[Stormblood] [Dragoon Rotation] COME ON AND SLAM

Has anyone else noticed that popping BotD pre-pull helps free up some of the double weaving? Plus you still have plenty of time (6-7 seconds) left on BotD when you hit your 4th combo.

Here's what I'm doing for opener:
2 secs before pull (BotD) Run in on pull (or backflip for style points) (Littany) HT (Infusion Pot) ID (DS + B4B) Dis (SSD) CT (Gierk + MD) 4th (Jump) 5th (DFD) TT (MD) VT (LS) FT 4th 5th.
-DS and B4B are still up for my second 5th combo.
-Using SSD earlier, you will have ~4-5 secs until geirk is available for LoTD once you use your 4th SSD.
-The only funky part is the moving to the flank after 4th but before Jump to set up 5th.

Thoughts? Investors...? Possibly you!

So anyone know what the supposed BiS for us is currently? Been looking around and haven't found anything solid. If there currently isn't one anyone know what's the lowest we want to hit on Skill Speed so I can plan something out around that? This will also be assuming that we still want DH>Det>Crit>SS.

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Originally Posted by TheKingSlayer

There are no dumb questions, Sunny made this is a safe space. The potency increase is only for the initial weapon skill hit. DoTs are snap-shotted by what buffs you have.

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Lol I know, but maining since 2.3 I feel silly not knowing :p And that makes sense (ie. with pairing B4B with CT), didn't know if the potency increase counted as a "buff" though. Thanks :D

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Originally Posted by Vincent_Mateus

As much as I love the lore and theme of the class, I can't bring myself to play it yet. I'm still not satisfied with the changes they made. I did have a question on how it's performing for players running savage though. I imagine the changes to elusive are incredibly useful, as my RDM is getting tons of optimal places to use Displacement.

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Many Omega S parties are using the DRG + BRD combo now. DRG keeps tethering the BRD thus the BRD topping the DPS charts in heavy-movement fights, along with the Disembowel buff and Battle Litany helping the BRD for crit procs. In a way, this is all enabled by the Dragon Sight range buff so the BRD doesn't have to be too close for the tether. Small changes, but it matters in the long run.

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Originally Posted by Orphan_Benn

This will also be assuming that we still want DH>Det>Crit>SS.

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DH > CRT = Det > SS

"CRT = DET because of Battle Litany. However, if one were to stack CRT (and DH) you can bet that you'll see CRT > DET." -Dervy

To piggyback, per Krindor:

"Per point value it is around 1700, but before 1700 crit is worth less than DH per point meaning that melding to hit 1700 is wrong and it's that you should instead try and hit 1700 without stacking any crit and then meld. Crit isn't worth stacking over DH until you can hit around 2700 for it to be better than DH, or 2300 for it to be better than DET."

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Originally Posted by TheKingSlayer

Has anyone else noticed that popping BotD pre-pull helps free up some of the double weaving? Plus you still have plenty of time (6-7 seconds) left on BotD when you hit your 4th combo.

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While I still strain to reduce wordiness in the OP, I do think this warrants mentioning somewhere (as with the merits of flipped SSD/Jump, the only reason it's not in there already is because I'm having trouble deciding). I heard rumors that some people were already doing this when it was 15s, so at 20s it should be nearly without risk. Nonetheless, I hesitate to present any non-foolproof precast as a "basic" technique.

I'm also iffy on precasting any buffs, honestly... HT is a great buff because the payoff is very quick, but buffing it itself seems kinda wimpy. And I already heard some complaints in HW that BL as soon as you tickle the boss is too early for some people. Perhaps when someone finally makes a really convincing party sim I can finally investigate that.

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Originally Posted by Orphan_Benn

So anyone know what the supposed BiS for us is currently? Been looking around and haven't found anything solid. If there currently isn't one anyone know what's the lowest we want to hit on Skill Speed so I can plan something out around that? This will also be assuming that we still want DH>Det>Crit>SS.

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After deciding that low SS is probably not a serious problem (by fiat... plus my entire ARR+HW raiding and theorycrafting experience other than AlexPrime was that all this "minimum SS" stuff was just not helping), I have finally decided to take a risk on at least presenting weights that reflect a very low SS set (which is linked there), and presuming that a "minimum" should be up to raiders who know what they like. For now, i320 weights are removed while I ponder how one might see a "crit transition" coming; I can't shake the feeling that since it's already here, it may be with us all expansion. People who will be using only Lost Allagan (Tomestone of Creation) gear will have high SS.

