Pls dont nerv Shinryu Story.

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Originally Posted by Avatre

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Both Titan HM (Required for A Relic Reborn) and EX were out when ilvl 90 was the top ilvl you could reach. As a matter of fact, you could obtain a weekly ilvl 90 weapon by defeating all 3 EX primals (Garuda, Titan and Ifrit. In that order). It was really hard at that ilvl. Imagine that Titan HM was being done with ilvl 70 or less, because the Relic was basically entry-level for people attempting the Coils. The Tomestones of Mythology back then were capped at 300, not 450, making it harder to gear your jobs up. People used these tomes for their relics instead of gear, because it required items that were only available that way. So, you basically had people with ilvl 70 gear using ilvl 90 weapons throughout most of 2.0.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Well, yeah, but the original Titan HM dance was not in any way universally loved, it became a blocker for a lot of players. Referring to this fight in that manner will probably trigger a few memories for some players. Also, if your forum join date is indicative of when you started playing FFXIV, you don't know how Titan HM originally was - remembering the gear most people went in with.

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It isn't indicative and you'd just be assuming.

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Originally Posted by Avatre

I'm not sure what the gear was like when Titan HM was originally released, but when I joined World of Darkness(for non-hardcore raiders) and Coils Savage was the top end of gear, and Soldiery was the non-capped, while Poetics were the weekly capped tomes. I didn't find it hard, nor did I find the EX version particularly hard(mained DRG at the time, and would stand just between his landslides to still hit him, but dodge them). After my 5th or 6th run(of EX), I would rarely die to anything in his fight.

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i45-50 free gear from job quests, i70 from uncapped tomes and no roulettes or any tome bonuses, i90 from capped tomes. Best weapon you could get, if you hadn't cleared Titan HM, was from i70 from Garuda. People liked to run it with three healers and one tank.

Reaching out to Square Enix and asking if the final fight is going to be nerfed is a pretty dubious thing for a 'news' outlet to do. Especially when it is falsely framed as a necessity.

I hope the fight in question remains as it is. It's a lot of fun, it's not ridiculously difficult and it serves to honour the final boss of the expansion by being just difficult enough to be a satisfying fight without being as punishing as Sephirot EX.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Well, yeah, but the original Titan HM dance was not in any way universally loved, it became a blocker for a lot of players. Referring to this fight in that manner will probably trigger a few memories for some players. Also, if your forum join date is indicative of when you started playing FFXIV, you don't know how Titan HM originally was - remembering the gear most people went in with.

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Quoted for truth. My gf is still traumatized by Titan HM and won't go even with 280+ ilvl.

it is not that bad, the mechanics, if the player have complete all the MSQ, dungeon, trial (Normal/Hard), and Raid (8 and 24), then it is just repeats of those we have seen

may be it take 1-2 wipes to remember or to learn all the mechanics, but eventually it will get through it

the only really complain i have would be the green wide AOE, i have no idea it is latency or what, there are times i clearly run out of the AOE zone before it cast and still got hit

and the green AOE might seem need to use sprint to get out of it? with the new sprint it could be kinda punishing for using it at wrong timing

it is giving a bit pressure on healer but overall it is fine

what need to be done is not the difficulty but the latency fix/FPS drop

if it got nerf it is more than just the new player to blame but also the veterans who have no patience and quit after 1-2 wipes

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Originally Posted by Waliel

i45-50 free gear from job quests, i70 from uncapped tomes and no roulettes or any tome bonuses, i90 from capped tomes. Best weapon you could get, if you hadn't cleared Titan HM, was from i70 from Garuda. People liked to run it with three healers and one tank.

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back in those day most of us just wearing darklight sets get wipe and wipe and finally

learn the fight and clear it, i remember everyone still trying the best even 3 wipes

but now most of the time in trial EX/raid 1 wipe, and half the team are gone

even Shinryu i have seen people quit just after 2 wipes

Other than maybe the Echo bonus, I see no reason to nerf this. It only took 2 tries after I asked a couple FC mates to queue with me. Was close as I was last dps alive blasting it at 1% and we were almost dead. But with practice, it should not be too tough. I just suggest to people, practice avoiding the mechanics on phase 3. I kept focusing on my casting and watching my bar and missed a couple mechanics (The 2nd tidal wave was tough). Just practice people, and not assume you will get the first day you get the quest.

I'll take a stance that won't be popular on the forums, but I believe represents a lot of your casual base (who don't even know forums exist - remember, if you are here, you are already more invested than most of the population).

It needs an adjustment.

