Oh yeah because.... you know... you obviously do play main it right? ....and of course any changes will totally affect YOU and...Quote:
Originally Posted by Yorumi
....NOT THE PEOPLE WHO MAIN IT OR PLAY IT REGULARLY... right??
Or are you that arrogant that you truly believe you should just hop on and dictate to the people who do play it how the class SHOULD be?
Don't know how much more clear I can make that.
Necromancer Identity Crisis
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05-16-2017, 04:37 AMSilverquick
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05-16-2017, 04:51 AMYorumiIt's not hard to play multiple jobs. Using invalid arguments, logical fallacies, and irrationality is a good way to look like an idiot though. It's a very strong indicator that a person cannot defend their position at all, and essentially lends credibility to opposing positions by default. Really, person A presents a logically valid argument, person B bases the foundation of their argument on whether or not someone clicked a button a forum that is utterly meaningless when it comes to what they play in game. You havn't really contributed at all except name calling and whining that someone didn't click summoner before posting. Heck the original suggestion of a name change wouldn't even affect you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverquick
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05-16-2017, 04:58 AMSilverquickYeah I totally called it...Quote:
Originally Posted by Yorumi
You really are here to do just what I said... without even giving a damn what the people who actually play the job and main it say...
Do you really think any changes you want to make in the Summoner aren't going to majorly impact the people who actually DO main it and play it regularly?
Don't worry though, your arrogance isn't singular.... given the number of other people commenting on this thread that don't main it either... but somehow claim everyone else who does main it or play it regularly... should cater to them. -
05-16-2017, 05:00 AMNerisuJust because they play it less than you doesn't mean their points become less valid but if that's how you want to put it then it's like you saying that my points are more valid than yours simply because I have more experience playing as FFXIV's summoner. That's not how it works, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverquick
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05-16-2017, 05:04 AMYorumiOk one last one because I'm strongly starting to suspect you're trolling. Two questions. 1. Where does it say you cannot play any job not listed as your main on the forums? 2. If you're not willing to even read posts you're replying to, why are you replying?Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverquick
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05-16-2017, 05:04 AMSilverquick
Well guess what there dude...
Maybe you should start thinking this through first... -
05-16-2017, 05:12 AMShurrikhanLet's just check something real quick...Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverquick
Player 1 plays Summoner for 33% of content gametime, out of a total of 1000 hours.
Player 2 plays Summoner for 80% of content gametime, out of a total of 300 hours.
Would the opinions of Player 1 towards Summoner, as a mere "alt", then be weightless or otherwise invalid?
What's all this ruckus about "mains" this far into an expansion anyways? Are you refusing to gear up and master other jobs? Is it an exclusive loyalties kind of thing, emphasized even over becoming a well-rounded player who can help a new SB raid team in whatever way is needed? -
05-16-2017, 05:42 AMIromi
I've been here since 1.0, and been playing SMN as my main since 2.0 launch and, now that you mention it OP, Summoner really does feel like some kind of Necromancer. I love the class as it is now..and I will continue to stick with it as SMN has always been my favorite since its release in the FF series, to XI, to XIV. Heh, it would be cool if they renamed it to Necromancer..I'd love it actually :3
However! I would prefer to at least have a pet class..but I, like some others, have given up long on XIV having a pet class. All it comes down to really is that this team just cannot do it.
Also..glancing over the thread..someone said they were a gimp healer in XI? I don't know what kind of people they were playing with..but SMN was anything BUT a /WHM. I played SMN since XI launch in 2003 and only in EXP parties did I buff/heal, etc. In end game content I was always there for Predator Claws and Spinning Dive. If some end game linkshell has summoners attending events to heal...I really question their motives lol. In Dynamis as Summoner I also would just do damage non stop..and I had the BIS gear sets so I could practically have my pets out for free. So next time..speak for yourself..I loved SMN in XI. For healer in FFXI I would always go WHM. -
05-16-2017, 05:57 AMSilverquick
Yeah but that's what it required Iromi,
You needed specialized equipment to even run the thing, otherwise just having it out sucked your MP dry.
I remember Corbunkle couldn't even beat simple mobs at lower levels. The only thing you had back then was the other summons, and you had to go through a complicated quest and very hard instance just to get the other ones.
