RDM's Vercure should be removed or heavily nerfed

Your thesis falls apart when Red Mages in the upper 90 to 100th percentile are still fairly low. Or are you claiming every party a RDM is in ever had people dying left and right?

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Originally Posted by Zzzlol94

There's no doubt that RDM's ability to solo content is due to Vercure being overpowered.

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Yeah! Nerf RDM in all the other content for PoTD! That makes a lot of sense! I love your made up statistic at the bottom too!

Considering how easily boss 2-shots you on potd 150+, vercure is totally OP, not to mention that the guy that's attempting that has said that you want to avoid using vercre as much as possible because you are giving up tons of dmg for it

After looking at the video for the 180 boss rdm is probably the only class that can solo potd right now. Sustain potion isn't enough for that meteor spam. Which in hindsight why make a 1-200 achievement when only one class has a chance of getting there?

Pretty sure the OP is a troll, has only made two posts, both about nerfing RDM and then says absolutely nothing on either thread.

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Originally Posted by Zzzlol94

There's no doubt that RDM's ability to solo content is due to Vercure being overpowered. Seriously, just think about it. Also RDM needs a lot more nerfs in general, when over 80% of casters are RDMs, it's clearly not balanced.

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So, you're suggesting RDM should be completely nerfed by lowering and/or removing stats, utilities and abilities that a Red Mage, a class that has been known as a jack-of-all-trades for 30 years. Just because you personally are having an issue with it.

Sorry, but this guy would like to speak to you about how dumb that proposal sounds. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...USA_boxart.jpg

I know my DPS is pretty high, but I still get out DPS'd by BLM, SAM just to name a few. No one's forcing you to RDM.

How about NO.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

Gee, you don't say? Do you mean like how every single other DPS job has had to handle these solo situations for the past 4 years?

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Like how every job but BLM and SMN has access to self-healing? ...And SMN has a (albeit short-lived) tank? And BLM has a %HP shield CD?

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Originally Posted by MaikoRaines

I know my DPS is pretty high, but I still get out DPS'd by BLM, SAM just to name a few. No one's forcing you to RDM.

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Embolden's damage boost to the party is effectively added to your bottom line.

Which, depending on the fight, would put Red Mage either 2-3% lower, or matching, Black mage.

No one's forcing anyone to Red Mage, but it's a bit disingenuous to pretend Red Mage isn't the best choice in all but the 'no mistake flawless speedrun' area.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Like how every job but BLM and SMN has access to self-healing? ...And SMN has a (albeit short-lived) tank? And BLM has a %HP shield CD?

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LOL yeah. How could I forget that SMNs Physick and BLMs Manawall are totally as powerful as mass spamming Vercure?

My comment was in regard to the person I quoted and their asinine comment that any sort of Vercure nerf would somehow require solo content to be nerfed to compensate.

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Originally Posted by Zzzlol94

Seriously, just think about it.

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Think about this instead. Most classes have a way to mitigate damage, and replenish their health. Ninja's have Shadow Shift, Monk's have earth's reply, Samurai have Third Eye Dragoon's have Life Surge, Black Mage's have mana wall Bard has Troubadour while all these classes get second wind, and the majority get bloodbath.

Red Mage has no way to mitigate damage, and vercure is their only significant heal. Vercure is fine when Red Mage's can't shield themselves like most classes can.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

(Which effectively adds 1% of Paladin, Warrior/Dark, Ninja, and Monk/Sam to your final tally)

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It's .125% of each of their dps. The total raid contribution of Embolden maxes out at .75% with 3 physical DPS. It's not remotely as important as people seem to believe it is and really needs to stop being used as an argument tool.

Can't wait until next Expac. Vercure II? VerMedica? VerRegen? VerAssize??!?!

:]

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

Can't wait until next Expac. Vercure II? VerMedica? VerRegen? VerAssize??!?!

:]

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Please god no. Hopefully Vercure remains the only healing RDM has.

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

Can't wait until next Expac. Vercure II? VerMedica? VerRegen? VerAssize??!?!

:]

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Verho- Oh wait a sec.

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

It's .125% of each of their dps. The total raid contribution of Embolden maxes out at .75% with 3 physical DPS. It's not remotely as important as people seem to believe it is and really needs to stop being used as an argument tool.

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May I see your reference on the math for this?

It's 16% uptime on an average of 6% physical damage increase for up to 5 other people. Which puts it at 1% of, using a standard meta comp, MOnk/Sam, Nin, Bard, and Warrior, and 1% of Paladin if it's done during FoF windows (which it may not be, so admittedly lower)

Taking into account just Samurai/Monk, Ninja, and Bard, is around 130-140 on top of what Red Mage parses show in high percentiles.

