Yoshi-P on Tenacity

I feel Tenacity is a great secondary stat. You may not want to meld for it, but it is awesome having it on gear. A constant increase with a constant mitigation. May not be a lot, but its always there and not RNG oriented. It helps, consistantly. Which is way more then we can say for Parry.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

first off

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I thought savage was coming out tomorrow.

Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

I thought savage was coming out tomorrow.

Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn

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Your point being? Savage coming out tomorrow has nothing to do with the argument I gave about tenacity not being trash

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

Your point being? Savage coming out tomorrow has nothing to do with the argument I gave about tenacity not being trash

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(The joke is you were savage af.)

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

(The joke is you were savage af.)

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*wooosh*

I totally missed your point :p I blame the removal of accuracy for that!

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

*wooosh*

I totally missed your point :p I blame the removal of accuracy for that!

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I have noticed I can't seem to (directly) hit anything once hitting 70!

Would you mind linking any data or experiment that show that crit scales better than direct hit? Everything I've seen thus far seem to suggest that direct hit scales better than crit until you can get around 3k crit.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

so 160 DH for 1% damage up, and 200 tenacity for 1% damage dealt up, damage taken down, and heal received.

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This needs to be upvoted!
There's a lot of misinterpretation on Tenacity over the other secondaries.
According to current theorycrafting, Tenacity is only slightly less potent than Determination and can even match it depending if you're able to reach the next stat threshold with the melds available.
DH is going to be the best DPS sub but Tenacity isn't far behind and has additional utility which may/may not be valuable to your group.
I'd say 2.5% damage reduces and healing received isn't all that bad of a trade off for 0.65% DPS loss.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

Would you mind linking any data or experiment that show that crit scales better than direct hit? Everything I've seen thus far seem to suggest that direct hit scales better than crit until you can get around 3k crit.

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it doesn't. With that said, since crit has a non-null base value for a tank, unlike DH, you'll get more consistency from more crit than from adding DH imo.

I may very well be wrong, but the only thing that would change is the order of melds, making tenacity and DH more desirable than crit. And since the trade-off of tenacity vs DH is neglictible, you would rather meld more tenacity for the increased survivability. Which would leave the choice between DH and crit only on the few pieces not capped in tenacity

Crit has nonzero base proc rate, but per point crit scales way slower than direct hit, something like 20-30x slower if I remember dervy's post right. Crit point increases both the proc rate and damage so it'll overtake direct hit (or any other linear stat like det/ten) once it grows big enough, and so far the only post I've seen about it says that crit won't overtake direct hit until around 3k.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

snip...

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I know you wern't ignoring it but I think the heal received is a significant factor too. It means bigger regens, and bigger adlo/noct shields. The more I think about it the more tenacity becomes a scary stat. When a tank buster comes in not only are you taking x% less damage from it, but you also have an x% larger shield, and you also get healed up faster. Even outside savage that damage reduction and healing received will help a lot in dungeons. At first i was kind of down on tenacity but with your math I'm thinking it's actually quite a powerful stat.

I keep reading about how DH, Crit, DET and/or TEN scale etc, but 9 times out of 10 the discussion centers around damage dealt, and the discussion proceeds along the lines of "Tenacity doesn't scale as well as DH, Crit or DET, so it is trash.".

IMHO that's wrong because you are discussing only one third of the impact of Tenacity as if it were the whole. It's not.

If TEN scales at about 200 points = 1% (the best analysis I could find suggests this), then right now I have an almost 6% dmg buff up 100% of the time; in addition (if scaling estimates are right) I have an almost 6% damage mitigation buff with 100% uptime and a similarly scaled healing buff any time I cast Clemency. If Savage gear allows more than one t6 meld and advance melding of t5 materia, then Yoshi's statement about the impact of Tenacity could easily be on point. Perhaps, we could be looking at anything from 1600 to almost 2000 Tenacity with fully tricked out savage gear. 8-10% damage buff, 8-10 % mitigation buff and 8-10% healing buff, all with 100% up time. I don't see how DH, DET or Crit can compete with that.

How the secondaries are evaluated within the game engine, the order in which they are applied and how could magnify that impact still further.

