Can Summoners Get Some Of These Combat Changes?

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Originally Posted by BubblyBoar

SMN does has a GCD AoE. Tri-bind does 30 pot AoE. Does it suck? Yes! But it has one.

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It's pretty funny how they gave scholar misasma II to improve their aoe dps but not summoner.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

It's pretty funny how they gave scholar misasma II to improve their aoe dps but not summoner.

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In a 1v1 Single-target damage race, with no stacks allowed, SCH would win because Broil II xD. That's not good!

Please give us sustain back. I cant understand why they thought that this skill needs to be gone while tri-bind stayed..I am also not even sure why they did not just delete all three pet skills..why keep something that makes healing the egi better if we dont have a heal for our pets and the healers cant see it on their list. Also 2 out of 3 egis are melee ranged...and even Garuda gets hit by stuff because they react too slow on commands.

Also they managed to give us two unresponsive skills..like Garudas Contagion was not enough, here have Devotion too. It annoys me that its not only a kinda useless skill but that I have to mass click it, in the hope that the egi finally uses it (only to have the target move somewhere else thus another person gets it..) Its kinda sad that the only true new skill next to the lvl 70 one is so bad.

I am also not sure who thought that it would be a good idea that Bahamut (who cant even get hit) will prioritize moving to attacking..Not only is summoner really punishing if you die or lose your stacks, no our major burst is also a clunky summon that runs on a small timer and loves to stop attacking to readjust himself for one pixel..(oh no my summoner sneezed, lets look at her for a second and forget deleting the target with my attack..whoops I have to go..see ya..Me: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO)

Summoner could be the best DD right now and it would still not feel fun to me. But its even not that. They destroyed the 3.0 summoner that might have needed a small nerf (or maybe instead of nerfing, bring the rest of the jobs up) but was otherwise fun to play, to give us Clunkymut and another Ruin.

They take our wishes and make them into a extreme and clunky version (like you know..you could have used the size of the egis in the summoner job quest..would be bigger but not that big, also egis are normally moveable and would not stick to our behind that much) or into something barebone (lets tease egis, promise new egis, get back on that promise..promise us glamour options instead, take way too long to implement a glamour option that is nothing much and still only has carbuncles..)and then feel annoyed that we are not fine with getting such a bad implementation.

Here's my list:

1. Sustain back
2. Devotion - needs to either be AOE or targetable
3. Ruin III needs to replace Ruin I. Seriously, every other job gets upgraded except ANN?
4. Either Bahamut works similar to how PVP works OR change it so stacks do not disappear if a SMN dies.

3. Should have said SMN but phone autocorrect strikes again and can't edit on mobile.

For me i think the best change for the SMN:
-Buff Ruin 3 "150-->200 ''
-Buff Ruin 4 "200-->250 '' new passive reduce CD of Aetherflow to 10 sec'' old passive deleted.
-Buff miasma III 40-->50
-Buff Bio III-->40-->50
-Bahamut wyrmwaves '' auto attack ''
-Return of sustain .
-Rework devotion, 5% for all team .

increase potencies plz, sustain back, and devotion be an aoe field around the pet, having it buff the whole party would be too op.

Complete revamp. No more tiny egi or caster based spells.

Remove Summoner from Arcanist class, and either make it job only or give it a new class Evoker.

Huge list of summons, one and done cast.

They could just make ruin 3 a spammable AoE.

All can say my titan that was level 70 lost to soloing a level 65 monster when I was attacking the other one for story quest. Feels very weak right now and bahamut-egi is a joke just get two attacks and rest time just stands there and looks dumb. new ruin iv is a joke when other jobs get use theres all the time for main attack.

You know one thing I hate alot? I'm going to edit this into the main list on the OP.

I really, really hate it when if you press Enkindle, a 3min cooldown, and your pet either loses target that very second, paralyzed, moved, whatever happens, your pet completely forgets the Enkindle attack and it's just gone. This has happened way too many times to count and it seriously needs to be fixed.

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Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

You know one thing I hate alot? I'm going to edit this into the main list on the OP.