Which puts them close to Black Mage in terms of bottom line.

Embolden isn't utility. It's damage. It's perfectly acceptable to include it as a point of reference when pointing out inequities in actual Utility (like Raise).

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Please god no. Hopefully Vercure remains the only healing RDM has.

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It's bait mate. I could honestly see vercure II being a thing though. Fills a slot for the next expac only potency changes. Keeps the job the same.

But really when a rdm casts vercure its on themselves as if to say "Healers, I know i fawked up. Please understand that I'm sacrificing this gcd as penance. Please continue to heal me oh gods of the hp restore :["

That or during boss invulns/look aways. :p.

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

That or during boss invulns/look aways. :p.

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Turncasting!

Learn it, live it, love it! (Though I think a RDM would have to hardcast Veraero/Thunder to do it)

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

It's bait mate.

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Okay, ya got me. Good bait lol

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

snip

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Multiplying the 16%(well it's more like 1/6) and the 6% gives you the flat contribution of Embolden to rDPS. Divide the resulting number by 8, as that is the size of a full party. Reduce it by 2 partitions since 2 members are healers and don't do physical damage. Dividing the remainder by 6 equals .125% contribution per physical attacker to the rDPS increase of Embolden. Meaning the maximum amount of rDPS contribution you will ever get out of Embolden is a .75% increase. No it doesn't make up for the 2-400 DPS the most BLMs are ahead of most RDMs by, it barely hits 120 extra DPS to the RDM if you use the 1% figure, still not a relevant argument choice.

My math may be incorrect or some percents aren't where they should be, if it is, que sera sera. I haven't had to do intensive math for a couple years and I can't find the spreadsheet i calculated this out on.

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

My math may be incorrect or some percents aren't where they should be, if it is, que sera sera. I haven't had to do intensive math for a couple years and I can't find the spreadsheet i calculated this out on.

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Working through it, it makes sense, but we're basically saying the same amount, you just said it while including detail for the entire raid (My own left out healers and the Red Mage: Your target was 8, mine was 5)

However, .75% of 20,000 is still approximately 150 that belongs to the Red Mage, which must be added to their bottom line. That's why it's fairgame to consider. Embolden is damage, not utility.

Using those figures on 95th percentile bosses, where Black Mages range from 4200-4700, and Red Mages from 4200-4400, adding 150 of that to their rating puts them on similar levels, to the point where there's no true advantage of the Black Mage unless we move into caster heavy set ups, which don't really have the support that physical do. It's worth noting that going down in percentiles shows the natural gap closing before applying the 'Embolden' tax.

I need to be clear that I'm fine with damage of jobs being comparable all around, with the minimum being within their roles. But in the scenarios where this is the case, each Job should be bringing some form of non-damage/ mitigation utility. Just giving 'more damage' is a lazy and uninteresting way to fix things, because that just shifts around who's useful when.

Ah, so kinda sorta parallel thinking then. But still it's irritating seeing it as an argument piece for people who haven't done the math i.e. the average player/forum poster and don't understand the implications of what they're spouting.

Agreed, there's always accounting for player error, or just points where it may not be possible to get a good use of embolden. Situational scenarios though, the variables scale so much we have to take the average when looking at things, because otherwise you get Warriors and Ravana all over again.

Vercure is fine as is, on the topic of the thread though. In terms of equitable Black Mage utility, another discussion pointed towards Mana Shift as something that inherently is superior for the Black mage to utilize, and that it could be something removed from Role Utility and balanced around a Black Mage providing another person with MP.

That would provide tactical uses, from giving Healers a top off, to giving the Bard more Foe uptime, to feeding other casters so they can push harder (like Summoners and Ruin 3)

Honestly I'd like to see BLM get a small magic damage vuln or a little more than just personal utility (Manawall, AM, BTL) SAM gets a slashing debuff for some reason on top of their own personal buffs. Double caster would be fun, but yeah so much physical damage synergy kinda shoots that one in the foot. I know my own use of Embolden is absolutely not optimal, I like to save it for my burst combo because I'm a terrible person and like my own explosions and sword slashes to be bigger. They definitely could give Mana Shift more to BLM and retool it a bit, I can only sometimes utilize it as RDM and don't even bother equipping it on SMN.

