Shield Oath makes Sheltron useless.

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Originally Posted by Dalmacus

I really like the previous sheltron better. I rather take the 30secs cooldown than this 50 oath bullshit. I swear this oath gauge feels forced upon PLD.

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Was going to say this. They added it to sheltron to justify the gauge. Plain and simple.
So they added magic defence to sheltron and then took sheltron mostly away. We call that a "derp"

You can sheltron every 20s in sword stance.

You can sheltron every 2 Holy Spirit + 2 blocks (and you get one block free with sheltron...), which takes all of 3 seconds to do (~20s again, if you include the combos needed get the mana for it).

So...basically, you can use it even more often, but with more control over when to use it.

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Originally Posted by CaptnYesterday

Was going to say this. They added it to sheltron to justify the gauge. Plain and simple.
So they added magic defence to sheltron and then took sheltron mostly away. We call that a "derp"

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You can use sheltron approximately 50% more often under the new system, while in shield oath.

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Originally Posted by Furious

You can use sheltron approximately 50% more often under the new system, while in shield oath.

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Nope. Reasons:
1. "50% more" is gated behind your 2xHoly Spirit, which takes away from other meaningful actions if the only reason you are casting Holy Spirit is to activate Sheltron. Clunky AF
2. Holy Spirit is not free. Now you are eating into mana that you may have wanted for something like Clemency, right?
3. Pre L64 content does not even have this situational option

Just because you can technically do something does not negate the argument that, in 'real world' terms, is still a loss. We still call it a "derp".

Holy spirit is essentially our damage rotation now though. After you get far enough in threat your rotation is literally holy spirit til oom, then authority combo to gain mana back. You have a ridiculous amount of oath at your disposal. Along with that, clemency is easy to plan. If you know the encounter you know exactly when you're going to need something like clemency and you can just plan ahead.

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Originally Posted by CaptnYesterday

"50% more" is gated behind your 2xHoly Spirit, which takes away from other meaningful actions if the only reason you are casting Holy Spirit is to activate Sheltron.

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What "meaningful" action ? Holy Spirit has the highest potency in a single GCD of PLD's whole skills...

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Originally Posted by Dalmacus

I swear this oath gauge feels forced upon PLD.

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They honestly should have just left Sheltron alone and kept the oath gauge and its related usage to 60+ gameplay where its more relevant. It feels weird that a mechanic designed around 60+ skills for heavy building impacts something pre-60 so heavily. The 50 oath cost is ridiculous, and a 5 second cd is pointless when mechanically it can take longer then 30 seconds to rebuild that much oath outside of popping Bulwark for the block chance boost every 2-3 minutes. It makes Oath feel like something you need to hoard specifically for boss fights and nothing else.

Pre-SB Sheltron was an awesome mitigation skill when you knew something big was coming, you needed MP or shield swipe was off cd. If its so easy to build oath at 64+...why is an early 50 skill being strangled so viciously for no reason other then they needed to crowbar in a mechanic to make oath a thing at earlier levels?

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Originally Posted by TheGodchild

It makes Oath feel like something you need to hoard specifically for boss fights and nothing else.

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Again, holy spirit is going to be a heavy part of your rotation. You won't need to hoard oath because you'll have a ton of it.

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Originally Posted by Kyt

Again, holy spirit is going to be a heavy part of your rotation. You won't need to hoard oath because you'll have a ton of it.

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At 64+, sure. What about 52-63? I was more implying that pre-64 content you're just going to be hoarding oath for boss fight sheltron use and nothing else because its hard to build up in shield oath and that's the only use for oath in that level range.

The game and class balance are balanced around lvl 70. Samurai's entire life changes after they hit 66, and summoner is incredibly slow until you hit your later SB spells. Call it a design flaw if you want, but that's how things are. You don't need sheltron for anything under max level anyway

At the low end I understand it. Is the shield gauge is ridicously slow to fill..

The high levels don't seem as bad. But the bit that concerns me most is this paladin relegated to off tank talk.

If that ends up being true then yoshi has failed at balancing all tanks for main and off tank viabilitiy.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

At the low end I understand it. Is the shield gauge is ridicously slow to fill..

