MCH changes, pls test your stuff beforehand SE

My post has my opinions on the matter and what I found out about the rotation. I really enjoyed the complexity of the rotation, but the job really is low utility and damage in comparison to any other job. 8% wasn't as good enough of a damage buff, and if they want Overheat to be obvious as an actual beneficial buff, it needs to be way more than just 10%. I did the math for overheat in my post here, and you only get a 3-5% overall damage increase, and that's only if you perform the rotation almost perfectly.

New edit: I was able to push dps to 3650 dps in last O1s with no materia equiped but my argument remains still the same. others do the same or more and have utlity. Very little reason to bring a mch over other classes

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Originally Posted by chs724

New edit: I was able to push dps to 3650 dps in last O1s with no materia equipped but my argument remains still the same. others do the same or more and have utlity. Very little reason to bring a mch over other classes

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You wouldn't mind posting a clip of those logs would ya? I can't even remember what I hit when we did O1s days ago but 3650 is actually not bad.

3650 with what? A NIN and a DRG in the party?? Last night I got 3515 in V2S WITH materia and a 99.29% uptime.

Our comp is MNK, RDM, SAM, MCH, AST, WHM, WAR, PLD

So the ONLY thing I get is SCH crit buff on my number above.

When I cleared O1S cleared I had 3,680 after 1 death. Comp was PLD, DRK, WHM, WHM, SAM, DRG, BLM, MCH. One run when we hit enrage I was at 3825DPS with 99,96% active.

But I'm i319 with full DH melds. Have beaten A4S SSS dummy with 1 sec left with 3881DPS while using Potion.

In expert roulette I kept stealing agro from a ilvl310 geared DRK lol. I must be doing something right! :cool:

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Originally Posted by chs724

New edit: I was able to push dps to 3650 dps in last O1s with no materia equiped but my argument remains still the same. others do the same or more and have utlity. Very little reason to bring a mch over other classes

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SAM does even more damage than that with no utility. . . so why bring them either?

Hit my daily limit, but to answer you, no, it's not a troll post. It is however a challenge to that line of thinking. Not the first time I've challenged it and won't be the last. People are quick to contest BRD/MCH damage not being far apart with the utility argument, so that's why I point out a more damaging job with less utility. I could also point out RDM which also deals more damage and has both better and more consistent utility, but people WANT to just roll over on the idea that MCH is so unviable, even while saying that any job can clear Savage right now.

Like, what do people even want at this point?

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

SAM does even more damage than that with no utility. . . so why bring them either?

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i will take your post as a troll post. nevertheless i will give you an answer. samurai was seen as a dmg focused non supportive job by SE so he got the huge dmg to counterbalance the fact he got nothing for the gorup. Thats why he deals 4500 dps with ease while most other classes strugle to pass 4000. mch was supposed to be a supportive job, just as brd is right now but clearly fails to do so.

and now the funny thing is that every class can outperform a mch by dmg and/or utility if we presume equal skill lvl. it does not matter to much atm as any class can clear o1s to 04s (even though you dont do your group a favour) but honnestly maybe it will matter more in further content as difficulty proceeds and super savage in the pipeline.

would you like to push a car with no fuel when you could have easly filled the tank at the last stop? i dont think so...

I stated MCH in HW because I liked the playstyle. I'm now asking myself if I wish to continue playing MCH. After reading a couple of discutions it seems players as a colective don't seem to be able do choose between support and DPS. Im not suprised that SE have had to do something. In a party of good players there is no need for me to Resource support and I now lack the means to assist with DPS as I have done before.

All in all I'm not sure that the problem, was it not being tested. What I think is the problem is, is that the DEV's and the players just arnt seeing MCH in the same light.
MCH is looking cooler then I have ever seen it though and gives the impresion that it packs a punch. It's only a shame that it isn't the case.
I feel that MCH has lost its identity, as the support you offer no longer differs from bard.
The class feels more like an asthetic choise, wich is a shame.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

SAM does even more damage than that with no utility. . . so why bring them either?

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I understand that somehow all this "complaining" has got you upset, but burying your head in the sand and telling everyone to shut up and that they are silly isn't going to make the problem go away. Either you enjoy trolling, or the attention this drama brings is really giving you the giggles, either way fine ill bite. SAM does superb damage, it has its spot well defined. While it is true, damage is not "god," a SAMs place is assured because of its "god like" damage. There is a difference when MCH brings no such damage, and does not bring the utility to compensate for it.

