Redo the Crafting system.

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Originally Posted by magnanimousCynic

But it still shows the issue that if you want to do end-game crafting you need a majority of crafting classes at 50 or higher. If you want to make end-game CUL food then guess what; you DO need all 8 classes at 50 or higher! ... something HAS to be done.

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Why? I have no complaints with things as they are. So it seems to me that nothing has to be done.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

snip

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Ignoring you purposely editing text to change how my message looks, I don't think needing multiple classes is a massive issue, as it's not the main issue I have.

What I want to see changes happen in is that some Cross-Class skills are outright replacements for other baseline skills, like Careful Synthesis II which replaces Basic Synthesis, not to mention the level 15 version of CS. Another blatant example is Steady Hand II, which replaces Steady Hand I in situations that 20% isn't enough.

The 2nd part of my post is about the skills that are extremely niche to the point of being almost unused (Observation, Rumination outside of low levels, Flawless Synth without Maker's Mark). Most crafters I know don't bother putting Observation on their Hotbar due to how niche it is.

My minimal request from SE is that I want Specialist is to be something more than a stat-stick that lets you makes something one patch faster than others, which they had to give to Specialist to give it incentive. I want Specialism to stop being an example of how SE doesn't know what's good for crafters. I want to see Specialist skills become less RNG reliant so they could fill their original purpose of helping those who DON'T have multiple crafters at 50, which it doesn't since none of the skills are viable replacements for any of our main Cross-Class Skills. If they removed Heart of the Crafter and bumped up the proc rate for Good/Excellent close to what it was back in 2.x, then Specialist Skills could've been more viable.

As a final question, let me ask you this; when was the last time you used Observation?

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Originally Posted by magnanimousCynic

If they removed Heart of the Crafter and bumped up the proc rate for Good/Excellent close to what it was back in 2.x, then Specialist Skills could've been more viable.
As a final question, let me ask you this; when was the last time you used Observation?

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I don't think bumping the proc rate back up would be a good idea because it'd completely break the balance for both cross class omni-crafters and single class specialist crafters. What they really need is a new mechanic to influence your wheel stacks, not good procs, which can be used for massive CP recovery or PT. The current rates are actually balanced for an omni-crafter to get just enough good procs to craft a 4* from 0-100% on an average run.

The spec abilities are massively overpowered at lower level recipes because of high proc rates. I know that some players had issues with crafting the master 2 tokens with only a single class at 60, but they would have breezed through them had they tried using the spec abilities. I've tried them myself with the following:

- level 60
- ~430 craftsmanship and control
- 400 CP
- no cross class skills except the level 15 ones of which I only used a handful
- spec abilities: whistle, satisfaction, nymeia's wheel, byregot's miracle

And the results absolutely shocked me:

- Used whistle, satisfaction, TOT for CP recovery and nymeia's wheel for cheaper durability restores when appropriate
- Generally most runs had me using HT a whopping 18-21 times, which gives you no problems building 11 stacks of IQ under SH1 with several touches on top of that, without even considering PT. You get back so much CP that you're drowning in it
- Clearly overpowered on a single class basis, never-mind multi-class

They really need to remove the link between whistle stack reduction and possible use of TOT.

As a side note, I don't know about other crafters but I actually do use observe somewhat regularly. There have been a number of situations where my quality fell a bit short and where I had excess CP but did not have any other better ability to use as a bait for a good proc. It isn't as effective as in ARR when the proc rates were higher, but it's allowed me to bump my results up to 100% on numerous occasions. It's not something I would use even a quarter of the time, but it's a skill that I'm definitely mindful of.

As for FS, well without Maker's Mark, it really is only a "training ability" that is useful for leveling other crafting classes when the 40 progress given by FS exceeded other options. Maker's Mark was introduced for the very reason of giving it more relevance.

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Originally Posted by magnanimousCynic

As a final question, let me ask you this; when was the last time you used Observation?

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I just did, and got a Good proc for my Byregot's. HQ Cotton Yarn, Yay!
So, since that was you're "final question," bye!

LOL

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

I just did, and got a Good proc for my Byregot's. HQ Cotton Yarn, Yay!
So, since that was you're "final question," bye!

LOL

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Observation is a great skill. But I think it should cost way less than 14 CP... I think 6 to 7 CP would be a more reasonable cost. How would you see this?

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Originally Posted by Caimie_Tsukino

Observation is a great skill. But I think it should cost way less than 14 CP... I think 6 to 7 CP would be a more reasonable cost. How would you see this?

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The key cost point is 8CP. If it's less than 8CP, it becomes useful for shortening Comfort Zone. And that is useful: I've had rotations that were one CZ step and 1 or 2 CP short of working; putting in a 6CP Observation would have made them work (effectively shortening the CZ to 9 steps while reducing the total CP gain to 8.) Similarly, a CZ chain with 2 6CP Observations would effectively be 8 steps and a 2 CP gain.

