Echo seem be still need

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Originally Posted by DracotheDragon

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There is nothing interesting about that last trial. As I already said nothing is even remotely on that level the whole MSQ. It's a sharp spike in difficulty.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

Why do you only know the difference between "savage" and "braindead"? And why do you assume that everyone who isnt raiding doesnt like a little challenge once in a while. LITTLE: No one is saying this has to be savage difficulty. And you know what? It isnt. Why do you assume that anything harder than faceroll-easy is to much for someone who just wants to see the story?
I find this attitude insulting to anyone who actually plays this game casually - because you're basically saying "yeah, you're to stupid to handle anything that goes beyong pressing 3 buttons" so we have to make this very, very easy for you.

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Hurray for twisting what I said. As expected of the XIV community. I'll say YET AGAIN. NOTHING up to that point measures up to that difficulty. You can't go from 1 to 2 to 20. You ease into it. THAT is my issue with it. All the dungeons leading up to that don't present anything remotely close to the challenge of that fight. So yes it is, in fact, way overtuned.

As for the Savage point that is because this community (or at least a very vocal minority) get up in arms about anything not being Savage level difficulty.

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Originally Posted by DracotheDragon

well then time to raise the bar, even if just by a bit. (ignoring the jump poitons for the moment) this is level 70, by now, players should understand the basics of there jobs and be able to play quite well or at least on a adaquite level. thats why people were asking for a hall of the intermediate, so people could learn harder battles and skills.

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Job difficulty is different than raid/dungeon difficulty, the issue with this fight stems from player error and attitude, this fight requires near perfect execution in some areas, if a tank or healer goes down your chances of getting through it drastically decrease, it's essentially Thordan EX but with much much higher damage output, and given Thordan EX was among one of the most mechanical demanding fights of 3.X, the moment people see one or two wipes, they quit. Add the fact the new people who didn't preorder are getting in this area, the amount of cleared players running it vs new feels like 3:1.

People arent going to clear this easily unless they get matched with people who have a understanding of the fight, or they realize this is all the mechs of other fights meshed together, and can properly communicate, but the likelihood of people properly communicating and having the right attitude in this game, is very rare so to speak.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

this fight requires near perfect execution in some areas, if a tank or healer goes down your chances of getting through it drastically decrease

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You mean like every story dungeon ever?
You are grasping at straws now.

If you can't clear the final boss... git gud.

The game won't give you a "instant win" button. All you need to do to get through that fight... is just play the game. That is all. If you don't know how to, Hall of Novice exists for that very reason. Dodging and paying attention to the mechanics is the core of the gameplay in this game. Can't do that? This is not the game for you, go play something else.

nor do anyone want instance win button mind you that make the game boring

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Originally Posted by RaizeGraymalkin

Hurray for twisting what I said. As expected of the XIV community. I'll say YET AGAIN. NOTHING up to that point measures up to that difficulty. You can't go from 1 to 2 to 20. You ease into it. THAT is my issue with it. All the dungeons leading up to that don't present anything remotely close to the challenge of that fight. So yes it is, in fact, way overtuned.

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I'm willing to agree with you on "nothing leads up to that" - but you know what? You can ask for two things here: either "make the last boss as easy, boring and dull as the dungeons we had before" OR "please introduce a better learning curve with dungeon and trial bosses that prepare you for fights like this". Personally, I'd prefer the later. Nerfing fights is a shortterm solution for a longterm problem that is: people cant handle fights that are more than pressing one button because they never have to. Because most dungeon mechanics are almost optional.
Yes, that might not prepare you for Shinryu if you're unwilling to learn and pay attention throughout the game and clutch to the believe that you got through every dungeon just fine (because your party carried you...) but we dont need to nerf that fight, we need to prepare people better for it. Granted, thats propapbly over now, but asking for a nerf is a step in the wrong direction. You complain people arent being prepared for difficult fights and now you want to take a difficult fight that could prepare them for the next not-braindead-dull storymode away?

Maybe its time that we raise the bar for the entire game a bit* - not lower it on fights that are comitting the crime to actually want you to do things and pay attention.

Can we please also note that the game is out for a few days only? And that even without nerfs it will get easier to get past through it once there arent 8/8-df-blind-parties anymore - Titan HM used to be hard enough for people to buy and sell runs and today its in the trials-roulette (and I dont recall that it got heavly nerfed...)