Also, while it is a much more minor update than I'd like, I have added the first graphic to Chapter 1. I pray it does not look too busy, but should that be the case, one's eyes should nonetheless be able to follow the icons while it is open on another window, screen, or mobile device, I think while practicing their GCD muscle memory.

I made a VERY tentative BiS for myself and figured why not toss it out to see what can be fixed: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/11S1T
This build is working off of DH>>crit=Det while favoring det. A build favoring crit: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/11S1H

As for pre-BoTD casting: I agree it may be a good idea if you know your tank. I weave BL into my 2nd GCD and given a 2.4 GCD, BoTD is at lets say 18s due to a "oops", which gives us 10s or so leeway to hit our 4th and 5th (for an instant 30s). Unless the tank does a countdown and you pop 13s early... there is no harm and it helps a lot.

To give context, our 4th and 5th give 20s roughly. When we pop BoTD, we technically need only 10s of it to top off while even less is fine if LoTD isn't ready. Pre-casting it at around 1-2s of a countdown gives us our 30s and, for Savage, more than enough room for LoTD (we won't have it for another minute) while freeing up some weave space.

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Originally Posted by kyrios91

Many Omega S parties are using the DRG + BRD combo now. DRG keeps tethering the BRD thus the BRD topping the DPS charts in heavy-movement fights, along with the Disembowel buff and Battle Litany helping the BRD for crit procs. In a way, this is all enabled by the Dragon Sight range buff so the BRD doesn't have to be too close for the tether. Small changes, but it matters in the long run.

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DRG is a bonafide support class now. DRG is being used to buff another support class. Oh the humanity....

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

I know potency is better on Jump and has a shorter CD, but am I wrong in thinking having the longer SSD on cool down sooner is better for getting more Mirage Dives or is it irrelevant?

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Think about it like this: if you know an exampled fight will be over in 10 minutes. While having SSD on a 60 second cooldown, you'll get at least 9 Spineshatter dives. On the same fight you'll be getting at least 19 Jumps.

(I think this is how potency per second works right?)
Jump's potency before buffs is 250 with a 30s CD meaning. 250/30s = 8.43 potency/s
SSD's potency before buffs is 200 with a 60s CD. 200/60s = 3.33 potency/s

Every second you don't use Jump is a 8.43 potency loss versus losing 3.33 potency in that second not using SSD.

In a B4B window, you can easily squeeze both in. The only time PPS would come into play, I'd think, is if a buff is going to fall off soon which requires prioritizing. Yes, Jump is more potent but when we look at possibly opening a 320 potency move sooner... perhaps shifting SSD isn't a bad idea?

Has anyone experimented with a high SKS build (1600+)? I met a DRG in-game while pugging O2S who claims he can get 200+ dps than the DH/crit builds because you "get more hits off during buff windows". I haven't been able to test this (because I dont have the gil yet) but if so, I'm really interested.

a question, at susano extreme, some people are claiming that 3100 is the minimal dps requirement. I find it quite odd, because ive been in groups with way lower dps and we still made it. So whats actually the minimal? I would say about 2700 and not dying.

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Originally Posted by Nora_of_Mira

Has anyone experimented with a high SKS build (1600+)? I met a DRG in-game while pugging O2S who claims he can get 200+ dps than the DH/crit builds because you "get more hits off during buff windows". I haven't been able to test this (because I dont have the gil yet) but if so, I'm really interested.

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Without any proof, he is most likely talking shit. The SKS threshold you would need to get an extra GCD within a buff window would likely need to be quite higher than that (maybe in the 2500+ league, I'm not quite sure). Also because BfB is no longer 30%, and DS and BfB only line up every 3rd BfB and 2nd DS which would still make it weaker than BfB, getting extra hits in the buff windows isn't a super large DPS gain anyway.