The rest of the FotM MCHs have already jumped ship to bard, as it would seem you may or may not approve of this. The MCHs remaining to give their two cents are in hopes that one day down the road, like BRD, our comments are heard and things will change for the better. If for some reason your goal is to become one of the few MCHs in existence then I'm sorry, discouraging forum MCHs from speaking wont help you accomplish that goal. There are quite a few new players checking it own now thanks to the changes, many of whom probably could care less about these forums. I digress, I figure you are an intelligent enough person that all of this behavior is intentional to your particular desires. I also figure that you know there are plenty of non english speaking MCHs out there speaking about it on the other forums (google translate would reveal as much.) So silencing the few on this forum will do very little in the overall scheme of things. I just felt a need to acknowledge your flippant attitude and disregard to other peoples opinions whom you deem inferior. I took your bait and this is my response. I wont bother again. Thank you.

I'm in the minority here, but I really like how MCH plays atm. :/ I agree that it could still do with a dmg increase, but MCH at 4.0 was so punishing if you messed up, and the way overheating every other wildfire worked was awkward and annoying. It's so much more fun to play now. IMO! So many people are saying the job is terrible that I feel compelled to share my differing opinion.

On my first O3S clear I had 3621 dps with no DRG. I died once and also totally messed up my rotation in the last half because I was trying not to mess up mechanics (I'm bad). We managed to clear the first three floors of Omega in 9-10 hours fine without a BRD. People are overreacting. MCH isn't perfect, but it's nowhere near as terrible as people are going on about. I love the MCH class and refuse to switch to a job I hate playing for an extra 100 dps or a few more utility skills that aren't even necessary. (`-´ )

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Originally Posted by mero-ix

*snip*

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A few things. Mind you it's fine to share your opinion. But let's not start calling people wrong.
Overheating every other wildfire kept our wildfire mildfire dynamic from heavensward. The reason it was so punishing was because the reward was so low. Upping the reward for doing right would have balanced out the punishment for doing sour.
Good on you for pulling 3621 after dying somehow. The average player isn't going to perform at the level of an +85th% machinist.

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MCH isn't perfect, but it's nowhere near as terrible as people are going on about.

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You've seem to have missed the point of the thread. Nobody is saying it's impossible to do at least the first 2 tiers adequately with a MCH. People are saying that you can do better with the same level of proficiency in BRD (while also avoiding woes of party finder exclusion). People then post numbers to prove their statements and many facts as to why that is true. The only thing people are arguing with is this same math for some reason. Which is as smart as punching a cinderblock.

Lastly

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a few more utility skills that aren't even necessary.

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Do you know why soldiers are trained to aim for center mass and not the head? Those utility skills you make fun of are of the same mind. I know many times a dismantle I've used or a passage of arms the tank used ended up saving us from dying outright to AoE. These are things you use to assure a victory and ease the burden of progression. I'm pretty sure the near double rDPS increase Bard provides would have helped us clear O2S in our second attempt when we reached enrage.

I'm sure if you play flawlessly you could beat O4S as well. As long as you are having fun that's what matters the most. But for the sake of actually giving feedback that leads to lasting changes don't say "MCH is fine" when it's not. It underperforms in every way that matters.

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Originally Posted by mero-ix

snip

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I think people are getting confused here . Fun is subjective, if you are having fun, then awesome, keep having fun. Im having fun too! Despite my protests about he Job I am still playing the job. The thread is not about the subject of "Fun" it is about how MCH is the lowest performing job in all categories other than "fun." We kind of want to have our fun and our performance as well. IF you don't want extra utility, then fine, be the voice that pushes for a higher damage focus. However pretending that everything is fine is not going to get any good and lasting changes sooner, quite the opposite. So please regardless of how you feel it should be improved, let us just agree that it needs to be improved and not try to turn away suggestions that may bring some added satisfaction to the job.

All I'm hearing are people complaining about it, saying it's terrible, unplayable, no one should take a MCH, etc. My point is to say it's not as bad as people are making it out to be, and to not completely avoid MCHs. I never said it doesn't need any changes. But it's not going to get any changes right away and in its current state it is "ok". It's a lot easier/more forgiving to play now and that's a good thing. I never meant to come across as saying that it doesn't need more utility or dps (I said that it did in my first post). I just felt the need to let people know that it's still a good job, it's just at the bottom atm and needs a little more love. Denying people who play MCH to be included in content is unnecessary and overly dramatic.

There are more than enough posts about all the things that are wrong about MCH. I don't need to add to it.

