Tanks that think they are DPS, just stop...

Man it's a good thing SE didn't lock the ilvl 270 healer accessories or we'd be in real trouble!

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Originally Posted by Fyce

I personally don't agree with that, because I don't think that the gap will grow big enough so that Tank's DPS almost don't matter anymore. But it's still a valid concern as it's quite hard to predict from now.

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I also believe it's being quite pessimistic. The gap didn't widen that much back in ARR when tanks didn't VIT taken into account of their attack power, just like right now, and nobody ever even brought the question. I still don't see why this time would be different. Our numbers inflated, but the actual proportions have remained the same, haven't they?

I have no issue with maximizing dps by utilizing the best possible rotation as a skillcheck but from what I see its that people have an issue with having lower dps than before even when maximizing rotations. If you are a lazy tank that just spams aggro in tank stance then your dps will still suffer and you'll still get called out and rightly so. But what I question is the idea that I'm maximizing my rotations yet I can't achieve my previous numbers now I'm not content. Its SE that has done this for whatever reason. Now I dont expect people to just quietly accept it. I just think that it would be better to ask for different compensations rather than pushing for a reversal to dps when they clearly say they dont want to. They imposed a change and players can adapt to it. You can still work towards clearing raid content faster just within the new constraints SE placed. And do not presume that all people who agree with changes are lazy for wanting to play within the constraints imposed

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

I actually LOLed at this for several moments.



Exactly. And @Splitinfinity, because DPS is ever-useful and will never not be, if you make it so that a skilled player can't output more DPS on a tank through motivation, practice, optimization, and experience, than a non-skilled or just unmotivated player, you remove an incentive to tank at all. "Why bother trying to tank well when I'm not actually helping my group clear any faster by doing so?"

The only way this will not be the case is if they make raid boss's DPS higher than our healers' HPS to the point where mitigating that damage becomes a teethgrinding battle for the tank. This would require a redesign of the tanks and the healers from the ground up as well as a redesign of all of the game's current content.I prefer the simpler solution of just allowing tanks to deal good damage if they try. Threads like this basically boil down to a certain segment of the tanking population asking that they not be called out for being lazy within the game's current design, nothing more, nothing less. No one is FORCING them to not be lazy, they just don't like their little feelings getting hurt.

There is no reason why the average healthy, 20-30-something gamer with two hands, two eyes, 10 fingers, a functioning brain, and decent coordination between these elements should have trouble doing this if they put in effort.

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You nailed it. It is always the same: Bad/lazy players wanting them to make the game easier.

They usually have poor understanding of the game's mechanics and/or a strange posting style that is not very coherent. Thankfully, I think they are outnumbered by the reasonable and logical voices.

A lot of salt in the tank community, as usual. I'll just continue tanking in grit, the whole fight. When I queue as a tank, personal dps is the last thing on my mind. I have 2-4 beat sticks in my party to do that job, and they don't need help from me. As long as my targets keep their focus on me, while I give the healer as easy a time as possible in keeping me up, that's enough for me.

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Originally Posted by Lannybaby

A lot of salt in the tank community, as usual. I'll just continue tanking in grit, the whole fight. When I queue as a tank, personal dps is the last thing on my mind. I have 2-4 beat sticks in my party to do that job, and they don't need help from me. As long as my targets keep their focus on me, while I give the healer as easy a time as possible in keeping me up, that's enough for me.

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You are very good tank then. /gcsalute

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Originally Posted by Evaddaragon

I also believe it's being quite pessimistic. The gap didn't widen that much back in ARR when tanks didn't VIT taken into account of their attack power, just like right now, and nobody ever even brought the question. I still don't see why this time would be different. Our numbers inflated, but the actual proportions have remained the same, haven't they?

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Except a lot of tanks went for slaying gear to boost their attack power, and there weren't restrictions on accessories then as now.

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Originally Posted by ed3891

Except a lot of tanks went for slaying gear to boost their attack power, and there weren't restrictions on accessories then as now.

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Not nearly as close as it got since the STR meta. Not. Even. Close.

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

You know who you are. stop complaining about your DPS numbers and hold aggro with aggro builder combos, and if DPS die because of they casually ripped aggro off you then that is your fault because you didn't hold aggro on that 1 trash mob. if they used an AoE, then that is their fault. Do you job as a tank and hold aggro. Because I already am.

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Yeah cause we all find it exctremely riveting and really wanna stand in front of a mob mashing 1 2 3 and occasionally popping a coolie because that's all tanking is about right? Sorry some actually try to max out the potential of their classes.