Consequently the only way they could get groups was to sub WHM and act as a half assed healer. But healers were in such short supply they still had a nich. But they were far from anything noteworthy. Sure the 2hr ability was good, but having a really powerful 2hr, meant you could only use it once ever two hours.
I started as a Red Mage and went to 75th with it, and decided to give SMN a try, I was warned left and right about how gimped the thing was. But I figured you know, sometimes people exaggerate too much...
Then I actually went through all the trouble to get the Summons and wow what a PoS it was. It was hell working the thing up from scratch when you didn't even have any of your own spells other than what you sub, and even getting it to middle levels you literally had to sub WHM to even get a group.
Sure it looked cool on the surface, but wow actually playing it really sucked badly. It was anything but powerful or a Summoner.
Eventually after seriously struggling to get the thing to level 40 I finally gave up and said... nope no more... this thing is a worthless PoS, that only looks kewl while getting its rear end handed to it. -
05-16-2017, 06:23 AMIromi
Oh silver, that is why, hehe you quit summoner at 40? if you didn't get it to 75 I can see why you feel that way ^^ 70 is where summoner got pretty good, and in end game is was enjoyable :)
I hope in 4.0 they don't change summoner too drastically...its in a nice spot atm. -
05-16-2017, 07:22 AMJerbobI can't help but get incredibly frustrated when I read stories like this. It seems to be commonplace that people complain about XI's SMN when they have very little personal experience of the job itself. There was a lot that was wrong with it, true, but as people have pointed out in this thread, the theory was sound - the developers at the time just had no idea how a pet job should function.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverquick
Furthermore, XI's SMN today is actually much improved - and the formula hasn't changed. It's still there and it's still going strong using the same principles. I was playing SMN yesterday, and two people were playing SMN at my linkshell event this evening. If either of them cast a healing spell from their subjob, I didn't see it.
I'd just like people who repeat what they've heard about XI's SMN "being a healer" or "being weak" or "just curing" to actually think about what they're saying and look at some more up-to-date material, is all. Wings of the Goddess was 10 years ago, after all, and a lot of the complaints are being made in the context of gameplay that's even earlier. Kiting bombs with Carbuncle was literally a decade ago.
Using XI's SMN as “proof” for why a different Summoner in XIV is impossible is flawed logic at best, and deliberately unhelpful at worst.
On the topic of Necromancer, I agree with much that's been said by the OP and those supporting them. XIV's SMN is fine mechanically and where all the numbers are concerned, but it's deeply disappointing as a job that holds the Summoner name. DoT-based jobs are fine - and fun! - but it's certainly not what I expect when the Summoner name is involved.
Certainly it shouldn't be removed or reworked, as a lot of people like it - and with good reason. But I do think it should be renamed. That way the people who enjoy the current gameplay can look forward to more of the same, without some of the playerbase asking for something the current SMN enthusiasts don't want. And there's even potential for a different Summoner to appear in the future. Everyone wins!
Most incarnations of Summoners haven't been pet jobs, but I really do think it's the best way to go when looking at an MMO. No-one wants 2 minute long cutscenes for summoning and I don't think people just want a clone of BLM, so having that pet proxy is a good way to solve both of those issues. Make it look decent, make it the focal point of the job's damage, drastically improve pet management functions, etc etc. There's no reason it couldn't work in XIV aside from stubbornness from the developers and the idea that every job in XIV has to be a "reimagining" of the classic – a poisonous idea that vehemently disagree with.
A lot of people like the trance mechanic, but I really don't share an appreciation for it - I can only see the cop-out that the developers have made in order to make Summoner "fit in" with their ideal homogeneous jobs system, and not something that could have been unique and cater to players that enjoy something a bit different.
As for lore... well, lore is infinitely mutable. The developers have wrapped up SMN in this cocoon of lore that threatens to crush the life out of it, and they've done that to serve their purposes. In fact, they've already broken their own rules by introducing Summoner in the first place - They've created "the Egi clause" to excuse their introduction of summonable Primals. THEY decide how the rules are broken - they can do it just as easily for a different breed of Summoner, if they so choose. It just takes one NPC to make a discovery out of the blue - they do that all the time - and the way could be opened. They're choosing not to, and lore is an excuse, not a reason. -
05-16-2017, 10:15 AMAugustinesShadow
Silver, your argument is still "I don't want my job to change! I don't want a XI Summoner clone!" which I'm not saying should occur. I'm just saying that the DoT specialist class you enjoy just needs a new name so that there can be actual Summoners who actually Summon things.
