held within.

He used the Scions (really just us and Alphinaud) to get rid of Nidhogg and get him the key to Azys Lla. He consolidated his power base while we were out.

Thordan's plan was to learn to become a primal. Then, after Nidhogg was slain, get us to kill Bismarck for him so he could get to Azys Lla. Once there he simply bided his time, knowing we'd come for him and that the Ascians would interfere. After the battle he would step in and kill those who still stood, be they servants of the Darkness or the Light, after going primal. Afterwards he'd return to Ishgard, sanctify (temper) everyone, and lead the nation on a crusade against the world before eventually putting it under his heel.

The only thing that went wrong with Thordan's plan was... us. We proved powerful enough to stand against him, and so his house of cards collapsed.

Thordan carries the same train of thought before and after going primal.

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Originally Posted by Archbishop Thordan VII

By taking unto my flesh the soul of the legendary King Thordan, I am become a god -

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by King Thordan

A god who knows not cessation, whose being is sustained by a millennium of fervent prayer and the Eye's nigh bottomless reservoir of aether.

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Pretty hard time believing the Archbishop wasn't in control...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Delily

He literally says his intention is to become a god. He says that when they bring the remains of Thordan I to him. When he transforms, he calls himself a god-king, destroys the ascian, then says he plans to seek out all chaos and excise it with his sword of righteousness, and that if we have a problem with it he's going to fight us. That is in the cut scene right before we gain access to the Singularity Reactor. Did you not pay attention?

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And all of this is in service to his stated goals: Defeat the Ascians, protect Ishgard's legacy. He was convinced that he was the only one qualified to do those things, and also knew that he would literally require the power of a god to accomplish them. He also believed that in order to maintain Ishgard's lie and preserve the dignity of its people, it would become necessary to subjugate anyone who could conceivably be a threat to Ishgard. Even after becoming a Primal, he continued to be perfectly frank and honest, telling us straight up what his plans were, and what he would do if we tried to stop him.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Delily

Why are you so intent on portraying Thordan as some suffering misunderstood hero who sacrificed himself to destroy a singe Ascian, when the game makes it quite clear he's for power over all of mankind?

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Misunderstood, yes, but not a hero. He was definitely after power over all mankind, but not because he desired to rule them. He wanted that power because he felt that they needed to be ruled, and that he was the only one qualified for the job. By his reckoning, his (and anyone else's) personal feelings on the matter were inconsequential to the greater need.

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Misunderstood, yes, but not a hero. He was definitely after power over all mankind, but not because he desired to rule them. He wanted that power because he felt that they needed to be ruled, and that he was the only one qualified for the job. By his reckoning, his (and anyone else's) personal feelings on the matter were inconsequential to the greater need.

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:confused:

How can you say he didn't want power over all of mankind? He manipulated and deceived everyone around him to accomplish his goals, and then when got what he wanted, he moved from claiming to end the war to taking over mankind. He was convinced he was right and that everyone else was wrong. That sounds like a megalomaniac to me.

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Originally Posted by Delily

How can you say he didn't want power over all of mankind?

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I... didn't say that? In fact, the words you bolded explicitly say that yes, he did want power over all mankind?

Now I'm getting confused...

But to address the rest of what you said, he never "moved on" from anything. Taking over mankind was how he PLANNED to end the war - it was the means, not the end. He did not want power for power's sake; he wanted power to accomplish a goal. And the war did not end with Nidhogg's defeat or a peaceful settlement with the dragons - in Thordan's mind, the war would only end when Ishgard was safe. Ishgard would never be safe as long as the threat of the truth behind its shady past still had a chance to break its people. His solution: control every last person on the planet, and that truth would be buried forever.

Thordan likely WAS a megalomaniac, and I don't think I've ever claimed otherwise - but all megalomania does not mean that Thordan was motivated by self-interest. Megalomania is the belief that you are greater than others, and Thordan certainly believed that he, alone, was qualified to decide the future of Ishgard. That doesn't change the fact that he wanted the power not for his own benefit, but for the benefit of Ishgard.

Note: Thordan's plan for burying Ishgard's past was to sanctify (re: temper) all Ishgardians, then all mankind. However, had he simply stopped at Ishgard, they simply would not care whether people told them the truth or not. Sanctifying all mankind was not necessary to keep the truth about Ishgard's past hidden from its people.

Thordan's goal was to "sanctify all [mankind]" in order to bring about "an endless era of peace" where "vice and conflict [had ceased] to be."

I think we are missing something important.

It is entirely possible for Thordan to not realize the route his primal form would take with his wish even as he used himself to summon him. He wanted Ishgard safe from its enemies,but what are his enemies? His own son's revelations upending the society, the global chessmasters he wheeled and dealed with to stop the Dravanians, the killer of Nidhogg and his primal slaying buddy, even the remnants of the church he leads, lead on by the false comforts ascribed to Halone...The list is extensive once he pops that cork, and yet pop he must ,then and there, to kill the otherwise nigh unkillable Lahabrea(and his ladyfriend(Iegorhym?), had we not done the deed ourselves.)

I think Thordan's goals might not have been megalomanical at the start, but became that as the primal's interpretation of his summons. From Cilia's quotes, the name change is very important here. That the name reverts to King Thordan afterward tells me that the bishop was no longer in control of the primal, and it was the entity's will taking dominance and running with it. In the reverse example, when we see Zenos take control of Shinryu, all of his lines are still "Zenos yae Galvus", even as they are reduced to dragon roars. Shinryu's will is overtaken, hence whenever Zenos speaks with it, it is always Zenos named and not Shinryu.