I really, really hate it when if you press Enkindle, a 3min cooldown, and your pet either loses target that very second, paralyzed, moved, whatever happens, your pet completely forgets the Enkindle attack and it's just gone. This has happened way too many times to count and it seriously needs to be fixed.

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I wonder if that is why Bahamut only attacks when you attack, beacuses the devs couldnt figure out how to make enkindle/akh morn more responsive...

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Originally Posted by greenguy

I wonder if that is why Bahamut only attacks when you attack, beacuses the devs couldnt figure out how to make enkindle/akh morn more responsive...

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Actually it's because of how all other pets prioritize auto-attacks over manual-input commands in its ability queue (even SCH runs into this problem). If anything, I think how they've designed Bahamut is really a prototype to not just provide a remedy this issue, but to completely revamp how SMN and SCH control their pets.

Rather than Sustain, I'd like to see them add a trait that changes Physic into a damage spell that drains the enemy's hp and funnels that to your pet. Put it on a 30 second cooldown, make it oGCD so we can weave it between spells, and give it enough healing potency so we can keep our pets up and alive during those huge AoE moments. That would knock out the loss of Sustain and the waste of space that is our current Physic in one blow.

As for Titan's ability to stay alive, I think it would be best if they added the sustain effect to his Earthen Ward. Between that and the above idea, it would probably be enough to keep him mostly alive for solo content at least.

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

Actually it's because of how all other pets prioritize auto-attacks over manual-input commands in its ability queue (even SCH runs into this problem). If anything, I think how they've designed Bahamut is really a prototype to not just provide a remedy this issue, but to completely revamp how SMN and SCH control their pets.

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This. I like this a decent amount(although when you start weaving in oGCDs bahamut lags behind and will miss a wyrm-wave to vomit instead) Garuda should work like this to. Don't see it working for melee pets though.

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Originally Posted by SomeRandomHuman

This. I like this a decent amount(although when you start weaving in oGCDs bahamut lags behind and will miss a wyrm-wave to vomit instead) Garuda should work like this to. Don't see it working for melee pets though.

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If they're going to make it auto-attack they have make his auto-attack 1.5secs like it is now. But yeah that would be so much better.. There's alot of things wrong with Summoner. So many that I don't think we will see any of these fixes until 5.0...

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Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

If they're going to make it auto-attack they have make his auto-attack 1.5secs like it is now. But yeah that would be so much better.. There's alot of things wrong with Summoner. So many that I don't think we will see any of these fixes until 5.0...

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Yeah, its sad, i have the same feeling, that we are stuck with this vers. of SMN until 5.0 like how bards where stuck with cast bars all of 3.0

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

Actually it's because of how all other pets prioritize auto-attacks over manual-input commands in its ability queue (even SCH runs into this problem). If anything, I think how they've designed Bahamut is really a prototype to not just provide a remedy this issue, but to completely revamp how SMN and SCH control their pets.

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But this solves literally nothing? Enkindle bahamut is still unresponsive and even bugs out if u cast it with 2-3 sec. on timer...
The only remedy to unresponsive egis is to delete them.
If somehow SE will be crazy enough to make their autoattack dependable on smn action like bahamut you'll hear no end to summoners cries...

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Originally Posted by TheMazrem

Rather than Sustain, I'd like to see them add a trait that changes Physic into a damage spell that drains the enemy's hp and funnels that to your pet. Put it on a 30 second cooldown, make it oGCD so we can weave it between spells, and give it enough healing potency so we can keep our pets up and alive during those huge AoE moments. That would knock out the loss of Sustain and the waste of space that is our current Physic in one blow.

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This is actually pretty good idea. Dunno about trait and physic but oGCD that will heal\regen\defbuff our pet sounds pretty nice.

Why do people want SUMMONER to be separated from the Arcanist class?! I think you people are seriously missing the point. Arcanist SHOULD "evolve" into Summoner, but Scholar should be separated. Seriously, a healer out of a DPS?!

Remove Scholar from Arcanists list of jobs making it stand-alone or based on a new class, and you can make Arcanist have actual, significant value as a DPS, so that Summoner can just build upon it like it is done for all other DPS classes. As is right now, Arcanist needs to be held back to avoid overpowering the Scholar, a healer, in the DPS aspects, and it hits Summoner in the process.

