[SPOILERS] Heavensward vs Stormblood MSQ Story

Fordola and Yotsuyu are like Nidhogg. Both are antagonized but you can understand why they're like that due to their past.

After reading some posts in here I do believe that most of my criticism for SB are there thanks to two issues: Pacing and scale.

Pacing: It felt way better in HW. Yes you still defeated Thordan and his knights in the first part of the expansion but since its mostly only about Ishgard itself, the pacing feels slower. You get to know the people and their reasons, see the different sides and at the end you still know that the big bad (Nidhogg) is still alive. The bad things in HW were the solution to the Uldah situation and the WoD. Otherwise it still took us a whole expansion and lots of adventures to make peace between dragons and humanity.

In SB we just defeated Zenos and Shinyru at the first part of the expansion and there was no hint that anyone of them could get back somewhere down the line. So we did not just defeat the strong Zenos and on top of that the really strong primal, no we single handedly (or with a bunch of other adventurers) took back Ala Mhigo. So at the very beginning of the expansion we already took back two states from Garlemald..which leaves me with the question of what will happen in the rest of the expansion. After feeling that it was too easy to get them back, it would still be bad if we would suddenly lose them again. And I am not sure if some mere human conflict in these states would be enough to tell for a whole expansion..Also what enemy will we have to face (that suddenly comes out of nowhere) after we already faced those two monsters?

Scale: This was always a bit of a problem for FF14. In the HW CGI trailer you see the sky full with a big army of dragons that are flying to Ishgard. You truly get the sense of danger..in the actual ingame scene you see a bunch of dragons on a bridge thus you dont get the scale of the battle. Its gotten way worse in SB. I never got the feeling that we are having a war. There were never enough people there to make it feel like it. We have Azim that should be full of Xaela, yet barely any tribe have many members shown. The villages in Doma also barely have any people in cutscenes. When Yotsuyu arrived in that fisher village you have very few people in the cutscene, yet later you will see way more NPCs around. Where were they? The same in the fight against Doma castle. You have like five Au Ra in the air, a couple of badly armed villagers against a handful of Garlean soldiers and Hien and his friends in the castle itself. And somehow we won. I know that Doma is not that big but still it felt not grand. Also at Hiens speech there are barely any people there. Are these all of Doma?

At least with Doma you could say that its tiny but Ala Mhigo was a own city state yet if felt not quite bigger. Why did Varis not sent more soldiers there, he should know that his son does not care for it. In the end you take Ala Mhigo back with a handful of people. Yes I know that theoretically its more thanks to all the city states but it was never shown that way. When we fought our way through Ala Mhigo you see some people fighting..like around five people on each side..I never truly felt that this was war and that we fought an empire that is way more advanced than us..why did the rebellion never went that far? Zenos was not always the head of this so I really got the feeling that this just shows the rebellions as completely incompetent.

And on top of that we never had much time to truly celebrate. We had a cutscene with Lyse on the front and signing but why not have a ending where we have a big party and at the end of it they will sing the song. It felt more like we just had done a side quest and not just the liberation of two states..

If we ever go to a big war against the core empire...they really have to increase their scale in battles..otherwise it will never feel that interesting at all. (For me) In movies like Lord of the rings you will truly get the feeling of war thanks to the massive amount of people on both sides..I know that the might not be able to show so many NPCs ingame but why not make a very grand cutscene? But even in cutscenes I never felt like we had much people there.

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Originally Posted by Yuella

Fordola and Yotsuyu are like Nidhogg. Both are antagonized but you can understand why they're like that due to their past.

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Uh... not really? Fordola wanted to save the Ala Mhigas and in order to do so she recruits a few Ala Mhigans to the imperals so they can decimate the other Ala Mhigans better. Yotsuyu had problems with her family and she sunddely wanted to burn every single Doman alive. Nidhogg had her sister killed and her eyes ripped from her head right before him and then had his own eyes ripped from his head while he was still alive, and all this from the people they had helped build a great kingdom and for the sole sake of having more power.

Yeah... I have a feeling that I can understand Nidhogg better.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Why did Varis not sent more soldiers there, he should know that his son does not care for it. In the end you take Ala Mhigo back with a handful of people. Yes I know that theoretically its more thanks to all the city states but it was never shown that way.

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I've seen some people questioning this and the reason is fairly simple, they simply could not. That is why we go to Doma in the first place, so the Empire can not focus it's full attention on Ala Mhigo, after the victory in Doma, Hien states that he sent the shinobi to spread word of their victory around the world, so that the empire would have their hands full dealing with insurgents or insurgent threats.