However, DRG gear always has copious amounts of SkS so maybe the Devs are trying to tell us something, no more TP issues coupled with the damage buff to autos and DET being buffed for autos aswell means that SkS is no longer a trash stat at least, the weight is quite close. However SkS suffers the most with downtime which is quite a common thing in O3S and O4S. Dhit and Crit despite being RNG are far more reliable

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Originally Posted by Frowny

In a B4B window, you can easily squeeze both in. The only time PPS would come into play, I'd think, is if a buff is going to fall off soon which requires prioritizing. Yes, Jump is more potent but when we look at possibly opening a 320 potency move sooner... perhaps shifting SSD isn't a bad idea?

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While it may be a small potency loss, I like SSD and Geirk early in the opener. It lines up better with 2nd SSD (4th eye) and Gierk coming off CD with in 6 secs of each other, this allows less time having to wait for Geirk to come back up to pop LoTD. Just a QoL sorta thing.

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Originally Posted by J1992

a question, at susano extreme, some people are claiming that 3100 is the minimal dps requirement. I find it quite odd, because ive been in groups with way lower dps and we still made it. So whats actually the minimal? I would say about 2700 and not dying.

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Sounds more like the minimal DPS they are willing to accept for their farms, but don't quote me on this. I have not done so, but know people that have and my understanding is that they are more mechanics based than anything else.

Hi, how would the opener look without taking a potion? You do mention some stuff in the bottom of your post, but I am unsure how the actual rotation looks like without a potion based on that information.

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Originally Posted by Vateriel

Hi, how would the opener look without taking a potion? You do mention some stuff in the bottom of your post, but I am unsure how the actual rotation looks like without a potion based on that information.

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(Heavy Thrust) Blood of the Dragon
(Impulse Drive) Battle Litany
(Disembowel) Dragon Sight + Blood for Blood
(Chaos Thrust) Jump
(Wheeling Thrust) Mirage Dive + Geirskogul
(Fang and Claw) Spineshatter Dive
(True Thrust) Dragonfire Dive
(Vorpal Thrust) Mirage Dive + Life Surge
(Full Thrust)
(Fang and Claw)
(Wheeling Thrust)

Basically just move 1 oGCD to the pot's spot. In this case, BOTD is the perfect candidate to pop (even pre-pull).

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Originally Posted by Tetsuya

Does the order of double-weave buffs matter or let's say can I use Blood for Blood + Dragon Sight instead of Dragon Sight + Blood for Blood?

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It shouldn't matter too much I'd think, unless you're going for massive optimization. Worse case maybe 1 gcd isn't buffed under a window. The only general rules are trying to pair B4B/LS with FT and B4B with CT for the DoT buff.

The differences between openers are forgivable in a long run; tens of potency lost over ~30 seconds, while tragic, is swimming in a sea of several thousand in the same timeframe (not even counting autoattacks). And in a short run, you can usually try your options out. In the future I hope to put together some charts to really explore these options, but that's not even on the horizon right now.

In tonight's edit (so... much... testing...), I will be swapping Blood for Blood into an earlier slot to alleviate That Thing: holding the 5th Mirage Dive for too long. It's possible to manage, but I think just one more GCD of slack makes it far less risky, plus I'm sure most of us are chomping at the bit to actually get to LotD by that point. It will perhaps be a weaker opener on paper, but technically it's more aggressive with the stronger cooldown, so without proving it, I think it's hardly even a tradeoff; a Mirage Dive and/or a delayed LotD window is the worse loss by far.

In retrospect, I should have noticed that 60s and 80s is more than 15s difference, but on patch day I was excited by the Mirage Dive change and eager to get straight to the jumps.

I'd be willing to argue our opener isn't where most of our damage is anymore. Nastrond is what we want and B4B is up by the time we hit that phase and it seems (from my experience) we have a "2nd opener" there. Hungry Eyes isn't available then granted, but it helps buff other melee who frontload more heavily.

Edit: I also glanced at your savage gear build and it seems viable, but I'm wary stacking that much crit currently given the small returns. I posted 2 a page or two back using the new info from Dervy but without further vetting I'm unsure what we should aim for. For Vit, I think that was only for 12S really as you would take unavoidable damage and, at first, it was damn near impossible to survive. It does help, but I'm not sure of any fight in 1-4s of Omega where we have similar.