With DET also affecting healing, and Skill Speed impacting the speed with which skills come back as well as the damage of auto attacks, it seems to be that the strongest overall combination of melds would be TEN>DET>SS. That's probably not the strongest straight DPS combination, but the overall impact on tanks would be greatest starting with Tenacity - as it should be. Of course if some players want to continue melding Str or whatever to maximize their DPS, that's fine, but it seems as if players focusing on TEN will be only 2-3 % behind in terms of DPS, and yet have superior passive mitigation and healing capability.

Since we are tanks, I'd think that mitigation would figure more highly in the discussion. Apparently not.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

IMHO that's wrong because you are discussing only one third of the impact of Tenacity as if it were the whole. It's not.

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Welcome to FFXIV where people will inevitably call you stupid for mentioning anything else than "DPS gain"...

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Welcome to FFXIV where people will inevitably call you stupid for mentioning anything else than "DPS gain"...

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Because everything factors into raid DPS, and that's how it is all measured. Mitigation on the tank is a DPS gain for the healers, for example.

The relevance of Tenacity's defensive boosts is entirely dependent on how the boost to Healer DPS from it compares to the difference to a pure offensive stat like DH.

Similarly, look at tank stances. Staying in them for a whole boss fight is a raid DPS loss. It's a gain to drop stance after establishing hate. A lot of math and testing went into that.

Right now, it LOOKS like Tenacity would be in a similar boat. But, until we have more numbers and logs from Savage farms, it's hard to tell.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

Because everything factors into raid DPS, and that's how it is all measured. Mitigation on the tank is a DPS gain for the healers, for example.

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And it's way too "easy" to keep a DPS-stance-full-STR-acc-ignoring-tenacity-tank alive.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Of course if some players want to continue melding Str or whatever to maximize their DPS, that's fine, but it seems as if players focusing on TEN will be only 2-3 % behind in terms of DPS, and yet have superior passive mitigation and healing capability.

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Tenacity won't replace str melds on vit accs though, they won't even come close since 125 str is around 6-7% of the total str we have, while 200 tenacity from 5 melds on the right side gives you 1% dps and 1% mitigation.

The benefit of stacking tenacity will depend on how much we can get, since you need to actually make the healers cast less gcd heals on you to make the extra mitigation convertible into healer dps gain. I'd wait for some more tests to be done on it before concluding how good/bad it is, but at the very least it doesn't look bad considering even its dps component is trailing behind det.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

And it's way too "easy" to keep a DPS-stance-full-STR-acc-ignoring-tenacity-tank alive.

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It's not that easy to pull it off consistently unless you have healers spamming heals on you all the time. If you make a mistake in mitigation you'd easily drop below what an auto attack could damage you, so the room for error is quite small. It also requires some sort of "cheesing" to have enough mitigation for the whole fight: using lakshmi's vril outside chanchala to mitigate tank buster, while using hallowed ground or holmgang to mitigate the chanchala tank buster, breaking susano's sword before you need to pick up the orbs, so you can save your cds for mitigating auto attacks in the later phase. It's possible yeah, but I wouldn't call it easy. You need skilled tanks and healers, some coordination for mitigation/heals, and high group dps as well.

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

I know you wern't ignoring it but I think the heal received is a significant factor too. It means bigger regens, and bigger adlo/noct shields. The more I think about it the more tenacity becomes a scary stat. When a tank buster comes in not only are you taking x% less damage from it, but you also have an x% larger shield, and you also get healed up faster. Even outside savage that damage reduction and healing received will help a lot in dungeons. At first i was kind of down on tenacity but with your math I'm thinking it's actually quite a powerful stat.

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Hmm maybe it needs more testing? From what someone said it didn't seem to increase healing at all?

http://i.imgur.com/AfDIl3Q.png

People are saying here it increase self-healing, which makes me think Clemency. This test is probably flawed compared to this one, but it does show that Tenacity affects Clemency.

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

Hmm maybe it needs more testing? From what someone said it didn't seem to increase healing at all?

