SMN...and SCH broken

SMN seems fine to me. Sure it could use some tweaks but I don't mind it. The rotation at 70 is really fun. I can get up to 6k dps lol

Just read the tool tips...really its not that hard :x

The skill floor and ceiling of SMN was raised -a lot-.
By having the same average awareness and CPM, I do a lot worse than before. I don't think I can concentrate on the job while raid leading anymore.

I'm clearly not a top SMN by any means, but I know how to recognize that my job is now more demanding. Yes, it can pull good numbers. But you have to be up for it.
Basically, if you s*ck, SMN s*ck. If you're good, SMN is good. This is probably the only job in the game with such a skill variance. Compared to RDM, they are like day and night.

SE took the concept of "multiple sources of damage" and raised it to a whole new level. SMN is an extremely busy job.

Oh and, Demi-Bahamut is a real pain for both the SMN and teammates because of how much screenspace it has. Especially the wings. I often need to position myself in such a way that I won't disturb people with my giant dragon. I made more than one player fail a mechanic because of them not seeing a marker or something. Buuuuut that kind of off topic. Personal rant. Sorry.


SCH, on the other hand... Well, it's quite sub-par compared to the other healers. I can see SCH being in a party for speedkills, but that's pretty much about it. WHM is king in casual content and definitly strong in raid (don't get me wrong, the lily sytem is still sh*t, but it doesn't prevent the WHM from being really good), and AST is still AST, and even better than before.

While relatively complex, SMN is still playable and very fun. DRG on the other hand...

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Originally Posted by CecMiller

The bad thing about summoner is missing 1 aetherflow and you're screwed. 1 Tri disaster + early fester means you're down on your luck for a good minute and sets everything back by a minute. This happens even to the best players.

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Thats true but no argument for a skillchange-request. There are several ways to avoid it you can use a macro which times your first fester (bad idea though), you can take ruin ll as a filler between tri and the first fester, or even rudas con as filler between tri and fester – if you can't get the timing right by yourself its not automatically a "whole community problem" nor bad skill design .___.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

The skill floor and ceiling of SMN was raised -a lot-.

I'm clearly not a top SMN by any means, but I know how to recognize that my job is now more demanding. Yes, it can pull good numbers. But you have to be up for it. Basically, if you s*ck, SMN s*ck. If you're good, SMN is good. This is probably the only job in the game with such a skill variance. Compared to RDM, they are like day and night.

SE took the concept of "multiple sources of damage" and raised it to a whole new level. SMN is an extremely busy job.

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absofuckingloudly right! :3

its weird to ready that so many player say smn now is clunky as hell... cause actually they aren't – you just have to put more effort into it to find a new flow. you wanna a "op" output? than you also have to play "op". easy like that. Dps on smn isnt a gift on a silver plate anymore - you actually have to work for it now - and that is great. CecMiller is absolutly right about this manner:

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Originally Posted by CecMiller

The fun (and imo) the good thing about summoner is catering your rotation to every fight. There is always something you can improve in each and every fight.

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I personally like that so many left this job atm – being a good Smn actually means something again. :o

I'm not concerned about fixing the current max dps other than it is greatly effected by my inability to do things while I am busy re-summoning my dead pet.

1. Give us back Sustain

2. Fix their health regeneration because its broken slow. Make pets not paper thin skinned as they currently are or give some form of better hp regen.

3. Shorter leash or /Closefollow
If you can't do the above, make pets run with and underneath their summoner and not at a distance which makes avoiding aoe's pointless because the pet will get hit, and die because his health just sits there and does not regen. I also have to spend a lot of time heeling him to my side just to get him that tiny bit of space closer to me. A close follow ability would be nice.

4. Put pets on the party list
If you cannot do any of the above at least put pets on the party list so healers can focus them without being bothered by trying to search for them in the party.

5. Give us a useful healing ability for pet other than Physick- See #1 and 2.
If you cannot do any of the above, give us a better mnd rating so we can heal them ourselves.

I don't have issues with encouraging teamwork, if that's what SE is trying to do here.. but if the pet is part of the party it should be on the party list. As it stands I need to ask healers to regen/heal my pet so that I don't have to constantly resummon him when I should be dpsing and avoiding aoes. Spending my time worrying about my pet is what preoccupies me now and I don't think it was intended.

word.

I guess #4 would be my personal favorite hmm...