It's simply too punishing to be part of MSQ. Please, keep the "hard" content to optional content (ex, savage, etc.) My father in law is well into his 60's and, when he gets here, will really struggle with this. One of my sons who plays probablyk 2-3 hours a week will too once he gets here.

Please keep the casual in mind.

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Originally Posted by Blood-Aki

Not anymore punishing then normal dungeons, and it can't be classifed as hard because it's a joke,

This leads me to realize that the people who want this nerf aren't even casual, they are just really bad players who have terrible awarness.

If not then what are you going to do after you win the fight? you certainly aren't ready for anything endgame, ex fights or savage, if you can't handle shinryu then anything after that you're no match for.

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Apart from the borderline rudeness of your post, you completely contradicted your own point. Of course people who find shiryu difficult are not ready for EX or Savage content. As the poster you replied to pointed out Shinryu isn't optional it's part of the main story quest. It should not even be comparable in difficulty to the optional content.

Calling people bad might inflate your ego, but it's rude and insulting, and if that is who you are, that is who you are. Casual players represent the vast majority of the players in this game, and the MSQ is core content to them. Much like it was with Titan Hard Mode, this fight could be considered too punishing for players who are here to play for fun, not to play optimally to win a place in a raid static . I really hope this message gets through to people, raiders and min/maxers are not the only players of this game, nor are you the majority of players. The MSQ and associated side content is for the majority of the playerbase. EX and Savage content is specifically designed for you. If people find Shinryu hard, they find it hard. take comfort from the fact that you are apparently better at the game than others, there's no need to insult people who either do not play as much as you or at the same level as you aspire to.

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Originally Posted by Eclipsed

Quoted for truth. My gf is still traumatized by Titan HM and won't go even with 280+ ilvl.

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This a thousand times. Because of the horror of Titan HM at minimum ilevel I have panic attacks whenever I have to do platform based fights (i.e. You can get knocked off) even if the mechanics are much more forgiving. My hands sweat, my heart races and my brain freezes up. I find it incredibly stressful and struggle to learn the new fight because of my panic. Had exactly this with the Menagerie. Hated every minute of it. Yes I cleared it but I can totally sympathise with people asking for a nerf. I didn't want to spend a second longer in there than I had to

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Originally Posted by Wrothgar77

I'll take a stance that won't be popular on the forums, but I believe represents a lot of your casual base (who don't even know forums exist - remember, if you are here, you are already more invested than most of the population).

It needs an adjustment.

It's simply too punishing to be part of MSQ. Please, keep the "hard" content to optional content (ex, savage, etc.) My father in law is well into his 60's and, when he gets here, will really struggle with this. One of my sons who plays probablyk 2-3 hours a week will too once he gets here.

Please keep the casual in mind.

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It's really not punishing though even if you have 3-4 people screwing up everything as long as you have a decent healer they can basically carry through the fight and soon the ratio will be mostly 7/8 with the clear and they can carry the other person easily people over reacted when it first came out I have 1 shot it the last 2 times I got it in DF.

On 1 run we had whole party minus me (healer) ,1 tank and dps die because of ice and without lb3 was able to recover the fight and win.

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Originally Posted by Blood-Aki

If you think that had anything to do with rude or ego, you clearly do not understand what those words mean, so apart from your pure ignorance on the subject.

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So, you are just plain rude. Thanks for confirming it so I can ignore you in future.

Today 11:58 AM
Blood-Aki
Player
Reason
Someone failed to understand meansing, don't want anyone crying.

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Originally Posted by Blood-Aki

If you think that had anything to do with rude or ego, you clearly do not understand what those words mean, so apart from your pure ignorance on the subject. i can almost see your point, seeing as the game is done for them after the last MSQ i guess it shouldn't be to hard for them. tho i don't see why it's difficult, maybe something im missing, perhaps if they do nerf it what do you suggest they do. he's already nothing more then move out of the way of bad circles.

I said it that way because even casual players can still easily beat it, so what's lower then a casual.



Na, you just fail at understand how being rude actually works, thanks for showing your age, you're welcome to, however, it keeps me from pointing out your wrongs in the future and you showing what you don't know, and for me now so i don't have to respond to nonsense.

Learn to read more carefully, and you won't look that silly again.

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Actually, your tone, both here and in some of the other locations on the forum, definitely comes off as rude, holier-than-thou, superior, and whatever else you want to use as a "I'm better, just git gud" descriptor.