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Could be bugged, I believe it is supposed to increase healing received.

tanks should stay to their roles as tanks and quit trying to be dps. they should cap their dex which increase dodge ability and the new tenacity generates aggro better than strength ever did and theyn should stop stacking crit and trying to be dps they need to focus on making heals job easier not trying to pull everything around then blame a healer because they are squishy with no det to make the heals work better for them. if they want to dps then go get a dps class. Don't try and whine when you cant be both with one class. I play a tank and have no problem holding agro and my healers have no problem keeping me healed. if your routines are correct and you have your gears set to play tank instead of being a trying to play dps then all would be better in game. leave the dps to the ones that play a dps class.

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Originally Posted by Aedria

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The OF has gone so far down the rabbit hole I can't even tell if this is a joke post. ; _ ;

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

The OF has gone so far down the rabbit hole I can't even tell if this is a joke post. ; _ ;

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Some people really just don't care about playing well. They have a vision and want to play by that vision.

It's a mindset that works great in single-player RPG's, but not so well in MMO's.

And we know, mathematically, what optimal play looks like once the savage raids start getting farmed. That's also a hard thing for people to swallow.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

To me it seems that with current gear and melds the max amount of Tenacity we can have is a 3-5% boost/ mitigation making it almost as effective a half a rampart with 100% up time. It it really shows its weight as it scales, and presuming we continue to be able to add significant amounts via melding, it could be interesting. Numerically though, they have to be careful of how it scales so that it doesn't become pointless to stack in future, or ultimately over powerful.

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You can get 5% right now with barely any melding at all. Around 1500 tenacity you'll be right at 5%. Easily attainable just through gear.

As for DH ... it's the best scaling stat for every non healer right now. While tanks won't be seeing higher numbers there, it is still the best stat to take. We get enough Crit, Det, and (lol) Skill Speed from gear. And yes any tank going full skill speed, and I have seen some, is laughable.

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Originally Posted by Ariyn

You can get 5% right now with barely any melding at all. Around 1500 tenacity you'll be right at 5%. Easily attainable just through gear.

As for DH ... it's the best scaling stat for every non healer right now. While tanks won't be seeing higher numbers there, it is still the best stat to take. We get enough Crit, Det, and (lol) Skill Speed from gear. And yes any tank going full skill speed, and I have seen some, is laughable.

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Tenacity is 180-220 per 1% damage increase and mitigation, unless more was found out, wearing full fending gear gives you a 5% right off the bat. An additional 520 tenacity is like 2% increase.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...city_datadump/

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

It's not that easy to pull it off consistently unless you have healers spamming heals on you all the time.

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I know it's not that easy, simply because healing is not easy even with turtle tanks. That's why I used quotation mark. Yet still, the difference is too small.
Pure tanking tools should have a far greater effect since it's the only thing they're good for.

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Originally Posted by Aedria

tanks should stay to their roles as tanks and quit trying to be dps. they should cap their dex which increase dodge ability and the new tenacity generates aggro better than strength ever did and theyn should stop stacking crit and trying to be dps they need to focus on making heals job easier not trying to pull everything around then blame a healer because they are squishy with no det to make the heals work better for them. if they want to dps then go get a dps class. Don't try and whine when you cant be both with one class. I play a tank and have no problem holding agro and my healers have no problem keeping me healed. if your routines are correct and you have your gears set to play tank instead of being a trying to play dps then all would be better in game. leave the dps to the ones that play a dps class.

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Enjoy never clearing any relevant Savage content. The game literally REQUIRES you to maximize damage as a tank (and as a healer) in order to clear content at its release. Did you ever think how much damage you're "mitigating" by killing something minutes faster? I think most high-level healers will very much appreciate that.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

Some people really just don't care about playing well. They have a vision and want to play by that vision.

It's a mindset that works great in single-player RPG's, but not so well in MMO's.

And we know, mathematically, what optimal play looks like once the savage raids start getting farmed. That's also a hard thing for people to swallow.

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Apparently what's hard to swallow is that farm status means "optimal play" makes almost no difference.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

I know it's not that easy, simply because healing is not easy even with turtle tanks. That's why I used quotation mark. Yet still, the difference is too small.
Pure tanking tools should have a far greater effect since it's the only thing they're good for.