Add in the possibility of a ToT proc, and it becomes darn right attractive.

I've grinded through every gear progression since 2.0 launch. I have loved every aspect of the craft/gather system. I wish the specialist system worked out better, it had potential. I hope it gets revamped and implemented in SB. My only gripe is not the crafting system but the mb, I would like to see a gated undercut system that allows undercutting only once per an hour per an item. This would give other players that have busy lives the chance to make Gil and progress. Let's face it crafting cost allot to level and gear up. I'm gonna have about 200mil at SB launch, not being smug just try to express my experience. So, let's see undercuts gated for all the other players that don't work from home like me and can't undercut every 10mins like I can. SE you listening?

Obviously this would only work if you could have only one of an item up at time (2, HQ/NQ).

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Originally Posted by magnanimousCynic

Most crafters I know don't bother putting Observation on their Hotbar due to how niche it is....As a final question, let me ask you this; when was the last time you used Observation?

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I still have it on my hotbars but I cannot remember the last time I need to use it.

If poor shows up on BB it almost never affects me because:
1. I used BB on the previous excellent; assuming GS was up.
Or,
2. When I have CZ / CP miscalculation; I almost always plan out my completion to require 2 touches at the end. This allows me to use CSII on the Poor and take BB on next step.

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Originally Posted by MN_14

The spec abilities are massively overpowered at lower level recipes because of high proc rates.

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Being overpowered on low level crafts is a waste. Specialist abilities need to competive at top tier recipes to matter at all.

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Originally Posted by Caimie_Tsukino

Observation is a great skill. But I think it should cost way less than 14 CP... I think 6 to 7 CP would be a more reasonable cost. How would you see this?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

The key cost point is 8CP. If it's less than 8CP, it becomes useful for shortening Comfort Zone.

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I would think 10CP would be better choice. It would not allow for a free step under CZ but it would very, very cheap.

lol ffxiv crafting system is great whats not great is the specialist system hahaha ffxiv got one of the best if not the best crafting systems on the mmo market.

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Originally Posted by Pence

I feel like one of the major praises of XIV is how well done the crafting system is, and considered one of the best in the MMO industry...?

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IMO was earlier... It was fine doing the Main Scenario Quests and Unlock Quests once to have access to every feature of the game. Then came Specialization and Desynth with cap. So really needing 3 different chars (and having to do MSQ and unlocks thrice) in order to have ready access to all crafting content devalued the system a lot for me. The system became more like other common MMOs where you need alts to be able to explore all the crafting content.

Observation should pretty much be free.

While it could technically be used to proc infinite cp from comfort zone you'd have to take a tell of a lot of turns to get something viable. Like bust out 60 free observes and 6 comfort zones to gain enough cp to do a masters mend. And recover from a low durability screw up or something when you haven't got enough durability to finish.

Or 10 observes to gain enough cp to swap one hasty for a basic or precise touch. Though if you wanted to steady hand them for 100% success. It's take you an hour to complete a single synth

Or just make it free but unable to be used while comfort zone is active

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Observation should pretty much be free. While it could technically be used to proc infinite cp from comfort zone you'd have to take a tell of a lot of turns to get something viable...

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Not really. Each CZ only recovers 14CP. But for the 10 steps under CZ, each has a 9% chance of getting a G/E proc, which you'd use a Tricks of the Trade to convert into 20CP. On average, each CZ+10xObs would recover 32CP, and three would be enough to buy a Master's Mend or Manipulation.

But why even bother with CZ? Whenever you don't have a buff running, just activate your (ToT+Obs)x7 macro and go get a drink. If you don't recover some CP while you're away (there's about a 50/50 chance you will recover at least 20CP), hit the macro again.

And speaking of Manip, it replaces Master's Mend if Obs is free. Just do Manip+3xObs for 88CP (and hope for G/E procs too) instead of the 92CP Master's Mend.

So, conclusion: Observation breaks the system if it's free.

hey least its not 1.0 crafting :P "want to make a shoe? make 12 nails get a sole leather, toe guard heel guard...oh those nails take an ingot a piece for some reason...." "XD Stats? what stats this is a lvl 5 shoe?....oh yeah I said shoe, need to repeat the process if you want a pair....or hack of a leg your choice....." *takes out CRP tool*

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

Not really. Each CZ only recovers 14CP. But for the 10 steps under CZ, each has a 9% chance of getting a G/E proc, which you'd use a Tricks of the Trade to convert into 20CP. On average, each CZ+10xObs would recover 32CP, and three would be enough to buy a Master's Mend or Manipulation.

But why even bother with CZ? Whenever you don't have a buff running, just activate your (ToT+Obs)x7 macro and go get a drink. If you don't recover some CP while you're away (there's about a 50/50 chance you will recover at least 20CP), hit the macro again.

