Can we get some sort of content gate for level 70 content?

All what we need are some solo MSQ trials to be a little bit harder, so the players can't just faceroll them, but still easy enough if they read the skill descriptions and think a bit.

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Originally Posted by Averax

(the average level of self awareness increased from dead tuna to sentient nihilistic pumpkin), and queues didn't take much of a hit. People who were bad were forced to learn and improve their gameplay to meet the most basic standards, or they were forced to sulk in their shame.

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This sounds like a band name.

And the proving grounds had a minor effect on improving the ability of your average random member. Which they then promptly removed in Warlords and Legion! Because the really, really, really bad players wanted to play still.

I don't think it can be understated how easy the Silver Trials were. They were the baseline for a player who can actually play the game.

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

This sounds like a band name.

And the proving grounds had a minor effect on improving the ability of your average random member. Which they then promptly removed in Warlords and Legion! Because the really, really, really bad players wanted to play still.

I don't think it can be understated how easy the Silver Trials were. They were the baseline for a player who can actually play the game.

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In all likelihood, the really bad players form a big enough chunk of the playerbase that not telling them to sod off is in the company's best financial interest.

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Originally Posted by Felis

All what we need are some solo MSQ trials to be a little bit harder, so the players can't just faceroll them, but still easy enough if they read the skill descriptions and think a bit.

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This would work well too, especially if it was a solo instance after hitting 70 so they have all the skills available to play with.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

In all likelihood, the really bad players form a big enough chunk of the playerbase that not telling them to sod off is in the company's best financial interest.

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Not asking them to sod off, asking them to demonstrate they can at least read the tooltips and make something slightly reasonable out of them

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Originally Posted by Averax

WoW things

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This.

I played WoW when WoD was out and used the jump potion that came with it. They had a training grounds to teach you all the skills as soon as you logged. What he mentioned: this Bronze-Silver-Gold trial you had to do with your chosen role. It helped me a lot. I wish XIV had this.

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Originally Posted by Averax

(bronze just makes sure that you are classified as a living organism)

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Sometimes I doubt if I'm playing with other living forms in DF. This is extremely useful to see if they are on this level of existance. Or alive, at least.

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Originally Posted by Felis

All what we need are some solo MSQ trials to be a little bit harder, so the players can't just faceroll them, but still easy enough if they read the skill descriptions and think a bit.

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The steps of faith in 2.5 was exact this. People complained too hard and it was nerf to the version we have now.

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Originally Posted by Dalmacus

The steps of faith in 2.5 was exact this. People complained too hard and it was nerf to the version we have now.

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You can't 'really' expect people to read NPC dialogue, especially not the ones that only casually play for the story... wait!

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Originally Posted by Daralii

In all likelihood, the really bad players form a big enough chunk of the playerbase that not telling them to sod off is in the company's best financial interest.

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A book doesn't stop you from reading if one is too stupid to understand what it means. One just keeps reading for no benefit.
Not being able to progress because a game is too hard doesn't stop you from playing the rest of the game in front of it. Heck, in both cases you'll probably get 'BETTER' and hopefully be able to continue onward.

I think companies and players drastically oversell how much they fear even slight and harmless failure. Failure is the greatest tool to help one improve.

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Originally Posted by Core1019

Not asking them to sod off, asking them to demonstrate they can at least read the tooltips and make something slightly reasonable out of them

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If you tell a faction of players to git gud or get out, how many people already at the bottom of the barrel are realistically going to make a solid effort to do so? It's borderline willful ignorance on their part considering Hall of the Novice, guildhests, SSS, and the tooltips exist, so why would pushing them more work?

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

I think companies and players drastically oversell how much they fear even slight and harmless failure. Failure is the greatest tool to help one improve.

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\O/ Praise the Sun!! Hehe, but seriously, given how Yoshi has gone out of his way to make everything in the game more accessible to the masses, I doubt anything that would make things even more 'difficult' to enter would ever be put in place. Especially given that he has stated that many of the changes (gauges, etc.) in SB are there to facilitate making dps easier, etc. While I don't oppose such things, I think that the probably 80% of the player base that doesn't read this forum, doesn't read reddit, doesn't even know 'rotations' or 'meta' exist, would oppose it. And it is that majority, not the minority here, that SE and Yoshi listen to and probably plot their data points/evaluative methods on.

