Ninja

NIN was one of the few classes that just seemed underwhelming honestly. Not crazy about the Frog spit move nor the NIN leylines. Hell I didn't care for most of their 3.0 kit either, in terms of exciting stuff.

i guess mutilate is gone, as phlebotomize and touch of death weren't on yoshi's bar in the last LL either. i wonder how the loose of B4B is gonna change potency numbers, not just for nin but for all except for drg

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Originally Posted by RaizeGraymalkin

Hell I didn't care for most of their 3.0 kit either, in terms of exciting stuff.

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Smoke Screen -- Aha! Raid support, possibly with a free stealth move! -- Quelling Strikes.
Shadewalker -- Ooh, ooh, do we get to summon Shades with which to attack enemies or support allies, possibly augmenting allied threat/evasion or allowing repositioning with any Shade out on the field? -- (Reversed) Collusion
Dream Within a Dream -- This has got to be the awesome culminating finisher where all those Shades collapse onto a single target like a far cooler Wildfire, right? -- (Standard oGCD attack)

...Hrmm.

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Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

i guess mutilate is gone, as phlebotomize and touch of death weren't on yoshi's bar in the last LL either. i wonder how the loose of B4B is gonna change potency numbers, not just for nin but for all except for drg

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As someone who'd rather have DoTs, however shallow a skill mechanic they might be, than nothing, I shall mourn them all.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Dream skills

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Don't forget Duality!! -- A skill that makes your skills strike twice for its whole 10 seconds duration, maybe without the combo bonus to not be so OP!! -- nerfed Barrage clone



On a plus side, I still do like NIN.
It is very different from all the other dual dagger wielding jobs I've played on other games, which also have something I did like, but I still do like them.

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Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

i guess mutilate is gone, as phlebotomize and touch of death weren't on yoshi's bar in the last LL either...

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So I'm trying to level up my ninja, and am trying to gather up some additional information about the job. This I actually like. Mutilate and moves like it seemed to feel off to me. With all these changes, my comfort zone of SMN and healing are being questioned..and I want to expand out possibly. Moves like Mutilate always turned me off from the job.

I was curious on the changes to their weaponskills too. Gust Slash, adds the Dancing Edge resistance now? Dancing edge removed and Armor Crush sticking around?

Ninjas have some enmity down moves, are those staying / being adjusted? Sorry I'm only 53 Ninja and I'm not doing PoTD, so my progression is slow.

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Originally Posted by Arkenne

If we could change gear (or glamour) mid fight, I would totally do it, with a macro and all.
"GO GO FRIENDSHIP POWER OF UNICORN RAINBOW GLITTERY FARTS!!!"

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The trick would be getting the song from Fairy Fencer F to override the current BGM.

Welp,

It seems like the new NIN-leylines actually requires us to stay still, since it reduces Ninjutsu cast time to 1 second twice, and also DOUBLES the damage from them while in it.
However it no where says you HAVE to use more mudras in order to cast the next one, so maybe we can actually go triple Raiton or Triple Katon. Which would mean that NIN may become the strongest melee AoE DPS without having to use TP at all... that would be neat.

Nin is now as brainless as pld was in HW.
1-2-3
1-2-4
1-2-5
You don't have to keep track of any dots, only following this rotation. I never asked for this.

Now seeing that all our new skills require 80 gauge to be used, How often can we really be using our new attacks since our gauge only goes up off of auto attack+6 and mug +30 every 90 seconds, i would have like to see atleast 1 of the skills maybe require 50 or something so that we can use them a little bit more.

Also i still don't like losing mutilate it wasn't the strongest skill but lasted decent amount of time and was just an extra DPS, Maybe they made shadow fang a little but stronger potency to kind of even it out (doubt it)

Just by looking at it they removed 4 buttons i normally used, B4B,Internal Release,Dancing edge and Mutilate, and added couple new skills(not sure how ofter we will be able to actually use them) Cant wait till early access to this how this actually works out....