And speaking ofManip, it replaces Master's Mend if Obs is free. Just do Manip+3xObs for 88CP (and hope for G/E procs too) instead of the 92CP Master's Mend.

So, conclusion: Observation breaks the system if it's free.

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You're right if the CP cost for Observe is too low, then it'll break the game. My previous suggestion of 6 to 7 CP is definitely too low. Even 8 CP that you previously suggested is still too low. So I'd like to suggest the following.

Firstly,

CZ = -66
10 steps of CZ = +80
Net gain = +14

Currently, Observe cost 14 CP each

If no Good proc'ed, 10 steps of Observe = -140
Final CP = +14 (from CZ net gain) -140 = -126

If 2 steps proc'ed Good, then 8 steps of Observe and 2 steps of ToT = -112 +20 +20 = -72
Final CP = +14 (from CZ net gain) -72 = -58

If 3 steps proc'ed Good, then 7 steps of Observe and 3 steps of ToT = -98 +20 +20 +20 = -38
Final CP = +14 (from CZ net gain) -38 = -24

Mini Summary: So at the moment, unless there are 4 Good procs during the 10 steps of CZ, it's always gonna be a deficit on CP spamming Observe.


Now assuming Observe now cost only 11 CP...

If 3 steps proc'ed Good, then 7 steps of Observe and 3 steps of ToT = -77 +20 +20 +20 = -17
Final CP +14 (from CZ net gain) -17 = -3

Mini Summary: As you can see, even if Observe cost only 11 CP, one will still need 4 Good procs during CZ in order to gain any CP.

Conclusion: I think the current cost for Observe can be cut down to 11 CP, and it won't break the game.


Secondly,

I thought about having an addition to the skill: "Cost only 7 CP if remaining CP is 60 or fewer". This way, one cannot activate CZ, and then test their luck to regain CP via Trick of Trade by spamming Observe (cost 8 CP per step, while CZ replenishes 8 CP per step). However, I think someone would then activate CZ, and then total CP drops below 60, and now he/she can spam Observe... So at the end, I think Dzian's last suggestion could be partially taken... the cheaper version of Observe cannot be allowed while CZ is active. So I think the addition to the skill should be:
"Cost only 7 CP if remaining CP is 60 or fewer and while Comfort Zone is not active"

This change here would not only benefit end-game crafting, to make Observe a bit more useful towards the end of a rotation for procs, but it will also benefit beginner crafters, and teach them how to utilize procs very early in their career.

Hat doenst change anything though. The sheer amount of the involved means even at 11 cp observe is useless. There's just to much ring involved..

Also reading a response about observe and tricks of the trade where you could just spam them both. I'd tweak my earlier suggestion and make observe cost increasing cp. First one is free second one is 5cp third one is 10cp or something like that.

That way one you could toss in a free observe when you got strides up for bb so it would be useful but it wouldn't be spammable

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Originally Posted by Caimie_Tsukino

You're right if the CP cost for Observe is too low, then it'll break the game.
Conclusion: I think the current cost for Observe can be cut down to 11 CP, and it won't break the game.

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Agreed. And your analysis assumed 3 G/E proces (3 ToTs) in 10 steps, which is pretty good luck, so even 7 CP would be OK: spamming CZ+Obs+(ToT on G/E) sometimes would be a CP win (if you got 3 or more G/E procs), but the odds of that are poor. At 7CP, 2 ToTs would almost be breakeven, and the odds of getting two procs is about 1%.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Caimie_Tsukino

So I think the addition to the skill should be:
[B]"Cost only 7 CP if remaining CP is 60 or fewer and while Comfort Zone is not active"

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I think that's an unnecessary complication. At 7CP, with a less than 1% chance of CZ+Obs spam being a CP gain and a large loss if it isn't, Obs isn't game breaking. Even at 6CP, CZ+Obs spam is usually a loss of CP.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

I'd tweak my earlier suggestion and make observe cost increasing cp. First one is free second one is 5cp third one is 10cp or something like that.

That way one you could toss in a free observe when you got strides up for bb so it would be useful but it wouldn't be spammable

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Interesting idea, but might be hard to implement. First one free would make Obs a standard feature of most rotations, as an optional proc-seeking step right before Byregot's Blessing and/or an effective shortening of CZ.

That's maybe too easy. First one costing, say, 4 CP (that you'd have to budget for) and the rest costing say 8CP would be more interesting.

But before we get too complex, have some pity to poor folks who maintain our beloved simulator.

IMO, the one size fits all crafting design isn’t working well. Gearing and leveling aside, no matter how they rebalance and simplify crafting mechanics, it’s still too complicated for most players who really don’t care about learning the system. The end result is a niche crafting scene that is far too small for the developers pay attention to.