Summoners need help, yes. Scholars still need help, yes. And both needing help are in part due to them sharing Arcanist as a base class, yes. But seriously, think about what you are asking for...

To be honest, I think DoTs and Aetherflow "stacks" fit a combat strategist theme like SCH's more than they fit a raw primal energy channeler theme like SMN's. Aiding the wounded with Lily while crippling foes with poisons seems exactly like something a medic tactician of Nym would do, IMO. Bobble-head bits of colored aether about the size of an arm and Ruin spam is frankly borderline insulting to the practitioners of an ancient and controversial art once used in the Allagan frickin' Empire.

It doesn't matter. A Scholar is a healer, an Arcanist is a DPS. That alone is absurd combination and I don't know who even though it could work out when they made Arcanist progress into either a Summoner or a Scholar.

There is nothing stopping them from changing the DoT-based Arcanist into whatever sort of pet user, or force user, they want once they separate it from the Summoner. It's still going to be a lot less work than remaking Arcanist to become a healer class. And DPS class should not ever turn into a healer class...period. Not in a game where hybrids are not allowed due to fixed party setups in standard content.

It also doesn't really matter because the goal here is to not simply say "Delete SMN", "Overhaul SMN", "SMN is insulting", because all of that is old stuff and pointless. The goal is to help improve on FFXIV's SMN not some other SMN. So please refrain from saying things like that. Because not only will they never ever overhaul SMN in a patch, there are alot of people, including me who enjoy SMN right now.

Theres really nothing wrong with the way Arcanist can turn into a healer class since it can ALSO turn into a DPS class, so people have a choice to switch to healer or remain dps. it also won't matter after level 30 anyway.

What needs to be fixed is summoner balance.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

Theres really nothing wrong with the way Arcanist can turn into a healer class since it can ALSO turn into a DPS class, so people have a choice to switch to healer or remain dps. it also won't matter after level 30 anyway.

What needs to be fixed is summoner balance.

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Please actually read what is written. We're talking about the possibility of separating the Summoner and Scholar from each other, so there would be NO link. That means an Arcanist would turn ONLY into a healer...And that's what they are proposing here, while I say THAT is ridiculous.

And there is a problem with Arcanist turning into a healer, ESPECIALLY now. This very topic is largely caused by that. If there was no Scholar, Summoners in Stormblood would be far less messed up. That's because Arcanists would be made with only DPS in mind, thus they could be balanced easier. As it is now, you cannot give them too much DPS or Scholar will end up as a DPS class in the healers role. If you give them healers-level of DPS though, then we have Summoner that is a DPS with below-DPS...well...damage. Meaning that to get up to par with others, their Summoner-only skills, of which there is a limited amount, need to be noticeably stronger. But that makes other issues, as these skills would overshadow pre-Summoner skills. Not to mention, there is less space for utility abilities to go around.

Result?! We have a DPS that lacks tools he should have, only because his foundations are shared with a different class role.

Mind you, this is not the only reason for why Summoners have problems. But it IS part of the problem. I'm almost certain that Bane was nerfed so heavily for that very reason, for example. It just can't work when DPS and healers require different tools.

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Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

In a 1v1 Single-target damage race, with no stacks allowed, SCH would win because Broil II xD. That's not good!

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Is this relevant for some reason? You're supposed to use your stacks as a Summoner and unlike a Scholar you'll always want to put your stacks into something that'll boost your damage.

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Originally Posted by Sayora

Is this relevant for some reason? You're supposed to use your stacks as a Summoner and unlike a Scholar you'll always want to put your stacks into something that'll boost your damage.

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It is relevant because very often you have no stacks and no aetherflow ready. Especially if you just blew stacks on AoE. So at that point you're just using Ruin with Bio III + Miasma III. Remember you only get 3 stacks and Fester/Painflare/Energy Drain is only a 5sec cooldown. So there's a 45sec gap.

But the actual point of the comment was to point out how SCH has a spammable Broil III at like 250 potency and SMN only has Ruin, 100 potency and a 15% chance to use Ruin IV which is only 200 potency...

