Getting Kicked as a Tank from Dungeons for Power Pulls! No more for me!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Malzian

LoL... Yanno, I've actually had healers bitch at me me for popping HG when it seemed like they were about to let me die, "HG? Really? What, you don't trust my healing or something? I'm insulted."

---

I sometimes leave it a bit late because I try to trust the healers...and we wipe. Lately I've been getting ready to use it if my HP drops below 10k, then I do use it if it goes below 5k. Last night I had a SUPER close call. 300 HP in Bardam's Mettle and I popped it just before the hit that would have killed me registered.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MrsFluffyButt

1. Levelling dungeons are generally a no no when it comes to large pulls.

---

Ever since the rework on the classes in SB, you'de be surprised how many mobs you can actually pull in leveling dungeons. You can do pretty crazy pulls now as long as the healer only has the tank to heal.

Don't speed run/don't do big pulls and you won't get kicked.

I have been 70 on my DK for a very long time now and have never been kicked on any roulette, I don't ask parties though if they are good with big or small pulls, I just start with the first pull in a dungeon to gauge the group DPS and healing then go from there accordingly. Always get lots of commendations and complements. What you are going through right now I have never seen before and that sucks man, sorry to hear it. I am so confident on all content on my DK though that there should be no problems in PUG groups. That said though when it comes to all of us results may vary depending on server and cluster.

if the DDs don't know how to AoE (Fire IV when the tank pulled 6 mobs) or don't bring the skills to support a such a situation (Goad, Refresh, Tactician) there is no point in pulling so many mobs. it just puts unnecessary stress on tanks and healers.

I feel that Stormblood content was NOT meant to be speedrun.

Oftentimes there are barriers between trash pulls that force you to kill the trash before moving on, and other times said trash mobs hit like trucks. I'm kinda thinking that SE doesn't WANT us to mass-pull, and I can kinda understand why. It is kinda stressful for healers. Now, instead, they gave us huge enemy pulls that are meant to be all pulled at once (such as the cargo crates in Castrum Abania).

There's no real reason to speedrun these dungeons, and if mass pulls are done, I would say two groups max unless maybe you have a WHM.


One thing I'm getting kinda tired of, and I know it ain't their fault, is seeing SCHs in a group. If you see a SCH, please don't mass pull, regardless if they tell you they can handle it. 99% of the time, they can't. No offense to the players who play SCH, but the class has been nerfed so hard I simply don't trust SCH healers anymore. They can't keep me alive whatsoever, and I am spamming Clemency just to stay alive.

I had to do Castrum Abania for the first time with a SCH healer, and they could barely keep me alive even with me popping cooldowns as often as I could, and me spamming Clemency like it's candy and that's to say nothing about the final boss.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ErryK

Though I think most people are missing the point of the OP... he got kicked for asking if healer wanted big pulls, and the healer said yes, then the healer fails to meet the healing requirements for the pull... or at least, that's one side to the story, cuz we have no clue how OP rotated his CDs. But in all honesty, pulls rely on all three roles at their best, DPS need to be really good at killing things in an appropriate amount of time, healer needs to heal the right amount of HP, perhaps add in some DPS, and the tank needs to rotate their cooldowns.
Big pulls are a team effort.

---

we do not know what happen between the wipe of big pull and the vote kick


I over estimate my def/healer cure ability/DPS outpull and over pull from time to time in DF

so far I have only see 1 rage quit in all my failure over pull

We are too soon to make any judgement, at least OP is trying to make himself look like staying on the good side

I have no idea what conversation between OP and the rest of group

but from my experience in DF, i say there definitely more than just over pull-->wipe--->Vote kick

recently there are lots of friction between tank and heal in random DF dungeon, probably the expansion making both heal and tank rare in DF

e.g. yesterday night i was doing leveling roulette, got into The Aery, we lose the healer before we even start, soon a JIP healer join, the tank rush to big pull the

healer is not yet ready, and eventually the tank die, the fight start between tank and healer

it happening more often with 4.0 introduce

I am not saying OP is acting this way, but we can never be sure since we could never know what really happen

but I couldn't stop having doubt there are more than what OP type when he/she got kick so many times

To verify what OP said, DRK has taken some REALLY hard knocks to their survivability. What used t be an acceptable large pull in 3.X is going to tax the healer much harder in 4.0

DRK cooldowns:
Shadowskin [15% Mitigation] -> Replaced with Rampart [20% Mitigation] (+5% mitigation)
Shadow wall [30% Mitigation] -> Unchanged**
Dark Mind [30% magic mitigation] -> Unchanged
Dark Dance [20% parry, 20% evasion] -> Replaced with Anticipation [30% parry] (-20% evasion, +10% parry)
Dark Passenger [Line AoE Blind] -> Cost increased too much to be viable.
Reprisal [10% damage debuff] -> Duration reduced by 75%, recast time increased 200%
Delirium [10% INT debuff] -> Removed*
Souleater [Lifesteal on hit] -> Lifesteal reduced.

