Well it wouldn't surprise me... if you did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
You are under the impression this job even NEEDS an "improvement" other than the normal progression the job is already on. Its already been done... by moving in the opposite direction.
I am looking at a guide right now written by one of those SMNs who was there... and brings up just how they balanced the job is now and how bad it really was to play back then, and how much better it is today vs it was more of a pet oriented job.
On top of that I can directly say those AoEs are critical to the jobs placement and nich in this game. It has a serious role, one that doesn't conflict with the BLM either, but rather harmonizes with it.
And on top of that doesn't conflict with its Support Class side which is known as the Scholar so even those portions are well divided and well balanced.
Yet in your previous arguments you were more than willing to toss all that out like it was nothing.
How Would You Do... Summoner?
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05-20-2017, 06:31 AMSilverquick
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05-21-2017, 12:48 AMOkamimaru
There isn't really a problem with the class other than the name... just change the name and give every class it's own personal summon style limit break that builds up kinda like the limit break meter.... you charge it up and when you use it is up to you....
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05-21-2017, 12:56 AMIromi
I would give Contagion to the Summoner first off. Then change the looks of the egi, make em look a but more epic ^^ then make more egi....not glamour ones, with buffs and debuffs skills...other then that I guess I'd leave the job be. At this point all I would like to see is more pet skills.
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05-21-2017, 10:27 AMAllyrionQuote:
Originally Posted by Silverquick
Just to start, I want to say I'm generally on the same side as you on this issue. I like the current SMN and I think the additions in HW was the perfect direction for it (for me anyway). I never wanted an emphasis on pet micromanagement, and I don't think FF summons have ever been about that anyway (minus 11).
But I think you're mistaken on how SMN was before. It was never that focused on the pet. People complaining now about that, they complained back then too. The 60 rotation only filled out the down time of the 60 one and added an aoe (Tri-disaster being more of a QoL change). The downtime being waiting for aetherflow after using up all your stacks.
Any min-maxing the pet back then should be done now too. It was only focused on back then because SMN had less to do and the pet's damage was a bigger percent of our overall damage since our rotation has less skills. But the bare-bones pet management system now wasn't any more involved at 50.
And though SMN sucked in Final Coil, why is that the only thing people remember? During the First and Second, SMN was the best single target ranged dps. A good SMN could compete with a MNK in terms of raw dps while they also brought more utility like a battle rez (while not being the healer).
This also brings up the next point. I wouldn't hold a ton of weight in SMN as an aoe class being an important niche. Precisely because BLM was once king of all AoE for so long, no one would believe it is the way it is now. SMN being great at single target meant that indeed the casters were balanced like that before but since it was flipped, I don't think it's something to hold on to.
Some jobs will always have better AoE but being an AOE class is not a thing. Luckily, SMN's single target is still good and doesn't suffer for it.
Lastly, let's be real about popularity. SMN went from the least flashy class to what might be the most flashy. That, I firmly believe, accounts for most of the rise in popularity. Viability doesn't always lead to popularity. MNK was the least popular in most of ARR while being the highest dps.
The other reason is a lot of BLM's switched because people like AoE and they went to the new king of AoE. Those same people will switch again if SMN's AoE isn't better than BLM or RDM after the scaling, new skills and general damage adjustments at 70. There's really no guarantees it will be.
(Did I mention MNK went from laughable-just-give-up AoE to the best melee AoE job with one skill going into 60. Do not trust SE to let you keep your niche.)
The only thing I would like with SMN is for the egi's to show up with some of the abilities. It could even just be the new skills, rather than redoing the old ones. No pet management, just more visuals to show mastery over the egi's.
I wouldn't like the Egi to look too much like the originals just because of the lore. It's already a little handwavey how they justified SMN while making the primals inherently destructive presences (not just to our enemies). If they actually looked like mini-versions, it would be too much imo.
My ideal SMN would not be dot based. It would be a pure nuking class. It would not have even have pet though it might have skills to summon an uncontrollable ones temporarily (though the current pet isn't horrible). All of its skills would have a visual that includes the Egi appearing to do the damage. Similar to the Wildfire animation where you see the machine appear next to the mob and it blows fire one it.
None of that will happen but that's what I would do. The development of Dreadwyrm is a fine path too and I would keep that with mine as well. I think SMN has only improved since ARR. -
05-22-2017, 05:37 AMSarynth
OK so, been wanting to make a post in this thread because even though SE probably won't change smn any time soon I thought it'd be fun to get the ideas out there at least.
So starting off...