About this openner

(Heavy Thrust) strength potion**
(Impulse Drive) Blood of the Dragon + Battle Litany
(Disembowel) Dragon Sight + Blood for Blood
(Chaos Thrust) Jump
(Wheeling Thrust) Mirage Dive + Geirskogul
(Fang and Claw) Spineshatter Dive
(True Thrust) Dragonfire Dive
(Vorpal Thrust) Mirage Dive + Life Surge
(Full Thrust)
(Fang and Claw)
(Wheeling Thrust)

Why BotD Before Blood for Blood? Also, Why not BotD BEFORE starting your rotation (pre pull) since now you have more than enought time to maintain it?

You want B4B for CT, 5th and a FT. Popping B4B a bit later gives that time needed.

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Originally Posted by Frowny

Edit: I also glanced at your savage gear build and it seems viable, but I'm wary stacking that much crit currently given the small returns.

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How about this... save your own copy of this and start plugging your desired gearsets' stats into cells B3:F3. I wish I could say I have the lowdown on damage formulas, because then it would be an okay approximation of DPS, but for now it is a Frankenstein'd mix of theory and logged damage scaled to STR. The guess at BiS is just that, a guess.

Either way, the reports of Critical Hit's demise are greatly exaggerated.

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Originally Posted by Frowny

For Vit, I think that was only for 12S really as you would take unavoidable damage and, at first, it was damn near impossible to survive. It does help, but I'm not sure of any fight in 1-4s of Omega where we have similar.

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As I hint in that section, it's a looooong history... buckle up :)

Last week, Angered used at least some VIT melds for their clear of savage Deltascape; they even talked about the merits of surviving longer--you won't see VIT melds discussed much in that thread; it's practically a given at this point, so it's not really apropos (they do mention Tenacity because it's new, and it's a bit analogous for tanks, really). Elysium also melded VIT this tier. To the best of my knowledge, VIT melds played a crucial role in almost every high-difficulty raid clear or progression towards it in this game, especially notable in Lucrezia's clears of SCoB savage and FCoB (Collision also did it, an obvious sign in early FCoB clears is monks having ~6000HP). The biggest exception may be savage Manipulator, and even then one could argue the accessory-melding situation for Gordias (60 iLvls below the drops, G5 melds straight up impossible) has never been seen before or since.

(Lucrezia also did a VIT melded i55 T5 and a no-meld T7 savage for kicks, though. They also had healers with tank accs for this Ravana, which was extremely fast pre-Gordias.)

Other MMORPGs have also seen progression raiders stacking HP to their benefit. It is also apparent in single-player RPGs with parallels to FFXIV raiding, such as FFXIII's adamantoise farming.

I truly believe that some of the highest skilled players in the world benefit from leeway when facing severe punishment for the slightest of errors with no strategy guide whatsoever to consult if something goes wrong. That is, I strongly disagree with the notion that they're doing this strictly to survive HP checks, or you wouldn't see the first-boss victory screenshots with inflated HP; it also has other benefits in terms of healer triage and "standing in the fire". Naturally, at times when my belief is the more useful alternative, it follows that what people who are less skilled need is more leeway, not 1.2-1.3% more DPS. At least till they've seen the enrage on the roughest DPS check available, anyway.

In terms of Fermi-esque fuzzy napkin math:
- VIT melds have a roughly double digit chance of being tested on any given pull in progression. 10% at lowest, let's say; most people make mistakes with crucial mechanics more often than one in ten pulls, so we'll up that to 15%. For a bad goon, we can guess about 2/3 of those will still be fatal. But it's still a payoff on 5% of pulls. So between 4 DPS, going from 85%^4 = 52.2% "problem free" attempts to 90%^4 = 65.6% is pretty massive actually.
- Generously round up the benefit of a full DPS meld on accessories to 2% (it's less than that). If we didn't know about the checks, we could estimate its benefit at ~2% of the time. Okay, but that's not really fair. If this is the entire wiggle room on an important DPS check, it will pay off nearly every time it's tried. However, think about how often it really comes down to that. It's not 0%, but it's close, and you can tell when it's coming, too. The obvious one is an enrage. So, you need to be wondering whether buying a ~2% sooner clear is worth it, and that has to be purchased within the raid's uptime, too, not the raid's actual timer. With 10min. uptime and no problem errors from anybody, you're getting yourself about 12 "extra" seconds, assuming you are perfect. How often is success hinging on ~12-15 seconds of pure damage?
- Mess with the numbers until you're satisfied, but I think with reasonable guesses, you generally find these two are not in the same ballpark, at least until you're hitting a very different level with regards to what mechanics can be ignored. Usually that level is "farm", usually the tuning is such that the raid drops themselves get you there. This is the reasoning behind my recommendation.