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

stop complaining about your DPS numbersand hold aggro with aggro builder combos, Also stop blaming the healers for not keeping you alive and blaming them for DPSing when you clearly ran too far ahead and decided to not use any cooldowns thats your own fault for being stupid, you masochists. tanks will still do DPS but not as much the actual beatsticks that are the DPS role, Since I main DRK which is a tank job, get used to getting tough love from the community if they call you out on it... I am so sick of the whole DPS tank META to the point that SE might as well re-boot the entire forums and have everyone build it from scratch...

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I have no issues with aggro and I am a dps because thats half of what a tank ia there for, a dps with added responsibility of aggro and mitigation. My healers have no issue doing dps and healing so yours are slacking. And yes we should shut down the forums all because YOU cant do damage AND tank. Please get over yourself.

dps that cant outdps tanks... please just stop :(

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Originally Posted by Dizzy_Derp

I have no issues with aggro and I am a dps because thats half of what a tank ia there for, a dps with added responsibility of aggro and mitigation. My healers have no issue doing dps and healing so yours are slacking. And yes we should shut down the forums all because YOU cant do damage AND tank. Please get over yourself.

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Only quoting bits and pieces.... really? I CAN tank and do damage because that is what DRKs do especially with the new changes to Blood Price. I know you are WAR and respect what you do as a WAR but do NOT a huge chunk of a post and make it sound like I can't tank. I am just sick of the "go STR accessories tank META" that I'm guessing you use ilvl270 STR accessories to do more damage.

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

Only quoting bits and pieces.... really? I CAN tank and do damage because that is what DRKs do especially with the new changes to Blood Price. I know you are WAR and respect what you do as a WAR but do NOT a huge chunk of a post and make it sound like I can't tank. I am just sick of the "go STR accessories tank META" that I'm guessing you use ilvl270 STR accessories to do more damage.

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I didn't meat to snip your quote 1000 word limit. I am making assumptions based on how it is that you worded your post, which tbh sounds like the mindset a bad tank would have. You may not be one but you seriously said tanks need to stop thinking about dps. And yes I do wear all str and I agree it's stupid that I am wearing 3.x gear but it's the best gear we can equip so I do, but it's not like I'm happy about having to.

I dont give two sh@#s about dps numbers. I do hate how long it takes to kill overworld enemies. Seems like either war dps is now around 20% of what dps are doing, or SB monsters have a lot higher hp scaling and even dps take longer to kill stuff than back in HW. Im so bored/frustrated that I basically stopped playing. (complete your pre 70 fetch quest? nope. enjoy this poorly timed assault from an overworld mob. take 10 years to kill it. repeat.)
Would play something like sam but i dont like paying to play a game and wait in a queue.

This is starting to remind me of those threads in the healer forums where they actually argued if healers should contribute dps when they don't need to heal or just do absolutely nothing. Before you know it, the dps players are going to start arguing whether or not they should dps.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

This is starting to remind me of those threads in the healer forums where they actually argued if healers should contribute dps when they don't need to heal or just do absolutely nothing. Before you know it, the dps players are going to start arguing whether or not they should dps.

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The DPS players would just argue over which job has the biggest numbers... Or they would argue which DPS role tanks the floor more... 1 of those 2...

I don't really understand how you guys think.. if you want to tank in tank stance doing 1 2 3 combo or whatever, then that's your own choice whether you you're just lazy or that's the cap of your skills. But don't come and tell other tanks who can fulfil their job and do great dps to follow your steps. you have the choice, don't try and take the ability to choose from others, if they're capable of doing that what bothers you?

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Originally Posted by Kaisinel

Yeah cause we all find it exctremely riveting and really wanna stand in front of a mob mashing 1 2 3 and occasionally popping a coolie because that's all tanking is about right? Sorry some actually try to max out the potential of their classes.

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I wish I could like this more.

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Honestly, there's a lot I can say about how SE has designed tanking.

1. Why do tank stances have a damage penalty in the first place? Defensive Stance has no damage penalty in TERA. It just doesn't have the benefits of Assault Stance. I suppose a case could made for DRK since it can have both stances up at the same time. I'm just saying, if SE wants players to stay in tank stance, that's one way to do it.