*There is a new namesake skill called Delirium, but it's function is completely unrelated
**THis is 10% less than the PLD equivalent

DRK role skills:
Bloodbath [Hits steal life] -> Removed
Foresight [20% defence) -> Removed

All of these small changes when added together, work out to a considerable loss of mitigation over time. The ONLY reason DRK manages to keep it's shit together at level 70, is because the addition of The Blackest Night, which is a 20% overshield on a 15 second cooldown. However this is a bandaid at best, and does nothing to help survivability in sub-70 content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RyuujinZERO

DRK cooldowns:
Shadowskin [15% Mitigation] -> Replaced with Rampart [20% Mitigation] (+5% mitigation)
Shadow wall [30% Mitigation] -> Unchanged**
Dark Mind [30% magic mitigation] -> Unchanged
Dark Dance [20% parry, 20% evasion] -> Replaced with Anticipation [30% parry] (-20% evasion, +10% parry)
Dark Passenger [Line AoE Blind] -> Cost increased too much to be viable.
Reprisal [10% damage debuff] -> Duration reduced by 75%, recast time increased 200%
Delirium [10% INT debuff] -> Removed*
Souleater [Lifesteal on hit] -> Lifesteal reduced.

*There is a new namesake skill called Delirium, but it's function is completely unrelated
**THis is 10% less than the PLD equivalent

DRK role skills:
Bloodbath [Hits steal life] -> Removed
Foresight [20% defence) -> Removed

---

did you even play DRK in HW? :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

did you even play DRK in HW? :rolleyes:

---

...uh... yes?

It's been my main since shortly after HW launched. Did you?

Just look at the numbers for yourself. There's reductions across across the board, coupled with reduced life-steal. That can ONLY add up to less survivability. We pretty much completely lost the DD/DP evasion combo, the loss of Bloodbath greatly reduced the effectiveness of AoE-Life steals on trash pulls. We gained extra magic mitigation through changes to Rampart and Shadow Wall but, so did PLD and WAR (And they have stronger mitigation to begin with), and we lost old Delirium which provided extra magic mitigation of a sort.

The QoL changes to MP recovery were nice at least and made MP management easier I guess?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheRealMadruck

So after leveling my Dark Knight and Warrior to 70, over the past 2 weeks since the launch of SB I have been kicked from leveling duty finders constantly with being synced down to max stats on gear with healers in premade groups kicking me because they are too newbish to read on how in SB tanks are now taking more damage and healers had their heals reduced!
Which is it? Constantly, 20 or 3-4 times? You edited this part but now I dunno anymore. 3-4 time is not constantly.
Over the past week alone I have counted 20 times in which I ask prior to dungeons if they can handle these type of pulls, them saying yes then come to find out that they cant and they blame me while I am rotating my CD correctly and using all my defense abilities correctly that ends up them kicking me! Now there are times in which I do human error, but nowhere near the 3-4 times I have been kicked to say it was always my fault when they clearly stated they could handle it.
If the healers can't deal, then pull what you think everyone can handle regardless of how the healers feel. SCH have a harder time keeping up btw.
So bottomline, for all you Healers out there wanting or claiming to be able to handle Power Pulls....if you end up in a dungeon with me.....its not going to happen! You can thank all the players that soured that for me since it comes down to them not being able to do something basic like read on what changes came to SB with them having the idea we are still in HW! Sad....so very sad!
DRK has the worst survivability of the 3 tanks. Also low level roulettes are a terrible place to do a huge pull esp as a DRK.

*EDIT* After viewing the posts below I came to realize I accidently put 20 times which was the number times I asked if they were good with power pulls...but actually being kicked only occurred around 3-4 times in the past 2 weeks. My apologizes for not clarifying that!

---

Bolded and coloured my responses.
Also, it is very, VERY rare that tanks will be kicked.
Something just doesn't add up to me. There must've of been
some context or an argument or someone was being a jerk somewhere in there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Only if you don't know how to do them, otherwise they're a blast.

---

I see a bunch of new leafs in Low level's. I wouldn't do it to them.
Think about our baby leafies!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RyuujinZERO

snip

---

So most of the removed ones are the ones that don't matter at all when doing big pulls LOL.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RyuujinZERO

...uh... yes?