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Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

It is relevant because very often you have no stacks and no aetherflow ready. Especially if you just blew stacks on AoE. So at that point you're just using Ruin with Bio III + Miasma III. Remember you only get 3 stacks and Fester/Painflare/Energy Drain is only a 5sec cooldown. So there's a 45sec gap.

But the actual point of the comment was to point out how SCH has a spammable Broil III at like 250 potency and SMN only has Ruin, 100 potency and a 15% chance to use Ruin IV which is only 200 potency...

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But the dots hit harder, Fester has double the potency of Energy Drain, and you have a pet that's attacking too. Not to mention Tri Disaster buffs Ruin potency by 20 for 15 seconds.

Broil II may have 80 potency over Ruin III and 30 potency over Ruin IV, and that might feel bad, but there are other factors to take into consideration.

1. If you let your pet die you need to be punished, this is how they do that. You have swiftcast on a 1 minute GCD if you do happen to let your pet die so it really isn't that punishing...

2. Not needed and would be OP. We can match most other jobs AoE dps while beating them in single target focus on a target. That is our AoE flavor. If they give us spammable AoE then they need to nerf other parts of our AoE kit because then we are OP again.

3. There are other more pressing issues with gameplay that need to be addressed. DoTs feel hollow with only having 2 and them both being on the same timer. Ruin spam 95% of the time is boring, Ruin IV requiring no interaction from the player is boring, Bahamut was just them be lazy and is ultimately boring. If they want to shift focus to pets that is fine, but make interacting with them engaging. But that would also require them to make pets more responsive....so probably not a good idea for them to go that route since it is still an issue 4 years later.

4. Not needed. Only thing you need sustain for is POTD solo runs. If we get it cool, by no means a priority though. Wasting GCDs on sustain is a dps loss. Manage your pet and if it does die the swiftcast summon.

5. SMN damage isn't the issue. RDM is just better, period. They have too much utility and are too good for progression. RDM utility needs to be hit. Not to mention SMN is punished very heavily for deaths. If they touch anything other than making the gameplay more interesting this is it.

6. Again they just need to fix pet responsiveness in general. Not holding my breath though.

7. Again, not needed. They need to make the class more engaging by fixing other things.

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Originally Posted by Sayora

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I was actually doing some noobie math after I responded to your first response lol.

I made it a 30sec damage test starting with DoTs in Single-target with a 2.5 GCD

Scholar:
+ Miasma(230 potency)
+ Bio II(350 potency)
+ 10 Broil IIs (2,300 potency)
_____________________________
2,880


Summoner:
+ Bio III(400 potency)
+ Miasma III(450 potency)
+ 10 Ruins(1,000 potency)
___________________________
1,850 potency :(

Even with Tri-Disaster ruins would only end up as 1,200 potency. You would have no choice but to use all 3 Festers. If you use just Festers and no Disaster you'll only end up at 2,750 >.<

Of course this only face value math but for a whole 30secs SMNs aren't doing damage. And that's just 30 not 45. But in the end there's no reason why the downtime should be that hard...

EDIT: Also did simple math on DRG Full Thrust combo with Heavy Thrust and 2 combos makes 1,909! Not including auto-attack

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Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

Of course this only face value math but for a whole 30secs SMNs aren't doing damage. And that's just 30 not 45. But in the end there's no reason why the downtime should be that hard...

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Add garuda to this.
Tho I am kinda agree with this. There are times when I don't have stacks, and very little mp for r3 spam... and kinda DPS doesn't rly show it but at this times my contribution to raid damage is pretty meh. Especially if there's adds or dps checks or smthn. Obviously this should be countered with planning etc. but eh. Planning is good and all but with 4.0 smn it's just not fun at all.
Also literally fake summoner dps...

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Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

Of course this only face value math but for a whole 30secs SMNs aren't doing damage. And that's just 30 not 45. But in the end there's no reason why the downtime should be that hard...

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You are also negating most of their kit.