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Originally Posted by mero-ix

and in its current state it is "ok"

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Except it's not. It's weaker in every aspect than every job. What you want to say is it's "functional" or "doable".
"Okay" would imply it doesn't provide the least rDPS and have the lowest personal damage with the worse defensive cooldowns. That's simply not true. That's the problem with words. Ever use a thesaurus? In anybodies diction "okay" is synonymous with "fine". Would you say that MCH are fine? Of course you wouldn't:

• Their damage is the lowest
• Their rDPS increases are laughable
• Their mitigation is subpar
• Their aoe leaves a lot to be desired.
• Their multitarget doesn't exist from lack of a dot.

These are facts supportable with numbers and have been supported with numbers in other threads.

• The systems work against each other (namely overheating is BARELY a dps increase when performed properly and a DPS loss in all other situations)
• Flamethrower is mediocre for anything other than managing a hit
• Their burst is now exclusively tied to 2 120 second cooldowns (in comparison to old hw wildfire burst)
• Blowing up your turret will on average do more than a tricked out wildfire
• The lack of needing to actually manage heat now is directly contrary to Yoshi-P's own words on the job focus.

These are facts.
Is it easier to play now? Yes
Is it more fun? Arguable

An opinion would be:

• Flamethrower is lackluster/ Flamethrower is great
• Using Cooldown feels/felt bad
• Merging dismantle/rend mind together and lower the duration was a good thing
• I like/hate that the dot is gone
• I enjoy/hate 4.05 MCH

See the difference? Things that run contrary to math but have absolutely nothing to do when balancing the job.

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It's a lot easier/more forgiving to play now and that's a good thing.

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A lot of people seem to think easier is synonymous with better. It's not. If a job is difficult, that should be balanced with a higher reward for execution. It's always been that way. That way the punishment for mistakes are mitigated by the reward for success.

Think of melee/BLM uptime: You have a clear average DPS that the developers set in mind
But the closer you go to maximizing your uptime the exponentially higher your damage becomes. That's a good thing. The skill floor and skill ceiling should never be catered to. Else everybody would be doing significantly less because they don't perform at the level of the 0.01% players of their respective jobs OR doing way too damn much because they perform way higher than the 25th percentile or w/e. There is an average set and that average includes "mess up" insurance.

On the other hand, No risk for large reward is a bad thing. Thankfully we now have low risk for low reward. So I guess in that aspect the job is balanced.
The only opinion that anybody can bring is the fun quotient. Which itself has no place in a thread when talking about hard problems the job suffers from.

And to go on a tangent BLM currently suffers from that very same reason. And I'd argue that they have it even harder than MCH/BRD

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My point is to say it's not as bad as people are making it out to be, and to not completely avoid MCHs

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Nobody in this thread says that you can't do content with a MCH. Nobody in this thread said to avoid MCH. There was a party finder thread where MCH were being excluded sure, but most of that were people saying that anybody excludes a MCH wouldn't be that good to begin with. And yes that certainly is true. But in regards to running it with your FC? I'm progressing my static right now. In my static my party is just fine with whatever we decide to take. We'll be at or past V3 when we finally meet again this time tomorrow (given that we've only met twice for a total of 5 hours). I'm sure it'll go fine. But I know it would be better if we took a BRD. This isn't an opinion. It's flat math. So don't get upset when you see crap like this
http://i.imgur.com/xENKJLS.png

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Denying people who play MCH to be included in content is unnecessary and overly dramatic.

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It's not overly dramatic. It's about ensuring you have every edge necessary. Players ARE not all going to be pro level. And many people perform at the level where they need every benefit possible to clear. You certainly don't need defensive raidwide cooldowns but they sure as hell help. Only a lunatic would state otherwise. And on that matter let's talk about this

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a few more utility skills that aren't even necessary.

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Overheating isn't "necessary"
Go clear the V4S dummy right now in your current gear without doing either that or snapshotting your turret overload. Tell me how your results go. That timing is tight as hell. And I hope that emphasizes the point that these margins are often the difference between victory and defeat. They allow mistakes and help you if you're Average mcAverageson. Mistakes remember? That thing that everybody does every now and again. To argue against any of this is like saying "Gordias was a good raid."

The bottom line is this:
Would you walk to the store, or bike to the store? You'd make it to the same destination but the time it takes to get there would differ wildly. One is very clearly better suited to that task then the other. Though the end goal is the same.

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Originally Posted by mero-ix

All I'm hearing are people complaining about it, saying it's terrible, unplayable, no one should take a MCH, etc. My point is to say it's not as bad as people are making it out to be, and to not completely avoid MCHs. I never said it doesn't need any changes. But it's not going to get any changes right away and in its current state it is "ok". It's a lot easier/more forgiving to play now and that's a good thing. I never meant to come across as saying that it doesn't need more utility or dps (I said that it did in my first post). I just felt the need to let people know that it's still a good job, it's just at the bottom atm and needs a little more love. Denying people who play MCH to be included in content is unnecessary and overly dramatic.