I believe that there really should be tiered difficulty levels in terms of recipes:

1. Quick, easy crafts that don’t require much more effort than a WOW style crafting system. There have to be items to draw in the crowds. With more participants, there will be more reason for the developers to spend time working on more compelling content. I’d recommend easy items that possibly cannot be HQed but should still be somewhat relevant (ie. hypothetical non-meldable i250 gear in 3.4 for instance). These crafts can also incentivize players to level a crafting class, which could lead to an interest in more difficult stuff later.

2. HW style intermediate level master crafts. These are fine for beginner to intermediate level crafters as you would be able to HQ them reliably while following a rotation and making some small optimization adjustments. These would be tailored for the style of crafting that the vast majority of dedicated end game crafters in ARR and HW favor. So it should probably be the standard difficulty for HQable items. Relatively low in difficulty but requiring you to have a small understanding of mechanics and RNG manipulation.

3. Advanced level crafts for crafters who want to master and fully utilize the system. The only crafts seen so far have been the master 2 tokens from ARR and to a lesser extent the level 50 4* crafted materials. These crafts would require a crafter to fully optimize their strategy in the same way that was required to reliably HQ the master 2 tokens. Examples of these crafts could be crafted “ornate” style gear or higher item level raid capable gear, some of which could even be untradeable. As well, recipes could include even more difficult crafted tokens that can be traded for special, unique rewards and glamours.

The major issue with the HW balance is that there is no incentive for anyone to move beyond using a suboptimal rotation unless they want to produce items to sell on the mb rapidly. Crafters are largely stuck inside the box and I’ve noticed a trend of new crafters simply putting up a few items on the mb briefly and then disappearing altogether. There is no compelling content or anything to aim for that can keep them around.

Another issue is that crafting, in general, is downright simplistic when compared to other things like battle mechanics. More complex mechanics can be introduced for advanced level or intermediate level crafts and it would be refreshing to see things like new conditions and effects. The whistle specialist ability did tease us with new conditional effects like the increase in efficiency for certain abilities when the whistle stack is a multiple of 3. This kind of effect is important for single class crafting, but the implementation wasn’t great due to your lack of control over whistle stack changes.

I think people ignore crafting mainly:

- Consume way to much time, even if you are doing very simple stuff.

- GIL is useless.

- Posible buyers are almost no existent for the majority of crafted goods.

- FXIV crafting system is complex for the sake of being complex but give players 0 options.

- MB is boring and less exciting compared to building your own shop.

- In a theme park MMO crafting is something minor unless revolve around enhance gear from dungeons/raids and consumables.

- You are forced to level everything.

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Originally Posted by LucasValetia

I have been an avid SE MMORPG Player for 13 years now. I love your games and always have. But not for the crafting. I honestly didn't think it could get any worse than FFXI as far as crafting goes. Congratulations. This game is far worse. I have avoided for a long time and this is due to the broken system. Please redo it. Please.

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Sounds like someone had an unlucky HT streak.

But hey! At least you don't have to face northeast, during waning crescent, between 2-5am on Windsday. :p

I only leveled all my crafters b/c my FC is a bunch of lazy fluffs and dont properly work on Workshop stuff. Personally i can't stand the crafting system in this game. Granted it's different by a long shot from any MMO i have ever played but my main issues are this.

Why (just like Gathering classes) is Ironworks an 100% OVERMELDED MUST to make some items yet it's Lower Ilevel to Augmented Scrip gear? That to me is just illogical at the max.

A issue im hopping is going to be fixed the same way the actual fighting classes are is Cross Class abilities. Though it doesnt matter all that much now that i'm lvl 60 in everything anyways.

My bigger issue is the amount of RNG that is put in to crafting. If RNG dictates i can completely fail trying to make an iron ingot wearing full overmelded Ironworks. If nothing else Ilevel for gear in crafting should make it so you have less chance to fail at low level crafts. Only way i can think to explain it is like how Desynthing is calculated.

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Originally Posted by Choco_Breeder_Twirly

My bigger issue is the amount of RNG that is put in to crafting. If RNG dictates i can completely fail trying to make an iron ingot wearing full overmelded Ironworks. If nothing else Ilevel for gear in crafting should make it so you have less chance to fail at low level crafts. Only way i can think to explain it is like how Desynthing is calculated.

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There are a lot of RNG free abilities available for those and ultimately, your results in crafting are 95% user dictated. RNG plays a much smaller factor than a lot of players think.

It isn't at all like melding or even gathering.

It is absolutely impossible to fail to HQ even level 60 crafts with fully melded Ironworks if you even sort of know what you're doing. Even 1 or 2 star, I haven't NQed in ages unless I did something wrong. You should have enough CP by then to use Basic Touch with Steady Hand up for all of your quality increases, which is a 100% successful quality increase. (I still have to use Hasty on starred crafts but I can still do enough to even out the RNG).