It's also very likely that Zenos was reporting that everything was under control and the reinforcement was not required, only so that you would have a easier time making your way to fight him.

They wasted Shinryu to be honest. It could have been something with political and literal fallout to deal with over the next few patches, but nope! Stuffed in a box for Zenos to waste.

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Originally Posted by Nezia

Uh... not really? Fordola wanted to save the Ala Mhigas and in order to do so she recruits a few Ala Mhigans to the imperals so they can decimate the other Ala Mhigans better. Yotsuyu had problems with her family and she sunddely wanted to burn every single Doman alive. Nidhogg had her sister killed and her eyes ripped from her head right before him and then had his own eyes ripped from his head while he was still alive, and all this from the people they had helped build a great kingdom and for the sole sake of having more power.

Yeah... I have a feeling that I can understand Nidhogg better.

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Nidhogg experienced sudden trauma. the other two lived under prolonged brainwashing, indoctrination, torture and abuse. it's easier for us to imagine sudden trauma.

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Originally Posted by Nezia

I've seen some people questioning this and the reason is fairly simple, they simply could not. That is why we go to Doma in the first place, so the Empire can not focus it's full attention on Ala Mhigo, after the victory in Doma, Hien states that he sent the shinobi to spread word of their victory around the world, so that the empire would have their hands full dealing with insurgents or insurgent threats.

It's also very likely that Zenos was reporting that everything was under control and the reinforcement was not required, only so that you would have a easier time making your way to fight him.

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But we are still talking about an empire that wants to conquer the whole world. And I do hope that their leader Varis is not stupid so he should have seen that the main target is Ala Mhigo. After Doma fell we went back to Ala Mhigo with a ship, which takes months to travel between the countries. More than enough time to send more people to Ala Mhigo. Also isnt it strange how he does not even punish his own son after the fall of Doma? I mean he already says that is son is simply a monster yet he trusts him that much? If they do not have enough people to stop some rebellions in smaller states and to sent more to Ala Mhigo (and they are technological advanced, they just needed to sent more killing machines) then they are not that great to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

We have Azim that should be full of Xaela, yet barely any tribe have many members shown.

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I think it's important to note here just how big the Steppe is: we only see a little bit of it! If you look off across the desert, it goes on for a while. If you look out to the east, it continues on to the horizon. The Azim Steppe is huge, we only visit part of it -- we don't see the Dalamiq's river (which is supposed to be a full two malms wide in places), we don't see the Yanxia Bay to the east, etc. So it makes sense that we didn't see very many Bayaqud, for example, because the Steppes are so big that their village is way far away from where we're tromping around; a bunch of tribes live in the Nhaama Desert, too, and we only barely touch on that.

https://i.imgur.com/izdkOvG.gif

On the map it looks to be bigger than the entirety of Vylbrand-- to really do it justice they'd have to devote like four zones to it, minimum, which they definitely weren't going to do*. As it is, I think it's impressive they represented as many tribes as they did. It fits with the idea of the Dawn Throne and Reunion being kind of a central meeting place without requiring every tribe to camp out on the lawn, you know?

*although if they do, sign me up, give me a full xaela expansion, i'm down

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Good stuff about the scale of battles in FFXIV

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Well, Dragon Age: Origins was able to show great cutscenes with plenty of enemies, using the in-game engine, and that was like years ago (https://youtu.be/3m6U_f2mS6c). I don't know what's preventing SE to at least show similar cutscenes. There's also ways to show a lot of stuff happening around during normal gameplay without it being taxing on the system (like using lower res/detail models with simple animations for things happening afar). I'm sure that they can use these tricks to implement some sense of scale to battles. Not to mention that even the benchmarks show more people than the actual story battles, so the engine can handle it (I'm talking about NPCs here, not players, as that comes with other issues).

I felt the same way regarding scale. I tend to just role with it in game, because I can understand engine limitations and so forth. But that does take me out of the game. I mean, the last battle for Ala Mhigo. No armies, no legion, the entire airforce of the XII is taken out by four people on birds. For me, all they would have had to do was show.. or even tell.. a little more. Like, Oh.. a unit of griffin Calvary (lore wise the traditional ala mhigon unit, I think) is skirmishing here, keeping them distracted. It could still let Hien show up and save us from the reserves or whatever. I had a blast, but it didn't feel as fleshed out as HW did.

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Originally Posted by Nezia

Ala Mhigans better. Yotsuyu had problems with her family and she sunddely wanted to burn every single Doman alive..