There are more than enough posts about all the things that are wrong about MCH. I don't need to add to it.

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Good statement, and you ARE right, but save your words. If you're not pitching a fit or tearing down the job or glorifying BRD, that's not what people want to hear right now.

as much as I actually miss 3.0 MCH (yes I liked that version, cast bar and all) 4.05 MCH is less stressfull with the heat from heated-shots lowered. Granted I do see the "its dmg is crap" part as I crit my heated shots more than I can hit 9K with wildfire (& crit'd shots do around that dmg, ilv286 btw), Flamethower seams meh to me & I peronally hate "Turret Overload" so only use it for planned/known boss-untargetable parts only since it de-summons it... if it didn't & just haved the turrets dmg the skill would have to go back to 4.01 potency for "Balance". As for "Overheat" it just seams worthless, small dmg boost for a short time then a dmg de-buff for same time, so I make it a point to never let that happen (Not even for wildfire... which its change from 3.0 seams ok, even if that was 3.0's only real mechanic).

So personal opinion 4.05 MCH is more fun (IE: less stressful)... but I don't like the heated-shot animations or the loss of "Burst Caster MCH", I'll gear/use it regardless but those 2 points will haunt me every time I do (which sucks but maybe 1 point won't bug me later.. the loss of 3.0 ver.)

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

tearing down the job or glorifying BRD

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That's not it at all. Feel free to make a MCH appreciation thread and I'll happy talk about all the strengths. However, you should feel ashamed of yourself by ridiculing Ephier who is a far better MCH than both you and myself. Saying one of the top 100 MCH who helped contribute to the rotation everybody uses for optimal damage is wrong is like saying the earth is flat. I didn't want to mention that in the other thread because the point of it was letting MCH know that being a MCH isn't a dead end. And it's not.

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Originally Posted by The_NPC

as much as I actually miss 3.0 MCH (yes I liked that version, cast bar and all) 4.05 MCH is less stressfull with the heat from heated-shots lowered. Granted I do see the "its dmg is crap" part as I crit my heated shots more than I can hit 9K with wildfire (& crit'd shots do around that dmg, ilv286 btw), Flamethower seams meh to me & I peronally hate "Turret Overload" so only use it for planned/known boss-untargetable parts only since it de-summons it... if it didn't & just haved the turrets dmg the skill would have to go back to 4.01 potency for "Balance". As for "Overheat" it just seams worthless, small dmg boost for a short time then a dmg de-buff for same time, so I make it a point to never let that happen (Not even for wildfire... which its change from 3.0 seams ok, even if that was 3.0's only real mechanic).

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I did like 3.0 MCH but from what I hear you can find a (admittedly dumbed down version) of that in RDM. So there's that I guess. But RDM doesn't have a gun so....
This does remind me of 3.0 MCH and how that relates to now. Just like then, there are people who argue against flat math for whatever reason. Though the biggest difference is that this raid tier is nowhere close to how soul crushingly difficult gordias was.

Overheat is worthless, however. But it's still a DPS increase, even if it's a small one, so you might as well grit your teeth and push through dealing with it. That said, you're not missing much if you just ignore it altogether unless you're pushing some difficult content and need that small kick in the rear. Wildfire is going to be the thing you miss the most. Our freshly buff turret overdrive can and will hit as hard or harder than it. Neveryoumind the hellishly high damage it can produce if it direct crits. The days of optimizing for extremely large wildfires are long past.

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Originally Posted by Elnidfse

That's not it at all. Feel free to make a MCH appreciation thread and I'll happy talk about all the strengths. However, you should feel ashamed of yourself by ridiculing Ephier who is a far better MCH than both you and myself. Saying one of the top 100 MCH who helped contribute to the rotation everybody uses for optimal damage is wrong is like saying the earth is flat. I didn't want to mention that in the other thread because the point of it was letting MCH know that being a MCH isn't a dead end. And it's not.

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I've ridiculed no one. I mentioned no one specifically in what I said above, so don't make assumptions. When there were corrections to be made, Ephier updated their thread. Whether it supports any narrative you may have or not is not my problem. And what you quoted above had nothing to do with that thread at all.

P.S. there was a thread that actually had some legitimately positive things to say about the job, and to no real surprise someone (and yes, I AM calling someone out in THIS statement) comes along and starts doing exactly what I said.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

comes along and starts doing exactly what I said.