I am seriously confused by the people who think this would help their runs. A min gear score ok. But we all know any trial will have a youtube video of the basic steps people will complete it and go back to playing the way they were before. If I was lazy and only wanted to press 2 buttons what makes you think I couldn't pass some sort of test that is suppose to be a basic proving ground. Maybe I am wrong, but the players that I see that might be considered sub par aren't bad. They just don't care netflix,homework,eating, or enjoying a moment of self gratification.

The only solution is community policing and that only works if you remove the automated grouping system. I don't think you can convince enough players to convince SE.

No. We can't.

Amazed that, with the stance Square Enix had for a while, elitists still think this game is made to cater to them,

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Originally Posted by Core1019

Even if it's something like a mandatory SSS dummy before the final boss trial, ilvl synced per class. Just something to prevent things like 'ice mages' slowing down roulettes or getting into ex primals?

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Given their primary development focus is accessibility I highly doubt something like this will ever happen.

Look, if you don't like how players play, don't advocate for nonsense draconian rules that hamstring all of us.

I don't get where this need to control all other player's experience comes from, but instead of this dictator nonsense just.....

MAKE A STATIC!!!!

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Originally Posted by Dalmacus

The steps of faith in 2.5 was exact this. People complained too hard and it was nerf to the version we have now.

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No. It is a group trial, not a solo trial where only your own skill get tested.

Blizzard tried this, it plus story failings lead to the biggest content drought expansion due to lack of players. Pass.

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

The only content gating I want to see--at least one that is realistically possible--is an ilvl check for all pieces of gear AND a check for the appropriate stat corresponding to the class.

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Found the Rift player!

Seriously though, they simply need to put class restrictions on accessories so people can't cheese the ilvl.

You are already scared, huh? Well news flash. When early access begins, nobody will know the tactics and everyone will be in subpar gear. If you don't want to struggle together, experiment, and have moments like when the tank DC's mid pull, wait a few days before starting the main scenario and form statics via Party finder. Leave content gates in wow where they belong.

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Originally Posted by Gabrielleblanc

Blizzard tried this, it plus story failings lead to the biggest content drought expansion due to lack of players. Pass.

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Which drought are we talking about here MoP, WoD or Legion? Either way this game has a small community as it is; content gating would only make it smaller.

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Originally Posted by Dalmacus

The steps of faith in 2.5 was exact this. People complained too hard and it was nerf to the version we have now.

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Actually. The issue was since veteran players had no motivation to do Steps of Faith more than once, many up and left as requeuing usually meant a faster run, especially as only one person gets the 30 penalty. This made getting access to Heavensward needlessly frustrating. The mistake wasn't difficulty, but not incentivizing it. The devs stuffed a sudden difficulty spike when alternatives were easier. So everyone did the latter. They need to commit from the beginning. Say Stormblood opens with dungeons on par with The Aery and Vault. Don't make any easier. That's your baseline.

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Originally Posted by Alestorm

Which drought are we talking about here MoP, WoD or Legion? Either way this game has a small community as it is; content gating would only make it smaller.

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WoD for this one, that was the expack where "Proving grounds" were required to do any content past leveling dungeons.

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

The only content gating I want to see--at least one that is realistically possible--is an ilvl check for all pieces of gear AND a check for the appropriate stat corresponding to the class.

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I think any iLvl checks should be weighted to the left side, since rings don't add as much to the mix. But in high level content is there an actual reason to check for appropriate stats? All gear is made for your role as far as i've seen. (By all gear, I mean main gear, not accessories. It probably takes two or 3 accessories to add as many stats as a good chest) one ring isn't going to matter much. And if you have a 260 chest and a 220 belt what difference would it make? It's still over 230 on the left.

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Originally Posted by ErikMynhier

Look, if you don't like how players play, don't advocate for nonsense draconian rules that hamstring all of us.

I don't get where this need to control all other player's experience comes from, but instead of this dictator nonsense just.....