35 bonus attribute points tied to job stones (not like its really a choice where they go anyway)
Also egi are same size but art style changed to be similar to carbuncle art style.
Increase types of carbunles for egi glamours as well.
Enkindle replaced by Astral Flow.
Astral Flow: Allows the casting of your egi's signature ability
. Increases magic damage dealt by 10% while lowering the MP cost of Ruin III.
Can only be executed when Aethertrail Attunement stack is 3.
Aethertrail Attunement is achieved when an Aetherflow action used by you inflicts an effect on a target.
Duration: 15s.
note about Astral Flow: each egi has its own unique animation for its signature ability similar to how trance/deathflare
have Bahamut animations currently.
Miasma 2 replaced with Mana Cede
Mana Cede: Slowly drains mp to increase the potency of the current egis actions including actions unlocked by enkindle.
300 mp per tick (3 second server ticks) in exchange for 20 potency increase to actions. Only affects egi actions.
Bio 2 replaced with Poison (same potency, duration etc. just a name and icon change)
Contagion: now an acn ability, Garuda egi gains "Predator Claws"
Predator Claws: Delivers a four hit attack for 30 potency each hit. Individual hits can crit. 120 potency total.
Ruin 2: increased to 100 potency and blind effect removed.
Limit Break 3 unchanged (Teraflare seems fitting for smn since their allagan ties in lore)
Dreadwyrm Trance/Deathflare/Tri-bind: removed and replaced with... (not sure what potency to give the new egis below tbh just giving ability names)
Shiva-egi:
Axe kick
Double Slap
Rush
Heavenly Strike
Diamond Dust (Astral Flow)
Ramuh-egi:
Shock Strike
Rolling Thunder (aoe stun)
Chaotic Strike
Thunderstorm
Judgement Bolt (Astral Flow)
Leviathan-egi:
Tail Whip
Slowga
Grand Fall
Spinning Dive
Tidal Wave (Astral Flow)
*edited for clarity -
05-23-2017, 01:30 AMNeela- juppQuote:
Originally Posted by Iromi
- jupp
- jupp
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05-23-2017, 02:49 AMDyvid
Well at least they finally added a proper Bahamut Summon. Only suggested it two years ago to replace trance head >_>
Still think they should change summons for more utility in combat:
Summon 1 = Tank Pet
Summon 2 = Melee Single Target DPS Pet
Summon 3 = Ranged AoE DPS Pet -
05-23-2017, 03:24 AMSilverquickWell right now with Deathflare... I can wipe out whole packs of 6-10 mobs... with my sidecar DPS with just Painflares, Deathflare/Teraflare, Bane DoTs, and Garuda Aerial Blast, in about 30 seconds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarynth
Will I be able to do that with these new Egis?
If I can't... then we just locked the SMN back at 50th level while the rest of the Jobs moved on to 70th level... -
05-23-2017, 03:43 AMOkamimaruI bet you were the kid in art class in elementary school who told other kids they drew monsters wrong... we KNOW you like things as they are, we get it.... you main SMN... but let's be real you only care about damage and not the spirit of summoner.... this thread is how would you make summoner, you instead rip apart anything that isn't in line with your "big-d*ck dps or it's total garbage" mentality... at this point you're posts are more tedious and annoying than useful in any way besides to stroke your own overinflated ego....Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverquick
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05-23-2017, 03:51 AMSarynthPretty much yes, not that I don't like deathflare (I love it actually) but you pick your summon based on content then astral flow abilities would work similar to how it is currently. Should probably refine my post for more clarity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverquick
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05-23-2017, 03:59 AMSilverquickREALITY CHECK:Quote:
Originally Posted by Okamimaru
This is a DPS class... it queues in the DPS queue... its not a support class and can't queue with the healers...
It can't just sit and look kewl so you can watch shinies... Yeah imagination and coolness factor only last until you have to get through that instance... OR compete with other Jobs and get through the instance...
If you can't pull the DPS... you're not going to be wanted. Like... back in ARR... and why people bolted the Job in mass numbers, because it could not compete or even come close to BLM.
As to the SUMMONER job and the "Intents"...
And on top of that... in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM... does a "pet job" version of a SMN come anywhere near the Traditional FF Summoner... no matter which game you look at...
FF VII
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvErgY6HpX8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1no4OdDult4
FF Tactics
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhUwX-AI4cs
FF3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyWMyfh1iPY
In other words...