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Originally Posted by Choco_Breeder_Twirly

If RNG dictates i can completely fail trying to make an iron ingot wearing full overmelded Ironworks. If nothing else Ilevel for gear in crafting should make it so you have less chance to fail at low level crafts. Only way i can think to explain it is like how Desynthing is calculated.

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No offence, but if you're a level 60 crafter wearing Ironworks gear, while using Hasty Touch for making any level 1 to level 59 recipe items, then you're doing it all wrong.

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Originally Posted by MN_14

IMO, the one size fits all crafting design isn’t working well. Gearing and leveling aside, no matter how they rebalance and simplify crafting mechanics, it’s still too complicated for most players who really don’t care about learning the system. The end result is a niche crafting scene that is far too small for the developers pay attention to.

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If you don't like FFXIV crafting and your friends don't like it, it's very easy to come away with the impression that the vast majority of players dislike it.
In my experience, crafters tend to gravitate to companies where there are people who share their interest. Our FC has a high proportion of crafters and new players tend to pick crafting up automatically, probably because there is so much of it going on.
Certainly it's a niche activity, but I think the niche is much larger than non-crafters might imagine. Even on a tiny server like Zodiark, you'll see crafters in every major city and also in Idyllshire, MorDhona and the Beast-tribe centres pretty much at any time of day. The huge number of online resources also suggests that there is a lot of people crafting.

The main problem with 'Re-doing' crafting to suit the people who don't like it, is that it's going to upset a huge number of people who do, which is what happened when they introduced Specialisation in HW. Personally, I like the system we have and I'm hoping SB doesn't bring any drastic changes.

OP - If FFXIV crafting isn't for you, then it's not really going to impact your character very much if you don't do it. We are about to enter the second expansion, asking for major changes to a system that a lot of other people are engaged with and enjoying, especially at such a late point in the game's development, seems unreasonable to me.

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Originally Posted by Driavna

- Consume way to much time, even if you are doing very simple stuff.

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+1 completely agree. Many crafters would love a Quick Synthesis system which was actually, well you know, QUICK!!!

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Originally Posted by Driavna

- GIL is useless.

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GIL is no more or less useless than Tombstones; it is a currency. Currency is used to trade for services that you do not want to or cannot do yourself. Trying making raid food or pots without GIL and see how much time you spend gathering / crafting, instead of raiding.

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Originally Posted by Driavna

- Possible buyers are almost no existent for the majority of crafted goods.

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For early patch raid gear. I will agree with that. For alt class levelling gear and Glamour, the market is very large.

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Originally Posted by Driavna

- FXIV crafting system is complex for the sake of being complex but give players 0 options.

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There are not zero options but like anything, there more optimal options but there definitely different approaches which are viable.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Driavna

- MB is boring and less exciting compared to building your own shop.

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How would you improve it?
This one suggestion I have seen many times.
Make it more of shop order scenario, buyer places bid order, buy 15 of item X at price Y; placing the money in the retainer. MB seller comes along and fills the order, GIL is removed from buyer retainer and item is place in retainer storage.

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Originally Posted by Driavna

- In a theme park MMO crafting is something minor unless revolve around enhance gear from dungeons/raids and consumables.

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??????

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Originally Posted by Driavna

- You are forced to level everything.

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+1 completely agree. Specialist was suppose to balance this but it failed miserably.

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Originally Posted by ChameleonMS

GIL is no more or less useless than Tombstones; it is a currency. Currency is used to trade for services that you do not want to or cannot do yourself. Trying making raid food or pots without GIL and see how much time you spend gathering / crafting, instead of raiding.

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It's is, this game lack of any real GIL sink, compared to others games like BnS where an equivalent currency is needed yo upgrade your gear or WoW with his optional gold sinks having big amount of GIL will be more tempting, in FFXIV this doesn't happen. So, a regular joe don't have that incentive to craft.

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Originally Posted by ChameleonMS

For early patch raid gear. I will agree with that. For alt class levelling gear and Glamour, the market is very large.

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I disagree, during HW you can level to 60 with 130 gear with no problem at all (not to mention that PoTD is the most used way to LvL and there you don't need gear). Also, outside of consumables (if your server uses those, in my current one I hardly find any buyer for food/potions), the lack of decay create by itself a limited market.

Not to mention that everything is mad expensive compare to the gil a non-crafter generate, your average joe can't afford those prices.

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Originally Posted by ChameleonMS

There are not zero options but like anything, there more optimal options but there definitely different approaches which are viable.

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In FFXIV I can only NQ or HQ (and you want to avoid NQ like a plague), back when I played SwG I have a total control over an item stats so I can create different versions of a same item to suit my clients needs (like a weapon with high durability to grind).