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There are women who hate all men because they got hurt / cheated on by 1 man

They do not even have to show them ingame if that is too much for a lot of systems. But if you have the theme of war as your expansion, at least the cutscenes should show this. Show us a large amount of people from the different city states rush toward Ala Mhigo and maybe show some more people in the air.

I mean you do all the things in the Azim Steppe to get the help of the tribes and at the end we have like five Xaela at the battle field? And these small amount of Xaelas can take out the whole air machines? The same in Ala Mhigo. You have like Hien, Yugiri and three ninjas in the air that are taking out all the machines..it simply does not feel like war to me and at least in cutscenes you could do much more. I mean look at the amount of soldiers at the battle of Cartenau. That feels at least like a true battle.

Agreed on the lack of war in the war.... one of vids they released before the sb launch showed us a battle between the ala mhigans and empire with magitek and their new bio weapons all in action out on the battlefield.... yet that cutscene never appeared on game (yet)..

That wqas the benchmark trailer, which deliberately exaggerated the action to test performance.

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

That wqas the benchmark trailer, which deliberately exaggerated the action to test performance.

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Still after seeing that I feel let down by what we actually got

Hmm 2 months into SB, gave myself plenty of time to reflect. And even though SB is only 4.0 and there is plenty yet to come, for now I stick with HW as the better experience.

Too many things in SB just felt "unnatural", e.g. purposefully scripted, did for a specific intent or to convey a specific point, it's just making it harder to genuinely appreciate the good parts such as the Eastern themes, when you are thrown out of the immersion every now and then.

While SB is quite polished overall, I think it lacks, or didn't really express it's "core" enough. I get that all the themes and ideals look good on paper, with revolutions and Lyse character growth and all that, but the execution just falls on its face from too many awkward plot arcs.

Hmmm... Yeah, I do feel like SB felt a little weaker than HW. Just a bit though. It's like an 86 vs 84 score.

To be honest I think some of the reasons SB felt better than HW is due to it having a bigger budget allowing square to do some things better than HW story wise such as more voiced cutscenes. Now if the expansions had been flipped and SB had come first, I really think that the money would have translated into HW being the hands down victor. HW had a better concept with story and did do things better than SB standard revolution story. But I think this has to do with HW being about the journey of the characters to end genocidal war while incorporating strong interactions and emotional moments with our companions that were that is severely lacking in SB. The best part of SB for me is all the Doma stuff and Zenos. But the weakest character of our main cast who we are supposed to care about, Lyse, really pulls down the narrative. I don't feel she ever had any defining moments that stuck out that should have resulted in her becoming the leader of the resistance.

And honestly, this is where SB really starts to fall short of HW 3.0. For SB it was a nice journey fighting back the Garleans, but with Lyse not being a strong character like Alphinaud or Estinien her becoming leader just felt 'oh yeah this needs to happen but we didn't plan out a good enough reason so let's just shoe horn this here'. Meanwhile, we see the evolution of Alphinaud beginning, Estinien and his hatred, and Ysayle's revelation on what she believed in and what she did. Sure it wasn't smooth and really needed more scenes or dialogue to hit the story out of the park, but everything we worked on was accumulating into a strong ending. (Even if beating Thordan was a joke.) The fact is at 3.0 FFXIV pulled the rug out from beneath us when one of our companions turns into Nidhogg giving us a new challenge we can understand we need to beat and we now have Ishgard politically in upheaval (this upheaval I wish was explored more but once again HW did not have the budget nor time to develop deeply).

Comparing this to SB, we have a weak character who has no leader traits in charge of the resistance and a battle with Zenos that is worse than Thordan because of how they handled such an amazing bad guy. Why did he have to turn into a dragon? Why couldn't they have us fighting him and somehow lose and Zenos flee for some odd reason. Hell if they really needed a shoe horn things in here they could have dropped a nearby Estinien in there who is modified as f from Nidhogg and chase a weakened Zenos away and we still take back Ala Mhigo but we still have that sense of we lost and we would be reunited with a character that many of us love. That would have been better ending than the whole singing and que credits with logo. Just that helplessness would have been better than killing off a bad guy that was amazing.

And I'll be honest here, the best companions were Alisiae and Alphinaud in SB. Due to having personality and meaning something to our character. Lyse we never got anything out of her other than a monologue and she was boring. The side characters, thank god, were not. Also, leading up to taking back Ala Mhigo how Aymeric and the Ishgardians treat us just puts me more into the camp that HW had a better story. Aymeric treats us like a friend and the Ishgardians are ecstatic to see us. I got more heartwarming feels from their reactions than standing at the end singing a song at the end of SB.