---

Then why did you list untraited numbers for shadowskin and dark dance?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

Then why did you list untraited numbers for shadowskin and dark dance?

---

I forgot the original values for those, it WAS 4 or 5 months between me playing in HW and playing SB, had a hiatus. Had to dig them off deprecated wiki pages (I thought those numbers sounded too low). I also don't see how this helps disprove my argument, if there numbers are even larger traited then that just represents an even bigger loss of mitigation between HW and SB.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AlphaSonic

So most of the removed ones are the ones that don't matter at all when doing big pulls LOL.

---

Dark Dance + Dark Passenger didn't matter on big pulls? - That was one of the single most potent mitigation tricks against large amounts of fluff damage. Dark dance (traitted) was like 30% evasion I want to say? - Plus Blindness, and parry, you were looking at >40% reduction in incoming damage across large sample sizes (ie. auto attack spam)

I play PLD & SCH. As SCH, I usually don't say anything, and I've been able to keep tanks alive, but big pulls are annoying to me if the tank is taking heavy damage. Single target spam curing isn't fun to me, plus I usually have to burn through aetherflow stacks to use the strong heals (Lustrate).

As PLD, I usually don't do big pulls unless I notice a couple of things:
1. DPS is killing super fast
2. I'm barely taking any damage

^These two usually only happen in Lv50/Lv60 dungeons when my iLevel is way above what is needed.

I've never once told a tank to power pull as a healer. I used it say "We can try, but if it goes bad we'll need to scale back."

But since SB, I usually say, "Please no." If they do it anyway, and if things go badly, I'll ask them not do to it again. If they do, I'll tell them I'll drop if they do it again.

"Kicked from duty in a premade" except, you can't kick someone from the duty if you are premade.

You're the tank. Don't ask if they can "handle a power pull." Do a pull that's appropriate for a leveling dungeon. That's two packs at most.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Malzian

"HG? Really? What, you don't trust my healing or something? I'm insulted."

---

"Good to know. I don't, FYI." Admittedly my favorite part of using Holmgang is burst healing myself for more than half my HP in a split second.

I don't know man. Judging from the thread a while back where you said macro for monk is feasible while others disagreed with you, and you kept going on about it. So I think that you might have some weird ideas or somethings during the pull that got you kicked?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Baci

Doing the biggest possible pulls in leveling dungeons is stupid anyway

---

no its not every dungeon should be done in 20 mins i powerpull everything some healers just need to learn how to heal better

I note the OP didn't exactly give the full lineup of DPS+Healer jobs as well as the instances involved where a kick was instigated.

Only time I wanted to lose our tank was in Dzamael Darkhold, where the tank decided to pull ALL of the hippogryph mobs with a monk and dragoon (me) as DPS. I'm sure the healer was having fits. After both DPS dying to the AoE's of the trash mobs, the tank 'rethought' large pulls in that instance.

I had the OP in a dungeon the other day. We were in the Aery, the healer had ilvl 90-ish gear mostly and he complained about it the whole run despite the healer keeping him alive. They argued a lot, we got to the last boss, then he demanded we either kick the healer, kick him, or sit there and wait for the dungeon to time out. The healer told him to just finish the run because they didn't want to hurt us (the dps), he (the OP) refused.

The healer really should've had better gear, but they were getting the job done. And when he decided to hold the group hostage we decided to just kick him. Luckily we got a replacement tank instantly and cleared the dungeon. OP, you should work on your attitude.

I've never got kicked for pulling too little or too much. Generally, if I'm not pulling much it's because I don't know the dungeon. I have healers ask if I will pull more, if they feel I'm not pulling enough. If I'm pulling too much, then I know because I end up wiping, or losing aggro, and I adjust accordingly. The only time I've ever been kicked was when I D/C'd due to server errors and had a 4000+ queue wait, and I had the person I was running with tell the others to kick me. Unfortunately they had to abandon the queue cause there wasn't enough tanks that could do the dungeon being stuck behind the first instance.

Given the state of roles in this game, they're probably going to be waiting for a tank longer than the half hour it will take for you to wait for the deserter debuff to pass and get into another dungeon with better people instantly. As for power pulls, never stop trying to improve and test your limits! Big pulls! All the way to Ala Mhigo!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adire

I had the OP in a dungeon the other day. We were in the Aery, the healer had ilvl 90-ish gear mostly and he complained about it the whole run despite the healer keeping him alive. They argued a lot, we got to the last boss, then he demanded we either kick the healer, kick him, or sit there and wait for the dungeon to time out. The healer told him to just finish the run because they didn't want to hurt us (the dps), he (the OP) refused.