The high levels don't seem as bad. But the bit that concerns me most is this paladin relegated to off tank talk.

If that ends up being true then yoshi has failed at balancing all tanks for main and off tank viabilitiy.

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Who's saying pld will be relegated to offtanking? I definitely don't think that will be the case. With magic blocking coming into effect and just the sheer amount of damage mitigation (and now dps we have with holy spirit) I think pallys will be in the best position to solidify themselves as the go-to main tank choice.

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Originally Posted by CaptnYesterday

Nope. Reasons:
1. "50% more" is gated behind your 2xHoly Spirit, which takes away from other meaningful actions if the only reason you are casting Holy Spirit is to activate Sheltron. Clunky AF
2. Holy Spirit is not free. Now you are eating into mana that you may have wanted for something like Clemency, right?
3. Pre L64 content does not even have this situational option

Just because you can technically do something does not negate the argument that, in 'real world' terms, is still a loss. We still call it a "derp".

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Holy spirit is a 450 potency nuke that will usually be increased by 20% by requiescat when you are casting it. Let your healer spend an extra gcd on healing while you spend an extra gcd on doing high efficiency damage, generating enmity, charge gauge, and damage. If you really need to heal yourself as well, you still can, and will still come out on top in terms of number of gauge uses vs. heavensward provided you don't stop casting holy spirit.

Start by changing your assumption that holy spirit is something you want to avoid; it is the primary damage ability in your single target arsenal. It is the goal, not the fallback.

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Originally Posted by TheGodchild

At 64+, sure. What about 52-63? I was more implying that pre-64 content you're just going to be hoarding oath for boss fight sheltron use and nothing else because its hard to build up in shield oath and that's the only use for oath in that level range.

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Who cares? It's not important enough to worry about. You'll generate it quickly during sword oath, and also when you are using bulwark or aoe tanking (which covers 90% of the time while leveling - you're either in sword oath questing or aoe pulling dungeons).

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Originally Posted by Maeka

It just seems kinda dumb to take away one of the few interesting buttons on the hotbar almost entirely because of a spell you don't get until 64 (why not make the spell available sooner if it is so crucial to the whole setup!?).

So you get Sheltron at 52 but it is useless while Main Tanking (and while Off-Tanking lol) until Level 64, and its only use is while you are Soloing. Okay. That makes sense.

Here's another idea: Holy Spirit available at Lv52-54 instead of 64.

Wouldn't break any sort of balance at Lv70 whatsoever.

EDIT: Also, anybody got numbers as to how much MP HS actually costs? Because um, you need to cast it 2-3 times to get enough Oath for 1 Sheltron, and half of Sheltron's use was to recover MP for, you know, Clemency? Do you even return enough MP to pay for the Holy Spirit casts?

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Make Riot blade also feed into the oath gauge when in shield oath, that way you can build oath to use for Shelton, but drop the MP recovery on Shelton since increased use of riot blade will generate a lot of extra MP.

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Originally Posted by Furious

People don't learn to play their class until they have the abilities in totality;

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You're undervaluing pacing in class growth. When you add new abilities, it's either because you're introducing the player to the basics of a new system (Blood of the Dragon), building on something that is already there (combos are a good example of this), or fill niche uses for specific situations (CC, debuffs, AoE abilities).

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When you get sheltron at 52, you will likely spend a lot of your time questing in sword oath, where you generate charge at a rate of 5 per gcd nearly continuously, and will have regular uses of the block available. In dungeons, when you use shield oath, you will have less, but you also don't need any.

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Which underlines the problem of the system not being fully functional for 12 levels.

Let's take Blood of the Dragon as an example. Upon getting it, the DRG starts off with a buff that increases jump damage. You start using it around the time you use your jumps on the rotation, and that's it. At 56 you receive the ability to extend the duration of BotD with Fang & Claw. At 60 you get the Geirskogul, which consumes some of the BotD duration. So you go from starting out with a buff, then getting an ability that deals good damage that also extends the buff duration, and lastly a skill that reduces duration/consumes the buff. That's how a well-paced system is introduced to the player, as you're building up the system from a very basic level (buff that improves jumps) and then adding the ability to manipulate the system to your advantage in combat.