*please note that I said "a bit" - I do not mean savage-levels. Not even close to that. But I've been healing all ARR and HW dungeons I did lately while watching a movie (I'm not highlevel enough yet to try SB) and I'm pretty sure I fell asleep for a few seconds tanking dungeons during the past days - I havent looked at the bard-changes yet, so I'm sure I played pretty bad, yet my party made it through the Vault (a level 57 dungeon where you should be expected to know how to play - and no, dont give me that "jump potion"-bs. If you buy a jump-potion I expect you to put some effort into research. I wont treat a level 60 person like a level 15 one) easly.
And that all of that is possible - a healer watching a movie, a tank sleeping and a dps not knowing their rotation - in highlevel dungeons shows that those are to easy and that there is enough wiggle room to make them a little more challenging without making them impossible for "casual" people.

TL;DR.: For harder dungeons, not easier trials!

I love that it requires a little bit of effort to complete. It kept the monkeys locked out of my dungeons and primal farm pts while I got geared. It was enjoyable the first time watching all the miqote and lala players face tanking the floor on msq content lol

Maybe I'm dumb but I found the last boss of the level 70 dungeons "harder" than Shinryuu. It was all "new" mechanics and happening all at once. Shinryuu on the other hand was a cakewalk, 3 wipes and we cleared. Mind you it was a 8/8 duty finder blind party x'D

I appreciated the spike in difficulty.

It made the fight feel that much more epic and not just slightly more difficult than the dungeon. I wanted the boss to feel like a powerhouse, with strength that our main character would struggle for their life to fight. You know, a final boss.

Not just another stepping stone.

30% Echo didn't stop people dying to Twisters in T5, it isn't going to stop you dying from avoidable mechanics in any other content.

I have to ask SE to NOT patch the echo in for the final boss fight, it's almost PERFECT.

It's supposed to be difficult and acts as a major "check" for players going into post game content. Keep the fight feeling epic even on normal.

At least let it set a few patch cycles before echoing it.

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Originally Posted by Aronys

You mean like every story dungeon ever?
You are grasping at straws now.

If you can't clear the final boss... git gud.

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Thordan, The Praetorium, Cape Westwind, Castrum Medridianum, Susano, Lakshmi, Bismarck, and Ravana, are a few fights that don't require both tanks and healers, and can be done via a solo method to complete, I can go further but I rather not embarrass you anymore, so I think you need to "git gud" and go back to learn your history of fights in this game.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

Thordan, The Praetorium, Cape Westwind, Castrum Medridianum, Susano, Lakshmi, Bismarck, and Ravana, are a few fights that don't require both tanks and healers, and can be done via a solo method to complete, I can go further but I rather not embarrass you anymore, so I think you need to "git gud" and go back to learn your history of fights in this game.

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He was talking about dungeons - you're talking about trials. You know, dungeons - those things with only 4 people. If your one healer dies during a bossfight in a dungeon - how are chances to clear that fight? If your tank dies - how chaotic does the fight get?

Trials are having that little bit of back up because you've normally got two of each role - but in a dungeon: you're the healer, you die, chances are its a wipe. Some trials might not require both tank and healer, but pretty much all dungeons need the one tank and the one healer there is to function properly. And thats what he was talking about - when you reach the final battle, specially as tank/healer, you should have went through several story dungeons that are indeed requiring you to pay attention.

(I'll admit that doesnt hold totally true - as a main paladin I've healed through several bossfights during SB-dungeons because the healer died now...)

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

Thordan, The Praetorium, Cape Westwind, Castrum Medridianum, Susano, Lakshmi, Bismarck, and Ravana, are a few fights that don't require both tanks and healers, and can be done via a solo method to complete, I can go further but I rather not embarrass you anymore, so I think you need to "git gud" and go back to learn your history of fights in this game.

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When that content was first released, I really doubt there were groups that would clear it without the tanks or healers.

Right now? Sure. But now the people that enter the dungeon/trial is people who have run it plenty of times and are overgeared for the content.

When I cleared the current final Trial in the MSQ almost everyone, including myself, were less than 10 iLvl over the min and it was their first time through it. It was rough, but we managed a clear with only 2 wipes, and both wipes we brought it down to 10%.