The healer really should've had better gear, but they were getting the job done. And when he decided to hold the group hostage we decided to just kick him. Luckily we got a replacement tank instantly and cleared the dungeon. OP, you should work on your attitude.

---

https://emojipedia-us.s3.amazonaws.c...face_1f914.png

So far haven't had a tank die in SB content with my healing, though I'm only a level 66 sch at the moment. I've had them do dangerous pulls and sometimes they're bad at avoiding the aoe's, but I really think healers can output more healing and for a longer period of time than they think they can.

Had a few of them pop their immortality a few times. Just because I knew they were going to live when they only had 6% HP doesn't mean they knew, I guess.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adire

I had the OP in a dungeon the other day...OP, you should work on your attitude.

---

Haha...I figured something was off with OP's story considering the amount of kicks they were subject to.

Thank you for sharing your experience - it was enlightening.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Freyt

So far haven't had a tank die in SB content with my healing, though I'm only a level 66 sch at the moment. I've had them do dangerous pulls and sometimes they're bad at avoiding the aoe's, but I really think healers can output more healing and for a longer period of time than they think they can.

Had a few of them pop their immortality a few times. Just because I knew they were going to live when they only had 6% HP doesn't mean they knew, I guess.

---

To be fair, you have to pop it at least a second or more ahead of reaching 0 HP or it'll eat the CD without actually making you immortal. At least Hallowed Ground is bad about doing that. So it's either use it way ahead of time or risk dying and losing the CD.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by missybee

Haha...I figured something was off with OP's story considering the amount of kicks they were subject to.

Thank you for sharing your experience - it was enlightening.

---

Yeah. I can believe he gets kicked frequently if this is his usual behavior. Attempting to hold a group, including innocent people hostage because you disagree with one person is about the lowest thing you can do as a tank.

Sounds as if you, and other tanks I've seen recently, have forgotten that healers have others to heal as well as the tank, I have seen tons of tanks recently rush in, power pull, and expect the healer and the dps to save their bacon....as a melee dps, most of these power pulls in SB dungeons comes with tons of AOE on the ground, which means your standing in it, or running out, which means no dps and its the healers that suffer trying to keep everybody up.
I for one have never been in such a hurry to complete a dungeon that power pulls are necessary, I mean, whats the point....tanks need not prove anything to me, just hold agro, keep mobs to a number where I can handle the AOE and the healers can heal us all.....everybody happy:)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adire

The healer really should've had better gear, but they were getting the job done. And when he decided to hold the group hostage we decided to just kick him. Luckily we got a replacement tank instantly and cleared the dungeon. OP, you should work on your attitude.

---

Yeah, I've had tanks do that. They get a LOT more cooperative once you explain that what they're doing is a reportable violation and then start teaching the others in the group how to file a GM report against them.

As for me tanking, I always follow Rule 2: always tank as if the healer isn't paying attention. If the healer tells me to pull more, I'll pull more. If they can't handle it, I go back to pulling less. Easy as that.

If a DPS eggs me to pull more, well that falls in line with Rule 1: always expect DPS to be inherently stupid.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vidu

I see you dont have tried healing in past level 60 dungeons yet, OP - maybe you want to do that and see the problems a healer is facing before you decide wether or not they should be able to handle them.

.

---

I actually get bored when a tank pulls three adds at a time and it seems they are more likely to do die cause im not payin attention and maybe talkin in chat and stuff like that I know my fault but still. At level 60 plus this is standard gameplay and people should be use to these big pulls by now, you can do it in shom al , dusk vigil, the avery , the vault, gubal libary all of them so why not do it in these new dungeons as well. My fav pull is in the same dungeon u mention pullin everything after the second boss i hate just pullin those four adds at the start its super boring.

The issue prob is , that alot of tanks forget they can use living dead, hollowed on pali , I dont know about warrior they seem pretty squsihy so I may do smaller pulls on them when I play them sense they no longer have blood bath anymore. But scholar does kinda suck at the moment Ive noticed they have the hardest time handling the big pulls Ill just hope I dont get to many of them in dungeons anymore fingers crossed.

I've only vote kicked a tank once, and it wasn't for pulling too much or too fast for the party. It was for being an asshole. These behaviors may overlap in some cases.

As has been said, if you're getting repeatedly kicked, you're the problem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DPZ2

I note the OP didn't exactly give the full lineup of DPS+Healer jobs as well as the instances involved where a kick was instigated.

Only time I wanted to lose our tank was in Dzamael Darkhold, where the tank decided to pull ALL of the hippogryph mobs with a monk and dragoon (me) as DPS. I'm sure the healer was having fits. After both DPS dying to the AoE's of the trash mobs, the tank 'rethought' large pulls in that instance.