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If they were to increase the rate you generate shield charge in any other way, it would necessitate reducing the oath generated by holy spirit, which is the entire point of the new system; a cyclical rotation between physical attacking for ~75% of the time, generating some minor charge, then supercharging with holy spirit, then back to generating mana with physical attacks.

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I don't think reducing Oath generated by Holy Spirit would undermine the system. It would simply make the system not hinge so much on Holy Spirit. You yourself have said that Holy Spirit's damage alone is enough to get the player to use it, so by that logic the nerf to Oath generation wouldn't be much of a loss.

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The whole argument that people learn to play their classes as they level is and always has been a ridiculous one.

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So you're saying I'm the exception and not the rule, as this is pretty much how I approach learning classes in every game I've played (also why I have initial trouble with level-jumped classes). It's also why I've paid close attention to pacing when I put my suggestions together, because having a disjointed system hanging over you with the promises of "it'll work properly later" is not a good feeling to have.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

You're undervaluing pacing in class growth. When you add new abilities, it's either because you're introducing the player to the basics of a new system (Blood of the Dragon), building on something that is already there (combos are a good example of this), or fill niche uses for specific situations (CC, debuffs, AoE abilities).

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You're overvaluing it. Learning in steps like this causes early abilities to be overvalued in the late-game development of playing habits, often being used in critical keybinds because that's what they're used to.

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Which underlines the problem of the system not being fully functional for 12 levels.

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No, it doesn't? It specifically doesn't in the manner I said. The system is as functional as it needs to be for the content in question. You generate charge quickly when you are aoe tanking (eclipse came in at 46) and when you are in dps stance (which you use most of the time while questing). For the needs of the leveling paladin, you generate charge fine. It's not as fast as endgame, and it doesn't need to be. Boss abilities at level 50 aren't dangerous to tanks like they are in max level raids.

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Let's take Blood of the Dragon as an example. Upon getting it, the DRG starts off with a buff that increases jump damage. You start using it around the time you use your jumps on the rotation, and that's it. At 56 you receive the ability to extend the duration of BotD with Fang & Claw. At 60 you get the Geirskogul, which consumes some of the BotD duration. So you go from starting out with a buff, then getting an ability that deals good damage that also extends the buff duration, and lastly a skill that reduces duration/consumes the buff. That's how a well-paced system is introduced to the player, as you're building up the system from a very basic level (buff that improves jumps) and then adding the ability to manipulate the system to your advantage in combat.

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You're explaining what the system is and attributing that as the WHY that it is a good thing. I know what stepped learning is, but I am saying that it is the wrong way to learn when the goal is performing well in content that will actually challenge you to perform well using the entire package.

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I don't think reducing Oath generated by Holy Spirit would undermine the system. It would simply make the system not hinge so much on Holy Spirit. You yourself have said that Holy Spirit's damage alone is enough to get the player to use it, so by that logic the nerf to Oath generation wouldn't be much of a loss.

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Reducing the system's reliance on holy spirit definitionally undermines the system of using holy spirit to generate charge, and using physical attacks to generate mana for holy spirit. Reducing holy spirit to only be a high powered nuke makes it incidental rather than integral. You do more damage, but mechically function the same by reducing or ignoring the new holy spirit spender/generator system. If you ignore holy spirit when it generates the majority of your oath gauge, you lose out on primary defense mechanics and you devalue the role of mana regeneration (it becomes essentially a dps resource rather than a defensive one).

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So you're saying I'm the exception and not the rule, as this is pretty much how I approach learning classes in every game I've played (also why I have initial trouble with level-jumped classes). It's also why I've paid close attention to pacing when I put my suggestions together, because having a disjointed system hanging over you with the promises of "it'll work properly later" is not a good feeling to have.

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You're not the exception to the rule, but the rule is, and always has been, wrong. MMO games revolve around character progression and that is why you will very rarely see one that gives you all your abilities on day one, but that's not because it's the best way to learn how to play your class as a whole, even if that's the stated goal.

In practice this is a difference of opinion and we aren't going to agree, but when it comes down to it oath gauge works just fine when you get it and improves as you go. The degrees to which both occur are incidental.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

At the low end I understand it. Is the shield gauge is ridicously slow to fill..