-pet does damage constantly
-you barely ever cast ruin I now. Normal group had BRD or MCH. Between their refresh and your own Lucid Dreaming you have waaaaay too much mana. You spend most of your time casting ruin III now even outside DWT.
-shadowflare (yes I know sch has it also)
-Fester has to be factored in...that is 3 casts during that 30s
-DWT will happen once per minute filling the other "30s window" if you choose to break it down this way.
- 3D if cast correctly gives you more than 25% uptime on ruination buff since DWT resets CD.
-Rouse Enkindle...
-Unlikely to get 0 Ruin IV procs in that time.
-Bahamut twice a minute
-Raid utility and mobility have to be factored in.
-Point is you can't just pull out what skills you want and say oh hey SMN damage is too low. Job has to be looked at as a whole or not at all.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana_Sovari

1. SMN needs to be punished
2. Not needed
4. Not needed.
7. Not needed

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1. Why does Summoner, out of all DPS in the game need to be punished? BRD, SAM, DRG, NIN, BLM, MCH, RDM, none of them get punished like SMN does. Why should MCH be able to have unlimited turrets but SMN loses 2,400MP and Swiftcast to summon eh? Why should Summoner have to punish itself even more using 3 Energy Drains just to have enough MP to Summon then use Energy Drain just to fight? No it's not fine. Don't say "It's fine because don't die in raids", it's simply bad.

2, 4, 7. Based off of the FFLogs link I got from a different forum, SMN is the 2nd worst DPS only above MCH which is a broken job.
https://www.fflogs.com/rankings/17#b...&spec=Summoner

So it's absolutely needed. Not sure what you're talking about but I didn't see your name as #1 SMN and #1 still kept it 2nd worst :p

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Originally Posted by Viridiana_Sovari

cut stuff out in math

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I clearly said it was face value math. The point was that after Dreadwrym you have 30secs to not do damage and a SCHs Broil II + DoTs still manage to be stronger than a SMNs basic attacks but it's a DPS.

Also, not everything is a raid. Sheesh. Most groups won't have Refreshes and Mana Shifts going out

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Originally Posted by Viridiana_Sovari

1. If you let your pet die you need to be punished, this is how they do that. You have swiftcast on a 1 minute GCD if you do happen to let your pet die so it really isn't that punishing...

4. Not needed. Only thing you need sustain for is POTD solo runs. If we get it cool, by no means a priority though. Wasting GCDs on sustain is a dps loss. Manage your pet and if it does die the swiftcast summon.

5. SMN damage isn't the issue. RDM is just better, period. They have too much utility and are too good for progression. RDM utility needs to be hit. Not to mention SMN is punished very heavily for deaths. If they touch anything other than making the gameplay more interesting this is it.

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1: If I had pets that would react the exact same second when I give them a command then yes, them dieing would be a bit of my fault. But they react horribly and if you are in a fight with lots of AOEs thus lots of movements you will probably lose your pet. Also melee pets like Ifrit and Titan are in a way higher danger to get sudden cleaves too. You are also forgetting the cost of MP to resummoning the pet again, which is like 20-25% of our MP? That is quite a lot. And you cant summon Bahamut if the pet is death. I already had it that the pet dies in the exact moment that Bahamut was summoned thus he did not appear. Thats quite the DPS loss too..

4: And even if people only use it in Palace of the death it still had a use unlike that horrible Tri-bind or that healing skill. If they wanted to decrease the amount of skills we had, they could have taken away that tri-bind attack and made it so that the healing skill has a higher outcome if we heal our pet with it. That would be two buttons less and one kinda useless one could have been turned into something useful. Instead they kept the useless one and took a useful one away..even if you only used it in certain situation. Without this things like the palace have become near impossible, the same with solo tanking stuff. (Also without sustain Titan is completely useless too, because he dies too fast, thus aggro resets when you resummon him..so they killed one of our pets too with that change)

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Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

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You are looking at 1 fight...

https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17...gregate=amount

That shows all savage fights played at 95th percentile.

They are within 20 dps on average with rdm who are also low. Yet rdm is the most prominent in groups work O4S down. Also because rdm utility is so good, most of your highly skilled casters are playing RDM. This is the main reason I myself switched this tier and scews this data in RDMs favor. You won't get BLM level damage because they are the SAM if casters. No utility only dps. Think before you blindly look at numbers.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

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so basically you want SMN to do more damage than SAM, have almost no dps loss due to movement, have the best AoE dps in the game, and better utility than everyone but maybe rdm? The meta would be bring 4 SMN with these changes...