---

That type of pull is pretty standard considering the light buff reduced your damage taken.
The DPS makeup doesn't generally play a factor.

I for one am so sick of these so-called Super Tank these power pullers who do not have the common courtesy to ask the healers who are probably undergeared in the first time in the dungeon if they mind being super pulled and then I have even witnessed this because the Tank died and so sad super pool because the and so sad super pool because the healer could not handle the damage or heal the amount of damage this so sad Super Super Tank was taking and then after Super Tank after Super Tank died he cussed out the Healer I was in the party with the Healer because it was Mike 14 year old daughter these tanks need to be punished because this is a grievance I can understand if there was an agreement between the Healer and so said Super Tank but when a tank does it without proper approval from the Healer then it is the tanks fault

The leveling dungeons between 50-60 and 60-70 are different than the end game dungeons in that you can't over gear them by much. They lvl sync your gear to 1 lvl above the dungeon (which is what 5-7iLvls or so?). The first couple dungeons are usually not a big deal but pulling a large number of groups past that can really stress the healer/healing. Not to mention there are no minimum gear levels for these dungeons (I have never understood why this is the case).

I still find healing the vault more challenging than any of the end game dungeons(experts both 60 and 70) even at the beginning of the expansion. I'm sure part of this is so many don't understand the mechanics. But we are allowed to overgear the end game dungeons so they quickly become MOAR BIG PULLZ.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adire

I had the OP in a dungeon the other day. We were in the Aery, the healer had ilvl 90-ish gear mostly and he complained about it the whole run despite the healer keeping him alive. They argued a lot, we got to the last boss, then he demanded we either kick the healer, kick him, or sit there and wait for the dungeon to time out. The healer told him to just finish the run because they didn't want to hurt us (the dps), he (the OP) refused.

The healer really should've had better gear, but they were getting the job done. And when he decided to hold the group hostage we decided to just kick him. Luckily we got a replacement tank instantly and cleared the dungeon. OP, you should work on your attitude.

---

I knew it. I knew it was him acting up.
@ OP - grow up.

I switched from sch main to drk main in SB. I don't ask the healer as to the size pull as I do not want to offend or leave them feeling slighted, I only pull one mob at a time. If the healer indicates he can handle a bigger pull, I will do that. If that works out and the healer is happy, I continue that way. It is not uncommon now that by the end of the dungeon I receive a thank you in chat from not only healers but also dps for not pulling as much as I can. No one wants to wait forever in df and then chronically wipe in content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adire

I had the OP in a dungeon the other day. We were in the Aery, the healer had ilvl 90-ish gear mostly and he complained about it the whole run despite the healer keeping him alive. They argued a lot, we got to the last boss, then he demanded we either kick the healer, kick him, or sit there and wait for the dungeon to time out. The healer told him to just finish the run because they didn't want to hurt us (the dps), he (the OP) refused.

The healer really should've had better gear, but they were getting the job done. And when he decided to hold the group hostage we decided to just kick him. Luckily we got a replacement tank instantly and cleared the dungeon. OP, you should work on your attitude.

---

i sorta knew there was another side of the story. Thanks!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tyrantdragon

I for one am so sick of these so-called Super Tank these power pullers who do not have the common courtesy to ask the healers who are probably undergeared in the first time in the dungeon if they mind being super pulled and then I have even witnessed this because the Tank died and so sad super pool because the and so sad super pool because the healer could not handle the damage or heal the amount of damage this so sad Super Super Tank was taking and then after Super Tank after Super Tank died he cussed out the Healer I was in the party with the Healer because it was Mike 14 year old daughter these tanks need to be punished because this is a grievance I can understand if there was an agreement between the Healer and so said Super Tank but when a tank does it without proper approval from the Healer then it is the tanks fault

---

helps everyone get better at the end of the day no need to ask the healer big pull always everyone will learn to get use to it

To be fair on my road from sixty to seventy as Dark Knight I was asked almost every dungeon to pull all the trash each segment contained. I was not comfortable with it because I feel squishier this expansion , but I did it without complaint because what my healer wants my healer gets. There was some nail biting ,and living dead may have been used a handful of times , but even the few odd wipes that happened were not met with bile or contempt. I think you may have been unlucky in who you were matched with , or some details may have been omitted due to the fact that they may demonize your role in the events that unfolded. You also have to consider group composition... just because your healer is awesome and can keep you up doesn't mean you have the AOE damage to make large pulls reasonable. Sorry you got kicked, that sucks.