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Originally Posted by Neela

its weird to ready that so many player say smn now is clunky as hell... cause actually they aren't – you just have to put more effort into it to find a new flow. you wanna a "op" output? than you also have to play "op". easy like that. Dps on smn isnt a gift on a silver plate anymore - you actually have to work for it now - and that is great. CecMiller is absolutly right about this manner

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Which is ironic because, if I remember correctly, the devs' goal for 4.0 was to make rotations more streamlined and "easier". On the current SMN, one wrong move and your DPS dreams all goes down the drain.

in general its a shame that they made a lot of things way easier than we were used to not just rotations... I'm working in marketing as well and can't understand why their intention goes "pro new player con veterans"... - new player tend to leave after a trial phase or some month later... the veterans on the other hand are the base who pay their bills in a long term... well after all its not on me to judge this mindset : /

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Originally Posted by Neela

Because most people just took a quick look at raw potecy. They are not aware of how often r4 procs, how much dmg Bahamuts shockwave adds, how much the aetherskill cd reduce adds and how often you can refresh your dots without hardcasts. -> it seems most of the complainers haven't tried the cls on 70 themselves. That's why ^^

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This! and to add to it... the fact that Ruin 4 reduces enkindle coodown by 10s per cast... and R4 procs OFTEN, your talkin' multiple casts of the enkindle ability more so than ever before... So those claiming the job is nerfed, PAHLEZ!. Me and my carby gon' keep on stompin. Wut!

Bane is fine for SMN because Shockwave and Ahk Morn are OP. I hope they split SMN and SCH soon. Let SMN keep DoTs and Ruin as it fits their style.

SCH's Ruin line should be replaced with that new unsuspected magic spell that the snake beastmen cast (Spark). Then have Spark upgrade to Broil. Then at 50, instead of Shadow Flare (now SMN only), we get an AoE Broil called "Meltdown" like SCHs Tabula Rasa spell in XI. AOE 200 potency with diminishing damage on additional mobs, additional effect Blind.

From what I read, Drg suffers the most in downtime (or deaths). Was my old main and I should level it to 70. Though I want to get Rdm to 70 first... currently 52. Ugh... PotD.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

Snip.

And as said, an good RDM suffers a lot more than a good SMN in that fight, depending on stuns and mechanics.

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Well lets put something to bed:
Top 100 parses Susano EX:
BLM: 3299-4295 DPS
SMN: 3344-3922 DPS
RDM: 3701-4200 DPS

Guess all those summoners must be real bad at the class. I told you SMN does worse than susano EX and the logs just prove me right. RDM needs nerfs or SMN needs some changes to help it do better. Those saying summoner is overpowered in this thread have no clue what they're talking about.

How does the same statistic look on Laki? : o - sad that the fflogs thread seemd to be deleted right at the point where the discussion got interessting.... .__.

To agree with you on one point I also don't think that Smn is overpowered but neither that bad that it needs a tweak - for me he's just fine we got pretty nice utilities as well - we don't have to be on top of dps as long as we can provide a fair enough amount...which we do, dontcha think so? : /

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Originally Posted by Neela

How does the same statistic look on Laki?

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Susano and Lakshmi are very similar in terms of numbers (not -actual- numbers, but ratio and positions). A few notes:
- Tanks: PLD is clearly ahead in Susano, but WAR is close on Laksmhi (but still behind PLD). DRK is far behind in Lakshmi (I don't really know why).
- Healers: consistant between Susano and Lakshmi (ie. SCH 1st, WHM close second, AST way behind but doesn't account for Balance).
- Melee: SAM is OP in both fights. DRG is complete trash.
- Ranged: BRD is far above MCH, while having more group utility. I don't even...
- Caster: RDM is above everyone else. SMN is the big looser, while being the hardest to play. Go figure.

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Originally Posted by CecMiller

-snip-

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No amount of proof is good enough for these people. As long as they like the way the class plays, SMN can parse however it wants and they won't care, so long as a theoretical target dummy says SMN does the most of casters. What good is theory if it's never put into practice?

And practice says you're right. I don't care how people feel about the class. There's absolutely no reason a class should do more damage than another in that role when it has more utility and is easier to play.

If you like how it plays, good for you. But SMN is clearly inferior, and no amount of "but Bahamut" is changing that. The class needs to be properly rewarded for its difficulty.

Kinda true I personally don't care not being top dps but it's strange that easy ones got this amount and more complex ones are screwed... one way or another it won't stay like this - buffs and nerfs will come, like they always do ^^

Yep, buffs and nerfs will definitely come along. It's just bemusing that people really think SMN is overpowered in any vein.

At first they say it's crap like hell now they say it's op - not worth a discussion for now it's kinda okay - challenging and fun if you take a bit of effort into it, that's all what's matter at least for me ^^'

<eyes open wide>

Putting the pets on the party list so the Healers can see them easier... whoa.