Vercure isn't even useful in a serious environment. In the uber casual content it's pretty great, but that's not what they balance around. In savage, your raid leader probably won't be too happy if you're throwing out vercure's instead of dpsing. Leave healing to the healers in group content.

Personally, i only use it when the tank pulls big and the healer is having trouble getting the tank back to manageable levels, and needs a small buffer between GCDs to get things in order. Or on myself if i just get raised.

Yoshi seems insistent on not touching it anyhow. It's in theme with the job and it's not too powerful, no reason to nerf it.

Let me put it like this, if we HAVE to use vercure/verraise, there is something wrong if its outside of PotD. Inside I will enjoy a RDM's vercure all day but it also seems I go in often with no healers at all.

Vercure is fun. PLD get Clemency. Do not nerf fun.

No it really doesn't. Stop crying for SAM/RDM to be nerfed already.

If there is anything RDM shouldn't have it is Verflare and Verholy. Flare and Holy are supposed to be out of a Red Mage's league, at least based on classic Red Mages.

Then again, so was Life spells...

Not quite, Raise has been a RDM spell in several occasion, they do miss Araise (or life2).
It's true that flare and holy are a bit ehhhhhh however

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Originally Posted by Joe777

If there is anything RDM shouldn't have it is Verflare and Verholy. Flare and Holy are supposed to be out of a Red Mage's league, at least based on classic Red Mages.

Then again, so was Life spells...

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They could always just do VerBlizzard/VerWater in place of Flare/Holy.

You could solo content as a SCH, too.

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Originally Posted by Typhoria

They could always just do VerBlizzard/VerWater in place of Flare/Holy.

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The problem is that those two sound much more similar to the other four elemental spells (Veraero, -thunder, -stone, -fire), while Verholy/flare are meant as powerful finishers to the melee combo that they build their mana towards.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

The problem is that those two sound much more similar to the other four elemental spells (Veraero, -thunder, -stone, -fire), while Verholy/flare are meant as powerful finishers to the melee combo that they build their mana towards.

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True, but if he made the comment about how RDM shouldn't use those abilities. So if its an issue with naming, that could be solved easily. I was under the impression the only reason we could cast Holy/Flare was because our rapier/focus was overloaded with mana and had to have something powerful enough to be able to dump it, hence why we can't spam either ability.

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Originally Posted by Typhoria

They could always just do VerBlizzard/VerWater in place of Flare/Holy.

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I feel that those spells, potentially in the future, would be best served as AoE spells to combo off of scatter.

As for the main topic: Verno.

I find it odd how people can defend RDM in its current state, when it is by far the easiest caster to play. Its rotation is basic, is very mobile, has reasonable dps, and good utility. Its harder to play a BLM well comparative to RDM, and SNM is very punishing if you die.

I strongly feel RMD needs more difficulty added to the job through its mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

I strongly feel RMD needs more difficulty added to the job through its mechanics.

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People like easy things. There really isn't any real good reason to take a BLM into Savage compared to the currently OP and simple RDM, but that's on the developers to change.

And cue the "Let's ignore facts!" parade. Remember when Yoshi P said they're not increasing/decreasing damage based on complexity/simplicity which is a subjective and perceived value? I remember. Pepperidge Farm remembers.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

I find it odd how people can defend RDM in its current state, when it is by far the easiest caster to play. Its rotation is basic, is very mobile, has reasonable dps, and good utility. Its harder to play a BLM well comparative to RDM, and SNM is very punishing if you die.

I strongly feel RMD needs more difficulty added to the job through its mechanics.

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For how it performs in savage content, it's in a pretty okay spot.

To counter you: It may be harder to optimize BLM, but an optimized BLM destroys an optimized RDM any day of the week in terms of damage. In every fight, BLM is competing with SAM and MNK, while RDM kind of drifts between mid to last. This is a trend that remains to higher percentiles as well, mind; the percentiles where it can be safely assumed four people didn't die to reduce the RDM's damage.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

People like easy things. There really isn't any real good reason to take a BLM into Savage compared to the currently OP and simple RDM, but that's on the developers to change.

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There's no reason to take a RDM once prog is done tbh. Once you're done needing the security blanket that healers should have covered by default anyway, BLM is far and away the better choice for farms and speedkills.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

BLM is far and away the better choice for farms and speedkills.

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Nah. You'll still take RDM for Embolden. I wouldn't want a BLM anywhere near a physical heavy comp when Embolden can buff the numbers of the tanks and phys dps higher than if they'd gone with a BLM instead. Gotta get muh 5 stack Emboldened Berserk+IR Fell cleaves. BLM is objectively inferior, IMHO.