Drg and Monk lost their 30 second dot too. TBH I'm glad to see it leaving. I hated Drg because of phlebotomize, and I almost didn't play Ninja when I learned they had the same stupid Dot. I had long since established Monk to be the leader in DoT damage when it came to the dps jobs. All of their damage increases made the Dots insanity, and I felt like that should have been Monks identity.

Even now, Drg still has chaos thrust and ninja has shadow fang, so they have the same amount of DoTs each. I like feeling more unique, but this doesn't help

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Originally Posted by Arkenne

Hrm... I don't think thats the one, after all in the 3 pictures we see a set of 3 numbers, 2 of them coming from Duality, and another is an auto-attack.
I don't really think a direct hit will crit for 5k meanwhile Duality does a strike of 3k and another of 1k.

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Duality doesn't crit but it is the direct hit instead. Same thing for Bards. Just FYI.

https://youtu.be/8Cw9X1nBuSI

Well damn, I stand corrected,
So Direct Hit is actually the old Crit (sorta) and the new Crit has 3 '!'
Well, talk about confusing :/ (I thought it was another sort of auto-attack)

So Direct Hit can make an Armor Crush go from 3.4k to 5k, thats quite the boost.


Sadly, more things to stand corrected in... the Ten Chi Jin (NIN leylines) can't spam 3 Raitons or 3 Katons... boo :/

Yea looks like there is only one way to use it on a single target sadly.

Well, if you already used TA, and its no-where near the end of CD, going Shuriken > Katon > Doton supposedly does more damage than Shuriken > Raiton > Suiton...
Still, for a proper use of Doton we MUST set the Ten Chi Jin underneath the enemy...

Yay, NIN leylines aren't an AoE magnet, they literally GO to the AoE...

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Originally Posted by Arkenne

Well, if you already used TA, and its no-where near the end of CD, going Shuriken > Katon > Doton supposedly does more damage than Shuriken > Raiton > Suiton...
Still, for a proper use of Doton we MUST set the Ten Chi Jin underneath the enemy...

Yay, NIN leylines aren't an AoE magnet, they literally GO to the AoE...

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It depends if we can weave other skills in the ninjutsu cast combo... cast first 2 then warp to target with shukuchi and drop the 3rd cast....

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

It depends if we can weave other skills in the ninjutsu cast combo... cast first 2 then warp to target with shukuchi and drop the 3rd cast....

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Sadly, Ten Chi Jin specifies that you can ONLY do Mudras and Ninjutsus while in it, and that it cancels itself out if you move.
Yea, you could just do 2 Ninjutsus and then move out as soon as the 3rd refreshed, but then you lose the double damage buff :/

Looking over these changes, I really wish they would bring back sneak attack and separate it's cooldown from trick attack. Ten Chi Jin is a very cool ability, but it's a bit awkward in the rotation due to Suiton. As I see it, you'll definitely want to use a ninjitsu and Kassatsu prior to Ten Chi Jin so your 480 potency Fuma is also guaranteed to crit. So your choices are either Suiton - Trick - Kassatsu - Ten Chi Jin - Fuma - Raiton - Suiton, in which case the last Suiton is essentially wasted with no move to follow it (despite being 360 potency, still nice), or Raiton - Kassatsu - Ten Chi Jin - Fuma - Raiton - Suiton - Trick. As it stands #2 is the winner; casting Raiton first over Suiton is a 180 potency increase, which more than makes up for not having trick up for your Ten Chi Jin casts, and you can still take advantage of the 10 seconds of vuln afterwards. It feels counter intuitive to end with trick, though, and removes a sense of synergy from the rotation. This could be easily fixed by giving us back Sneak Attack and separating it's cooldown from Trick Attack. We could then use Suiton twice, getting in a Trick prior to Ten Chi Jin and a Sneak immediately after, meaning Suiton's bonus effect would never be wasted. Of course potencies would need to be adjusted; I'm not suggesting we just be given an extra 500 potency attack to stick at the end of Ten Chi Jin. Trick & Sneak could both me made to 300 potency, or maybe sneak should only be 200 potency. Whatever it would take to be balanced... I don't really care about the numbers, it's about the flow of the rotation and synergy of abilities. The class would be more interesting with two moves to use out of Suiton rather than only trick. Seems like a missed opportunity the way it's currently designed.