MAKE A STATIC!!!!

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Thanks... saved me the trouble. The party finder is good for finding people who want their dungeons to run like well oiled machines to find others of like mind. The DF is for random chaos and wipes....but they pay you in tomes and stuff. If you can't stand healers who blow all their MP on AoEs or tanks who can't keep aggro, or DPS who forget not to stand in the fire, then don't roulette. Do you know how many loot coffers have been missed because some speed running tank just blew through the dungeon? Or how many speed running tanks have died because the rest of the PUG was looking for the loot while he was pulling the whole set of trash to the first boss? Actually, that one usually makes me laugh.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

This. Job quests could be made mandatory too and I'd have no problem with that, because finishing job quests should be the standard anyway. WoW's silver Proving Grounds was about as hard as job quests and MSQ solo battles.

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This is a good point, and honestly goes along with what I was going to say.

Gates like this don't help, as even if baddies struggle to get through it, they will get through it eventually, and then they'll just go back to not trying again.

I feel like the nay sayers are thinking that the gate will be some incredibly difficult test that will greatly shrink the viable population of players while the type of gate that most people are thinking of would be something more around the level of simply clearing the Stone Sky Sea for the fight. It is something you should be able to do if you are even thinking of attempting a fight and shouldn't be difficult at all.

For those saying to just make a static, not everyone has a stable schedule and thus are forced to use party finder. They shouldn't have to be forced to deal with people who don't even know their class rotations, such as ice mages. Is it really too much to ask for people that know the basics of their class?

This shouldn't be that hard of a content gate to clear and shouldn't shrink the population at all.

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Originally Posted by Dalmacus

The steps of faith in 2.5 was exact this. People complained too hard and it was nerf to the version we have now.

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It was the only one duty of all the game where DPS had to use some brain, and it utterly failed. But dps people still today have the nerve of demanding tank and healer do their job. They gives "shameless" a new level of definition.

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Originally Posted by Averax

I remember when wow did something like this.

<snip>

They were actually easier than i'm making them sound at the silver level of difficulty. At gold, things get more hectic all over the place, but silver is just a very average difficulty (bronze just makes sure that you are classified as a living organism)

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Difficulty was the problem. Silver was so easy you could beat it pretty much knowing nothing, because the game was generous enough to always tell you what to do and dropped damage buffs that made all the dps checks moot. It was literally "stand still, read what you need to do, kill this big guy at the end with 100% damage buff". Now that I think about it, I think it was fully voiced, so you didn't even have to read. The implementation was pretty bad for the intended purpose.

Silver was maybe a little bit harder than FFXIV solo trials. It didn't gate anyone and the WoW equivalent of ice mages were able to clear it. Gold DPS wasn't too hard either. I beat it on the second try as a class I had never played before and used the free lvl 90 skip thingy. Bronze was basically hall of the novice. There would need to be a some degree of challenge for gating EX stuff and I doubt we'll ever see one for story mode, because, well, story.

We have a system that teaches you basics. It's called "The Hall of Novice". We should just make it required. It's honestly not that hard.

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Originally Posted by Averax

sentient nihilistic pumpkin

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i also identify as a sentient nihilistic pumpkin (and im a mercy main, btw)

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Originally Posted by savageink

The party finder is good for finding people who want their dungeons to run like well oiled machines to find others of like mind.

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Sadly it is not. I tried to farm Nidhogg EX yesterday to get the bird, but people with bonus entered (we wrote 'no bonus please') and people who had no clue what they were doing there. :(
Apart from the fact they didn't know the fight, they especially didn't know how to handle their job, which was quite annoying to find in a farm group.

So, because I had a whole lot of those experiences I would apreciate some kind of gate for people who want to enter savage raids or ex primals. Story Content and general dungeons should be free for everyone, though!

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

...an ilvl check for all pieces of gear AND a check for the appropriate stat corresponding to the class.

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I'm happy they're making some things mandatory for accessories. I got tired of seeing people who were one job but their rings had another stat on them.