If nothing else your dogged determination is impressive (if unproductive). You're very noticeably and empirically in the minority (in this and other threads, I've noticed) but you're a very VOCAL minority.
At least you're not like Kaitoo, who still has yet to make a coherent point of any kind.
Don't feel threatened. It's great that you enjoy your job, but the job you're enjoying is DoT specialization and burst damage off of it. I don't think that job needs to go away. I just think it needs a new, more appropriate name. -
05-16-2017, 10:16 AMAugustinesShadow
To those screaming that I want things rewritten and the game changed all around, that's not consistent with my original post or premise. Keep your words in your own mouth. There's no reason they can't write in an explanation of why what we think is a Summoner now actually turns out to be some other name.
I'm also not asking for 5-minute cut scenes and exorbitant MP costs. Actually I have a number of ideas on how the "New" Summoner could fit right in with current game mechanics, but alarmists who think I'm trying to destroy Necromancer/Warlock instead of just getting it recategorized are too busy indulging in histrionics to have an adult discussion. -
05-16-2017, 12:49 PMOkamimaru
this kinda bothers me... i enjoy the class but its hard to call it summoner... green mage maybe... tri-disaster was the summon Tritoch's attack in FF6, it should be a lightning/fire/ice attack not disease... ive said since we dont really have a element wheel in the game have summons all do the same damage, using different aoe zones, and each giving a non stacking bonus (+1) to one stat (titan +1 vit, Ifrit+1 str, ruda +1 mind) carry this on to new egis (shiva +1 int, levi +1 pie, ramuh +1 dex)... make egis look more like their full primal counterparts (im not saying huge primals but come on the primal windup minions look better than the egi we have)... it wouldnt change the class as we have it but it would make it feel more "summoner" like
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05-16-2017, 12:56 PMzcrash970I'm generally curious on what you think what your idea of how a more traditional summoner could work in FF14. The only ways I can think of it are:Quote:
Originally Posted by AugustinesShadow
1) A job that is completely focused on their pets and all abilities go through said pet (beastmaster)
2) A job that focuses on support abilities with a mix of dps ( basically what FF11 tried to do and what our brd/mch do)
3)A job that that focuses on heavy dmg through high risk spells, high mp costs with high cast times, with minimal support options ( probably wouldn't work because more than likely it will have longer cast times than blm or risk being similar to blm)
4) A job that summons egis to leaves lasting effects on the field that can sync up with other summons' effects ( basically combos)
5) A job where the summons react to what the player casts and amplifies the caster's spells ( kinda like Contagion but on a much wider scale)
6) (My personal favorite) A job that has the current egis but have multiple trances for different elements. Each trance has different spells and effects and pets so the player will need to stance dance and you'll build up energy for your ultimate trance. Dreadwyrm Trance ( basically combining FF114 SMN with GW2 elementalist)
When it comes down to it, summoner just does not have much potential in a mmo especially one like FF14. Combat is far to simply for any advance class mechanics and it has way too much movement for a traditional summoner to work. -
05-16-2017, 01:29 PMRyanRebs
Im happy with Summoner , I quit BLM for it . The power of aoe and calling to power of bahamut is so satisfying on its own. We may get 1 more pet to serve the utility role . Never know
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05-16-2017, 03:59 PMDyvidHonestly the DoT dps isn't a bad design choice for a pet job. It allows the player to have continuous damage while controlling pets. The problem is FFXIV does really require control of pet so you need something to fill that gap. 2.0 it was spamming ruin and 3.0 it's building up trances.Quote:
Originally Posted by AugustinesShadow
That's a tough one. I don't want any job to face skill bloating so something like FFXI avatar's would be an issue though it was nice to have a wide selection of abilities based on summons. I also want to open the door to many different egi but this causes and issue of what each pets role is. I guess summon and release would address both issues but basically turn egi from pet to spells. I suppose another method would be to make a pet rotation system based on the elemental wheel; were you cast fire > ice > wind > earth > lightning > water. You could even extend this to Bahamut by making him dark then Alexander, light.Quote:
Originally Posted by zcrash970
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05-16-2017, 04:25 PMAvenoMatt
I love SMN but I understand why a lot of players don't feel the SMN we have isn't a real "Summoner". Maybe a way to implement the type of summoner players want is to have a job that casts spell combos that finish with them temporarily summonering a primal that would perform an action be it a burst attack, aoe or some form of utility.They are essential a spell weaver that has summons completing their combos.
