Remove Frontline experiece NOW - Group majority of bots

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

Why salvage a second place when you get the same xp as if you got last?

Better to just let Maelstrom win and move onto the next match.

Why try when the only thing you get more for second place is worthless pvp xp and wolf marks for only so-so glamour gear?

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cuz you're part of a team...

rofl bot rampage

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

cuz you're part of a team...

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And? When your team is so far behind thats its irrecoverable then 2nd place and 3rd place have no distinction between them.

You are just trying to draw the match out instead of moving on to the next one you may hopefully win and not get shafted on xp.

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Originally Posted by Felis

Maybe the devs think that people joining PvP should do it for PvP

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Lets take away every achievement like mounts, minions, music, tomestones, exp and only leave wolf marks to get PvP gear. How many people would still play PvP? Before the Garo event the wait times were quite high and creating PvP maps and modes do take time and costs money. So for SE the best would be that as many people as possible are playing this content. Thats probably the reason for the Garo event and thats the reason for exp. If you take this away and leave with only true PvPers you may have to face the possibility of not getting much new content because its not worth it for SE.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Lets take away every achievement like mounts, minions, music, tomestones, exp and only leave wolf marks to get PvP gear. How many people would still play PvP? Before the Garo event the wait times were quite high and creating PvP maps and modes do take time and costs money. So for SE the best would be that as many people as possible are playing this content. Thats probably the reason for the Garo event and thats the reason for exp. If you take this away and leave with only true PvPers you may have to face the possibility of not getting much new content because its not worth it for SE.

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Let's take away every reward/mount/achievement/gear/glam/minions from every single content, you got a dead game. That's irrelevant, you can kill any aspect of the game that way. Most complains were not coming from the fact it brought reward, but from the fact it doesn't give any incentive to win.

What is so astonishing in the fact you have to play a mode the way it is to get rewards? You are actually playing when you're in a dungeon with the aim of clearing it to get full reward, right?
You're running PotD, you do your job well, then one guy of the team start pulling three room at once then you die. You got no xp, no item, no rewards at all. But I have yet to see complains about this.

Pvp rewards must be based on participation as ANY other content. The current system is bad that's all, devs need to look into a way to reward people according to their own performance, but that need time.
Dev put the system the wrong way twice: 1st giving free exp for anyone without giving incentive to winning, 2nd by giving 2nd and 3rd places the same xp.

This system was bad from the start, if from the start we had different tier of rewards the same way it was for garo, I doubt people would have complained

How about you stop asking for all the rewards to be stripped away?

Are those actually 'bots' anyway? Or are they just players who are AFKing for the rewards?

Either way, ask to punish the offenders, not those who want to play PVP and be able to level at the same time.

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

Why salvage a second place when you get the same xp as if you got last?

Better to just let Maelstrom win and move onto the next match.

Why try when the only thing you get more for second place is worthless pvp xp and wolf marks for only so-so glamour gear?

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I see it now, the exp isn't it? If that's the mentality, I have to be frank and say that I don't want people like these in PvP, even if it costs us queue time.

I play PvP to WIN. I play to crush my enemy...or at the very least, lose to as few of them as possible. The win, the high placement, the spectacular plays, etc, themselves are rewards.

You are exactly right, "worthless pvp xp and wolf marks": these matter little to me, to many of us who take PvP seriously (heck, wolf marks are capped so often that I constantly have to buy something). But why do we try you ask? Because PvP is not PvP anymore if you don't gun to be as good as possible.

There are too many AFK/Bots to even pass vote dismisses against them. Incredible.

PvP shouldn't give PvE rewards, the exp reward was a mistake, and it's even more painful after see how the reworked all classes to play in a different way in PvP.

PvP needs PvP reward, but SE is always half way to do the right thing.

I kinda agree with the OP. Even lv up a dps is easy now. I have BLM, MCH and WHM at 70. Getting my DRG too tomorrow (he is 66)

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

Why salvage a second place when you get the same xp as if you got last?

Better to just let Maelstrom win and move onto the next match.

Why try when the only thing you get more for second place is worthless pvp xp and wolf marks for only so-so glamour gear?

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This is the logic that led to the xp difference between winning and losing. Why try at all when the rewards are the same in first, second, or third place? Though yes third place should get even less xp than second.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

This is the logic that led to the xp difference between winning and losing. Why try at all when the rewards are the same in first, second, or third place? Though yes third place should get even less xp than second.