But what would happen if you got a party that was, say, 2 tanks, 2 SCH, and 4 SMN? :yoiks: :D


I'm not seeing a problem with my DPS. Things die. I live. My TitanCarbuncle dies occasionally, but not all that often. And I still love love love dropping Deathflare on stuff, even though it ISN'T optimal DPS. Fa-WOOOOSH! BURN!!!

:laughing:

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Originally Posted by itti18

summoner is very strong right now , maybe even a little op

they do more damage than melee classes except SAM according to the new stone sky sea dummy hp
and they have strong utility as they can buff physical and magical damage

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Hitting something that doesn't fight back isn't a good measure for damage as there will be mechanics that force you out of position. Dummies are there for practicing your rotation and nothing else really.

Summoner seems fine to me. Scholar feels like it's mechanically/conceptually on the right path, but they HEAVILY undertuned the numbers or tacked on unnecessary gates and negatives. It feels sort of like release-Astrologian. They had a goal in mind, overnerfed things to achieve that goal, and then left all of the new stuff too weak or restricted. For example, does the Fairy really need to be unable to move while executing Fey Union? Chain Stratagem lasts 15s and has a 2 minute CD, and thus might as well not even exist considering it's essentially just a crit chance increase. Excogitation is barely stronger than Lustrate, has the same Aetherflow cost, and will often do absolutely nothing because tanks don't often drop below 50% in duo-Healer situations. All of these issues can be fixed, but the ideas behind SCH's kit seem acceptable.

Or perhaps I'm just disillusioned by comparing it to WHM, which has a TERRIBLE concept and mechanic. (Note- WHM is actually better off than SCH and can perform better in content, but their new mechanics are simply trash and boring)

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Originally Posted by Inosaska

Hitting something that doesn't fight back isn't a good measure for damage as there will be mechanics that force you out of position. Dummies are there for practicing your rotation and nothing else really.

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Also I'd like to add that SMN dummy parses do a rotation that is not used in a normal fight. You have to rush your trances and wyrms to squeeze extra ones in, but in a real fight your next 2 minutes after the dummy rotation would be like a wet noodle.

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Originally Posted by itti18

summoner is very strong right now , maybe even a little op

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i play my self SMN and this is not true! have you see fflogs already? SMN in a real fights is one of the weakest dps now near DRG.

regards hobbit

Sigh even now after 4.06 summoner is still broken. Yeah, they gave us 10 more potency for Bio III and Miasma III BUT THAT WASNT THE PROBLEM! Ugh, the biggest and I mean the BIGGEST issue with summoner is how aetherflow is used now. It has a long cooldown and on top of that once you use the three charges you have your locked out of using it until you're done with dread wyrm trance, One of the easiest fixes they could do that would please us summoners would be to not lock us out of our aetherflow and reduce its cooldown just a little bit.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

Can we just stop for a second and talk about how we can no longer heal our pets? wtf? As a sch it's not much of an issue.. just party member #5. But as smn you have no more options.
Also is it just me or are the pets being hit way more by boss mechanics compared to before? I end up just using swiftcast for raising my pet now Oo

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I'd say it's just as much of an issue on SCH, sure the Fairy can heal itself when it's damaged, but that's the main issue for SCH's. If I could just tell that little shit to stop spamming embrace on itself and cast whispering dawn instead of having to wait for the perfect moment in between embrace casts it wouldn't be so frustrating manually controlling my little shit, I mean fairy.

Hey guys! What kind of opener do you guys do when the PUG group doesnt wait for your aetherflow to come off cooldown after a wipe?

http://ffxivrotations.com/tg3

this one won't work. and i can't get the timing of rouse right because of it.

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Originally Posted by itti18

summoner is very strong right now , maybe even a little op

they do more damage than melee classes except SAM according to the new stone sky sea dummy hp
and they have strong utility as they can buff physical and magical damage

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Stone Sky Sea Dummies are a terrible indication of how strong a class is.

Machinist dummies required more dps then a bard dummy, despite Machinist having terrible dps. Only took doubling some of Machinist's potencies, like their 400 potency attack to 800 potency, doubling the damage increase from overheating and buffing the duration of their self buff to be a minute long for it to be good.