As for the renaming of SMN, I don't like Necromancer. I do see the reasoning behind it but I don't like it mainly because I don't think it pairs well with SCH. I think Shaman would be better. Based on what I know a shaman can channel/summon spirits and can even enter trace like states. Though shamans are mainly healers there is no reason why they can't be a dps. I mean a SCH is a healer but it's spreading diseases and casting field of shadows. -
05-16-2017, 08:09 PMCaprianaI don't think I have ever seen a Shaman job in any of the final fantasy games, but could be wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by AvenoMatt
Secondly, I think if we get a Necromancer job it has to be similar to the one in FF V:
Oh .. the salt ... the SALT.Quote:
The downside to the Necromancer is their inherent undead status, making healing them a chore. Various methods can be used to bypass this, such as White Wind or the Necromancer's Drain Touch skill.
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05-16-2017, 08:18 PMSilverquickNo no...Quote:
Originally Posted by AugustinesShadow
I just have serious problems with someone like you who doesn't even play the job regularly (Plays WHM, not even a DPS)... walking in and saying Oh this needs a whole new rework because its not the summoner I PERSONALLY wanted... Screw everyone else ...
Yeah of course I have a serious problem with that.
And I hate to tell you this, but the only "Majority" I'm seeing on the other side of the ball are people like you who MAIN OTHER jobs... but don't play this thing regularly.. .
Yet here I can walk around any given day... on the server and just see one SMN after another enjoying the Job for what it is...
Sorry to break it to you sweetheart... but its YOU in the minority. -
05-16-2017, 08:38 PMNatsuno
I like summoner as is, but this tread got me thinking on how to move it away from it's arcanist or "necromancer" feel. I have a couple of ideas.
The first would be to flat out replace the base spells one at a time via job quests, either as part of an expansion or retroactively. For example, Bio could be morphed into an Ifrit flavoured spell when we learn Titan-egi, miasma would become a Titan themed spell when we get his egi, and a wind based spell could replace Bio II upon getting Garuda-egi.
Tri-disaster would therefore be a tri-elemental/primal attack instead. Miasma II could be changed into a Ramuh style EMP if there is a part of his territory that isn't infused with bahamut aether (I'm thinking just inside ala mhigo, maybe), because HW SMN lore (how far does Bahamut's aether reach across the world anyway?) :/.
The second would be learning different stances or aspects like the Astrogogian Sects. Our base spells would be infused with <insert primal> aether, possibly changing their name/appearance/effect/secondary effect into moves themed after the primal whose aether we are currently aspected to.
The new moves that replace the old wouldn't necessarily have to be DoTs either, they could be direct damage spells that interact with each other in a different way, or have CDs.
I don't pretend to know if it is doable currently from a programming perspective, but if WoW can make Immolate turn into Corruption or Doom based on you spec, or Arcane Shot become Sidewinder via a talent choice, then it should be doable.
Just to reiterate, I am fine with summoner as is, these are just a couple of random ideas I thought I'd share. :) -
05-17-2017, 09:20 AMAugustinesShadowWe all get it. You have your opinion and you don't care about the facts, or that you're arguing against something I'm not even proposing to start with, but I can't help but roll my eyes when you claim that I'm the one disregarding everyone else's opinion when you're the one perpetrating that indignity. That's a textbook case of projection. At this point it's clear you're a selfish child, completely incapable of reading or of comprehension thereby, and you only care about yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverquick
Congratulations, you've made yourself wholly irrelevant. No one wants to engage with someone who has no capacity for interpersonal interaction except maybe a special education teacher who has a heart big enough to pity you in spite of your handicaps (and is getting paid a living wage for doing so).
That certainly doesn't count me. -
05-17-2017, 09:24 AMAugustinesShadow
The best course at this point in my opinion remains that it would the most workable to separate the necromancer/warlock class from the Summoner job title. It doesn't even necessarily have to be called a Necromancer or Warlock. Arcanist certainly doesn't have a precursor in FF lore, so you could conceivably come up with a whole new name - something like "Spirit-Eater" or "Soul Gatherer" or some variation on that theme.