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Exactly. Before I saw more people run around not caring even when we still could win because they only wanted the EXP. What SE needs to do now is make second place more rewarding than third.

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Originally Posted by Kasenai

Aether frontlines are literally infested with bots. The past few hours there's been alliances where the bots vastly outnumber the players :confused:

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Are you telling me the EXP nerf did nothing to deter bots? :thinking:

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They should have buffed the experience for winning, not nerfed the experience for losing. You still needed like 10 matches to get a level anyways, so it was just nice enough to be a good change up from PvE.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

This is the logic that led to the xp difference between winning and losing. Why try at all when the rewards are the same in first, second, or third place? Though yes third place should get even less xp than second.

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At least before the xp change I got more matches with people trying.

Now its "Oh did *insert GC here* get the bot team?" cause the losing team just starts to progressively stop playing the farther behind they get.

Unlike before the xp change where they would fight tooth and nail to try to claw their way back up.

Seriously, all the xp change did was bring more toxicity and giving up then before.

It's funny how people are just NOW complaining about bots because it's affecting their leveling in PvE whereas this has been an issue for months in the actual PvP thread yet people were like "lul it's a PvE game don't need to care". Kind of sad that everyone wants their leveling EXP because of the que times but are so lazy and SE won't do anything for the bots since they've been running rampant for almost a full year.

Not to mention the bots in actual ranked Feast and in the early mornings of NA data center times where before SB during the last 2 PvP seasons, there was nothing but bots you'd either stomp them in 2 minutes or get stomped because you're on the receiving end. But it's okay the bots will still carry on as usual i've reported numerous bots, everytime I go into Frontlines or the Feast that's all you can really do the rest just ignore and don't report or make the effort which in hindsight is whatever, but it still helps.

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

At least before the xp change I got more matches with people trying.

Now its "Oh did *insert GC here* get the bot team?" cause the losing team just starts to progressively stop playing the farther behind they get.

Unlike before the xp change where they would fight tooth and nail to try to claw their way back up.

Seriously, all the xp change did was bring more toxicity and giving up then before.

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Based on your comment all you have to go on is your personal experience. I'm sorry but the logic doesn't follow. There was more incentive to bot and do nothing and afk before than there is now.

Maybe if there were more alternatives than speed running corridors after waiting in line for an hour people would do that...

Honestly, if i can gain a level while cleaning the house or have to mash the X button and live in my own filth, i rather enjoy the double tasking of cleaning up.

Also, EXP is an archaic game play mechanic anyway.
What exactly is the point of an artificial 1,000 hour grind?
There should be one level. Level 1.
I really have no issue with making the pointless fill crap that is an exp grind as simple as i possibly can.
I've got other things to do with my time, as i'm sure, do many of you.

Isn't it a bit sad we have to spend the next two years grinding levels rather than enjoying the content?

I'm going to go sweep the floors now. ;)

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Originally Posted by NefarioCall

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Justify it all you want. Bots are bad for an MMOs community... you know that thing an MMO is built around. You knew what type of game experience you were getting when you bought the game so whining about an exp grind is just ridiculous. As "archaic" as it is most games include exp grinds. Even games where exp isn\\\\'t explicitly placed on the screen will put you into some form of grind. This is how they keep you invested in the game. And if you seriously have THAT much to clean up that it takes up ALL of your free time you might want to look into a lifestyle change.

If you don\\\\'t want to put the time in, then don\\\\'t do it. Do what you want but don\\\\'t drag others down just to satisfy your selfishness.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6k9pgKPcxS0
If this isn't enough to think there are bots in frontlines (mainly in shatter) I don't know what else is. And this was a while ago but at the time of this thread, its probably more appropriate, and sorry I know this is a not so active thread right now since 4.1 but there hasn't been a change, just had a 3 or 4/8 of the party of bots recently and it angered me.

I don't think anyone doubts that bots are in frontlines.

But considering how long bots in general have been allowed to thrive despite explicitly being noted as something that's prohibited in the game's ToS, it feels unlikely they'll ever actually do anything about it.

The process of eliminating them is as simple as:

1. Receive report claiming that player is a bot.
2. Send player multiple tells.
3. If player ignores said tells and keeps carrying on with whatever they're doing, then ban them. You don't need fancy software to figure out if someone is botting or not.