Doesn't stop people from earing level 5 earrings and doing cutters cry though. I think the avg iLV is fine but they shouldn't let you in if you're wearing a piece of gear that should have been replaced a while ago. I'm all for that. They have a quest that says get to iLV 15 or maybe that was in beta? I forget..but it made you go back and grab bear.

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Originally Posted by Core1019

Even if it's something like a mandatory SSS dummy before the final boss trial, ilvl synced per class. Just something to prevent things like 'ice mages' slowing down roulettes or getting into ex primals?

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I'm all for it, but it's amazing they made this game so user friendly for a lot of things that people don't grasp it. I think beyond this a few QoL adjustments to what we have now would go a long way. The game has plenty of ways to help you learn your job but you're over powered or it is optional.

There should be no reason to ignore the adds in a dungeon as early as Copperbell Mines on the last boss. There's also no need for a ton of individual groups of 3 mobs prior to a boss when we have very little AoE.

Guildhests were an excellent way to introduce mechanics you were going to face, they could have continued with that.

Then by the time they get to the striking dummy to clear for EX content of that type they're way a head of the game. I think it would cause uproar from the vocal minority but ultimately it will let people understand the basics.

There's a lot to be said for getting a few FC buddies and running, that's always optional and a good way to get stuff done. At the same time if you do end up doing a pick up, this is something that would help with the overall learning. A phase may not run on as long because the DPS know how to use their cool downs, or even have them / the right gear.

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Originally Posted by AmeliaVerves

Sadly it is not. I tried to farm Nidhogg EX yesterday to get the bird, but people with bonus entered (we wrote 'no bonus please') and people who had no clue what they were doing there. :(
Apart from the fact they didn't know the fight, they especially didn't know how to handle their job, which was quite annoying to find in a farm group.

So, because I had a whole lot of those experiences I would apreciate some kind of gate for people who want to enter savage raids or ex primals. Story Content and general dungeons should be free for everyone, though!

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Easiest thing would just be to keep the EX unlocks sequential, like they were for Ifrit/Titan/Garuda and Bismark/Ravana.

Based on what actually happens when DF roulettes go bad, there's simply no way to gate it, and all content gates would accomplish is needlessly annoying people.

Will a content gate stop the healer I had in Sohm Al who let me die three times because they were in FC chat and forgot to heal? They had the gear/quest checks done, and played like crap.

Will a content gate make the family of one of my DPS in Baelsar's not bug her while she is doing a dungeon run? (We finished and she pulled through, but let's say we had a few rough patches)

And this one is something I know well as a tank...will a content gate fix everyone needing at least one or two runs through a dungeon before becoming remotely proficient at it? Yeah, because my first time running Baelsar's I was perfect...NOT. On the final boss, my team could have reasonably wondered if I was trying to get hit with every single Sanguine Blade AE, as if there is an achievement for it. I think I ate like 5 in a row before I finally got the timing of his run to the side down. And I waited until I was iLvl 247 before I even queued for that place. No content gate fixes first time foulups and slop...believe me, I know.

Etc etc. If your healer decides to watch Netflix, or your tank goes glamour and never heard of CDs, or your DPS are "roleplaying because hey, it's their sub, not yours!!", or it's just a few people's first freaking time through...then WTF is a content gate going to do to stop that? Nothing, that's what.

Roulette = gambling = sometimes you win, most times you lose. The nonsense is baked right into the entire concept of random gambling on party members, which is why you get paid in gil, seals and tomestones.

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Originally Posted by Venjenz

Based on what actually happens when DF roulettes go bad, there's simply no way to gate it, and all content gates would accomplish is needlessly annoying people.

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I don't think people here are really asking for DF roulette gates, but gates on stuff like raids, EX trials, and the like, Mid to Hardcore content. At the very least, by requiring people to clear something like the Stone Sky Sea for a fight before they can join party finder groups for it would make it so that you would at least get someone who knows their job's basic rotation.

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Originally Posted by Venjenz

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I think the solution to this is for them to try making dungeons more engaging, offering some actual challenge and more inspired designs than linear corridor with 3 pulls before a gate x5.