Also, with the currently revealed 4.0 abilities, I believe Fuma - Raiton - Suiton makes more sense during Ten Chi Jin than Fuma - Katon - Doton. The slight potency increase of the later does not make up for the need to use Suiton elsewhere in the rotation rather than an extra Raiton.

Ninja seems to be one of the least changed classes. A few QoL changes, some potency upgrades and a new Ninki bar used to power the new higher level skills, but the core gameplay looks like it'll still be there and we just need to figure out the optimal use of the new skills.

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Originally Posted by Laflama_Blanca

Raiton - Kassatsu - Ten Chi Jin - Fuma - Raiton - Suiton - Trick. As it stands #2 is the winner.

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Even worse, I believe:
Since Ten Chi Jin requires 80 Ninki which most likely we will rarely have outside of dungeon bosses. Relying on it for a consistent opener seems iffy.
And the skill itself says to renew the next 2 Ninjutsus, but what happens if Ninjutsu's timer was at 0 when you use it?
Do we have to wait for Ninjutsu to come back to 0 and wait in the NIN leylines like sitting ducks?
Or will the timer go back to 0 and count it as a refresh so we can only use Shuriken > Raiton/Katon/Hyuton??

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

Ninja seems to be one of the least changed classes.

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I have mixed feelings about this.
While its true that the changes result in an over all increase. The NIN core rotation got changed in a way that looks forever-halone-PLD-like.
It changed from:
MU->SF->DE->AE/AC
to:
SF->AE/AC->AE/AC->SF (or 3 SF->AE/AC->AE/AC->AE/AC->SF if you have enough SkS).

I would be cool with it if they at least kept DE animation and gave it to AE...
But hey, DwaD CD got down to 60 seconds, so it will align with TA all the time~♪ (ideally speaking).



Basically the NIN now has the GCD rotation, the Ninjutsu/TA rotation, the oGCD management and the Ninki rotation.

1. Reduce the number gauge in 2 new skill. 80 is high.
2. Leyline should be able to use same ninjutsu... wonder why they disallow it, warrior have Triple FC...

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Originally Posted by SuperNoob

1. Reduce the number gauge in 2 new skill. 80 is high.
2. Leyline should be able to use same ninjutsu... wonder why they disallow it, warrior have Triple FC...

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Well, looking at it from another angle, it seems like Ninki is an independent rotation...
True, 80/100 Ninki per skill sounds like a lot, but actually with Huton on, we just need an uptime of 29~31 seconds with the current weapon's delays in order to fire a Ninki skill. This is without Mug.

I'm guessing the Ninki rotation will be something like Ten Chi Jin > Bhabacakra > Hellfrog > Bhabacakra > Repeat.
In essence, Ninki is an oGCD of sorts...

I still wish there were some other ways to generate Ninki tho, for example change the positional requirement for Aeolian Edge from raw potency to Ninki generation.

Within such short time from the recent tooltip, dummy dungeon video... doubt they will change it before SB release... but if they change it and add some extra gaining gauge faster to ninja, lower gauge cost, remove ten Chi jin Mudra requirement. I'm sure more current players will stay as ninja.

They could lower the cool down for Mug so we get to use abit more.

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Originally Posted by SuperNoob

They could lower the cool down for Mug so we get to use abit more.

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Mug had always pissed me off, being a 90s 140 potency oGCD that happens to give you a meager heal (that one barely ever notices) or increase the drop rate of items (which one barely ever needs).
The CD time is ridiculously long.
The changes make it a tad more interesting, generating the extra 30 Ninki, but its still 90 seconds for 140 potency and... its the only one >:|

I wish mug was moved down to a 60 second recast time. The fastest you can get a full ninki gauge is 27 seconds with mug included, give or take. So every 90 seconds we shave around ten seconds off building it. Seems a little low, and if it is a problem maybe it is one way they could "buff" ninja in the future if it was needed.

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Originally Posted by Fourbestintoner

Nin is now as brainless as pld was in HW.
1-2-3
1-2-4
1-2-5
You don't have to keep track of any dots, only following this rotation. I never asked for this.