After much deliberation with myself, I do not believe Shinryu should be nerfed. Maybe slightly tweaked to do less mechanic spam? But overall, no, don't nerf it. Even if I was frustrated with myself due to that Trial, I would rather have a challenge that I can feel accomplished to beat, rather than be spoon fed something I didn't earn.

My main problems with Shinryu was that for the most part as people would definite it; I am a 'casual'. I've never done EX stuff or Savage stuff. So, taking all that in overwhelmed me. Especially when 80% of the time I felt that 'Hey! I dodged that!'.

You know, "I moved out of the way before the cast timer ended and I still got hit, what gives!"

It took two? Three? tries to clear Shinryu with my BFF and other randos. But I still didn't feel like I earned the clear because I kept dying to stupid shit that I didn't need to die to, despite my BFF saying 'hey you did your share, it's fine'.

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Originally Posted by Avatre

"I'm better, just git gud" descriptor.

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I mean, that's all it takes for this boss tho. I openly enjoy playing content right at launch and before the video kiddies come along parroting reddit. Never forget The Line. People can learn, and not cry on 1 wipe/cry harder when they can't replicate what the man on the internet said do.

Pay attention, talk to party members, beat the boss.

I just ran RM earlier today just for the hell of it and this is how part if the convo at the end went...

BRD: and there you go (PLD) you just cleared the hardest boss in the game
PLD: Sweet
Me: lol wat
DRK: it's not even hard
BRD: people get stuck on this for hours or even days
Me: Yeah, but it's not really hard. Once you know what you're doing it's fairly easy...
BRD: yeah but an fc friend was stuck in this for 6 hours one day
Me: What how?
RDM: Probably bad luck/groups
BRD: yeah
DRK: People are just bad. They need to learn how to play better.

I don't personally like the "git gud" mentality but the DRK isn't wrong when he says people need to learn.

We didn't even get close to wiping... I don't think anyone even died. I seriously think that as long as you have 1 tank and 1 healer who know the fight you can be easily carried through.

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Originally Posted by Clethoria

I mean, that's all it takes for this boss tho. I openly enjoy playing content right at launch and before the video kiddies come along parroting reddit. Never forget The Line. People can learn, and not cry on 1 wipe/cry harder when they can't replicate what the man on the internet said do.

Pay attention, talk to party members, beat the boss.

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I prefer running content WITHOUT looking at guides for the most part. For RM, I cleared it the first time in there, on the 3rd or 4th attempt. We had one person who had run it before and let us wipe to the tidal wave because they wanted everyone to experience that(no biggie, probably would have happened for a bunch of people even if they called it out).

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Originally Posted by NightFire19

Only change I would think they could add is Echo buff.

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Or lowered HP. I know Susanoo needs less hp for sure, after he uses his ultimate you spend an eternity whittling him down and he does not even attempt to use his ultimate any more after the first attempt and instead just dances around the battlefield while his health drains ever soo slowly. It really makes it feel like he has a lot more hp than he's meant to have.

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Originally Posted by Avatre

I prefer running content WITHOUT looking at guides for the most part. For RM, I cleared it the first time in there, on the 3rd or 4th attempt. We had one person who had run it before and let us wipe to the tidal wave because they wanted everyone to experience that(no biggie, probably would have happened for a bunch of people even if they called it out).

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The best way to learn the mechanics for anything is to solo it. When soloing older content you're free of the distraction that is other players and have to deal with all the mechanics yourself, its a good learning experience. Now if only we could do that for at level content (without rewards of course)

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Originally Posted by Klonoa7

The best way to learn the mechanics for anything is to solo it. When soloing older content you're free of the distraction that is other players and have to deal with all the mechanics yourself, its a good learning experience. Now if only we could do that for at level content (without rewards of course)

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I feel like they should do that with Sky Stone Sea. Have the dummies throw out the mechanics so you can learn them. And have it be like Bardam's Mettle boss 2 and have that X if you fail to dodge it and what not. It would be neat, in any case.

I saw him get beaten down by 4 players.
#BuffShinryu

Honestly it wasn't even hard... 90% of that fight was positional, move here, don't get hit by this, dps the tail, etc.

It's at a very good difficulty, enough to be a slight challenge but also enough to feel rewarding when you clear it. Why make the last boss of the expansion a cake walk? wouldn't feel epic at all.

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Originally Posted by Rekujin

Honestly it wasn't even hard... 90% of that fight was positional, move here, don't get hit by this, dps the tail, etc.

It's at a very good difficulty, enough to be a slight challenge but also enough to feel rewarding when you clear it. Why make the last boss of the expansion a cake walk? wouldn't feel epic at all.