The fact that all of the bots that I've reported several times since I started playing a year ago are still around suggests that they're either not even trying or said bots have a primitive auto-response system that's fooling them into thinking they aren't bots (And yes, they did actually do this in other games I played, and were programmed to respond only to tells from GMs).

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Originally Posted by Kasenai

I actually just put that as clickbait to make sure people would have a look, but there's been several games today where the bots outnumber the players. It's something SE needs to deal with quickly. It's difficult to kick them out when it's 6/8 players in your party.

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It does need addressing, bot SE has a problem with dealing with bots in general. They still allow gather bots despite people reporting them. I think part of the problem is how SE expects you to report them, a lot of people are not going to bother when the method of reporting them is some online forum to the STF and they are not going to take the time to do that when they see no results.

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

PvP xp was nerfed, so people feel more inclined to just not try when they see they are losing.

Its no big surprise to see people standing around cause they are in last place. Looking at the point values in your picture the most efficient thing to do in that situation is... stand around and let maelstrom win so you can go into another match.

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I'm sorry, but what kind of defeatist crap is that?

It's PvP. It's competition. If you don't care about competing - about winning (and thus getting more XP), you're wasting your time, and others as well. Go run any other non-competitive content that gives more XP anyways. PvP is not the place for that kind of crap logic.

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Originally Posted by AriaFairchild

I see it now, the exp isn't it? If that's the mentality, I have to be frank and say that I don't want people like these in PvP, even if it costs us queue time.

I play PvP to WIN. I play to crush my enemy...or at the very least, lose to as few of them as possible. The win, the high placement, the spectacular plays, etc, themselves are rewards.

You are exactly right, "worthless pvp xp and wolf marks": these matter little to me, to many of us who take PvP seriously (heck, wolf marks are capped so often that I constantly have to buy something). But why do we try you ask? Because PvP is not PvP anymore if you don't gun to be as good as possible.

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I. . . kind of love you. :)

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Originally Posted by aCQQK13

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6k9pgKPcxS0
If this isn't enough to think there are bots in frontlines (mainly in shatter) I don't know what else is. And this was a while ago but at the time of this thread, its probably more appropriate, and sorry I know this is a not so active thread right now since 4.1 but there hasn't been a change, just had a 3 or 4/8 of the party of bots recently and it angered me.

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You are right to be angry.

A number of inconsiderate selfish rectums are ruining your ability to do something you enjoy. I doubt SE will ever do something about them in PVP.

Sure remove xp from PvP and see how many ppl actually join. Most ppl don't care enough about pvp or the rewards(that only go to 100 ppl at most per data center) to bother. Remove the only reward for even bothering to join a match and you soon won't have anyone to play with.

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Originally Posted by ElazulHP

Sure remove xp from PvP and see how many ppl actually join. Most ppl don't care enough about pvp or the rewards(that only go to 100 ppl at most per data center) to bother. Remove the only reward for even bothering to join a match and you soon won't have anyone to play with.

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Queue times were less than 5 minutes at the end of 3.x before the addition of XP. That was true for both The Feast and Frontlines.

Your comment about only rewarding 100 people? That is for Ranked Feast ONLY, the botting problems are mostly in Frontlines.

Please, if you are going to comment, at least know what the heck you are talking about.

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Originally Posted by ElazulHP

Sure remove xp from PvP and see how many ppl actually join. Most ppl don't care enough about pvp or the rewards(that only go to 100 ppl at most per data center) to bother. Remove the only reward for even bothering to join a match and you soon won't have anyone to play with.

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We've been over this before. Here's a thread that largely disproves your statement.

Also, PvP existed for more than 2 years without XP before Stormblood, and it had a dedicated, legitimate, COMPETITIVE community, even if it was small. Far less bots (if any), far less exploiters, and far MORE people who actually knew what to do and were competitive enough to do it without caring about rewards. Which BTW, we did get tomes for. I personally hadn't run an Expert roulette in 4 solid months at one point, but capped weekly.

So stop with this nonsense about people not wanting to PvP without XP. XP farmers and people who just want to exploit it won't, sure, but for those that actually enjoyed PvP, we did, and we would again.

I really only PVPed to get aether for my relic weapons, and for all the Garo gears. Haven't touched it more than twice since SB hit, and that was as a RDM, simply because I didn't really care enough to keep doing it on a daily basis when I had all my other roulettes, and limited time(don't always get through my roulettes daily unless it's the weekend either). So, if the EXP stays, or gets taken away, I don't really see it changing anything other than the bots who are in there JUST for the EXP stop entering.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

I'm sorry, but what kind of defeatist crap is that?