IMO dummies are really bad for seeing what a DPS can do. They get you raw numbers if you are doing "nothing" else but dmg. In raid content you are not doing just dmg. There are several variables that a dummy can not account for. Having to stop what your doing to move out of an aoe, deal with a mechanic, the boss is off screen/invulnerable and can't be targeted for a time, adds, someone dies and needs a rez, "you" die and need a rez.
SMN is not OP. I wouldn't go as far as say broken but we need some work.
Pets are clunky and unresponsive
Sustain was removed and if our pets are taking dmg we may have to resmn them
Bahamut is cool but he can block the screen and you can get clipped by an aoe
Bahamut prioritizes moving instead of attacking
Bahamut has a lot of range but he insists on being latched to your backside
If a smn dies we lose all our stacks for aetherflow, DWT and bahamut. That is like 2 mins of work down the drain and we have to start over.
Devotion is a cool buff but it only targets one person and that's the person closest to our pet. If we got ifrit and everyone is stacked on the boss's butt there's no telling who will get the buff. RDM's buff is party wide. I don't need to do that math to tell you 8 people getting a buff is more value than one person getting a buff.
Shadowflare is instant which is good but it's on a longer CD. Less forgiving if the boss has to move. Example, when Halicarnassus decides to jump to a tile and do a mechanic.

This is just me and my static so not a representation of all SMNs place in the DPS kingdom. On savage 1-3. I have been using this link as a guide https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...d3LQBPy1E/edit. I am not doing the perfect rotation all the time but if I don't die or have to rez someone I tend to get anywhere from 3400-3800. Our blm gets 3800-4200 every fight. He even swaps to RDM once in awhile and his dmg is almost the same with a weaker weapon. He has the augmented tomestone weapon for BLM, susano's weapons for RDM.

I am in a weird place with SMN cuz I started to level it cuz of all the complaining, and i actually ended up enjoying the job. In HW I just got it to 60 and shelved it cuz I did not enjoy its class mechanics and synergy. That said alot of the complaints seem to be about "muh deeps" and since I am used to bard, I just see SMN as a dps with good damage and good group synergy (using my bard as an example that would be great group synergy with ok damage) Ironically one of the "insults" ive seen chucked at MMO class design is the "need" to make every class pull the same numbers some devs (wow cough wow) opt for, and imo FF 14 atm is doing a good job of creating group synergies around a "support" structure vs DPS. Issue is i guess that everyone just wants to be "big $%#^" DPS ing it :P

The people trying to convince me "balance" was a mess directed me to the FFLOGs site and that gives a pretty good correlation of performance to "class identity" in actual situations. Quite frankly the balancing is freakishly good if you go by the logs. ( i strongly advice you "look" before reacting to seeing them and make sure you are seeing the actual numbers not the percentiles alone)

I have no problem with Summoner. They seem OP to me. He kills things faster than my Red Mage..and is a lot less squishy because of its pet.

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Originally Posted by ArcanoJones

I have no problem with Summoner. They seem OP to me. He kills things faster than my Red Mage..and is a lot less squishy because of its pet.

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Somehow it's kinda cute to read :3

But you can't compare classes on their progress - wait until you got both to 60 than compare them for a quickview - not enough difference? Move on to 70 & endgame you won't ever repeat your op-statement again ;)

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Originally Posted by Gumbercules

I am in a weird place with SMN

Quite frankly the balancing is freakishly good if you go by the logs.

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Freakishly good? Not quite. It took Buffing Summoner's Tri-Disater from 800 potency to 1000 potency for Summoner to get close to Red Mage.
The Balance is Better, after they buffed Summoner's dots by 20% but Summoner should be higher damage then red mage, or should have better buffs. Devotion being laughably bad.
Currently Summoner will only outdps a Red Mage when either A. There are multiple targets for the Summoner to attack, or B. There is an instance where the Red mage, is unable to attack whereas summoner can attack via dots, or pet. Example of this? Susano ex Lakshmi ex O1s and O2s. Red Mages outperform a Summoner in these circumstances. No reason to Bring a Summoner here, when Red Mage personally out damages a Summoner, and boosts raid damage more with Embolden.

In o3s, Summoner squeezes ahead of red mage because of Add fluff, (Literally like a group of Ninja's show up and an Iron Giant that Summoner's can fluff their numbers with deathflare/ahk morn.) Then also get a slight advantage when the party is forced to turn into different animals. Red Mage has no dots, and if a red mage isn't casting, they do effectively 0 damage. Summoner can apply dots and their pet attacks for the duration of that time, keeping more damage uptime on the boss. O3s has several mechanics, such as forced march where a red mage is doing 0 dps. And even then a Red Mage is boosting the overall raids dps with embolden which makes the dps difference, non existent.

This is obviously assuming that A. The summoner doesn't die. If a Red mage and a Summoner were to both die, the Red mage would have much higher dps with weakness then a Summoner would.