But since FFXIV is a theme park you can't have this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChameleonMS

How would you improve it?
This one suggestion I have seen many times.
Make it more of shop order scenario, buyer places bid order, buy 15 of item X at price Y; placing the money in the retainer. MB seller comes along and fills the order, GIL is removed from buyer retainer and item is place in retainer storage.

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MB is the ultimate expression of QoL and by itself kill a lot of factors only present in games with players shops, also all items are the same. This can't be fixed (theme park problem again), so you can only undercut to compete and that's boring.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChameleonMS

??????

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In a sandbox all items come from crafter but in a theme park you can't do that, so the only real option is limite yourself to consumables (not only food/potions but gear improvements like enchants, gems, sharp stones, repair kits, etc) and one time only items (cosmetics mainly).

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Originally Posted by Solarra

The main problem with 'Re-doing' crafting to suit the people who don't like it, is that it's going to upset a huge number of people who do, which is what happened when they introduced Specialisation in HW. Personally, I like the system we have and I'm hoping SB doesn't bring any drastic changes.

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I can say for a certainty that HW caused a change on my server at least and it has nothing to do with specialization. Weak specialist skills don’t bother a crafter who has all of the cross-class skills since they simply wouldn’t use them. Considering their original intent, I doubt they were even designed particularly with omni-crafters in mind. The spec locks that were added after in 3.1 to slowly replace the 3.05 favor system and gear lockouts are an annoyance, but not a game breaker. You can still craft your own gear by changing specs and mass produce materials or items. As for new crafters, they are in no worse position than they were in by 2.3 or 2.4.

This is the composition of crafters that I noticed on my server in ARR:

- Most crafters were non-star crafters from levels 1-50. Many had all classes leveled but still did not move beyond maybe 1*. They just weren’t interested in higher level crafts or really learning the system. Prior to the 1* master crafts, you could HQ with a few buttons but once you hit 1*+, you had to start using a lot of your cross-class abilities to HQ an item. It was considered time consuming and not worthwhile, which is a complaint that I’ve heard to this day.

- There were “mid-core” crafters who worked on obtaining artisan’s/supra/lucis tools and both master recipe books because they were things to achieve or earn. They went through the content for the same reasons why someone might work toward clearing a raid or earning a difficult achievement. Many struggled with the master 2 books though (advanced difficulty by my definition), so it was probably a mistake to lock an entire tier of crafts behind them. Most “mid-core” crafters were actually still dedicated end game players and even raiders but didn’t have the time or patience or time to work on mastering the crafting system

- There were, of course, core crafters who could handle all of the content fairly reliably and made hundreds of millions off the MB

Things changed in HW, however. This was largely due to the watering down of the content and to make things worse, there was a failure to grab new crafters despite the dumbing down (millions of reasons for that so I won’t get into it; they are gearing/leveling issues that compounded the existing issues from ARR).

- Largest group of crafters early on were the glamour and housing crafters (usually with all classes leveled) but they mostly disappeared by 3.1. Some sold non-star master crafts.

- The “mid-core” disappeared. I had a lot of friends who dabbled in crafting as mid-core crafters back in 2.3-2.5. By 3.0, they didn’t bother with crafting anymore other than unlock the first set of master books. There was no sense of accomplishment or achievement so they just focused on other content like pvp or raiding. Among myself and my friends, I was the only one to stick with crafting.

- Most core crafters that I know still do keep up with crafting but we all agree that it’s really easy, boring, and dull right now. You don’t need to master the system at all and each tier is easier than the last (due to Maker’s mark). As well, the general strategy for each is virtually the same with some minor differences.

If they simply introduce different kinds of recipe types, they wouldn’t have to completely overhaul the mechanics or anything. You’d have one set for the players who’d rather HQ with only a few buttons (the Zhloe turn-ins and moogle quests are already an example of this kind of craft btw), other recipes for intermediate level (learning) crafters, and a final set (the challenges) for both the core and mid-core.

I just want to point out that I absolutely HATE Maker's Mark and hope it dies a fiery death (it probably won't). I refuse to use it.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

I just want to point out that I absolutely HATE Maker's Mark and hope it dies a fiery death (it probably won't). I refuse to use it.

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Haha, I can understand that. Maker's Mark have lengthened our crafting time by approximately 1/3! Crafting one item used to take about 1 to 1.5 min... now the process take 1.5 to 2.5 min. Yet, our food duration remains 30 min. I wish they had extended it to 45 min instead... Anyway, even if they extended our food to 45 min, it still doesn't make the crafting process any shorter! :P

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Originally Posted by Driavna

In a sandbox all items come from crafter but in a theme park you can't do that, so the only real option is limit yourself to consumables (not only food/potions but gear improvements like enchants, gems, sharp stones, repair kits, etc) and one time only items (cosmetics mainly).