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Monk, Machinist, Summoner, and Dragoon share your disappointment...

Surely it's SE's masterful plan for getting us to swap off most of the previous DPS classes as not to inflate queues! Though also off of DRK, WAR, and WHM. And of course, RDM and SAM will be a thing... Hrmm.

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Originally Posted by KuroiKarasu

The fastest you can get a full ninki gauge is 27 seconds with mug included.

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Actually, from 0 to 80 with Huton and Mug, its 17 (supposing you are in an uptime that long).
It only becomes better if you have an AST feeding you Arrows like no tomorrow (which I had always welcome), but I wish Skill Speed could do something to improve the situation too...

I thought auto attacks were every three seconds.

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Originally Posted by KuroiKarasu

I thought auto attacks were every three seconds.

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You can see the auto-attack timer on your weapon's description as Delay.
Some weapons have 2.48s others 2.56s and others even 2.64s

This is affected by Huton tho, so its almost 2 seconds per Auto-Attack.

It seems like for the sake of Ninki, NINs will be forced to go for the Relic/Anima weapon of SB, since its the one with the lowest Delay.

Okay I will not call myself a math guru... but if Im right... the NIN opener for SB is ridiculously powerful... even if you start at 0 Ninki. To the point that you BETTER use that Shadewalker or you are screwed...

Disclaimer: I could (and most likely will) be totally wrong with this:

Lets say you have 0 Ninki at 2.5 GCD (0 SkS) for 2.125 GCD with Huton, using an Anima weapon with 2.48s Delay for 2.108s AutoAttacks with Huton...


Pre-fight -- Huton > Hide > Sukushi to enemy's side.
Spinning Edge > Gust Slash > Shadow Fang(Mug) [Active 6.375s, 18 Ninki + 30 from Mug]
Spinning Edge(Suiton) > Gust Slash(Kassatsu) > Aeolian Edge [Active 12.75s + 1s clip from Suiton, 66 Ninki]
Spinning Edge(TA) > Gust Slash (Duality) > Aeolian Edge(DwaD) [Active 18s, 78 Ninki]
Spinning Edge(Ten Chi Jin) > Shuriken > Raiton/Katon > Suiton/Doton > Gust Slash(Jug) > Shadow Fang... [Active 24.375s + 2.5s from delays on Ninjutsu execution, 16 Ninki aprox since Ninki doesn't increase while in Ten Chi Jin]

- You can even force some delay by inputing the Dex Pot + Shadewalker before TA...
- Total damage is about 8562 Potency considering self buffs alone (trait included).
- Shadow Fang just can't go into the TA window tho... but is a small trade off...
- If you somehow manage to start the fight with 80 Ninki it can only get more ridiculous...


Your toughts??

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Originally Posted by Arkenne

Your toughts??

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You don't have ninja ley lines in with trick attack? It's double potency so surely that's gotta be within trick attack. I was thinking more like this.

Spinning edge > jug
Gust > pot
Shadow fang
Suiton
Spinning edge > mug+dream within
Gust > duality
Aeolian edge
Kassatsu+trick attack
Ninja ley lines
Fuma>raiton>suiton

Then go into armour crush combo. After that opener you've used everything you've got plus have at least 25s left on Hutton

Edit: I tried your opener and I only had 3 seconds left on trick attack to perform the 3 ninjutsu skills. It would be really tight but I'll give yours a go when SB hits. My skill speed is 609.

Here goes our opener:

Huton > Hide > Suiton > Spinning Edge > Dex Potion+Mug > Gust Slash > Trick Attack+Kassatsu > Shadow Fang > Raiton > Spinning Edge > Dream within a dream+Jugulate > Gust Slash > Duality > Aeolian Edge > Bhavacakra

Save Ten Chi Jin for the second Trick Attack unless there is somehow more than one mob at the start of a boss fight then use Ten Chi Jin with Katon and Doton.

Edit. This rotation is very outdated and it wasn't ever optimall! New rotation a couple pages up.

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Originally Posted by Klarkus

Another opener suggestion.