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Maximizing both the tanks and the healers' dps is nowhere near as easy as turtle tanking or healing a turtle tank. 12k additional hp, 20% passive mitigation or 25% passive hp boost and access to 20% mitigation with 40%+ uptime give you a lot of room for errors both on the tanks' side and on the healers' side. If you think the difference is small you're welcome to try getting susano/lakshmi run in full str gear and 100% dps stance uptime while allowing your healers to get 95% percentile dps.

I get that you don't like maximizing dps as a tank, but shrugging tank dps optimization as something not much harder than doing your average runs with a turtle tank and a perma healer is just laughably ignorant, especially if you probably haven't even tried it.

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Originally Posted by DacienSanderon

Apparently what's hard to swallow is that farm status means "optimal play" makes almost no difference.

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Optimal play only comes into discussion if your group is interested in doing speedkills or some unusual composition runs. For your usual weekly clears you'd probably not take risky optimizations since wiping would just make you spend more time than slower clears.

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Originally Posted by Dizzy_Derp

WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT. Tenacity is shit. Its scaling at 200 ten equaling a 1% increase. Dh is calling at 37 for a 1% increase. GET THAT 1% PER FKN MELD. More than any other secondary. Anything you gain from tenacity is not enough to be felt, go do some research on it. Even if it did help healers (Which it doesnt, at all) wouldn't matter, dh is too strong and tanks do way more damage that healers for it to be a thing to sacrifive dps.

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Lol@raging over his own ignorance.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

I get that you don't like maximizing dps as a tank, but shrugging tank dps optimization as something not much harder than doing your average runs with a turtle tank and a perma healer is just laughably ignorant, especially if you probably haven't even tried it.

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There's still something you totally ignore. Having tanking tools that are useless is just bad design. Why the hell Tenacity even exists if it doesn't make any noticeable difference ?
Another thing. The purpose of a group is to clear the raid. If maximizing DPS is mandatory to clear, and frankly, judging by how virulent the community is, it seems to be, then it doesn't matter how easy or hard it is, since it's mandatory.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

There's still something you totally ignore. Having tanking tools that are useless is just bad design. Why the hell Tenacity even exists if it doesn't make any noticeable difference ?
Another thing. The purpose of a group is to clear the raid. If maximizing DPS is mandatory to clear, and frankly, judging by how virulent the community is, it seems to be, then it doesn't matter how easy or hard it is, since it's mandatory.

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Look, I never said it was good design that we're even allowed to use last expansion's dps accs or ignore our tank stances completely, or that dps optimization is mandatory to clear. As I mentioned in my reply to dacien, optimization is mostly for speedkills, it's not the norm even for your weekly farms. I just don't get how you could call it "easy" or not much harder than runs with turtle tanks if you've never even attempted it.

I won't insult you or call you bad tank simply because you don't do speedkills or optimize tank/group dps, but I can't say I like it when someone who never does speedkills say that it's easy, considering the amount of effort and time people put into figuring out those optimal rotations and strategies. Same thing for people saying tanking in full slaying accs and 0 tank stance uptime is easy without even trying it. If you haven't even tried it you don't even know if you can do it lol. How do you know that you'd be any different from those "bad" tanks the forums complain about, those "meta sheeps" who put on slaying gear, pull in dps stance and get mashed by a tank buster 10 sec into the pull. Yeah sure they're probably biting more than what they can chew, but at least they have tried and you haven't. They now know how hard/easy it is, you don't.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

it doesn't. With that said, since crit has a non-null base value for a tank, unlike DH, you'll get more consistency from more crit than from adding DH imo.

I may very well be wrong, but the only thing that would change is the order of melds, making tenacity and DH more desirable than crit. And since the trade-off of tenacity vs DH is neglictible, you would rather meld more tenacity for the increased survivability. Which would leave the choice between DH and crit only on the few pieces not capped in tenacity

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Crit increases your critical damage and your crit chance. So it will scale your damage like:

(Crit chance)(Base damage*Crit modifier)

That means it will grow like a parabola since both the crit chance and modifier are linear functions of the crit stat. It will scale much, much slower at low levels and then scale much faster at high amounts. Direct Hit scales linearly so it will always be the same value=>% DPS increase it is now.