Full G6 VIT melds are a little weak off the bat (+7.5% HP on DRG, compare to FCoB where you could get that from overmelding VIT on just two or three accessories IIRC), and how much extra HP they contribute will stay at 125 VIT, so as a percentage of unmelded HP it will only decrease as the expansion continues. Let's cross that bridge when we get there, though.

Most people will probably never benefit from more VIT in Expert roulette or raids that are on farm, it's true. In raid progression or PUGs for anything with a chance of wiping, I think VIT is the better compromise by a long shot.

edit: Case in point. Many of those responses are from legit raiders at multiple levels of skill.

What are some thoughts on the Creation chest vs. weapon? My static gave me the O2S tomestone this week since my damage is pretty good (if I do say so myself), but I can't say I'm all that excited about trading 263 DH for 268 skill speed. Is 16 extra strength and 1 more point of damage really going to outweigh the loss of those secondaries?

My gut tells me it'll still be a DPS increase, but all that skill speed makes me sick.

Yes, since HW mainstat has always been more than 5x more effective than secondaries (with the exception of end of expansion crit). Especially with the removal of accuracy now ILVL increases are always a DPS increase. From what I have seen of the sub stat maths, all the substats are within .03 of each other anyway.

I've got a question: What do you opt out to do with Life Surge now that Full Thrust is 440 potency and the 2nd Fang/Wheeling is 390?

Is it better, after opener, to:
1) Life Surge first Fang/Wheeling
2) Life Surge second Fang/Wheeling

Factoring out buffs and estimating a crit multiplier of about 1.5 for sake of example.

- Life Surge always held for Full Thrust: crit to a 440p weaponskill once every ~55 seconds, approximately 220/55=4 pps gain over never critting (but you do crit, so, less than that). In event of a single mistake, can be reduced to 2/3 of that (2.67). Two mistakes, 1/2 that (2).
- Life Surge on Full Thrust or the 390: I don't know how this syncs up tbh; in one situation, on the 5th step after a Full Thrust, you would need a very fast GCD for this not to self-correct back to Full Thrust within 2 or 4 rotations. You can still see 195/52 = 3.75 which is better than 2.67.
- Using it just wherever: Average GCD is (180+190+230+270+290+390+150+240+440+290+390)/11=278.18. So, 139.09/50 = 2.78 pps, which is slightly better than holding out for Full Thrust.

Life Surge is a somewhat small portion of overall DPS. It's not nothing, but it's close to being just a feelgood move.

I don't know why or how but sometimes FT is up in my rotation but Life Surge is still 2-3s away from coming off CD. Tempted to wait for it or use it on a 5th, but what is going on...?

In the case of a continuous fight with no interruption for over 3 minutes, the third BfB will be available slightly before the second litany, how would you manage it? Back in 3.x I found holding BfB for a bit to align it with litany to be a good compromise, but now if I do that I might actually lose an eye.

Well, in HW, you had the 90s cooldown so the sync should've been somewhat natural. Never even considered it, to be honest. (I should state my bias that I was a staunch opponent of holding BfB in ARR. And to this day, I still am biased towards opportunity cost avoidance > marginal gain.) Are we now faced with an era of pooling BfB with BL?

First, I want a fuzzy estimate of Litany interpreted as a damage buff. At 20% natural rate, around 2000 crit (similar to around 1000 crit for the same in HW... it's almost like they plan this stuff!), the multiplier should be 1.55x. So, 1+0.2·0.55=1.11 naturally, and 1.1925 while under Litany. So, interpreted as an averaged-out damage buff, it's 1.1925/1.11=1.074. Pretty close to an eye-ball guess of 1+0.15·0.5=1.075, unlike HW (where at 20% rate it would be ~1.080).