2. You should be able to use your full kit. In TERA, Warriors could make full use of their kit in both stances (Except for Cross Parry, Infuriate and Smoke Flanker only available in Defensive Stance; Infuriate used to work in Assault Stance but it was abused to get a second Infuriate after the tank's Infuriate was on CD). TERA Warriors have a similar stack mechanic to Wrath/Abandon where they would build 10 stacks of Edge to execute Scythe (The base damage is misleading as Scythe is a Warrior's highest hitting attack and contributes greatly to DPS as the stacks give it a very high crit boost; I use it once in this video for 2,241,306 damage). But for Warrior in FFXIV, Inner Beast is locked behind Defiance and Fell Cleave is locked behind Deliverance. To be fair though, it does give each stance its own feel. Although because I'm used to using Scythe in Defensive Stance, I see no problem with allowing use of Fell Cleave in Defiance. Scythe is pretty similar to Fell Cleave in my opinion. Scythe is the highest aggro generating skill in Defensive Stance just due to the high damage output.

3. The combos are too simple. On Warrior, it's either Butcher's Block, Storm's Eye or Storm's Path. Paladin is pretty much same thing. Not sure about Dark Knight as I haven't played it. But anyways, I can list all the basic combos for Warrior in TERA. Note these combos can be chained together. For example, Blade Draw should not be hardcasted so one would use a Blade Draw combo like Rising Fury->Blade Draw into Scythe.

Torrent of Blows->Blade Draw
Cross Parry->Blade Draw
Charging Slash->Blade Draw
Death from Above or Evasive Roll->Vortex Slash->Blade Draw
Combative Strike->Traverse Cut->Blade Draw
Poison Blade->Traverse Cut->Blade Draw
Rising Fury->Blade Draw
Combative Strike->Rain of Blows
Pounce->Rain of Blows
Cascade of Stuns->Rain of Blows
Combative Strike->Reaping Slash
Rain of Blows->Reaping Slash
Cross Parry->Smoke Flanker
Blade Draw->Scythe
Evasive Roll->Scythe
Rain of Blows->Scythe
Poison Blade->Scythe
Leaping Strike->Scythe

4. Passive mitigation is really boring compared to active mitigation. In TERA, because of the constant damage output and the ability to block damage, you had to constantly pay attention to the boss. It was very engaging. But here it's a snoozefest. Being able to block or use an invulnerability frame to totally mitigate damage made it a challenge to take 0 damage (And optimizing DPS made it even more challenging as optimizing DPS and taking 0 damage are at ends of each other; there were hardcore players who did slaying runs as you would do more damage if your HP was less than 50%). Another thing is blocking in TERA allowed animation cancelling which actually made tank warrior a lot more fast paced than DPS warrior.

TL;DR The way SE has designed tanking encourages tanks to DPS because it's not very fun otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Evaddaragon

I also believe it's being quite pessimistic. The gap didn't widen that much back in ARR when tanks didn't VIT taken into account of their attack power, just like right now, and nobody ever even brought the question. I still don't see why this time would be different. Our numbers inflated, but the actual proportions have remained the same, haven't they?

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I might be wrong, but looking at the kit we currently have, I pretty much say it would be different imo. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

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Originally Posted by Remiilia-vermilion

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Thank you. I couldn't have said it better myself. If you are content with pretending your a turtle and doing nothing else but taking damage then by all means do what you want. But a lot of us here want to fully utilize our kits, we want to be an asset to our raid parties and survive while actually contributing to the fight. We aren't just sponges here to get slapped by a boss, so if we can survive and do exactly what you are doing by keeping agro and surviving WHILE also pushing for numbers then why the hell shouldn't we be allowed to.

There is such a ridiculous over exaggeration on the forums right now; no one in the tanking community is calling for equal numbers as a DPS, and before you try and say "that's how it was in HW" then your dps is bad plain and simple. We want to contribute and fight along side our party and feel like we're doing something other then acting like we're a brick wall that taunts.

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Originally Posted by Remiilia-vermilion

if you want to tank in tank stance doing 1 2 3 combo or whatever, then that's your own choice whether you you're just lazy or that's the cap of your skills.

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Nice, so we're lazy if we play tanks the way we want to. As long as the tank is top of the enmity list, and as long as he's not getting creamed to the point that healers can't handle it, then all should be well. Any extra, over-the-top, dps should just be considered that - extra. But no, 1 2 3 tanks get insults for doing our jobs the way you don't think we should.

Honestly, I'm so tired of being told to drop grit and use more DA, then be called bad if I don't.

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

You know who you are. stop complaining about your DPS numbers and hold aggro with aggro builder combos, and if DPS die because of they casually ripped aggro off you then that is your fault because you didn't hold aggro on that 1 trash mob. if they used an AoE, then that is their fault. Do you job as a tank and hold aggro. Because I already am...

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Just out of curiosity. Have you ever cleared a relevent raid-tier in a feasible amount of time?