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So, your issue as I understand it, is that because you cannot make your battle character OP with crafting the system is no good.
It was an intentional design by SE to limit crafting ability make raid quality gear. This was done to maintain the value of raid gear.

Using this as a bit of a guideline though, it would be nice to see a system added where by you can take that i250 gear piece and get an RNG role for stat change, maybe improvement, maybe loss, this system would have potential to getting raid equivalent gear without greatly impacting raid equipment value do to odds. Similar in the manner than Diadem used to work.


As for how you limit yourself, you are a vendor, you carve out a niche in the market and defeat your competition to make money. There is nothing different in that then how a RL business does things.
Why do you choose one electronics store versus another? Proximity / Price / Customer Service / Products available.
Proximity - city taxes GIL sink can determine which person you buy the item from on the MB
Price - undercutting
Customer Service - Put up a PF, shout in town or join a LS with crafters to get items at better rates than MB (trade clear services or material gathering, etc...)
Products available - Specialist recipe locks

Nope, you missed the mark. I just explained how a sandbox by nature give more options, and options don't equal op stuff, to the crafter while a theme park spin around dropped gear and at his best crafting options would involve enhanced said gear with some flux stuff here and there.

I really belive you are wrong about the market too, in RL life you don't only have a normal car and HQ car, you have multiple cars to suits multiples needs. SwG accomplished that because was a sandbox, FFXIV (or WoW or any theme park) can't afford to do something similar because of his theme park nature, the main idea behind this game is to keep players eternally grinding for gear via raids/dungeons/rep grinds/PoTD farming/Etc.

Here I can't make a superior product so no matter what much other guy undercut me, if you want the best weapon you buy mine (during a lot of time this was a thing in my sever for SwG, if you wanted the best you have to buy from that one guy with top materials and maxed experimentation). Also, I can't make more affordable products (you don't really want to buy a full iroworks NQ set here for example) for new players with little money (and since I can use a factory to mass product those I never had to ponder oportunity cost that much because was also a way to tease those same players with better products for future purchases, in FFXIV this happen to me all the time). Also, items don't get destroyed by use so a player never had to replace anything and this eventually will slow/kill a market.

As a said note you need to understand that you average joe will always use a MB (similar to how people just go to one market and buy all there instead of going searching the best offert for each individual item) if giving the option because QOL, the exactly reaseon with some players learn merchant skills in SwG, one of the perks was to show your products in a galactic bazar so people learned where to go in order to buy it.

A lot of people are offended by this and I don't know why, FFXIV is a dumbed down crafting/market system by his theme park nature, but they added gear to keep player grinding during a longer time like in PvE if you remove it all you have is WoW crafting. This is why I said is a system complex for the sake of being complex but in reality add nothing by itself.

BTW: that proximity example was "an insult" to my intelligence. Back in UO or SwG your shop accessibility was important, moving to another capital is a TP away, there can cost you even 30m of real time. So yeah, I can charge more if my shop was extremely easy to acces because the saved time was valuable, here with luck a player will notice taxes and buy the one from the city he his now.

About undercutting... you know the system is not that good when is your only option to compete with other players.

Specialist recipe sucks, is just an annoying patch to a bigger problem: allowing everyone to be everything. You either stick to one option or you don't, but a mixture it's not something I like. My fav DoH is CUL because I don't need anything from any other class to craft a final product, to me (while it's make sense) is the worst way to "force" interaction (lances and CRP -_-)

And no, I'm not hating FFXIV system or saying SwG was perfect. It's ok, keep me busy and I love when I manage to craft stuff for myself, but I still going to die a little everytime people overlook his limits and claim is "complex" (to me it's just a math problem gated behind gear), the same way I died a little when someone belive himself a master economist by "playing" the MB.

This sandbox you speak: does it given enough effort grant everyone the ability to make the same superior products you talked about? If so, how is that different what you are complaining about here? Once you have reached the top tier, the stuff you make is no better than the stuff from the next guy. A sandbox as you describe is will not be much of a gate because player will eventually just grind through it.

You are from a smaller server, so was I back in the beginning. While I was there, I was one of a very small number of crafters had the Master Book II recipes unlocked. Those book unlocks were pretty difficult and this led to a situation similar to what you are talking about SwG. Very little competition because a small oligopoly controlled the high end market. In larger scales economies this becomes irrelevant because your competition pool is larger. Also, in Heavensward the requirements for those master recipes became trivial and gating was done with Specialization.

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About undercutting... you know the system is not that good when is your only option to compete with other players.