In short HW has better characterization and better stakes. I guess the one thing I can say about SB over HW is that the pacing is much, much better and they give us a slow build up. That unfortunately doesn't pay off all that well.

Best SB character imo is Hein, a character I actually want to work with... the worst is lyse, I've hated her as far back as when I first met her as yda... there is literally no reason for her to be the leader of the resistance... command experience? Nope. Geographic knowledge? Not really. Combat ability? Hardly. Hell when was the last time she was even in ala mhigo?

While I can agree that Lyse didn't ad much to the story beside being irritating and that nobody got as much development and Alphinaud and Estinien got in HW I really liked how much we learned about our companions as we visited the hometowns of most of them. Also loved how much Au Ra lore we got in the Azym Steppes.

I never cared much for Ala Mhigo so I was glad half the expansion didn't focus on them. Zenos wasn't as interesting as Thordan, but the final battle was super epic nonetheless. While Lakshmi wasn't that well integrated into the story as Ravanna or Bismarck, her music and fight trumps both.

I also liked the SB dungeons more. And the zones. None were as exotic as Azys Lla or the Sylplands (I am a sucker for places like those) But Kugane and the Ruby Sea make up for that.

I feel the the story of HW was better because it was able to hone in on core themes based on the cultures and conflicts present around Ishgard. When we see Ser Aymeric ride in at the end atop Hraesvelgr I truly got the sense that we have moved heaven and earth and for the better. Thordan and his Heavensward Knights, along with Nidhogg and his Horde, were good villains because they were understandable.

Stormsblood suffers out the gate because the main story is split between two areas, Ala Mhigo and Doma, and what we could see were largely dilapidated villages and war-torn ruins. Kugane was a nice local, but it's neutrality and subsequent departure from the main story (save as a base for the Scions) meant it added little to our experience in Doma. The main villain, Zenos, was a full-throttle Blood Knight who was likely the product of Sephiroth Style Genetic Testing by his father but who lacked the deep character and thought of everyone's favorite one-winged angel. Fordola was relate-able, and she even had a Bond Girl vibe as she lounged on the magitek armor before flying off after a final taunting. But I was always under the impression she would survive because of her qualities. Yotsuyu, on the other hand, had no redeeming qualities or any reason for remaining in the story after her apparent demise. That most of her qualities seem to be drawn from severe mental disorders stemming from mistreatment as a child and subsequent abuse as an adult instilled her character with a sense of thoughtless where it concerned actions. No other villain in the FF14 lineup has such a problem.

Like HW, we can't judge Stormsblood on an even scale until the planned subsequent story of the expansion comes out. But it will likely continue to suffer from the disjointed narrative connecting all of its new zones.

I should include this as a qualifier: Stormblood was money well spent for me. I enjoyed the gameplay, the new mechanics, the new areas (especially exploring them!). And this is coming from someone who usually pays far more attention to the storyline of a Final Fantasy game, than its gameplay. Unfortunately, SB's storyline was executed poorly, which meant my experience with the game suffered.

Perhaps one of the biggest disadvantages SB had, against HW, was that HW's characters and story elements had a lot more buildup than SB did. Think about it: We met both Ysayle and Aymeric in 2.4, giving us time to get to know them, even slightly, before we got into 3.0. We also technically first met Estinien all the way back in 2.0. That gave them time to establish their characters to us. We cared about them long before we ever hit Ishgard. And so the 3.0 story was a great and natural progression of their respective characters, meaning that HW didn't have to rush in and cram all its side characters down our throats, as SB ended up trying to do.

Speaking of characters, let's also discuss our main companions for each expansion.

HW (and ARR): Alphinaud. Easily the character with the most detailed character arc I've ever seen in any FF game, if only because his story was drawn out over like 10 patches. He started out as a refreshingly active character in 2.0, making his debut just after the Scions cast got cut out of the story. He proved himself to be remarkably more resourceful and proactive than Minfilia - bringing us to kill Garuda without any help whatsoever from the Scions or their resources, then organising their rescue, before handing the limelight over to the Eorzean Alliance for Operation Archon.

In 2.1-2.5, he was the one who had to convince Minfilia to move to Revenant's Toll, and went out with us to look for her mother when she wouldn't. At this point, I kept wondering why a 16-year-old managed to be more proactive and get better results than a bunch of people several times his age. Then he went on to be the one to speak to Yugiri and offer the Domans refuge in Revenant's Toll (why couldn't Minfilia have done this?), and then dropped out of the storyline to organise the logistics of the Crystal Braves. We all know the mess that ultimately stemmed from that, leading us to 3.0.