It's PvP. It's competition. If you don't care about competing - about winning (and thus getting more XP), you're wasting your time, and others as well. Go run any other non-competitive content that gives more XP anyways. PvP is not the place for that kind of crap logic.

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This is a stupid argument. There are all sorts of people. There are those that want to reach the goal and don't give a damn about the road towards it, but there are also the ones that want to make most of it and enrich their end.

I don't care about competition and whenever I did PvP, I did it for rewards (though honestly, I did it only before 4.0, as since then I just have no need for what PvP rewards). However, it's a party-based content and I despise holding others back when I can help it. So I did give it a fair try, trying to win till the end. The only difference is that even if I was part of the losing team, I didn't beat myself over it.

On a different side of the spectrum, there are the psychotically competitive players that want to show that "they are the best" to the point they are just plain toxic...ironically, often going out on their own and messing up the teamwork by trying to show off how "best" they are. And even with few PvP runs I did, I still managed to come across those competitive sorts that order others around, then give up halfway with a stupid excuse of "since we can't win anymore, what's the point of doing it?! I'm here only to win.". And you know what?! The most prominent time that happened, our team went from a third-place by far, to nearly winning. And we WERE held back by the one with the most bark and "competitive spirit".

The problem is entirely with the mentality of people not caring about others, wanting only the best for themselves. This mentality is FREQUENT in competitive players! There is no problem in non-competitive players that will stop trying if they see little chance of winning, even if they tried their best. That's one way how "change" happens. The weak players leave, stop feeding the strong, the strong lose their "meal", they thin out, the weak ones come back and the strong ones eventually catch on. This is natural and overall healthy, as (so long as there is an odd number of factions) it gives all sides some chances to win, thus enticing them to try.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

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SE doesn't share your opinion since they just raised the XP amount instead of removing it per the 4.1 patch notes. That thread you linked to is completely pointless. You have too small a polling size to accurately represent the amount of people that play the game. 100 people from the pvp sub forum who already likely enjoy pvp and would pvp regardless of what SE does or doesn't do won't accurately reflect the opinion of the millions who play. Sorry, but I trust SE decision over some rando on the forums. PvP has bigger problems right now then XP. It's down right boring and the only reason I bother with it is because Tomestones are easy to cap spamming matches & Leveling a DPS from 60 to 70 is faster in PvP when you're out of roulettes and other forms of XP since other queues take 30+ minutes to enter vs the couple of minutes to match into a PvP match.

I would be the first to agree I suck at pvp ,but i try to always to my best . And i know I am fighting against bots when i get more kills than deaths ....
You know what killed pvp for me ? Not the exp drop (i could care less) , not the pvp know-it-alls giving orders , not the bots or the "base guards" afking .
No , it was my inability to have a remote chance to kill a healer , never mind if there are two together.
I was watching guides and trying thing to get better , but when i saw 4 of us struggle to kill a running away healer ,i gave up .

Make it so xp gain when your alliance loses is on par with Leves and that should solve the problem.

EXP needs to be removed completely. It doesn't matter how much they nerf the EXP in Frontlines, bots are still gonna bot because it is free, guaranteed EXP. Not only are botters ruining the PvP experience, they are leveling all jobs while not even "playing". Other worthwhile sources of EXP at least needs you to be actively present. I've only seen one botter in a dungeon and it was quickly noticeable and we kicked him. You can't kick them in Frontlines when they are the majority. Reporting does nothing.

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Originally Posted by ElazulHP

SE doesn't share your opinion since they just raised the XP amount instead of removing it per the 4.1 patch notes. That thread you linked to is completely pointless. You have too small a polling size to accurately represent the amount of people that play the game. 100 people from the pvp sub forum who already likely enjoy pvp and would pvp regardless of what SE does or doesn't do won't accurately reflect the opinion of the millions who play. Sorry, but I trust SE decision over some rando on the forums. PvP has bigger problems right now then XP. It's down right boring and the only reason I bother with it is because Tomestones are easy to cap spamming matches & Leveling a DPS from 60 to 70 is faster in PvP when you're out of roulettes and other forms of XP since other queues take 30+ minutes to enter vs the couple of minutes to match into a PvP match.

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Wow, where do I begin with this one?