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So you are saying that RL stores put products on sale for a different reason? There only four reasons I know of:
1. To be a lost leader to generate foot traffic for other products. [this has almost no applicability in this game because we do not have our own stores in this game; which would be a neat idea but it would suffer the same problems Ul'dah's market does. Wrong location, very limited traffic, and many players upset]
2. To undercut the competition
3. To clear inventory before it becomes a loss (e.g. produce going bad) [consumables from a couple patches ago would apply here; I used to make a Cockatrice Meatballs, now you can barely give them away]
4. To clear inventory space before new products arrive [our overloaded retainers]

For a time in early HW, some items like Dravanian Mistletoe were only available from gathering, this lead very high prices for base items. SE then made these items available for purchase from a vendor. After that, the price on MB has pretty much always been lower than the vendor price. All the non-player competition did was lower the price. All other factors and behaviours remained the same. If you are not competing against other players, who should you compete against?

No, the sandbox I speak also produced basic materials with random stats, so the same type of ore (to say something) can be perfect for one week and a piece of crap during the rest of the year each week, so even those "perfect" weapons will stop being produce at some point and become more rare and expensive. Another scenario is a total crash of a market during a time till said material become rare again, so yeah, you can even hoard rare mats and sold those for millions of credits months laters, here you can't do that, after a patch (if even), everything just loses value.

Anyway, I don't know why you are arguing this, a crafting system with decay (yeah, items breaking by use will open the market for everyday gear to save top tier just for very specific content, is so obvious that blow my main away how people skip this detail) that doesn't produce the exact same item is more complex and interesting, period. In this last post you are talking like I'm against competition when all I'm saying is that FFXIV doesn't have any option outside undercutting because crafters produce the same items with no options and said items, outside food and potions, don't need to be replaced ever again.

Lastly, I invite you to think for a second how limited NQ/HQ system, in special when for HQ you don't even need HQ materials. I know is a game, but the very concept is stupid, if you craft a sword with bad materials is going to be bad no matter what compared to another crafted sword with superior materials.

Ok, the recommendation is to return the crafting system to same RNG system that has been done to death in other games. Gather the materials, stick'em in the box and press button and pray. Alright, I get where you are coming from. This crafting system is simple little math mini-game with fixed predefined outcomes. So, the best of both worlds would be to keep the math mini-game but change the stats on finished products. Change them from fixed values to an RNG range.

Adversarial discussion, often mistaken as an argument, is an effect methodology to elicit productive ideas and clarify points of view. No one is right or wrong, just offering points of view.

Many players like the math mini game. Many player like the reliability of quality of the finished products.
In keeping with the NQ / HQ, it would affect the ranges of the RNG. The more completion you achieve, the higher the base stats could be thus improving the reliability of quality. And still maintain the ability for ultra-rare superior quality items.

e.g.
Weapon damage ranges: 50 - 60 at 0%, 52-60 at 25%, 54-61 at 50%, 55-61 at 75%, 56-62 at 90%, 57 - 63 at 100% : Or, some kind of improving sliding scale.
Then apply this same type of logic to all applicable stats.

The goal would always be to get 100% quality but that will no guarantee an optimal outcome. And, due to RNG, a lower quality out come could still produce a weapon of the same quality as the 100% quality craft.

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Originally Posted by ChameleonMS

... the best of both worlds would be to keep the math mini-game but change the stats on finished products. Change them from fixed values to an RNG range.
The goal would always be to get 100% quality but that will no guarantee an optimal outcome. And, due to RNG, a lower quality out come could still produce a weapon of the same quality as the 100% quality craft.

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So, crafted items might be like pink Diadem drops: a fixed iLvl (that ought to be higher for HQ, frankly) and some randomness in the stats (perhaps only in the secondary stats).

Sounds fun, and I suspect most of the mechanisms are already coded.

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Originally Posted by ChameleonMS

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No you don't, SwG did not have any RNG outside how resource generates, how much you can tweak the stats of any given item was determined by your experimentation (gear, food and city bonus) and the quality of your materials.

I never made any suggestion because you can't implement anything of what I said to FFXIV, is a theme park not a sandbox. I just give examples about why crafting and economy are so limited and why the crafting process offers a "fake" complexity (is the only difference vs WoW/GW2/EQ2 and similars), but there is nothing SE can really do about it.

And I will say again, I'm not hating on FFXIV crafting but it is what it is.

dont get me wrong i dont fail these synths but just a bit ago before i got hasty touch i was trying to crafting something simple (i dont remember what it was) and i had 10 fails in a row... not including things like Ticks of the Trade or Satisfaction... it was bordering rage inducing

This is far from a bad system. A bad system is EverQuest's system where you gathered what you hoped were the right materials, put them into the slots in whatever your class used and hit the combine button. You either made the item or you failed and lost everything. It was completely RNG. You had no control at all on the outcome. There was no recipe book or anything that told you where to find materials. This was all done by fan websites like Allakhazam or EQ Traders where the community pooled their knowledge on these things.

I much prefer the minor mini-game that games like FFXIV and EQII have.