Also. There a plenty of other MMORPGs, where tanks are doing exactly that. Just spaming aggro abilities and using tank cooldowns here and there. Ever considered switching to any of those? Because I sure would, if square took away my ability to do damage as a tank. Or at least stoped playing as a tank. Because I'm already sick from that kind of gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Lannybaby

Nice, so we're lazy if we play tanks the way we want to. As long as the tank is top of the enmity list, and as long as he's not getting creamed to the point that healers can't handle it, then all should be well. Any extra, over-the-top, dps should just be considered that - extra. But no, 1 2 3 tanks get insults for doing our jobs the way you don't think we should.

Honestly, I'm so tired of being told to drop grit and use more DA, then be called bad if I don't.

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I'm not insulting the way you play, I'm actually talking about the way you think as I said at the beginning. Again, you can play the way you want, but don't tell others to not do dps while they can and then blame them for being good and for you to be called bad by the community cause you don't wanna do dps while you can

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Originally Posted by Lannybaby

Nice, so we're lazy if we play tanks the way we want to. As long as the tank is top of the enmity list, and as long as he's not getting creamed to the point that healers can't handle it, then all should be well. Any extra, over-the-top, dps should just be considered that - extra. But no, 1 2 3 tanks get insults for doing our jobs the way you don't think we should.

Honestly, I'm so tired of being told to drop grit and use more DA, then be called bad if I don't.

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You guys insult tanks who optimize their dps too. So where is the Problem?

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Originally Posted by Cevoh

Thank you. I couldn't have said it better myself. If you are content with pretending your a turtle and doing nothing else but taking damage then by all means do what you want. But a lot of us here want to fully utilize our kits, we want to be an asset to our raid parties and survive while actually contributing to the fight. We aren't just sponges here to get slapped by a boss, so if we can survive and do exactly what you are doing by keeping agro and surviving WHILE also pushing for numbers then why the hell shouldn't we be allowed to.

There is such a ridiculous over exaggeration on the forums right now; no one in the tanking community is calling for equal numbers as a DPS, and before you try and say "that's how it was in HW" then your dps is bad plain and simple. We want to contribute and fight along side our party and feel like we're doing something other then acting like we're a brick wall that taunts.

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Yeah, as I said in my comment, everything SE has designed in terms of tanking has pretty much encouraged tanks to DPS because tanking otherwise is just too bland and boring.

the current tank balance is horrible, how does a class with a current block rate of around 40%+ that will continue to scale up, do damage on par with tank classes that don't even have a shield, Also locking us out of STR equipment is catering towards the casuals that complain they are being out damaged by tanks to begin with due to their lack of experience with their own class, This makes me scared for Savage Level Contents Difficulty.

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Originally Posted by Kusaribe

Just out of curiosity. Have you ever cleared a relevent raid-tier in a feasible amount of time?

Also. There a plenty of other MMORPGs, where tanks are doing exactly that. Just spaming aggro abilities and using tank cooldowns here and there. Ever considered switching to any of those? Because I sure would, if square took away my ability to do damage as a tank. Or at least stoped playing as a tank. Because I'm already sick from that kind of gameplay.

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Unfortunately Thordan EX is the only relevant 1 I cleared... before Stormblood...

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Originally Posted by Renkei

the current tank balance is horrible, how does a class with a current block rate of around 40%+ that will continue to scale up, do damage on par with tank classes that don't even have a shield, Also locking us out of STR equipment is catering towards the casuals that complain they are being out damaged by tanks to begin with due to their lack of experience with their own class, This makes me scared for Savage Level Contents Difficulty.

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I want to do Savage mode content but I would rather do it with people from my FC than a PUG static that is way too serious, and fun is higher priority in games but some people like to take the fun out of it... like the STR tank META... I'm of the VIT tank META since since tanks are supposed to take damage...

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

I want to do Savage mode content but I would rather do it with people from my FC than a PUG static that is way too serious, and fun is higher priority in games but some people like to take the fun out of it... like the STR tank META... I'm of the VIT tank META since since tanks are supposed to take damage...

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There is no Vit tank meta. Meta means most efficient tactics available and being vit tank is clearly not the most efficient way(At least currently).

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Originally Posted by PomPomFlare

There is no Vit tank meta. Meta means most efficient tactics available and being vit tank is clearly not the most efficient way(At least currently).

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um obviously you dont know of the defensive drk meta https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBLsjnqcXsI

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Originally Posted by PomPomFlare

There is no Vit tank meta. Meta means most efficient tactics available and being vit tank is clearly not the most efficient way(At least currently).

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Are you telling me Defensive Dark Knight is not meta?

P.S. Logs for science.

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

Are you telling me Defensive Dark Knight is not meta?