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Yup, I tried that opener in TA with DwaD + Duality ahead of Ten Chi Jin on purpose and ended with those 3 seconds,
I will try to get an opener the other way around, with Ten Chi Jin ahead of DwaD + Duality in TA.
I wonder how it all changes if some SkS is involved as SkS does not affect Auto Attacks but certainly can change the timing of GCDs...
I will try to emulate a 2~1.91GCD/s scenario. And another with Arrow up from the get go :v

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Originally Posted by Adelaide3

Save Ten Chi Jin for the second Trick Attack.

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Ten Chi Jin is waaaaaaaay more powerful than Bhavacakra, I would recommend against delaying it, even if you can't place it in the TA window.

Bhavacakra is 595 Potency with TA.
Ten Chi Jin(Shu Rai Sui) is 780 without TA, it gets doubled, and this isn't even considering Kassatsu (which we've yet to see if it only affects Shuriken).

Well, there is also the AoE Scenario...

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Originally Posted by Arkenne

Ten Chi Jin is waaaaaaaay more powerful than Bhavacakra, I would recommend against delaying it, even if you can't place it in the TA window.

Bhavacakra is 595 Potency with TA.
Ten Chi Jin(Shu Rai Sui) is 780 without TA, it gets doubled, and this isn't even considering Kassatsu (which we've yet to see if it only affects Shuriken).

Well, there is also the AoE Scenario...

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By using Ten Chi Jin right away you're losing more potencies slightly further down the rotation because you're going to clip the hell out of your GCD by using basic Suiton and suffer a potency blow by not being able to use Shuriken or Raiton. Also, by using Bhavacakra first, it'll be up again for your third Ninki gauge charge. Overall, it's going to be a Dps increase by delaying Ten Chi Jin. The trade offs to use it sooner aren't worth it.

There can possibly be a different opener from mine that uses a Kassatsu buffed Ten Chi Jin but i'm not seeing it at the moment. Oh and Kassatsu would only buff the Shuriken if it were to even work.

I was thinking something more like:

Huton - Hide - Shadewalker - Raiton on the pull - Spinning Edge - Mug - Gust Slash - Jugulate - Shadow Fang - Spinning Edge - Gust Slash - Aeolean Edge - Spinning Edge - Potion - Gust Slash - Duality - Aeolean Edge - Spinning Edge - Raiton + Kassatsu - Gust Slash - Ten Chi Jin - Fuma Shuriken - Raiton - Suiton - Trick Attack - Shadow Fang - Dream Within a Dream

Trick is not worth using prior to Ten Chi Jin compared to Raiton. By using Raiton on the pull and slightly delaying Ten Chi Jin we get in 2 Raitons prior to Ten Chi Jin without wasting any ninki. I think potion would still be up for DWaD in this opener; if not, it would need to be pushed back and paired with duality. I defintely think we want to use Ten Chi Jin before Bhavacakra in the standard opener. It's too powerful to delay and maximizes the guaranteed crit of kassatsu. Standard ninki rotation looks like TCJ - Bhava - Frog - Bhava repeat.

Edit: Mug and Jugulate could also be moved after the first shadow fang for a little extra potency.

There's just way too many steps in that rotation that greatly delays getting all of your big cooldowns on cooldown for the sake of some delayed up front burst. It'll only hurt your Dps a little further into your rotation. I'm not saying it can't work but Kassatsu into Ten Chi Jin into Trick Attack is going to have to come alot sooner than that. You also have to consider that Trick Attack doesn't belong to you alone and it needs to be on the boss as soon as possible.

I'll probably do:

Suiton>Spinning>Gust>Jugulate>Aeolian>Kassatsu>Spinning>pot>Gust>Trick>Shadow Fang>Raiton>Spinning>DWD+Mug>Gust>Duality>Aeolian>TCJ>Fuma>Raiton (trick ends here)>Suiton

Its going to be really tight. Waiting 5 GCDs on trick will put suiton at <1 s, so if the pull is sloppy RIP TA. Im also not sure if raiton will fit in TA, itll be close. You need to fit a decent amount of GCD clipping into the TA window, but youre also doing 1 less GCD than normal so it -should- work. I'd feel really confident in pulling this off if servers were still on east coast, but now with 100ms ping I'm concerned I'll have too much clipping.