Its always in all FF games treated as more of a BLM style really flashy Nuke... not as some pet who stays with you all the time and a power inherent to the Summoner... not as some pet -
05-23-2017, 04:13 AMDyvidMy AoE was fine at 50, 3.0 just added a little more too it. But that aside, the only time AoE is really useful is on trash mobs and the main source of trash mobs is dungeon. Not a lot of use for AoE in Raids and Trial Ex so you argument is moot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverquick
I agree with some of your idea like contagion but the pet problem is still an issue, one the devs are struggling with too. Adding new Egi is fine but you have the issue on how to make each one useful. The history of the series has you swap summons out because of timers or useful spells.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarynth
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05-23-2017, 04:14 AMJerbobI'll be the first to admit that I've not played every - or even most - of the FF games. However, in the ones I have played, whenever a summoner does something related to summoning, something big appears to do all the hard lifting work. Sure, it's a graphical effect and not a "pet" in most cases, but then again a spell is just a melee attack with pretty lights in most FFs. Where do you draw the line?Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverquick
My point is, Summoner as a direct damage job (or DoT job for that matter) is no more "accurate" with regards to historical FF than the pet model. I'm sure the FF history buffs among us can state an exception or two, but for the vast majority of actual summoning that takes place, something shows up in response. Summoner's trances are actually fairly inaccurate by that metric. -
05-23-2017, 04:23 AMSilverquickIncorrect...Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerbob
Its never a pet job... ever, with only a few exceptions... one is FFXI... which that model doesn't fit this game...
The rest it was always a large flashy nuke... a one large single target AoE hit that wipe out enemies...
Which is exactly what Deathflare currently does... what few if any of them ACTUALLY have... is a pet that sticks around. -
05-23-2017, 04:25 AMOkamimaruNot saying it has to be a pet job but the goddamn thing should feel like a summoner... and as for your constant b.s. about its not a support class guess what brd is a dps with support skills.... beyond resurrect what utility skills does SMN have? Psysic? Essentially useless on SMN... you may not realize it but almost all classes now have support abilities... even dps... nobody is saying weaken it or make it full support... people want it to FEEL like a summoner... you have no loyalty to summoner only to the numbers.... if the dps is the same using the current system as any of the proposed systems then what's the problem? You say that people will flee the class of they did things different and while it may be true for people like you, plenty of other people would swap to summoner because it's actually a summoner... you know that SUMMONS things....Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverquick
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05-23-2017, 04:29 AMSilverquickWell having played both BLM and SMN at level 50 in the same gear... no actually you can't compete with it at level 50. That changes at level 52 once you get Painflare.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyvid
Flare far outclasses SMN damage. As does Fire 3 on single targets, that's why in the early guides it talks about it... and why everyone bolted SMN for BLM back then, and why they were unwanted in upper level areas.
And having played them both at that level... yeah I found they were telling me the truth...
And luckily because Deathflare does so much damage in a one shot hit, it actually works just fine in Raids and Ex Trials, as witnessed by the FFLogs. -
05-23-2017, 04:42 AMOkamimaruFF10 summons could be controlled and even leveled up.... ff12 summons rampaged around beside you until the skill wore off usually with a nuke to end it's rampage...ff13 had summons that could be controlled while they were summoned as well... in addition to what you've said about 11... seems to me they wanted to go more summon control... 10, 11, 12, 13... by your logic because most of the series is turned based 14 should be too...Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverquick
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05-23-2017, 04:52 AMSilverquick
I distinctly remember playing FF10... and there were no pets for Summoner not in the classic sense.
Did play FF11... in that game the SMN was a half assed White Mage with no abilities. And the Summons were pretty weak and drained your MP too fast to be used as actual Pets.
Never played 12 or 13...
But I have played pretty much all of them previously.... All of the Summons were little more than large scale nukes with a one shot AoE attack... and I linked them for you...
I do not know here you can sit there with a straight face and somehow claim after saying that it doesn't "feel" like a Summoner.
The one that doesn't "feel" like a Summoner is a half assed pet class from FFXI. -
05-23-2017, 04:55 AMJerbob
With all due respect, I don't think I have much interest in replying to Silverquick any longer. Best of luck, everyone.