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Tut tut. Some people are debbie downers. I prefer to have my cons supported with some good ol fashioned math. And I would think facts are everyone's problem. And of course I'm not going to quote directly out of that thread! It belongs in that thread. Alongside such irrational statements like "mch are not support" or some other lunacy. People who say "you can't clear with MCH" have much bigger issues. Like how to git gud.

Or I hope at the very least. I'll let you know how V4S goes.

And maybe I am a debbie downer myself focusing on the bad and all, and I'd love to fix that. But the only way to keep an issue alive is to talk about it, right? Posters like fannah have an extremely cheerful disposition so I'd like for their to be at least one thread where people aren't just being negative nancies. So feel free to make that.

But I see things like on the other forums where somebody says essentially:

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MCH is not fine
The population is not low because it is strong or not strong.
It is because MCH is not fun

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Or something like that

And while I disagree I can't help but wonder why people think like that. So for the sake of all MCH we should continue to give constructive criticism no matter what. You've seen Shawshank redemption right? You know the part where Andy writes a letter to the government for 6 years and eventually gets the funding? This is that.

Then we're actually in agreement in that regard. We have been all along.

I have nothing against the job's deficiencies being supported with viable proof. That is what needs to be spoken clearly so we can maybe get them fixed. I have everything against one dimensional statements that otherwise tear it down and offer nothing beyond that, especially when it would demoralize and push people who might otherwise perform just fine as a MCH to feel forced to change, lest they be left out. That is all I've held issue with from the start.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

I have everything against one dimensional statements that otherwise tear it down and offer nothing beyond that, especially when it would demoralize and push people who might otherwise perform just fine as a MCH to feel forced to change, lest they be left out.

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You've put what I've been trying to say into words much better. Thank you.

Elnidfse: You are trying way too hard to argue with me (we aren't even in disagreement). You took a single word I used ("ok", quotations for a reason) out of context to write an excessively redundant reply. You're just being self-indulgent at this point and coming off incredibly condescending. You've already said more than enough on how you feel about the job. You don't have to beat people to death who feel otherwise. And for what it's worth, I never said the words "MCH is fine"; you did. I was responding to that when I replied and didn't mean it literally, hence—again—my use of quotations. Context matters. Stop picking apart people's replies to suit your own argument.

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Originally Posted by Elnidfse

don't say "MCH is fine" when it's not

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You also said:

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Originally Posted by Elnidfse

But let's not start calling people wrong.

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I didn't call anyone wrong. All I ever did was say how I personally felt about the job. No matter how many novels you write at me, it's not going to change my opinion.

(PS: I checked a video of our O3S clear and my dps was at 3842 before I died when the boss was at 18%. That's including me being an idiot and forgetting to place my turret for a minute after I blew it up in my opener. I also don't bother to overheat my wildfires. I see overheating as a punishment, like dropping botd, but that it can also be used to our advantage if used correctly/very specifically. I've seen bard parses from that turn between 3700-3800 so dps seems to be on par with mch (of similarly skilled players during progression). It'll be easier to see the discrepancies after players have been clearing for a few weeks.)

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Originally Posted by mero-ix

*snip snippity*

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I'm not trying hard to do x or y. boss. Somebody said "MCH are okay" and I figured "well let me interject". I don't intend to change your opinion and I certainly don't care about whatever self image you think matters to me. I mentioned several times that the job is completely functional. But for some reason people come into this thread and say things like "people think/say the job is unplayable" when nobody has been saying that :P

But I heard "So many people are saying the job is terrible that I feel compelled to share my differing opinion." I used your opinion as a grounds to expand and move forward and stated why people think the job is terrible because I wanted to talk about it some more... I'll avoid quoting you in the future so I don't come off as condescending again. And I'll have you know I actually enjoy writing posts with very simple elementary level of formatting. The logic here is if SE reads any one post, it would be better to put as much effort into any of them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Elnidfse

But for some reason people come into this thread and say things like "people think/say the job is unplayable" when nobody has been saying that :P

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Not in this thread specifically, but people are definitely saying it on reddit, in discord servers, in game chat, and discluding mch from PF. I have people asking me a lot what I think of mch because they've only heard bad things about it. My intent on commenting on this thread was to share the things that I like and add something positive to the wave of negativity. I in no way meant to disregard the issues it has. I thought it would be helpful to show players that a group can still clear O3S first week with a MCH. (and I'm not even the best mch; I'm hella derpy.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mero-ix

I'm in the minority here, but I really like how MCH plays atm. :/ I agree that it could still do with a dmg increase, but MCH at 4.0 was so punishing if you messed up, and the way overheating every other wildfire worked was awkward and annoying. It's so much more fun to play now. IMO! So many people are saying the job is terrible that I feel compelled to share my differing opinion.