Maybe it has been said before, but content gating isn't new in the game. We had to complete most GuildHest back in 2.1, in order to unlock Cristal Tower. I think this was a good step in the right direction, but more things need to be mandatory, such as SSS for extrem primals and savage, and at the very least, novice hall (not sure about the name) before unlocking dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Leigaon

I'm happy they're making some things mandatory for accessories. I got tired of seeing people who were one job but their rings had another stat on them.

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I get what your saying about cutters cry, but I mean you dont always have to have full upgrades depending on your role. For instance, aurum vale I dont need to be ilvl 47 to do this, can vary well be like ilvl42 or something like that. When I was doing the dungeons in hw, I was not about to farm stuff just to try and get an rng piece of right side gear for the vault or library. If you know mechanics of a fight like if youve done it on a previous job I see no reason to have to be up to ilvl in dungeons unless its something crazy like your wearing a level 36 ring in 50 content.

But I used iron work pieces all the way up to sixty, cause either I didnt get a drop on right side pieces are I wasnt gona spend 500k gil on one ring I was going to quickly outlevel. Like right now if I dont get a drop unless the content warrants it I can assure you that by the time I hit 70, Ill still be wearing some right side pieces all the way through Ill upgrade them if they drop but Im not gona go out of my way to get them. Gear is easy, as you always have vender options which I always buy cause farming for leveling gear just doesnt make sense to me as it will be out leveled very fast , but in hw well in all content I always felt like accessories where pretty much have a gsm friend. So as long as someones not a burden with how bad accessories pieces drop in dungeons I dont believe they should be locked out of content, if we are talking dungeons.

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Originally Posted by savageink

DF is for random chaos and wipes....but they pay you in tomes and stuff. If you can't stand healers who blow all their MP on AoEs or tanks who can't keep aggro, or DPS who forget not to stand in the fire, then don't roulette.

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This mentality is why the "no bonus" culture exists that people always moan about..

When you have that kind of mentality towards duty finder stuff, Is it really any wonder no one wants you in there party finder group's and everything you see is "NO BONUS!"?? (not you personally but players with that mentality in general).

The duty finder should be for getting things done on all levels like it is on the jp side.

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Originally Posted by Yahallo

I don't think people here are really asking for DF roulette gates, but gates on stuff like raids, EX trials, and the like, Mid to Hardcore content. At the very least, by requiring people to clear something like the Stone Sky Sea for a fight before they can join party finder groups for it would make it so that you would at least get someone who knows their job's basic rotation.

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Ideally what they should do is make the normal / hard modes actually challenging and in line with the extremes / savages. That should be the gate.

A player who clears Zurvan hard for example should have learnt enough from clearing hard that he at least understands the basic mechanics in extreme. So a player that unlocked extreme would then at least know how to handle soar or southern cross for example because he learnt them in hard. If that was the case you'd probably find more players willing to take bonus because simply having the ex /savage fight unlocked would indicate you have a pretty good understanding of the mechanics of the encounter and what you need to do to clear it.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

This mentality is why the "no bonus" culture exists that people always moan about..

when you have that kind of mentality towards duty finder stuff though is it really any wonder no one wants you in there party finder group's and everything you see is "NO BONUS!" (not you

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Df should also be for learning or a chance to do said content, I joined game late and the only way I was gona get any sync clears on arr primals would be in df. And it was some wipes , and fails, but I expected that but I kept at it until I got a clear. Df to me is a pratice ground for older content, otherwise, you will never get a real or somewhat real experience if you only got to do it unsync. No bonus exist because players want perfection in their runs , its as simple as that, note some of the content really doesnt require no bonus but some of it does Ive just come to accept it these days even tho I dont care for the whole no bonus thing.

Don't pug something expecting perfection and you won't have any issues. If you want to control all variables, make a group. You can even put notes in a PF on what you're looking for and would be within your right to remove players who didn't follow those rules.

I have see it suggested to have EX primals and Savage stay available in RF. So long as they also were eventually added to DF as well to give a choice, I can't see a problem with that.

The problem with using SSS is what do you do about healers? Okay, you can test our dps capability, but there's no metric on how effectively we heal. And SSS does nothing for ability to handle mechanics. So dps isn't everything in those fights and SSS would not be a really good gauge since it can't factor in all the measurements.