The high levels don't seem as bad. But the bit that concerns me most is this paladin relegated to off tank talk.

If that ends up being true then yoshi has failed at balancing all tanks for main and off tank viabilitiy.

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PLD can comfortably do both and be equally effective now, unlike in HW.

Why in the world are you so obsessed with sheltron? You don't even need it in most content at all.

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Originally Posted by Furious

The resource does not generate slowly while under shield oath. I can't believe this is such a hard concept to grasp.

You will be casting 5 holy spirit per minute at a MINIMUM as part of your normal rotation on paladin. 5 holy spirit generates 100 energy. 100 energy gives you two uses of sheltron. 2 uses of sheltron per minute means one use of sheltron per 30 seconds, which is exactly the same rate as the old sheltron was available - only now it can be banked and used back to back if required, where before it couldn't.

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Reading what you've quoted and its original context, the point seemed very, very clearly to be on the dependence of Shield Oath on Holy Spirit and the BASE (pre-HS) generation of gauge under Shield Oath. But that my have been a hard concept to grasp, too?

While I'll agree with your points since, that doesn't stop Shield Oath's gauge accretion from feeling undertuned and overly dependent to me, and apparently to some others as well. It's as simple as that.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Reading what you've quoted and its original context, the point seemed very, very clearly to be on the dependence of Shield Oath on Holy Spirit and the BASE (pre-HS) generation of gauge under Shield Oath. But that my have been a hard concept to grasp, too?

While I'll agree with your points since, that doesn't stop Shield Oath's gauge accretion from feeling undertuned and overly dependent to me, and apparently to some others as well. It's as simple as that.

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Well, I'm probably not going to change your mind on it, but it's basically the entire point of the new paladin setup. Req into holy spirit to generate gauge, then gauge and physical attacks to generate mana, then mana to generate gauge, then.. so on.

Moving generation away from holy spirit and into passive generation devalues and relegates the importance of holy spirit away from a rotational necessity for defense and resource generation to a dps gain (and reduces the opportunity cost of using your mana to heal instead). The rotation of paladin switches from an A>B>A>B setup to an A... oh and B if you aren't gonna die and wanna do more damage. A is the fight or flight, goring blade, royal authority "section" that passively generates mana, while "B" is the requiestcat is up, go to town and refresh your oath gauge (which will later regenerate mana and possibly save a lot of damage). It needs the too and fro to work well in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Furious

Moving generation away from holy spirit and into passive generation devalues and relegates the importance of holy spirit away from a rotational necessity for defense and resource generation to a dps gain (and reduces the opportunity cost of using your mana to heal instead).

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I guess, there you have it then. I guess I prefer that.

Without a Ranged (since they stupidly can't take Diversion - seriously wtf?), or having both a Ninja and a Ranged, I open in Sword Oath with spare gauge from trash Requiescat, HS 6-7 times throughout the duration, Fast, FoF, Riot, SoC, SW, GB, keep tri-comboing with 2 more DSs worked in before the next Requiescat as not to overcap mana or gauge (because it's that much higher in Sword Oath), and I don't remotely lose threat, while getting far more DPS in the bargain.

On the off chance I have some bursty DPS who cannot or refuse to use enmity-reduction skills, I'll open in Shield Oath for roughly the same. If they're really bursty, I may have to open with a FoF RoH combo in Shield Oath, into GB, RoH, RoH, Fast, Riot, Sword Oath, Goring, late Requiscat, HS-spam.

But at no point is that bonus 100-120 gauge going to be worth the damage for me. I'd be losing 25-30 just over the case times, and the remainder bonus mana from the 2 bonus Shelltron, less than two HS in value, cannot bring me from 2 spare casts per minute to 5, which would be needed not to clip my last combo or delay my next Requiescat.

Admittedly, fewer RoH combos needed = more Riot Blade and Royal Authority, but that's a good 63 potency you're missing per GCD atop 25% of each skill itself... I still don't think it's going to close that gap, nor do I see why it would need to do so, let alone through HS.