On my first O3S clear I had 3621 dps with no DRG. I died once and also totally messed up my rotation in the last half because I was trying not to mess up mechanics (I'm bad). We managed to clear the first three floors of Omega in 9-10 hours fine without a BRD. People are overreacting. MCH isn't perfect, but it's nowhere near as terrible as people are going on about. I love the MCH class and refuse to switch to a job I hate playing for an extra 100 dps or a few more utility skills that aren't even necessary. (`-´ )

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no one said its a terrible job. i already said a couple of post before its not the biggest issue atm as every class can clear o1s-o4s but it will matter the harder content gets (o6s-o8s, super savage etc). we are all here for the love of the job right? all we want is a balanced class. no one who loves his class want him to be overpowered as he will expirience a nerf neither do we want him to be suboptimal. currently MCH does not have a clear spot in a raid we can all agree upon. he is no fish nor meat how we say in german. being the second best joice in everything isnt really satisfying especially when its your mainclass you spend all your time on

Lets bring logic in.

Okay we have two official support ranged DPS jobs. Machinist and Bard.

They both play differently but their overall role is the same. Provide damage while using support abilities to help the overall party.

The trade off is while we get the best mobility and support functions, we don't provide the amount of DPS that a full dedicated DPS does. Which is completely fine, very understandable.

Now here is the kicker. Without counting role abilities, Bard has a gross amount of support utility compared to a Machinist. Which can be fine in concept and lore. Here is the problem. If a Machinist does less support utility than a Bard, then shouldn't the natural trade off be that Machinists do more DPS than a Bard? Not according to Square-Enix. The amount of utility a MCH has pales in comparison to BRD and our DPS is severely lower than one. We are not asking for to power us up to the level of a dedicated DPS. The main issue is within our given role it is severely unbalanced. SE needs to work out both damage and support utility between BRD and MCH because right now, BRD is dominating by a huge margin. And I don't mean a slight percentage wise, I mean just such a horrid balance that I cannot understand how in the world SE did not catch this horrid imbalance of both support and damage.

To top it off, we still have no idea if the overheat system was designed to be a punishment or intended to be a form of extra damage. Developers sure have not said anything and the numbers show it is barely worth using. Our recent changes raise the question even more. It is messy also, I can almost never properly line my heat gauge with Wildfire. At least putting in 3-4 shots while Wildfire is ready to use. It is a DPS loss there, on top of dealing with the overheat that to me feels useless unless a phase change is about to happen.

Machinist isn't just gimp, it is essentially a broken job that no one understands. It is still my main because I still have the most fun with it and understand it much better than other jobs, but I won't lie and say this is fine. It is the exact opposite.

Change has to happen and fast. This is not a "lets wait and see what happens in Savage" and update it in 4.1 type of thing. This is create a solution now and put it in a hotfix or a small patch ASAP.

Two ideas:

If Overheat is meant to be a mechanic to increase DPS and not a punishment: It needs to be 20% at minimal. Hot Shot at 10%. Also for it to help properly line up we have to go back to 10 heat per shot. Maybe instead of changing how the entire mechanic works, you just make better signs of you being near overheat. The biggest issue with beginner MCH was they were not paying attention to their heat gauge. Maybe make an animation to the UI that helps get the player's attention that they need to use Cooldown soon or ready to overheat. Keep Barrel Stabalizer at 60sec, this alone was a nice solution for beginner mistakes.

If Overheat is meant to be a punishment: Simply make Hot Shot at 10%, increase the potency of attacks across the board.

As for turret explosions. Make it so we can summon our turret back instantly but the ability to have them self destruct again on a timer. Right now it is near pointless to use this unless phase changing or knocking the last percentage out on a boss. I won't ever use it beyond particular situations. Thinking that simply the DPS potency was the issue of it was silly on your end. It is a DPS loss not having that turret around for how long it is gone.

While I have not given ideas for more support functionality, I understand the developers can't just make moves like that and not have it take a long time. So I am fine with the aspect of having MCH be the less utility but more DPS form of the role while BRD becomes the more support but less DPS than MCH. This is how it should be. Right now BRD has everything on their side and nothing on MCH side.

SE like I said, this needs an immediate fix if you don't want the MCH population dipping lower than it currently is. Even I contemplate switching to BRD sometimes just so I can feel more useful.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

*snip

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There were really two routes we could have gone given the previous pre4.05 situation. The job was hard (almost too hard for new comers and some veterans) so we had:
High Effort for low reward
That's a problem. There's two ways to fix that:
1) Go high effort / high reward as was their design philosophy for Samurai. With this. Even if mistakes happen they are balanced by high damage. And even novice MCH can play suboptimally to get okay returns with gains peaking the better they get
or
2) Go low Effort / low Reward This keeps status quo. It also makes the job easier to play for novice MCH by allowing them to play at a relatively higher level, raising their DPS.
It's obvious which one we have now. Mind you it still very much is a (relatively) demanding job in order to squeeze out your last few hundred which requires clipping and lag to be so far practiced out of your rotation that they could happen even if you fumble.