First, they increased PvP XP. Read it again carefully.
Second, the thread is hardly pointless as the question was generally asked, and more people - even if a small sampling answered and said they would. Logic would then dictate that there ARE people who would PvP because they actually want to PvP and not for the XP. If that's what you use it for, that's fine, but don't complain about lengthy queues to me. Please don't. I'd waited much longer than 30 minutes for both dungeons AND PvP, and that was when PvP didn't give XP at all. Also don't try to play the numbers game. "Millions" of people don't even play this game. Should they dictate what should and shouldn't be part of it?
And as far as the "I trust SE's decision" bit, when it comes to PvP. . . whew, man. You really need to go read those PvP forums some time. Where PvP is concerned, I couldn't say "I trust SE's decision" with a gun to my head.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

This is a stupid argument. There are all sorts of people. There are those that want to reach the goal and don't give a damn about the road towards it, but there are also the ones that want to make most of it and enrich their end.

I don't care about competition and whenever I did PvP, I did it for rewards (though honestly, I did it only before 4.0, as since then I just have no need for what PvP rewards). However, it's a party-based content and I despise holding others back when I can help it. So I did give it a fair try, trying to win till the end. The only difference is that even if I was part of the losing team, I didn't beat myself over it.

On a different side of the spectrum, there are the psychotically competitive players that want to show that "they are the best" to the point they are just plain toxic...ironically, often going out on their own and messing up the teamwork by trying to show off how "best" they are. And even with few PvP runs I did, I still managed to come across those competitive sorts that order others around, then give up halfway with a stupid excuse of "since we can't win anymore, what's the point of doing it?! I'm here only to win.". And you know what?! The most prominent time that happened, our team went from a third-place by far, to nearly winning. And we WERE held back by the one with the most bark and "competitive spirit".

The problem is entirely with the mentality of people not caring about others, wanting only the best for themselves. This mentality is FREQUENT in competitive players! There is no problem in non-competitive players that will stop trying if they see little chance of winning, even if they tried their best. That's one way how "change" happens. The weak players leave, stop feeding the strong, the strong lose their "meal", they thin out, the weak ones come back and the strong ones eventually catch on. This is natural and overall healthy, as (so long as there is an odd number of factions) it gives all sides some chances to win, thus enticing them to try.

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Let me give this one my full attention.

First, let's not paint with broad strokes. It is entirely possible to be both competitive and compassionate. I know quite a number of PvPers in this game that are exactly that. Putting that aside, let me not mince words here: there is nothing wrong with being non-competitve. There is EVERYTHING wrong with being non-competitive in a competitive environment. You don't have to care, but you do have to try.

We already have a big enough problem with players shying away from challenge even in PvE. That's just not an option in PvP. Gonna lose? Take your lumps. But do it on your feet. Rolling over only guarantees you both lose, and learn nothing. Rolling over means you deserve nothing. Letting a team win just so you can end the match quickly and perhaps try again is pathetic, and if that sounds bad, that's because it IS. No one has to be the best, no one who currently is the "best" is just naturally that way. But I can guarantee the "best" players never let someone win just so they can maybe get a better chance. Do that, and you'll always be "letting" people win while looking for that guaranteed chance. Nothing is guaranteed except failure when you give up.

As for a winning player's mentality, let me try to paint a different picture: Those of us considered "good" or "competitive"? We were new once too. We got stomped. We lost a lot too. The difference is we didn't give up. We paid attention. We sought out information to get better. We listened to those who knew better and supported our teams. We weren't just making a crap shoot for a reward. We took those slim chances to turn around a game. Sometimes it worked. Sometimes it didn't. We didn't give up. I can't say it enough. We didn't give up. No one who fought hard to get good enough to win is ever going to "let" someone else win, and that idea has no place in a competitive environment. You want XP from PvP? You want some shiny reward? You better fight for it, cause all those other people want it too. Do they deserve it more than you? If your answer is No, then please tell me what kind of sense it makes to "let" them win?

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

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If you don't trust the developer of the game you play then what are you still doing here? Obviously, they don't share your "vision" if you can call it such a thing. So instead of complaining just leave. SE doesn't care. I don't care. People that bother to read these forums or post in these forums are a minority. The average player just wants to log on and enjoy themselves and PvP is simply not enjoyable. However, the rest of the game is great. So, I do trust them more than I trust any of you in the forums. If nothing else because they're the ones with access to all the internal info. None of you guys have access to that information. Everything discussed in these forums is based on what tidbits they deign to throw our way or what is data mined from the game files. In other words its largely speculation. By all means speculate away in an endless circle jerk with the other pvp fanatics if it makes you feel better.