In 3.0, we killed 2 primals. Story-wise, we had no help from the Scions (unless you want to count Cid as one of the Scions) for either of those fights, which made me realise just how amazingly ineffectual the Scions have been in their fight against the primals despite having sworn to combat the primal threat by any means. We did, however, have Alphinaud, and by this point, that's really all we need.

But I'm sick of summarising, so point is: Alphinaud got shit done. He was and still is the single most complex character in the story. It's easy to see how the friendship between him and the WoL develops. And when you're comparing this to...

SB: Lyse, well, she's just gonna fall short. But dear god, she was irritating. And my irritation was only compounded by how SB kept trying to shove her down my throat. Alphinaud and the WoL? Yeah, we're friends, and the countless cutscenes and interactions we have had, all served to flesh out that friendship. Lyse? No, stop it, game. I don't like her and I don't know how I'm supposed to trust her after it was revealed that she was lying to me about her identity for a very long time.

You know what would've made Lyse slightly more tolerable? If we had met someone, anyone, who had called her out on her lie. For example, have someone who knew Yda, the real Yda, back when she was alive. Have that someone be one of Yda's friends, and when they find out that their friend was secretly replaced by her little sister, have them be pissed. Because I would just like to see a more realistic reaction to this reveal, please? Shock, betrayal, anger? Anything like that, instead of having everyone, everyone, just accept it and write it off as no big deal.

Anyway, back to Lyse. Who happily continued the Scions' trend of getting nothing accomplished. Who managed to come off as more immature than Alphinaud, despite being close to a decade older than him. Who felt like an extremely unnecessary tagalong in the story, when she should've been the main star. Look at the Sirensong Sea, in which it was Carvallain and Alphinaud who went after us at the end of the dungeon. Lyse and Alisaie weren't the ones afraid of ghost stories, but in the end it was still Alphinaud who bothered to come get us or help us out.

When the story has me actively rewriting it in my head to see how it could be less irritating, I think it has honestly lost me. In the end, I tried to like SB's story, and I went into it with very low expectations, seeing how rushed 3.4-3.5 were, and it still felt average to me.

One major difference is that the HW story was much more focused. It was about the ending of the Dragonsong War. Period.
The SB story (as well as the ARR story previously) is less focused and more sprawling. It is not really a single story, but rather several more-or-less connected shorter stories.

You know, for all the disagreements some of us may have on this board at least many of us can bond over a mutual dislike of Lyse. :p

More seriously, though...the only positive things I have seen people say about her is that she is 'hot'. I've seen her criticised to a similar extent as Minfilia both here and elsewhere. I suspect she'll continue to grate on people's nerves as 4.1 appears to be thrusting her into the spotlight once more.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

You know, for all the disagreements some of us may have on this board at least many of us can bond over a mutual dislike of Lyse. :p

More seriously, though...the only positive things I have seen people say about her is that she is 'hot'. I've seen her criticised to a similar extent as Minfilia both here and elsewhere. I suspect she'll continue to grate on people's nerves as 4.1 appears to be thrusting her into the spotlight once more.

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Yeah she is hot, but so is Alisaie and she is miles less irritating.

Hopefully Lyse will get some development and end up likeable at some point. After all, neither of the Leveilleur twins were all that good in 2.x Most of their development happened in 3.x which Lyse skipped. Currently she is a waste of space, but there is hope for her.

I am not that smart and am sometimes slow to take stuff in, and even though I didn't skip any cutscenes, how did Lyse became the de-facto leader for the Ala Mhigan resistance (and the general Ala Mhigan populace by now)? It just sort of all flew over my head, the MSQ being rushed and all that. Could someone please help me recap why Lyse became the leader again? Raubahn has a claim to leading the resistance and the Ala Mhigans too by birthright, we even saw his old house there.

So what exactly happened between me finishing off HW quest, and sitting beneath a giant statue farming tomestones for Rowena? And What did Lyse have to do with all thay? Why is she even here instead of doing something to carry on Papalymo's legacy?
-Was she royalty?
-Was it because of piggy-backing on the fame of Hien?
-Was it because the East-Trading company wanted to use her as a pawn?
-Was it because seriously no one was "trusted" by anyone else yet, so she's up there "for now", like people not trusting Raubahn because he is affiliated with Ul'dah?
-Was it just to put her up there as a peaceful pretty-face (without actual political power) to "motivate the masses" with her charm? What with lady of freedom and all that?
-Was it because she is the closest we have to putting one of "our people", whom the scions and Eorzeans knew, in power?
-Was it because we needed a disposable scapegoat in case something goes wrong, and a walking inexperienced mistake is the perfect scapegoat?
-Was it because Yugiri pulled some strings and agreed to back her up in case of anything?
-Was it out of respect for Papalymo?
-Was Conrad and Yda really such a big deal that Lyse just walks along and no one even questions whether she is some clone or not?
-Was it because the few elders of the resistance (now one elder less) took a liking to her?
-Or was it seriously because there are no people capable or wanting or free to lead at all? Like some old guy who chose to stay leader in Little Ala Mhigo despite his son being in the Ala Mhigan resistance and asking him to come help? No this doesn't make sense either.
-etc.

Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Raqrie_Tohka

I am not that smart and am sometimes slow to take stuff in, and even though I didn't skip any cutscenes, how did Lyse became the de-facto leader for the Ala Mhigan resistance (and the general Ala Mhigan populace by now)?

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1. She's not the leader of the general Ala Mhigan population, and 2. She's not just a de-facto leader, she is an official leader, because Conrad put her in charge when he bit the big one.

As for why Conrad chose her... because, supposedly, Lyse is a symbol of hope that the people will rally behind.

But really, we all know it's because the writers are trying to make her a main character, and therefore want to sell her as hard as possible without having to put in the time or effort to flesh her out, that they did with Alphinaud.

Never mind that she has no leadership experience or skills, never mind that she has displayed an inability to plan or organise any sort of operation, never mind that there are plenty of other Resistance members that are far more competent than her, never mind that even after being given command (because god knows she didn't exactly take it), she gave no commands or even planned anything out, she's clearly the right choice for Commander!

I throw a lot of flak at Minfilia for being a passive female character who needs the help of men to get anything done (and seriously, she made the Scions stay in the Waking Sands, a place where their friends got massacred, all because of some vague hope of finding her mother? MAYBE YOU'D HAVE MORE LUCK FINDING HER IF YOU ACTUALLY GOT OUT FROM BEHIND THAT DESK!) but I am still willing to concede that she was a better character and leader than Lyse. Yeah, next to Lyse, Minfilia looks competent.

Not only did they squander the hope of fleshing out Yda as she was to fit the role, but immediately saddled their "new" character (and perhaps her "old" accomplices by extension) with a undesirable trait: The desire to lie and specifically keep you in the dark for years.

It's not a new trait, pushing you aside and trying to act and speak for you. But with her its a bridge too far to say she is still the person you have always known.

Well, call me cynical but it certainly seems like they're setting her up to be the primary leader of the entirety of Gyr Abania. I will be pleasantly surprised if that isn't the case but so far it seems like it's heading in that direction. She will probably have a few key allies to 'support' her. The sort that will conveniently throw their full support behind her whilst being far more competent to the point where people start questioning as to why they aren't the primary leader figure instead.

Lyse:


"I never asked for this."

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Originally Posted by Raqrie_Tohka

Lyse:


"I never asked for this."

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Here, a song for her.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Well, call me cynical but it certainly seems like they're setting her up to be the primary leader of the entirety of Gyr Abania. I will be pleasantly surprised if that isn't the case but so far it seems like it's heading in that direction. She will probably have a few key allies to 'support' her. The sort that will conveniently throw their full support behind her whilst being far more competent to the point where people start questioning as to why they aren't the primary leader figure instead.

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Which opens another can of worms as we need someone to represent the Scions' interests in Gridania.

I'm gonna hazard a guess and say that 4.x will bring a large shakeup to the status quo and changes who leads what and belongs to which organization. Mostly because Raubahn and Lyse are on the move.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Not only did they squander the hope of fleshing out Yda as she was to fit the role, but immediately saddled their "new" character (and perhaps her "old" accomplices by extension) with a undesirable trait: The desire to lie and specifically keep you in the dark for years.

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This isn't the first time the Scions have betrayed our trust: 3.4 showed Urianger is perfectly willing to throw us into a deathmatch without so much as a warning, because... convenience, I guess. God knows.

And there are some very vocal people insisting that the Scions see the WoL as a true friend and all that jazz, but when they pull stuff like this, I find that hard to believe.

Remember that moment in HW, when the Elezen Dream Team was discussing how to get rid of Ravana? Estinien called Alphinaud out on how casual he was in just throwing us at the problem, and Alphinaud's HW short story, as well as his subsequent characterisation, showed that he took that lesson to heart.

The rest of the Scions have yet to even be called out on this sort of behaviour, let alone try to treat us the way Alphinaud does, and coupled with the way they're handled, Minfilia's big speech about "I hope we will become family" that she spews, all the way back when we first met them all in 2.0, comes off as heavy-handed manipulation.