Maybe I've just had too good of luck with 67/69 dungeon grind speedruns so far, which has cut me a lot more slack enmity-wise due to Shadewalker/Smokescreen or Diversion, but the optimal rotation doesn't seem to lie where you've listed as 'developer intended', at least in that context. And, honestly, given that most seems ultimately to come down to speedrunning... what exactly makes something inferior in how it affects clear times more optimal?

Sheltron does need rework. Casting holy spirit just causes to much mana strain on the PLD just to get enough oath to block a heavy tank buster.

As often as Susano does his water cleave hit would I like to pop Shelton for each one. Sadly I don't get enough oath and I end up taking the brunt of the attack.

Oath needs to be generated faster in shield oath or Shelton needs adjustment.

may I just add if no one has already, the block rate on the 310 shield is almost 2.5x the Alex(S) 270 shield... and now that you can block magic and physical attacks ,the blocks will roll in, let some time pass before saying you want things changed.

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Originally Posted by Sir_Hermes

may I just add if no one has already, the block rate on the 310 shield is almost 2.5x the Alex(S) 270 shield... and now that you can block magic and physical attacks ,the blocks will roll in, let some time pass before saying you want things changed.

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Generally block rates are adjusted by your level however, so a level 70 310 shield block rate being 2.5x the Alex shields block rate might mean it comes out to being the same actual % of attacks blocked. This is just speaking in theory of course, no actual idea what it is in the end.

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Originally Posted by Kerwin

Sheltron does need rework. Casting holy spirit just causes to much mana strain on the PLD just to get enough oath to block a heavy tank buster.

As often as Susano does his water cleave hit would I like to pop Shelton for each one. Sadly I don't get enough oath and I end up taking the brunt of the attack.

Oath needs to be generated faster in shield oath or Shelton needs adjustment.

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Mana strain? Holy spirit is embedded into our rotation now. You're casting 5 holy spirit per minute minimum, which gives you 2 shelltrons per minute, which is the same as HW. There should be nothing else you're using your mana on. Clemency is a highly situational ability that should be used when things are going poorly, or when you're offtanking, and you aren't using flash if you're tanking a boss for the most part. What else do you need your mana for?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I guess, there you have it then. I guess I prefer that.

Without a Ranged (since they stupidly can't take Diversion - seriously wtf?), or having both a Ninja and a Ranged, I open in Sword Oath with spare gauge from trash Requiescat, HS 6-7 times throughout the duration, Fast, FoF, Riot, SoC, SW, GB, keep tri-comboing with 2 more DSs worked in before the next Requiescat as not to overcap mana or gauge (because it's that much higher in Sword Oath), and I don't remotely lose threat, while getting far more DPS in the bargain.

On the off chance I have some bursty DPS who cannot or refuse to use enmity-reduction skills, I'll open in Shield Oath for roughly the same. If they're really bursty, I may have to open with a FoF RoH combo in Shield Oath, into GB, RoH, RoH, Fast, Riot, Sword Oath, Goring, late Requiscat, HS-spam.

But at no point is that bonus 100-120 gauge going to be worth the damage for me. I'd be losing 25-30 just over the case times, and the remainder bonus mana from the 2 bonus Shelltron, less than two HS in value, cannot bring me from 2 spare casts per minute to 5, which would be needed not to clip my last combo or delay my next Requiescat.

Admittedly, fewer RoH combos needed = more Riot Blade and Royal Authority, but that's a good 63 potency you're missing per GCD atop 25% of each skill itself... I still don't think it's going to close that gap, nor do I see why it would need to do so, let alone through HS.

Maybe I've just had too good of luck with 67/69 dungeon grind speedruns so far, which has cut me a lot more slack enmity-wise due to Shadewalker/Smokescreen or Diversion, but the optimal rotation doesn't seem to lie where you've listed as 'developer intended', at least in that context. And, honestly, given that most seems ultimately to come down to speedrunning... what exactly makes something inferior in how it affects clear times more optimal?

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I found this post incredibly hard to follow the point of, but what I think you are saying is that you.. do more damage by staying in sword oath rather than using shield oath and generating more gauge > mana > hs?