But your point about:

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a [...]job that no one understands

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Because most people who don't run math or have the patience to do SSS for hours have any clue if OH was a gain or not. Hell lots of early SB MCH didn't know Overdrive - > Overload didn't increase our wildfire damage.

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If Overheat is meant to be a mechanic to increase DPS and not a punishment: It needs to be 20% at minimal. Hot Shot at 10%.

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Overheat needs to be reworked altogether. If a little bit of lag can turn a gain into a loss it's simply not worth it. And the reward for maintaining sweetspot heat is neither high nor that rewarding. You basically fight against your bar (admittedly you don't have to care about it at all now) to get relatively low DPS. Is 20% on that and 10% on hotshot enough? I don't know. I'm not even sure if 20% would compensate for a single GCD mispress. Because I don't think it would but I might be wrong. I think Overheat in general needs to be tuned way the heck up or given special interaction with wildfire so that you still would only overheat when WF is up. I'm pretty sure overheating doesn't compensate for the loss of Blood 4 Blood + Raging Strikes + Hawk's Eye.
My wildfires on average hit for less than half of my wildfires in Heavensward and that's not okay

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If Overheat is meant to be a punishment: Simply make Hot Shot at 10%

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This would be fine too but I wouldn't get why overheat would exist with any sort of positive at all if it's meant to be a negative. And I'd love to say "it can be used for burst" but it requires such a slow buildup to get there, twice as long now. God forbid you use flamethrower and just throw your potency away. Not to mention the potential 5 seconds you'd have to be spending burning anyways. And would a 2% boost to hotshot really even help us?

Also: On Overheat
The heat gauge in general is rather boring. It's constant upkeep with no payoff.

I like your suggestions though. Let me add another one.

Gauss Barrel
This should not be a thing that requires a OGCD. It's already a pain weaving this post wildfires and to get a gain you have to be in a situation where absolutely no lag can occur, weave it on, and have the changing of normals to overheated shots not eat a GCD. if any part of that locks you for longer than a GCD you've lost damage for overheating. It doesn't matter how strong that raid buff wombo combo is.
Remove Gauss Barrel from OGCD or make it so you don't have to reapply it. OR Failing that, turn it into an attack.


Lastly:

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This is not a "lets wait and see what happens in Savage" and update it in 4.1 type of thing.

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I don't think the lesson was learned last time. By the time MCH got overbuffed to OP levels it still didn't matter and the job remained one of the least popular ones. I would like to not have to go through this

http://i.imgur.com/OMT9Yfo.png

every expansion.

But for all our faults at least I'm about 50/50 of seeing a RF that allows a MCH when they're not just blanket letting in all jobs. Poor SMN is excluded from near everything.

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Originally Posted by Elnidfse

There were really two routes we could have gone given the previous pre4.05 situation. The job was hard (almost too hard for new comers and some veterans) so we had:
High Effort for low reward
That's a problem. There's two ways to fix that:
1) Go high effort / high reward as was their design philosophy for Samurai. With this. Even if mistakes happen they are balanced by high damage. And even novice MCH can play suboptimally to get okay returns with gains peaking the better they get
or
2) Go low Effort / low Reward This keeps status quo. It also makes the job easier to play for novice MCH by allowing them to play at a relatively higher level, raising their DPS.
It's obvious which one we have now. Mind you it still very much is a (relatively) demanding job in order to squeeze out your last few hundred which requires clipping and lag to be so far practiced out of your rotation that they could happen even if you fumble.

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I know that is what they said but they contradict themselves with this statement. Samurai is by the easiest job to play in the game and it outshines all other DPS significantly. Red Mage is relatively easy to play and it outshines other caster DPS and can heal/raise/support decently on top of that.

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But your point about:

Because most people who don't run math or have the patience to do SSS for hours have any clue if OH was a gain or not. Hell lots of early SB MCH didn't know Overdrive - > Overload didn't increase our wildfire damage.

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Was more in understanding the concept of overheat I was referring to. Sorry if that wasn't made clear.