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05-23-2017, 05:06 AMLambdafish14 is a massive callback to the original game pre-7 though. I think the new Bahamut animation perfectly captures what SMN should be, a job about big flashy summon animations that are temporary. Summons aren't iconic for being persistent, they are iconic for their signature attack, regardless of how later games (post sakaguchi bear in mind) have tried to change things up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Okamimaru
Saying that SMN is about pets is like saying that RDM is a pure caster with support skills. -
05-23-2017, 05:29 AMOkamimaruyou have some weird obsession with FF11 for some reason... seriously almost every post you make is about comparing things to 11 and how terrible it was.... im sorry that a game was so traumatizing for you that it still haunts you to this day... but the recent trend (not including 15 which to me was barely FF) has been to have the summons come out and last longer than the simple nuke attack... but whatever youre clearly not going to listen to anybody else...Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverquick
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05-23-2017, 04:23 PMSarynth
I just have to ask silver, did you play smn in ffxi at 75 or 99? Because with perpetuation cost gear/refresh on gear/auto refresh/ convert/etc avatars did not drain your mp too fast and you could even keep a positive mp tick going. Not to mention they weren't half passed whm's they were used in endgame content for pet buffs, pet burns and magic bursting on skillchains.
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05-23-2017, 06:37 PMLegion88For this I would like to show the concept of SMN how I think the job would fit as a on-the-fly adjustable job for heavy AoE or single target encounters with summon dependent support utility.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
As first Step, this concept would kill ACN and absorb it, so SCH would probably need some rework or adjustment to this but that is not part of this concept.
Main Mechanic:
I decided to use the trance system introduced with 3.0 for SMN and extend on this also i don't use any pet at all.
SMN gets Carbuncle as an early "lesser" or "normal" summon and with levels and jobquests he can unlock up to 3 slots for "primal" or "Egi" summons.
With additional sidequests SMN can unlock more primal summons, some specific for PvP, or PvE or for both.
In short, SMN summons an egi to enter the corresponding trance for X seconds, like Bahamut Trance. The summon gives the SMN a set of summon specific actions (basic actions, trance consuming action, trance ending/signature action), on a second parallel GCD, like the summon has it's own GCD.
The actions of the SMN himself are more or less some DoTs and low damage filler abilities with the main goal to support the summon.
To provide a variety of used and useful summons you can't use the same summon twice in a row, so you have to cycle throught at least 2 different summons.
Every summon causes a utility/buff by its summoning.
If you use an action from your summon and it hits an enemy with DoTs/debuffs from its SMN it will extend the duration of them.
With the loss of the summons as pets, their is also no tank pet.
Every summon will instead be somewhere between "full AoE damage" and "allmost no AoE" with some variety in AoE size and supporting actions.
Also SMN itself will lose its range and will fall on the half of the original range by also losing most of his casttimers.
New Lore:
After encountering the first primals the Allagans needed something to prevent their troops to get tempered.
The invention of choice was a soul crystal with the power to absorb corrupted aether and purge the wearer from it.
After extended tests the allagan scientist found a way to use the stored corrupted aether to manipulate the summoning of carbuncles and created the first egis.
As it seems the egis, less in power than their corresponding primals, can temper their SMN by long enough time of summoning. The soul crystal gets numerous additions and adjustments to make it more save to summon egis and use them in battle.
The catchword for this rework would be: "no pets", "summons as shiny animations for trances and actions", "high mobile, low range"
I'm not good in explaining this...but i hope some will understand what i mean by this concept. -
05-23-2017, 10:47 PMTheGothmog
the main problem with summoner is aetherflow,everything revolves around it. the dots take to long to cast on each mob,but bane is only good under aetherflow.deathflare is to erratic,about 255 of the time it want let me cast,even if i use the same combo to get it.ruin 3 is a joke,to expand to long to cast,can cast more ruin 2 that do more dmg in time to cat 1 ruin 3,unless of course you have trance on which of course mean you need aetherflow.so you spend your time waiting on ONE spell over and over.its use is over in an instant than back to waiting.
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05-24-2017, 04:21 AMDyvid
In the spirit of the post I'll toss my ideas down again.
Reduce Summon 1, 2, 3, 4 casting time to 2.5
Summon 1: Tank pet. Needs to have provoke skill, AoE increase enmity skill, defense buff, and stun
Summon 2: Ranged AoE DPS pet: Needs to weak AoE attack, strong AoE attack, AoE heavy, AoE DoT attack.
Summon 3: Single Target Melee DPS Pet: Needs weak attack with short GCD, Strong attack with long GCD, Elemental Spike that works like Radiant Shield.
Summon 4: PvP based pet that mainly focuses on debuff and crowd control. Reason for this is because PvP is really the only element in the game that requires CC abilities. PvE is based more on two tanks that control the flow of combat.
Remove Tri-Bind and replace it with Contagion, this is a must must must.
Increase duration of Miasma II to 30s
Increase healing done by Sustain and Physick does bonus healing to pets