Revamping the existing class isn't feasible or sensible, and you'll obviously have people like Silver who will certainly and reasonably object to it being irrevocably destroyed and replaced.
I am not sold on the idea that the new Summoner should be a pet class at all. In lore it was more of a mage, just with a spell-effect generated via the Summon. There's no reason it should have to be a Black Mage clone either. If anything I would like to see it using stances/combos corresponding to the primals (the how's and what's are open to debate). -
05-17-2017, 09:31 AMSilverquickSays the person who mains WHM....Quote:
Originally Posted by AugustinesShadow
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05-18-2017, 09:35 AMDuelleThe thing is that XI's SMN was balanced around the shit ton of utility it offered. That job could: AoE Blink. AoE Stoneskin. Had heals built in. Could remove status ailments. Deal some damage (they did make you wait until you got the lv70 Blood Pacts, which was a bad move IMO). Became super damage mode every 2 hours. Had access to pretty much every element. Could stun. I'm sure I'm forgetting some more, and all of it without taking subjobs into account.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverquick
Not to say they were justified in how that came out in-game, but XI's SMN had a lot of things that would make it really powerful if not kept under control. XI adding Alexander as a summon basically proved this because groups started bringing SMNs for Perfect Defense in order to cheese bosses (only for the devs to then add some bosses that required Perfect Defense, which made SMN mandatory).
Looking back on the design, XI's SMN would have worked better in a MOBA or "action" MMO like Guild Wars 2. Have each summon serve a "stance" with a slew of abilities with individual cooldowns granted to you depending on what you have summoned. XI's SMN was basically just that but with Blood Pact timers acting as a limiting factor.
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On the topic, there's some things the OP is not taking into account. First, Summoners in prior games largely relied on a secondary school of magic. Rydia had black magic to fall back on. Garnet, Eiko, and Yuna had white magic. Our SMN having DoTs is not much of a stretch if we keep that in mind. Especially since in-world classes and jobs don't share spells like in other FF games. This isn't like XI where there was a school of Black Magic that BLM, RDM, SCH, and DRK could all draw from.
Not to mention that even Necromancer depictions vary. Sure, some are disease-oriented, but others are focused on things like hexes/curses and undead minions with a lot of master/pet connections (the caster having spells to heal their pets, strengthen them, sacrifice them for damage, sacrifice them for power, etc). -
05-18-2017, 10:50 AMShurrikhanI wonder if they even considered that approach before forcing Tanaka's classes into submission/obsoletion. Had each job been an advanced skill path discovered through related skills or magics, and synergizing with them, you could have ended up with Lancer-Paladins (Cecil), Marauder Paladins (that Vault boss?), Conjurer Paladins (Clerics) and so forth... Summoner, especially, would seem a good candidate to comes from any of three schools of magic, either through manipulation of aetherial entropy, underlying essence or spirit of the elements, or through a sort of calculated conversion or transference of magics—regardless of their aligned element, through Thaumaturgy, Conjury, and Arcanistry, respectivelyQuote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
Such wouldn't have been as simple or efficient, and therefore less feasible in the pinch 1.18 was in, but certainly worth some wondering over what might have been. -
05-18-2017, 12:16 PMSilverquickIts true in FFXI there were actual support classes...Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
In this game though that's the SCH side so, its pretty worthless on a SMN since we have to queue as a DPS. And the SCH does have a lot of those abilities, and none of them help a DPS class at all.
But since there's no elemental wheel, its kinda pointless to add pets too. Glamors are about the extent of what can be done with them in this game, since the numbers are the only thing that matters for a DPS job really.
About the only thing worth adding at this point to the SMN is Aetherflow stacks and more of the classic style FF type summons, the way they did Deathflare (Aka Bahamut Teraflare)... other than of course higher level versions of Ruin, Painflare, Fester, etc.
Which is really why the only people outside SMNs that MAIN the job, that can really give an accurate view, are other DPS jobs who understand what basis for the job really is.
Otherwise they'll just screw it up and land us back in the shoes the SMN was in ARR where it was a job no one wanted to play and was just for show. We don't queue as a Support job like SCH.... we queue as a DPS and have to perform like one. -
05-21-2017, 09:11 AMRokkuEkkusuWhat does this quote have to do with what the topic at hand? If you saw Augustine's lodestone profie, he uses Summoner as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverquick
A person can main more than one job. I main several roles on two of my characters.