With all this in mind, it's small wonder that the writers seem to be looking for excuses to write them out of the story at any possible point. I honestly think that the story gets better when the Scions aren't around, though.

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Originally Posted by Mysterysword

With all this in mind, it's small wonder that the writers seem to be looking for excuses to write them out of the story at any possible point. I honestly think that the story gets better when the Scions aren't around, though.

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THIS. All we need are the Leveilleur twins and guest stars that are appropriate for the region like Estinien or Hien. and maybe Tataru. She might be evil but she is good at dealing with non-combat issues.

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Originally Posted by Balipu

and maybe Tataru.

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always Tataru

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Originally Posted by Balipu

Which opens another can of worms as we need someone to represent the Scions' interests in Gridania.

I'm gonna hazard a guess and say that 4.x will bring a large shakeup to the status quo and changes who leads what and belongs to which organization. Mostly because Raubahn and Lyse are on the move.

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As far as representatives are concerned, they could either introduce a new character entirely or simply promote one of the background Scions into a more prominent position like they did with Arenvald and Riol. It was a pleasant surprise to see the former show up in Gyr Abania and the latter to appear in the RDM quest chain.

As for the status quo, I do hope you have the right of it. Lolorito, Nanamo, Raubahn and Lyse all being involved in the MSQ's for 4.1 certainly leaves a lot of potential.

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Originally Posted by Mysterysword

This isn't the first time the Scions have betrayed our trust: 3.4 showed Urianger is perfectly willing to throw us into a deathmatch without so much as a warning, because... convenience, I guess. God knows.

And there are some very vocal people insisting that the Scions see the WoL as a true friend and all that jazz, but when they pull stuff like this, I find that hard to believe.

Remember that moment in HW, when the Elezen Dream Team was discussing how to get rid of Ravana? Estinien called Alphinaud out on how casual he was in just throwing us at the problem, and Alphinaud's HW short story, as well as his subsequent characterisation, showed that he took that lesson to heart.

The rest of the Scions have yet to even be called out on this sort of behaviour, let alone try to treat us the way Alphinaud does, and coupled with the way they're handled, Minfilia's big speech about "I hope we will become family" that she spews, all the way back when we first met them all in 2.0, comes off as heavy-handed manipulation.

With all this in mind, it's small wonder that the writers seem to be looking for excuses to write them out of the story at any possible point. I honestly think that the story gets better when the Scions aren't around, though.

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To be fair, the Warrior of Light willingly throws himself into such situations. Often without an objective view or knowing the fully story. This is the case with both the MSQ's and various side quests. I do agree, though, that there should be more backlash when the Scions screw up or lie to the Warrior of Light. Even if it's done for the 'greater good' it doesn't feel great to have a supposed friend betray one's trust or abuse their kind nature or power. Yuguri screwed up pretty badly by attempting to assassinate Zenos in Yanxia but received very little in the way of backlash. Things did work out pretty well but that rested on Zenos choosing not to just casually slaughter any of those present. He was certainly capable of doing so.

Which, unfortunately, ties into my main criticism of the MSQ's - everything just ends up working out perfectly one way or another for the protagonists in the vast majority of occasions and even if someone screws up there's rarely any real, lasting consequences. We don't even see much in the way of rivalry or distaste between our allies - they agree on pretty much everything. Nero and Cid are a refreshing exception to that. It's possible for characters to work together out of necessity but not actually like each other much - so seeing more of that would help shakes things up a little.

To be fair to the Scions, before we showed up, whenever a primal showed up, people would die because they were tempered. And other members of the Grand Companies fought and killed comrades. Then we come along and, miracle of miracles, we come along and drop primal deaths to almost nothing. Why wouldn't your plan for any primal after Ifrit be anything other than have the Warrior of Light fight it. It keeps the fighting force of the city-states intact, whenever we enter the battle field morale goes up, and normal people don't live in fear of being tempered by the primals. It's a tactical decision that, while stupid with us contending with primals of unknown strength, has merit.

As for the lying part, I'm guessing you're talking about the whole Lyse is Yda thing. Question, what did it change? Lyse wasn't ready to be herself yet. She had to be Yda because she didn't know what she was supposed to do when her sister died and she has, what she believes is, no talent or power that makes her special. She needed to be Yda until she could come to terms with the reality of the situation and finally cast off the mask to be her own person, rather than someone who isn't even able to help the people that her sister knew and maybe even cared about.