When you're in sword oath you're taking 20% more damage at all times than when you're in shield oath. Assuming you care about that 20% more damage reduction, you probably also care about having more holy spirits available and more shield gauge. I don't really understand why you're talking about optimal dps rotations and considering whether or not the fact that sitting in your damage reduction stance gets your more holy spirits, and whether that is worth doing - it shouldn't be, because you're not optimising defense or threat but damage.

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Originally Posted by Kyt

Mana strain? Holy spirit is embedded into our rotation now. You're casting 5 holy spirit per minute minimum, which gives you 2 shelltrons per minute, which is the same as HW. There should be nothing else you're using your mana on. Clemency is a highly situational ability that should be used when things are going poorly, or when you're offtanking, and you aren't using flash if you're tanking a boss for the most part. What else do you need your mana for?

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I'm looking to strengthen my DEFENSIVE abilities, and that's reserving my mana for Clemency. I don't want to burn it on Holy Spirit as a main tank (Especially with a huge damage reduction anyways from shield oath.)

I had a good idea though. Seeing how Shield Oath does not generate a lot of Oath Gage in per say a primal 1 on 1 fight why don't we have CLEMENCY generate Oath Gage as well? This will strengthen the role of a DEFENSIVE main tank.

Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Kerwin

Seeing how Shield Oath does not generate a lot of Oath Gage in per say a primal 1 on 1 fight why don't we have CLEMENCY generate Oath Gage as well? This will strengthen the role of a DEFENSIVE main tank.

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Can this be copyright claimed ? No ? Oh, crap... :p

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Possible "fix". Make casting any Divine Spell increase the Oath Gauge by 20. So, Holy Spirit and Clemency.

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Originally Posted by Kerwin

Thoughts?

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On top of increasing our defensive role, it would also make sheltron usage less clunky before Holy Spirit.

In 3.0, war could gain free stacks of wrath/abandon by using certain abilities like Raw intuition. Maybe they could work this sort of thing into Paladin so that using stuff like tempered will and cover would grand some gauge?

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Originally Posted by Ragology

In 3.0, war could gain free stacks of wrath/abandon by using certain abilities like Raw intuition. Maybe they could work this sort of thing into Paladin so that using stuff like tempered will and cover would grand some gauge?

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After that was especially removed from WAR ?! You really want them to hate PLD more :p

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Originally Posted by Kerwin

I'm looking to strengthen my DEFENSIVE abilities, and that's reserving my mana for Clemency. I don't want to burn it on Holy Spirit as a main tank (Especially with a huge damage reduction anyways from shield oath.)

I had a good idea though. Seeing how Shield Oath does not generate a lot of Oath Gage in per say a primal 1 on 1 fight why don't we have CLEMENCY generate Oath Gage as well? This will strengthen the role of a DEFENSIVE main tank.

Thoughts?

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Unfortunately, dps as a main tank still is an important stat. That's why you see tanks slot strength in materia slots. Your job isn't to heal yourself in raids. Obviously play however you want, but the fundamental way paladin is optimally played right now revolved around your 2 phase dps rotation and doesn't typically use clemency unless it's an emergency.

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Originally Posted by Kerwin

I'm looking to strengthen my DEFENSIVE abilities, and that's reserving my mana for Clemency. I don't want to burn it on Holy Spirit as a main tank (Especially with a huge damage reduction anyways from shield oath.)

I had a good idea though. Seeing how Shield Oath does not generate a lot of Oath Gage in per say a primal 1 on 1 fight why don't we have CLEMENCY generate Oath Gage as well? This will strengthen the role of a DEFENSIVE main tank.

Thoughts?

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Well then the issue isnt with the class its with the player, not our fault you're playing suboptimally. Holy spirit give you your highest damage AND builds gauge which can then be used for sheltron on tank busters, mitigating more damage than youd heal with clemency. You dont sound like the type of player who clears savage content or ex primals anyways so idk what you need more defense for, expert dungeon roulette? lol. The whole "im mt i dont need to do damage" is stupid, if you had that kind of mentality in a3s you would be booted before the pull. Its everyones job to push their dps to the limit, and you can still survive with proper CD management. I dont even use tank stance for susano ex anymore, the content is going the creator route, easy and accessible, even more reason to push dps as tanks and healers.