Also, delaying trick by 1 GCD will likely work out better for other jobs as it seems most jobs openers got pushed back 1-3 GCDs.

Adelaide - Very true that other dps needs to be considered with trick timing. There seems to be more ramp up across other classes now as well though, so my proposed trick timing could work well with drg and sam for example. Will need to be tested to know for certain. I do not think the delays in cooldowns are a negative though. My opener delays kassatsu but makes up for it with the extra raiton, which is essentially what an extra kassatsu (dependent on encounter length) would get you at the end of the fight anyway. DWaD is indeed delayed to align with trick. It could be moved up if an encounter calls for it. I think that the overall benefits of my opener still maximize everything (potion, raiton damage, kassatsu crit, cooldown alignment) to the fullest potential. It's just on paper so far though, will be very fun to test.

Sigmakan - it looks like your opener has TCJ resetting the ninjutsu cooldown. I am going by the assumption that it does not. I haven't seen a video where they use TCJ while ninjutsu is already on cooldown, so it remains to be seen. TCJ would be even more powerful if it does in fact resets cooldown - probably overly so.

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Originally Posted by Adelaide3

By using Ten Chi Jin right away you're losing more potencies slightly further down the rotation because you're going to clip the hell out of your GCD by using basic Suiton and suffer a potency blow by not being able to use Shuriken or Raiton.

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My plan is by the end of the day, just seeing if I can apply TenCJ inside a TA window within 30 seconds, managing to do so in 20~23 so I think its not that bad.

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Originally Posted by Adelaide3

Huton > Hide > Suiton > Spinning Edge > Dex Potion+Mug > Gust Slash > Trick Attack+Kassatsu > Shadow Fang > Raiton > Spinning Edge > Dream within a dream+Jugulate > Gust Slash > Duality > Aeolian Edge > Bhavacakra.

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BTW, I reread your opener here so lemme point it out because I feel something is odd :/

Lets suppose you have a GCD of 2 seconds, and have no clipping outside of Dex pot for 1s delay.
SE+GS+SF+SE+GS+AE < 12 seconds
Pot < 1 second
thats 13 seconds, time for autoattacks to happen at least 6 times, this means 36 ninki, plus mug is 66, you may not have the ninki for Bhavacakra at the end of it... let alone it being inside TA.
Now if we consider the clippings of doubleweaving... it would be like... 2 seconds? that still means 72 ninki at best :/

Well, I get your point but I still think you should revise the Bhavacakra timing there if you have 0 Ninki.

I will try to emulate it a bit to see the loss you mention about tho...


Edit: oh btw, it seems like there is a little bug regarding Kassatsu, sometimes I use a Ninjutsu inside its window and yet Kassatsu isn't consumed out of my buff bar. It is possible that if the Ninjutsu crits by itself the buff isn't used so it remains. If that is the case, Shuriken could crit by itself and Raiton could be force crit by Kassatsu, its a nice bet for me.

Yeah, I kind of considered that I wouldn't have enough Ninki at the point where I put Bhavacakra at but I wasn't for certain as I didn't do all the inbetween math. I'd have to move it a little further down until the gauge fills up. Double weaving TA+Kass and DwaD+Jug doesn't clip much at all from what I tested.

I'll take another look at my rotation later today and see if I can change something.

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Originally Posted by Adelaide3

By using Ten Chi Jin right away you're losing more potencies slightly further down the rotation because you're going to clip the hell out of your GCD by using basic Suiton and suffer a potency blow by not being able to use Shuriken or Raiton. Also, by using Bhavacakra first, it'll be up again for your third Ninki gauge charge. Overall, it's going to be a Dps increase by delaying Ten Chi Jin. The trade offs to use it sooner aren't worth it.

There can possibly be a different opener from mine that uses a Kassatsu buffed Ten Chi Jin but i'm not seeing it at the moment. Oh and Kassatsu would only buff the Shuriken if it were to even work.

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But you want to try get your highest damage in early to pair up with party buffs like balance, battle lit, hyper charge ect