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Originally Posted by Viridiana_Sovari

snip.

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Well... Looks like you don't know nothing about smn.
If you ever ever know the rotation, you'd know that you are delaying your contagion over, over and over again. How kind of the "utiliy" is that? That's not even that good for compos with 2 casters.
And about sustain. Well if you ever did A8s (probably not) you'd know that you HAD to use it everyintermission, because Garuda's life were around 20%. I don't know you but rather use an ability to heal my pet by 400 mp instead of summoning him again wasting 3 gcds/ 2400 mana.
So if we have movement? You just said before we now pass the most of time spamming ruin 3.
The "movement" and the "utility" we have is not worth by RDMs doing 300 dps more than us and BLMs 500.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana_Sovari

You are looking at 1 fight...

https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17...gregate=amount

That shows all savage fights played at 95th percentile.

They are within 20 dps on average with rdm who are also low. Yet rdm is the most prominent in groups work O4S down. Also because rdm utility is so good, most of your highly skilled casters are playing RDM. This is the main reason I myself switched this tier and scews this data in RDMs favor. You won't get BLM level damage because they are the SAM if casters. No utility only dps. Think before you blindly look at numbers.

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You look at a very specific number that has SMN at a higher place. Put it on Max Percentile and it's just as I said. SMN is second to last. Also, you switched to RDM because it's better than SMN obviously. More damage and utility. :rolleyes: Nice! If most of the skilled casters are playing RDM as you say, maybe there's a problem?

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Originally Posted by Viridiana_Sovari

so basically you want SMN to do more damage than SAM, have almost no dps loss due to movement, have the best AoE dps in the game, and better utility than everyone but maybe rdm? The meta would be bring 4 SMN with these changes...

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Sorry but there is no way those changes I suggested could close a 700+ dps gap, no even close. At the very best it would push it right behind RDM.

Seriously though, do you use RDM or SMN in Savage. I mean I know the answer but since you think SMN is in such good shape and all......

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Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

You look at a very specific number that has SMN at a higher place. Put it on Max Percentile and it's just as I said. SMN is second to last. Also, you switched to RDM because it's better than SMN obviously. More damage and utility. :rolleyes: Nice! If most of the skilled casters are playing RDM as you say, maybe there's a problem?

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95th percentile is what I use because it is the best to judge actually judge where classes sit. And I for 2 reasons. 1 SMN is boring as hell to play after the changes, which has nothing to do with their dps. 2, RDM utility is OP as hell for progression. With a RDM you can literally raise 4 times in a row with no issues and no long cast times, esp if you have a BRD or MCH in the group. It it OP for prog only based on that one thing because you get more exposure to a fight during prob out of every pull, decreasing your pull count for kills. I would have thought long and hard between BLM and SMN. If RDM utility doesn't change they will either be nerfed to where they aren't viable or they will always be the choice for prog. Plain and simple. That is not a SMN issue, it is a RDM issue. SMN could do several hundred dps more and I would still bring RDM over SMN.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Sorry but there is no way those changes I suggested could close a 700+ dps gap, no even close. At the very best it would push it right behind RDM.

Seriously though, do you use RDM or SMN in Savage. I mean I know the answer but since you think SMN is in such good shape and all......

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Are you kidding me, they do roughly the same dps as rdm on average right now.... You want add another DoT that does a bit less than the other 2 over the fight, buff Shadow Flare by 50%, make ruin III even more spammable though ruin I, II, III, and DWT changes while buffing it by 33%, buff ruin IV by 25%, take any mana loss from movement away again making Ruin III more spammable, buff pet damage by 40%, both lengthen DWT and make it more frequent through shortened Aetherflow, buff Bahamut's damage through procs, buff the his enkindle by making it cast once at slightly more potency than 2 do at the moment...

Oh and make Devotion better than most buffs in the game when we still have party buffs from Ifrit and Garuda, and Res ability, while giving us a raid wide crit buff too? Do some math please. You are 15% or less behind SAM dps depending on the fight. These changes obviously add up to more than that.