(1.15·1.074·20+1.15·8·20+1.074·3·20+480)/720=1.046 synced naturally (it takes 12 minutes!)
(1.15·1.074·20+1.15·20+140)/180=1.043 manually synced

In other words, I wouldn't intentionally hold to put these together. But I also wouldn't necessarily complain if it were forced to happen... or if we had 160s Battle Litany just to make most of our teammates bemoan the timing ;D

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

I don't know why or how but sometimes FT is up in my rotation but Life Surge is still 2-3s away from coming off CD. Tempted to wait for it or use it on a 5th, but what is going on...?

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It's not a situation I've run into before. I'll talk about something else, perhaps the reason why I can't corroborate: I've pretty much erred on the side of clipping into FT slightly when a Life Surge problem comes up! For years!

I've gotten away with it despite how counterintuitive it is; isn't clipping bad? Yes. Very. But the problem is, that doesn't hold so strictly when there is a fairly immediate interplay with your GCDs. It's better considered a part of the GCD subsystem, kinda.

? (/ (+ 180 190 230 270 290 390 150 240 440 290 390) 27.0)
113.333336 ; this might be your rotation, ish.
? (/ (+ 180 190 230 270 290 390 150 240 (* 440 1.25) 290 390) 27.25)
116.33028 ; LS with a really really bad 0.5s clip on FT but smooth for the second cycle
? (/ (+ 180 190 230 270 290 390 150 240 440 290 (* 390 1.25)) 27.0)
116.94444 ; smooth all the way through but you wait for 5th step
? (/ (+ 180 190 230 270 290 390 150 240 (* 440 1.25) 290 390) 27.1)
116.97417 ; LS with 200ms clip, which most people would notice

So uh... yeah. Maybe this is bad, but in that case, "ahm bad".

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Originally Posted by SunnyHirose

(1.15·1.074·20+1.15·8·20+1.074·3·20+480)/720=1.046 synced naturally (it takes 12 minutes!)
(1.15·1.074·20+1.15·20+140)/180=1.043 manually synced

In other words, I wouldn't intentionally hold to put these together. But I also wouldn't necessarily complain if it were forced to happen... or if we had 160s Battle Litany just to make most of our teammates bemoan the timing ;D

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Hmm, I guess unless BfB is naturally shifted due to mechanics or phase changes I should just use litany on cd. Thanks a lot, that was insightful. Also yeah 160s litany would make everyone lose their minds lol.

And at what point do I do a chaos dunk?

Can we talk about why DRGs STILL have 5% on piercing? I understand it was a nerf during Creator, but why is slashing still 10% then? It is far more potent than piercing. DRGs are the only melee without 10% resistance. YOSHI PLS

Does anyone know the dps difference between both body pieces. At first I thought the time body was BiS because of how good direct hit is and the buff to determination but I'm seeing the savage body being BiS.

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Originally Posted by mugenwalker

Can we talk about why DRGs STILL have 5% on piercing? I understand it was a nerf during Creator, but why is slashing still 10% then? It is far more potent than piercing. DRGs are the only melee without 10% resistance. YOSHI PLS

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It is not more potent than piercing.

When you look at Slashing, there's 5 Jobs that have that damage type. However, only 2 lack the ability to provide it for themselves (DRK/PLD). The other 3 (SAM/NIN/WAR) have the debuff as a required component in their rotations. Simply put, that means PLD and DRK are the only real beneficiaries of the debuff. The balance in the Slashing debuff is mostly in that multiple Jobs bring it, and the benefiting Jobs are guaranteed to be in the party (at least 1 of 2 only if you bring a WAR). It can't hurt the meta because of the nature of party setup. While the percentage is higher, those who you're bringing Slashing debuff for do less damage, so the rDPS contribution is lower than piercing.

Piercing is done by 3 Jobs, and only 1 (DRG) provides piercing. That's the first problem. If anyone's to benefit from Piercing, it forces you to lock at least 2 of 4 slots. And if both BRD and MCH are in good spots, offering great DPS and/or utility, you've locked 3. Overall rDPS contribution is higher, due to MCH/BRD damage being higher. The potential it has for stifling variety in party composition is too great, because any buff to Piercing brings us closer to DRG/MCH/BRD meta. Buffs to Slashing certainly change the overall output of each individual Slashing Job, but it wouldn't affect the overall party composition as much as Disembowel could alone.