Here's the problem with that line of thought:

The moment you start shuffling your players into levels of importance based on whether a majority or a minority, you start down a very slippery slope. . . Say they did just get rid of PvP because the playerbase for it is a minority. What's next?

Not a lot of MCHs and ASTs, so they can go right?
Not many people play Roes. They can go, right?
Savage raiders? They're a minority still. They can go.
Balmung and Gilgamesh are full! Oh no! Meh, it's just 2 servers out of all of them. Whatever, right?
Hmm. . . only a few players have houses. Oh well! Housing is fine!

See where I'm going there?

Now, your little tantrum aside, I don't agree with a lot of PvP-related decisions they've made. That doesn't mean I hate PvP in this game. In fact I love it enough to actually TRY to be heard. I love it enough to teach other players who are interested rather than perpetuate the going misconceptions that have largely hindered its growth (even despite SE's missteps with it) these last 4 years. Your statements make it clear that you really don't know of which you speak when it comes to PvP. But hey! SE doesn't care, you don't care, and the "average" player just wants to log on and enjoy themselves, but PvP's not enjoyable?

Then why are so many of these "average" players PvPing now, and defending having XP in PvP? I mean, it's not enjoyable right? They could be running dungeons, or PotD, or doing fates; you know, anything more fun than that awful PvP that gives less XP than those anyways, right?

Now then, I do strongly recommend you actually read up on a few topics in the PvP section before trying to make a rebuttal. Might I recommend the almost year old "The New Chat Restriction In The Feast" where it took them 3 months and 40 pages to then ask for suggestions and feedback - all of which comprised the first 39 pages? Or perhaps all the ones about players wanting them to do something about the bots and wintraders, both of which have still gone unanswered? Or maybe the one where they admitted "Whoops! We didn't have enough time for balance changes before Season 5, but we're starting it anyways! Please give us your feedback for necessary balance changes"? (Spoiler Alert: Almost none of that feedback went into the balance changes at that time.) How would you love that approach to something you like in game? How would you love someone to come along and say "Whatever! SE doesn't care, I don't care, so it's not a problem! I trust their decision!" (Despite the fact that they don't care, right?)

Rather than trying to defend weak points with even weaker reasoning, read up and be a bit more informed about what you're trying to chime in on like that one person said.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

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Except, catering to the majority of your customers is exactly how big business works. You keep the majority of the customers happy which keeps the money flowing into the company which keeps the stock holders happy as well as everyone in the company employed to keep making content for everyone. Tweaks to classes relate to balance as a whole which is pretty big in keeping the majority of players happy. You and your small group of PvP "purists" are a minority in the bigger picture here. SE likely wants more people playing PvP which means attracting more players. How do they attract more players? By giving more incentives to play PvP which means XP, Tomestones, other rewards, ect. Removing PvP XP goes counter to what they're trying to do. The reason they probably increased XP is because they saw a drop in people playing PvP when they initially reduced PvP XP. Don't like it? Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out. SE is first and foremost a business and businesses exist to make money. The only way they will capitulate is if you hit them where it hurts by voting with your wallet.

Also, speaking of tantrums you might want to check yourself m8.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Let me give this one my full attention.

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Unfortunately, you didn't understand what I wrote, full attention or not.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

First, let's not paint with broad strokes. It is entirely possible to be both competitive and compassionate. I know quite a number of PvPers in this game that are exactly that.

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I said that egoistical behaviors are frequent in competitive players, not that all competitive players are like that. It's natural, it's how "competitiveness" is made. In its purest form, it is simply the drive to outdo others for your own gain. This is a fact. It is also a fact, that humans have a tendency to mix and mash stuff, so there are some people that change that pure form to include others that they consider allies. But the more competitive the player is, the rarer that becomes.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Putting that aside, let me not mince words here: there is nothing wrong with being non-competitve. There is EVERYTHING wrong with being non-competitive in a competitive environment. You don't have to care, but you do have to try.