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He's not the last boss though, we all know that position is reserved for Omega who is the host of Deltascape (Stormblood's version of the Alexander raids)

What is actually hard for people exactly on this fight?
I'm willing to know what part of the battle they want to nerf so much.

(I'm really asking to know and understand)

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

What is actually hard for people exactly on this fight?
I'm willing to know what part of the battle they want to nerf so much.

(I'm really asking to know and understand)

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From what i'v heard, it's just damage, people can't seem to handle, none of his mechanics are anything an average player can't handle so damage is the only thing that is feasible to complain about, which still is nothing high.

Maybe someone who actually has had trouble with it can pinpoint it better then i.

Then it's all about healers right?

Well, as someone who had trouble with it, if you skimmed my post you would know that some of it is the mechanic spam. Also bad luck in being in a bad position with nowhere to go because a lot of the stage's tiles are missing.

Although... I'm not blaming the Trial for that. It's on me for being in a bad spot, or not dodging the aoes in time. It really is just the back to back mechanics. As someone who never did previous EX Primals, it was kind of overwhelming for me due to not being used to the amount of mechanics coming at me one after another so fast.

FYI: I did watch a guide beforehand because I don't like being blind... for the most part.

the fight really isn't that hard. It's all about mentality. It really is.

I talked about 13 groups through this fight. Once they get the mechanics it's a breeze. It's one of my favorite fights (that and Omega V4). If it wasn't my favorite fight i wouldnt have healed it a baker dozen times lol.

I am sure they wont nerf it. They didn't nerf Titan HM. I'm sure they wont nerf this either.

It'll be ok

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

Then it's all about healers right?

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negatory. It's an easy heal...no different than the Omega heals. BUT when a lot of people do not understand the mechanics it can become burdensome on a healer.

The issue is a lot of folks not knowing the mechanics, therefore, these things happen

1. They run around hoping not to get hit by something
2. DPS suffers a bit because of that
3. Fight takes longer to conclude
4. Because fight takes longer, people keep getting hit or killed by mechanics.
5. THEN it becomes a drain on the healers

Once you get the mechanics down

1. Heals are limited to medica2, some regens, asylum. We can focus on Assize and other dps
2. DPS are truly DPSing very very well
3. Fight ends about 30% faster.
4. I have about 13K manna left at the end

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Originally Posted by Annah

negatory. It's an easy heal...no different than the Omega heals. BUT when a lot of people do not understand the mechanics it can become burdensome on a healer.

The issue is a lot of folks not knowing the mechanics, therefore, these things happen

1. They run around hoping not to get hit by something
2. DPS suffers a bit because of that
3. Fight takes longer to conclude
4. Because fight takes longer, people keep getting hit or killed by mechanics.
5. THEN it becomes a drain on the healers

Once you get the mechanics down

1. Heals are limited to medica2, some regens, asylum. We can focus on Assize and other dps
2. DPS are truly DPSing very very well
3. Fight ends about 30% faster.
4. I have about 13K manna left at the end

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So it really is mechanics..? i figured that the most simple part of the fight. interesting to know.

I agree they shouldn't nerf it, except maybe adding echo. It's tough for a story quest but it's doable if people learn how.

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Originally Posted by Blood-Aki

So it really is mechanics..? i figured that the most simple part of the fight. interesting to know.

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well every fight gets simple when the mechanics are known. It seems impossible at first but when you get it you really get it.

Every trial and raid is intimidating. The excitement is when you figure it out and complete it :)

a little side story, after my third or so wipe of the trial it finally dawned on me why they changed sprint lol.

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Originally Posted by Annah

well every fight gets simple when the mechanics are known. It seems impossible at first but when you get it you really get it.

Every trial and raid is intimidating. The excitement is when you figure it out and complete it :)

a little side story, after my third or so wipe of the trial it finally dawned on me why they changed sprint lol.

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True, as this game is all about mechanics but that fight's mechanics are nothing anyone who has played this haven't seen before, even the hellfire mechanic is seen in sycrus tower, nearly all of them save a few are repeats of old mechanics.

That's why i found it simple, because i reconized most of them.

My only issue with Shinryu right now is people too quick to abandon after a wipe or two. My other issue is the recent ddosing of the servers making performing well at Shinryu dicey at best. At this rate, I'll be capped on Verity tomes before I beat Shinryu.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

I agree they shouldn't nerf it, except maybe adding echo. It's tough for a story quest but it's doable if people learn how.

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To some people, adding Echo is a nerf.