P.S. Logs for science.

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yeah that meta is what every dps/healer/non dps tank wants so bad.
its so terribly stoopid that I

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Originally Posted by Baci

You guys insult tanks who optimize their dps too. So where is the Problem?

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Really? And when did I say this? Are you sure it was me who insulted tanks who optimize their dps? Where in my posts did I say this? And note, I don't speak for other tanks.

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Originally Posted by Remiilia-vermilion

I'm not insulting the way you play, I'm actually talking about the way you think as I said at the beginning. Again, you can play the way you want, but don't tell others to not do dps while they can and then blame them for being good and for you to be called bad by the community cause you don't wanna do dps while you can

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When did I blame others for being good because they dps as a tank? Oh wait, you're assuming. Got it.

Obvious troll is obvious but for reals.

When played correctly, aggressive tanking is a million miles ahead of pacifistic style pure defense tanking. Cooldown usage is everything in this game for tanks, because damage is predictable in where it spikes.

I guarantee you I don't drop below 60% hp from any of susano's instant cleavebusters in phase one, and I'm not even in grit. Because I've memorized where all his mechanics are in their entirety and when I need to mitigate, and when I'm safe to burn a defensive cooldown on smaller busters because I know I'm not going to need it for a major tank buster until after it would come back up off CD.

And when I'm sitting there with your 'average duty/partyfinder dps' and we're hitting enrage, I am absolutely trying to pump out as much DPS as I can because it feels like I can make or break the fight.

Sure in progression I stay in grit more often and pull more carefully but if you expect all tanks in all dungeons to pull safely and sit in stance at all times, all you're doing is hurting the skill level of tanks in the future. We need to learn what damage feels like, which mobs in particular are crazy, which ones can be multi-pulled, get a feel for our healthbars and how mitigation affects it.

You /have/ to forgive a 'hero pull' once in a while because without actually trying it we'll never know what we can and can't do. Just as I don't get angry at a healer when I die during a fight and they say something like 'oops got greedy' with their dps. Healers need to learn where the balances are too.

Of course that goes out the window if said hero-pulling tank comes out and blames the healer. But hey, rude people will be rude.

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

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Fun is subjective. I like being a dps tank because it pushes the boundaries of a tank by efficiently using cool downs and stance dances so that I may survive as well as push for damage to down the boss. It's exciting and dynamic, it's a risk for reward style that I and many others like.

No one here is saying your style is wrong, you may play your tank as you please but we don't like being told ours is wrong either. Efficiency is the name of the game for end game raiders, and the fact of the matter is with SE's recent changes your play style isn't in danger, ours is.

Most of us don't care if your defensive, we don't care if you stay in tank stance because we aren't part of your raid group. Most of us just want to enjoy our class and push ourselves, when you've perfected a CD rotation for a fight what else are we to strive for? Damage, can we skip this phase can we kill it faster, what can I get away with. That is a raiders mentality.

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Originally Posted by Lannybaby

When did I blame others for being good because they dps as a tank? Oh wait, you're assuming. Got it.

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Umm.. I was replying to your post? I didn't mean you specifically, if you didn't, there are others who did. I've seen some tanks who eventually hate and blame the dps tanks cause the "community" (as I said in my earlier post) call them bad. Why was I replying with "you"? Cause you were saying "we" just in case you were wondering >_>

Tanks have every right to want to see their damage numbers go up through an expansion. This is a freaking mmo, and there is nothing satisfying about seeing your enmity just go up instead. Enmity is boring, if you can keep it you're looking for other things to do.

I don't think they should ever dps as much as a true dps, but out of tank stance they should at least pull something between a bard/machinist (support dps). The only reason I would see this bothering people is if they're terrible dps players afraid of getting out dpsed by a tank.

This whole issue is frankly stupid. The solution was scaling attack power off of vit, and adjusting the scale as needed. The solution to inflation is lower stat increases over tiers, not breaking the meta in two, smh.

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Originally Posted by Lannybaby

Nice, so we're lazy if we play tanks the way we want to. As long as the tank is top of the enmity list, and as long as he's not getting creamed to the point that healers can't handle it, then all should be well. Any extra, over-the-top, dps should just be considered that - extra. But no, 1 2 3 tanks get insults for doing our jobs the way you don't think we should.

Honestly, I'm so tired of being told to drop grit and use more DA, then be called bad if I don't.

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youre bad, refer to my comment on page 1. No content requires fulltime grit atm

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

Unfortunately Thordan EX is the only relevant 1 I cleared... before Stormblood...

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LOL wow, and this is the person trying to insult tanks who dps. gtfo