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You're mixing words. Competitiveness is not the same as being dutiful. A dutiful player will give it their all, because that's expected of them, because what they are doing affects others. A competitive player will give their all cause they just want to win, but fundamentally, nothing else matters. Sometimes not even their own fun.
A dutiful player can still give their all in a competitive environment, without the actual competitive spirit. A player that gives up halfway or sabotages the group to just have it end sooner...it's not a problem of lack of competitiveness, it's a problem of them being egoistical slackers. Two different things.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Take your lumps. But do it on your feet. Rolling over only guarantees you both lose, and learn nothing. Rolling over means you deserve nothing. Letting a team win just so you can end the match quickly and perhaps try again is pathetic, and if that sounds bad, that's because it IS.

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And this proves best that you did not understand what I was trying to say.
In no way, shape or form did I condone such behavior. Quite the opposite, I pointed out how wrong it is...and that it is also present in people that are competitive. In reality, competitiveness actually does NOT mean "trying till end". There are few things that will make a player try till end that both competitive and non-competitive players can have. Being dutiful, enjoying the content, being fanatical or being petty are the ones that come to mind. All that you said makes me believe that you are dutiful...and that's exactly what I was supporting to begin with.

In the end, you are basing your post on a lot of misunderstandings. There is one archetype of what "competitive" and "non-competitive" means to you, and you assume it applies to all individual representatives of these two groups. It does not, because this is not a vacuum. There are other personality traits that largely modify the outcome. Some are more frequent in a group, others are less so. But they appear in both.

The post you made that I responded to was "painting with broad strokes", something you said not to do. It completely ignored the existence of players like me, that though do not seek competition, still do actually try till the end doing their best as far as their abilities go. Maybe not necessarily high, for the lack of experience, but hey. You implied it yourself. There's nothing wrong with being new, what's wrong is not trying.


Don't blame non-competitiveness when that's not the culprit.

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Originally Posted by ElazulHP

If you don't trust the developer of the game you play then what are you still doing here?

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Perhaps because we still care. The devs are far from infallible. Look no further then the numerous balance issues that have plagued PvE. They insisted Paladin would never have magical mitigation due to their "vision." That stance changed when Paladin basically spent the entirety of Heavensward as a meme, and now it does exactly what the community wanted two years prior. On the PvP side of the equation, the devs clung to their silly GC restriction for two years despite numerous complaints. They were even embarrassed on their own live letter event by a 45+ minute queue. When they finally removed the restriction, PvP activity increased tremendously. Simply put, many players are better at the game than the developers. They post their complaints and offer feedback in the hopes improvements are made.

People who PvP enjoy PvP, and want it to be successful. Judging by the bot riddled mess Frontlines has devolved into, it isn't.

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Originally Posted by ElazulHP

How do they attract more players? By giving more incentives to play PvP which means XP, Tomestones, other rewards, ect.

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And you know how they lose players? By ignoring the fact a large amount aren't actually participating but merely botting for free experience. None of these players will remain once they have accomplished their respective leveling goals, but actual PvPers who enjoy the competitive nature will abandon it for better alternatives, which has already happened. Furthermore, it's a terrible metric to offer rewards that only benefit other modes and not the way you're actually engaged within. Literally nothing benefits PvP. They should be overhauling their PvP EXP system or offering rewards that cater to PvP interests, not PvE. As previously noted, PvP was fine once the GC restriction was removed. The inclusion of EXP has caused far more harm than good to the longevity of PvP.

I will say yes, there IS a difference between a competitive and dutiful player. In the absence of a competitive one, I'll take a dutiful one as, like you said, they will at least do their best. That is a far cry from that other person's idea of "letting the other team win to get it over with quickly".

That said, let's not make competitiveness sound like a bad thing. There are extremes, yes, but barring that, being competitive doesn't mean winning above all else, even your own fun. After all, isn't it more fun to win? I won't spark up the old "I play for fun" debate as that has its own flaws, but being competitive doesn't mean you're not having fun. Competition itself can be part of the fun. At higher levels, I know most competitive players enjoy a good fight more than an easy or guaranteed win.

Where my post diverged was both addressing you, and the original statement I criticized, and I perhaps wasn't clear between the two. What that other player said about letting another team win to get it over with is not okay at all, and I stand by my words on that. That kind of defeatist mentality was not present in PvP before they added XP as a reward, and it has no place there, competitive or not, XP or not. But it can't be overlooked that it became an issue once XP was offered, and that's a reason why some players who actually want to enjoy PvP want to see XP removed.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

-SNIP-

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I agree with all of what you said.

Sorry that I only have but one like to give.