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Originally Posted by Annah

negatory. It's an easy heal...no different than the Omega heals. BUT when a lot of people do not understand the mechanics it can become burdensome on a healer.

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i gone through it with my AST
it is quite a lot of pressure when most people including myself have not been into it
watching a youtube guide is no where as good as experience the fight myself
the fight itself is not the problem, but the people, new players/return players or vet, it is the impatience in players that turn this fight into a difficult one
i have see too much rage quit after 1-2 wipes, if it is just a DPS fine, it can be replace very soon, a tank or a heal it could take sometime to fill up the slot and once the rage quit started, players follow
I have fight this 3 times (helping my friends) excluding my MSQ, 2 of the fight end with 2 wipes, tank or healer leave and whole party will be gone in a minute
the only thing need fixing for this fight is the penalty of early leaving/quitting

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Originally Posted by Velthice

Maybe I'm blind, but I haven't ever seen a thread genuinely asking for the fight to be Merced. What I have seen is thread after thread of people pleading for the fight to not be Merced and then few doomsaying threads along the lines of "face it guys, square is you g to bow to the bads and nerf it"

If the fight does get nerfed I feel it's going to be because of all these threads asking for it not to be nerfed that square saw and were like "Why would we nerf it? Is this something we should be looking at?" Which is you going to be both hilarious and stupid.

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The only thing that justifies a nerf is the Active Time Event, and it's not that it needs something , it's that the button needs to show up 3 seconds before you can hit it. The first time anyone plays it, they're not sure what it does and likely hesitate.

That's all.

The rest of the fight is pretty predictable, even if you go into it blind, it's not even like Titan where if you fall off you stay off.

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Originally Posted by Noshpan

My only issue with Shinryu right now is people too quick to abandon after a wipe or two. My other issue is the recent ddosing of the servers making performing well at Shinryu dicey at best. At this rate, I'll be capped on Verity tomes before I beat Shinryu.

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This game needs an anti-abandon penalty for all content equal to greater to the content time remaining that is abandoned. Even if everyone agrees to abandon it, the penalty should apply if it's not unanimous to avoid this problem. That said sometimes things happen and it's unavoidable, it's preferable to kick someone not playing than dumping the entire group.

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Originally Posted by Noshpan

To some people, adding Echo is a nerf.

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It makes it easier with every wipe. The Echo should not be added (in fact it should be removed from all content that is outgeared by the the party.) Hence people could strategically wipe several times to waste less time just to make it easier.

After doing this on both my healer and tank, I can easily say that this fight is harder than the EX modes or the Omega story mode raids. I would prefer to see the old fashioned stacking echo applied instead of an outright nerf. It worked wonders on the old primals and has the potential to resolve the issues on this fight. Don't want the echo after a wipe? Click it off and go without. Am I happy I cleared it without echo? You bet I am, but I also understand that not everybody has a raiding background or friends who can push them through. Thus, some moderate easing of the encounter after some effort has been expended is not unreasonable to ask.

Took me two days to beat this beast and I do think it could use a nerf, but only because it's part of the MSQ. If people didn't have to deal with it for story reasons you can be certain nobody would be complaining but since it is and it basically locks the entire endgame behind it, people will complain.

Heck, I was pretty well geared too: I had some 300 pieces from the previous dungeon and I had more hp than the second tank, and he STILL packed a punch to both of us. On top of that it feels too filled with mechanics and again, for an MSQ dungeon thing, it should be more lenient. In fact, I think this would've worked better as a hard fight for endgame, like when Garuda Titan and Ifrit HM were harder versions of the MSQ fights. As it is, it's just a chore because it locks major content and that's it (and I couldn't wait to end it)

Don't want it nerfed, don't make it part of the main story, that's all I can say.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

The only thing that justifies a nerf is the Active Time Event, and it's not that it needs something , it's that the button needs to show up 3 seconds before you can hit it. The first time anyone plays it, they're not sure what it does and likely hesitate.

That's all.

The rest of the fight is pretty predictable, even if you go into it blind, it's not even like Titan where if you fall off you stay off.



This game needs an anti-abandon penalty for all content equal to greater to the content time remaining that is abandoned. Even if everyone agrees to abandon it, the penalty should apply if it's not unanimous to avoid this problem. That said sometimes things happen and it's unavoidable, it's preferable to kick someone not playing than dumping the entire group.



It makes it easier with every wipe. The Echo should not be added (in fact it should be removed from all content that is outgeared by the the party.) Hence people could strategically wipe several times to waste less time just to make it easier.

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So, basically you want things to be more punishing? Thank goodness you're not on the development team.