Coming from a DRG main since 2.0, dabbling in other melee. It needed toned down. More specifically, all of these debuffs need replaced with something a little more interactive or interesting.

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Originally Posted by NineFouryFive

And at what point do I do a chaos dunk?

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The first time will be an accident and nearly everyone who survives it will hold a grudge against you for the rest of your life. Also the Deactivated Ultimate B-Ball mount will drop and you will roll 99. Riding a bouncing Allagan orange into the sunset, you casually remark once again that you are not a role model, despite any indications to the contrary.

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Originally Posted by LiquidSwordz

Does anyone know the dps difference between both body pieces. At first I thought the time body was BiS because of how good direct hit is and the buff to determination but I'm seeing the savage body being BiS.

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1) There is a lot of misinformation out there concerning the relative merits of DH vs. CH. This is not my first rodeo, though, so I waited to see what the choices were before drawing any conclusions. Even though I'm basically looking at the same formulas as anyone else....

2) The BiS is just a guess. But I am a good guesser, if I do say so myself. Unfortunately, recent investigations show that I do actually have to do the thing I didn't want to have to, which is to write a computer program to find the real one via exhaustive search.

3) Specific gear pieces don't actually do more or less damage; the difference is only accurate in context of the rest of the set. Plus, with accuracy requirements removed and TP relaxed greatly, there aren't even those few pieces that are nigh on unusable like there used to be.

Secondaries matter so little that the difference between that BiS guess and going all Lost Allagan + Genji spear + Genji ring is about 0.6%. Just the weapon and one of the rings is the discernible difference between a raider's and a non-raider's potential DPS, once upgrade items start being available outside raids (happens in odd-numbered patches).

Yea, seems min-maxing right now gains very little. Using a new calculator that was released on reddit (holy numbers!), shifting 250 DH and 250 DET to crit is only a .22% increase. Still messing around a bit but the 4S chestpiece, if you're shooting for BiS, seems like the good choice.

Slightly off-topic, Momo recently posted a dragoon guide which covers a lot of optimization tips, including fight specific uptime optimizations, which I found pretty helpful: https://youtu.be/E-tWGBZZ-5E. I hope Sunny doesn't mind me posting this here, since this thread is the most active 4.x dragoon discussion thread.

I think it is on topic, thanks for sharing. It is pretty spot-on from a "this is what you do if you are Robocop" perspective. Which is the complete opposite angle from what I'm trying to take, of course; the further your and your raid group's performance is from Momo's (it is a very skilled melee player and a very skilled team), the less I feel that should be the concern. So surely I've made myself a laughingstock in some Discord chat or two, but when it comes to very different recommendations, it's really not about whether the legit speedrunner or some sweaty goonlord on the OF with too many spreadsheets open (and isn't raiding this season) is more credible. It's different goals.

For instance, my sample opener is not there to take you to the top of FFLogs or prevent any awkwardness; it's there for learning the job. So you get to the unavoidable and common BfB -> FT/WC check -> Geirskogul -> Mirage check -> Nastrond sequence almost ASAP, instead of hesitating about whether such-and-such really the best place to BfB (but note the guide never says that, it is rather my hope that one tries it out and starts internalizing that sequence without my input). And where Jump gets awkward, it's at that time you're staring the actual cost in the face, rather than eating it in the opener. Hiding it can be optimal in many situations, in fact, but from the emphasis I'm trying to place, I file that under "clever gambit", not "should do".

In economic terms, the "cost" of something is what you could have done with the same resource (time, for most DPS activity). But also in economic terms, your options to exercise are limited, and further limited by your awareness of those options. So I'm trying to look at it as a problem of calling the shots as they come, and that must give you different conclusions from the problem of fitting the most actions into a time window, aligning your buffs for one last hurrah as a fight closes, etc.

If I did have a criticism: Some of the stuff in the first section doesn't sound factually correct, e.g. you can just hold that Geirskogul for Dragon Sight, no biggie, but maybe there are different opener considerations that are being taken as a given there.

If I had praise: Momo has masterful uptime, observe it closely. I also seem to recall a reddit comment that was good enough to be a guide on its own, but I can't find it now and I may just be misattributing it in my head.