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Overheat needs to be reworked altogether. If a little bit of lag can turn a gain into a loss it's simply not worth it. And the reward for maintaining sweetspot heat is neither high nor that rewarding. You basically fight against your bar (admittedly you don't have to care about it at all now) to get relatively low DPS. Is 20% on that and 10% on hotshot enough? I don't know. I'm not even sure if 20% would compensate for a single GCD mispress. Because I don't think it would but I might be wrong. I think Overheat in general needs to be tuned way the heck up or given special interaction with wildfire so that you still would only overheat when WF is up. I'm pretty sure overheating doesn't compensate for the loss of Blood 4 Blood + Raging Strikes + Hawk's Eye.
My wildfires on average hit for less than half of my wildfires in Heavensward and that's not okay

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It depends on how it is in the long run. Was thinking 20% would put them on line with BRD and more might make it OP but I think someone crunching the numbers would better prove this than me. I am going by some numbers I have seen people make.

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This would be fine too but I wouldn't get why overheat would exist with any sort of positive at all if it's meant to be a negative. And I'd love to say "it can be used for burst" but it requires such a slow buildup to get there, twice as long now. God forbid you use flamethrower and just throw your potency away. Not to mention the potential 5 seconds you'd have to be spending burning anyways. And would a 2% boost to hotshot really even help us?

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Yea which goes back to my question if it is meant to be a tool for more DPS or a punishment. I would think it is the latter but the DPS boost makes me think otherwise. Doesn't say in the tool tips when you first get the function.

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Also: On Overheat
The heat gauge in general is rather boring. It's constant upkeep with no payoff.

I like your suggestions though. Let me add another one.

Gauss Barrel
This should not be a thing that requires a OGCD. It's already a pain weaving this post wildfires and to get a gain you have to be in a situation where absolutely no lag can occur, weave it on, and have the changing of normals to overheated shots not eat a GCD. if any part of that locks you for longer than a GCD you've lost damage for overheating. It doesn't matter how strong that raid buff wombo combo is.
Remove Gauss Barrel from OGCD or make it so you don't have to reapply it. OR Failing that, turn it into an attack.

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Looks good to me.

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Lastly:


I don't think the lesson was learned last time. By the time MCH got overbuffed to OP levels it still didn't matter and the job remained one of the least popular ones. I would like to not have to go through this

http://i.imgur.com/OMT9Yfo.png

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It is kind of surprising a gun job would not be very popular despite their DPS. I think there was some stigma that they were a hard job to play and to an extent in 3.0 they were. It may of been intimidating to people and on top of that technically not a dedicated DPS.

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But for all our faults at least I'm about 50/50 of seeing a RF that allows a MCH when they're not just blanket letting in all jobs. Poor SMN is excluded from near everything.

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This is more an issue on a Savage raid level and maybe an Extreme primal level to a small extent. Besides Savage there is no situation that a high amount of DPS is needed to take down a fight. Realistically no one cares if you are the lowest DPS job joining as long as you can do DPS. Most are in the mindset that they will take a lower DPS job that knows that they are doing over a higher DPS job that has no idea how to play their job. Just some people see "Err MCH sux" on forums and think they are terrible for everything and keep them out of PF. This is only an insignificant few and most don't realistically care.

Myself personally am in the raiding scene. We have been able to take down OS1 and 2 no problem and 3 hasn't been an issue either in terms of DPS checks. I at least make sure I play MCH to the best of my abilities and hasn't hindered us. So it is not a huge deal in terms of that. But there may come a fight, especially the super boss they are releasing in the odd patch and my MCH despite my ability to play it may not be enough. I do not want this to happen and SE should react to their abysmal low DPS as soon as possible.

I think I'm going to make a heartfelt thread at some point expressing in no uncertain ways my feelings. This threads title was started by somebody who was probably a bit miffed with the changes and won't be good for what I want to say

As a side note, I'd really like for them to allow us to change retainer jobs while keeping level at least once per expansion for new jobs or cases like this where they kill a job.

Hmm iv notice that mech suffers a downtime between wildfires

I feel that they need to remove the RnG with split shot and slug shot , because once wildfire combo is done.... im legit fighting against RnG unless my reload and quick reload are back up

Another thing is i really do not like the overheat or flame thrower they both feel very pointless and TOO situational to use

Im doing 3.3k in 306 ilvl.... and i feel that mech needs leadshot back but combine it into hotshot.... boost gauss barrel to 10% ... raise over heat to 15 seconds but your shots become "overheated shots" with 20 more potency added to all ur shots whilst overheated

And flamethrower..... sigh

The RNG literally makes the job. It's been that way forever. You use ammo to mitigate RNG. And generally you shouldn't be going that long before a weave or a qr to begin with. Think of procs as bonuses to your damage but not what we're exclusively balanced around.

I do like the overheated shot idea though.