And in addition, why are all of you on your high horse, perhaps you have forgotten that time where we DIDN'T HAVE THE BLESSING OF LIGHT and told no one. We were talking and dragging around the father of all dragon-kind and we said NOTHING. In a city-state at war with the most vengeful of the brood. I'm not calling out the Scions for lying or not telling us everything when we kept that a secret from them. Trust is a two-way street.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Everything just ends up working out perfectly one way or another for the protagonists in the vast majority of occasions and even if someone screws up there's rarely any real, lasting consequences.

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Perhaps you have forgotten the events of 2.55. We were branded a traitor to Ul'dah and were forced out of the city. The only reason that worked out is because the little shite in charge of the Monetarists was making moves in the background, with his almost comically large amount of coin, deciding that killing not only the flame general, but making his execution a trap to kill the Warrior of Light, more destabilizing to Ul'dah than beneficial, and I just realized that we might owe that shite a favor.

The Lyse thing just seems like a forced way to get us to care about Ala Mhigo, since they had been portrayed as insufferable jerkasses and whiny nationalists.

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Originally Posted by Omury

Why wouldn't your plan for any primal after Ifrit be anything other than have the Warrior of Light fight it.

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Because the WoL is one person who will presumably die one day, whether of old age or other causes, and this is a short-term solution to a long-term problem? Also because it shows that an entire organisation dedicated to fighting primals is apparently so incompetent that they can't even do the work of one person.

In-game lore shows that it is possible to fight primals without the Echo and without being tempered; you need to be quick enough to dodge the primal's aether blasts. With this in mind, here's a two-step solution to the primal problem.

1. Lure primal out to a certain spot, preferably with people who will be quick enough to dodge aether blasts.
2. Fire cannonballs at primal until it's dead.

Doesn't require you to have the Echo. Yet they couldn't be bothered to come up with something that simple before we showed up?

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Originally Posted by Omury

As for the lying part, I'm guessing you're talking about the whole Lyse is Yda thing. Question, what did it change? Lyse wasn't ready to be herself yet. She had to be Yda because she didn't know what she was supposed to do when her sister died and she has, what she believes is, no talent or power that makes her special. She needed to be Yda until she could come to terms with the reality of the situation and finally cast off the mask to be her own person, rather than someone who isn't even able to help the people that her sister knew and maybe even cared about.

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I'm not sure what change you're talking about here. My objection to this plot point is that 1. It's screwed up to lie to somebody you call a friend, about your identity, and 2. It is especially screwed up to assume a dead person's identity and cover up their death, again, to their friends. And I'm presuming that Yda had other friends beyond the Scions, and those other friends were all lied to for years. Lyse's reasons for doing what she did arguably makes it even more messed up, because there are plenty of people out there who lose beloved family members, who also "don't know who they want to be", but don't decide to masquerade as a dead person for several years.

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Originally Posted by Omury

And in addition, why are all of you on your high horse, perhaps you have forgotten that time where we DIDN'T HAVE THE BLESSING OF LIGHT and told no one. We were talking and dragging around the father of all dragon-kind and we said NOTHING.

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1. We told Minfilia about this, in the Scion meeting right after we finish Keeper of the Lake.
2. She told us to keep it quiet.
3. We respected her wishes.

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Originally Posted by Mysterysword

In-game lore shows that it is possible to fight primals without the Echo and without being tempered; you need to be quick enough to dodge the primal's aether blasts. With this in mind, here's a two-step solution to the primal problem.

1. Lure primal out to a certain spot, preferably with people who will be quick enough to dodge aether blasts.
2. Fire cannonballs at primal until it's dead.

Doesn't require you to have the Echo. Yet they couldn't be bothered to come up with something that simple before we showed up?

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While I certainly can't disagree with all of your post, I cannot necessarily agree with this part. Namely because several of those tactics have been shown in game, and have rather mixed effectiveness. If it was as simple as using physical force to defeat them, then the Garlean Empire, with their advanced artillery, (presumably) tempering immune warmachina, and incredible amount of forces would not have much trouble against them. But instead, they consider them so terrifying that they are committed to ridiculous lengths (genocide, Ultima Weapon, Resonant etc) to try and stop them. Indeed, they consider Primals and other Eikons to be the one thing standing in the way of their conquest. Similarly, there's an example of that sort of strategy working with the first time the Company of Heroes fought Leviathan, but it was a complete failure the second time around, with the Lominsan fleet being shattered. When primals can cause massive landslides, tidal waves and other horrors, physical force in a traditional sense like that isn't always a valid option. Even a weapon as powerful as an Agrius class battlecruiser or the combined military forces of the Immortal Flames is quite often not enough to deal with a primal. Specialized tactics like the kind the scions use is often more effective.