Still to this day... (the dramatic game-play on BRD last expansion)

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Originally Posted by Cadmus83

FFXIV Community,
I'm very interested in asking 2 questions regarding last years expansion changes to the BRD job:

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I cant stand wm, cant stand it makes me barely even wana play bard, totally sucked the fun out of the job for me cant tell you how many times I thought I was attacking something but didnt let the whole cast go through. Im with most people here bard will prob always be one of my last dps choices because of wm , where as it would of been a first choice if they didnt have it.

Speaking as someone that started playing after HW was released, I don't view WM as that big of a deal, although it did throw me for a loop at first. That said, I do have several issues with it.

1) The game literally ambushes Bards with the skill. There's no indication at all from earlier level skills that Bard is suddenly going to lose most of their mobility.
2) It clashes with several earlier skills, the River of Blood passive especially. I'm sure we don't need to go over why yet again.
3) It's literally a copy-pasted mechanic from Machinist, a job that was designed around the mechanic in the first place. Had this not been the case, I'm sure it'd be received far better.

As it stands, in practical terms, Bard damage pretty much skyrocketed for those that have mastered the usage of WM, to the point where I usually end up being the top DPS wherever I go in Lv. 60 content while still maintaining all of my support options when needed. I'd argue Bards as they are now are actually broken, but you'd pretty much have to have raid-tier skill level to achieve that. That's not practical for a lot of people. Indeed, noticing the way that I play, I don't think those playing on controllers or hand disabilities can play the class at a high efficiency level at all, I have to play the class with a keyboard/mouse hybrid (keyboard inputs for my most used skills on the first bar, mouse inputs for all my skills on the other two bars, having to manually swap bars to keyboard input everything is the kind of thing that could result in massive carpal tunnel playing as Bard if you saw how many abilities I tend to use at any given time).

WM added a massive skill gap to the class, wider than the freaking Grand Canyon, which is the reason why many now consider Bard to have the highest skill ceiling in the game. The class has a ton of buffs and oGCDs to manage, far more than most DPS, along with one of the oGCDs having a RNG reset mechanic, and WM is fairly crippling in that department.

There's a reason why many think running into a good Bard is now a myth these days too.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Why do people keep insisting that they needed cast bars to balance them? Bards were not overpowered in 2.X, the main criticism they got was that they were easier to play than the ranged magic users, at no point though was the meta 1x tank, 2x healer 5x Bards or anything like that.

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More of an issue for PvP, if you could kite for days and deal the same amount of damage as a stationary Black Mage - that would be rather unacceptable. WM gives SE the opportunity to fairly give them similar damage without as much "wtf?" from the BLM.

There is an element of jealousy/imbalance for PvE too, as if they add high movement moments that don't require stack it was clear that Bards were advantaged and Black Mages not. The game has a high element of all about that deeps so I don't think SE not having a tool to fairly control how much output they both have would be good (having Bard do less damage than other DD wouldn't be a good solution), but its a possible solution (BRD not ever being able to do near BLM output but maintaining full mobility for example).

I do believe they can make the sniper stance less caster like and friendly to use though (making the transition more enjoyable and less shocking), and also differentiate the style of Bard and Machinist. I think a tool /like/ WM is better for the job's long term health, but I do believe SE can make it more interesting/friendly ~!

I *despise* it.

Not because I don't know how to use it effectively, but because I want to be able to enjoy the mobility. Perhaps the trade off could be a shorter rage. Machinist feels like it was built for cast timers on certain skills but bard was not.

Im playing bard now since 2.0, I did not change my main and still wont change in stormblood. I do not see the mobility as a failure for this class. I see skills of the bard as a failure. Looking to Machinist; the cast bar works totally fine aslong you can keep some procs and prepare for movement. While I had to get used for the Minuet in beginning of HW, I got more confident with the moving when the cast is about to finish (+0,5s does not cancel casts).

• Looking deeper to the skills, Bloodletter (+Rain of Death) has to be reworked. It is really annoying to see them resetting cause of our dot crits and you cant use a single one cause you are casting and meanwhile its reseting twice even.
• Then AoE rotation; while Machinist and Bard have the same AoE-Type(radius), Machinist deals WAY more damage AoE-wise. While Machinist has Spreadshot (130TP, 100 potency)&Grenado Shot (160TP, 120 potency) + every ammunation giving another +20 potency to any gcd skill + the AoE Turret!! (60 potency, effect with Hypercharge 120), the Bard has his Rain of Death with a 15s CD (100 potency) + Quick Nock & Wide Volley (140&160TP, both 110 potency). Looks unfair to me.
• Also Feint. I have a feeling that this skill was not supposed to be in anyway useful to bard and his rotation. While we profit from it for movement, double ogcd's and weaving Empyreal Arrow, it kills our TP drastically. I would be happy to get rid of this skill in exchange for something else for mobility etc.
• Last but not least, songs. Playing them takes up again 2,50s, which results in dps loss. Many even dont use them, many still think Requiem lowers our dps by 10% like mana/tp song. While Machinist just uses his "joystick" and needs 1 click, the bard has to cast. While I do like the cast animation of songs and would not want them to change it drastically, I would enjoy to see some other animation - like music notes flying around or being as an active&staying buff animation rather than the long cast bar.

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Originally Posted by xbahax92

It is really annoying to see them resetting cause of our dot crits and you cant use a single one cause you are casting and meanwhile its reseting twice even.

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I feel like this is the most annoying thing on bard currently. Sometimes while keeping up rotation/Dots or dealing with the casting bar, bloodletter will refresh itself 2-3 times before you get to use it again and that is a DPS loss. If anything they should be able to "stock" up to like 3 or something so you can use them at your leisure in your rotations.

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

I feel like this is the most annoying thing on bard currently. Sometimes while keeping up rotation/Dots or dealing with the casting bar, bloodletter will refresh itself 2-3 times before you get to use it again and that is a DPS loss. If anything they should be able to "stock" up to like 3 or something so you can use them at your leisure in your rotations.

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Oh that's a nice idea. Reminds me a bit of Sylvanas lol.

Bard to me was a lot more fun without minuet. It's not the cast times that bug me, it's how awkward it makes the job play. The job was never designed for cast times in mind and it shows. Machinist flows so much better because GB was always intended to be a part of it. Minuet was just shoehorned onto Bard to homogenize it with Machinist.

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Originally Posted by Cadmus83

- Is anyone still irritated by the game-play changes to BRD from last expansion? If so (or not), could you explain?

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Yup. Hate it. I enjoy the mobility of pre-HW bard and feel like I did plenty of damage plus brought utility. I dislike that they took a unique-feeling class and made it feel just like a caster.

As for your second question - it's always a concern with games that patch class updates, but it's not something I spend too much time worrying about.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

There is an element of jealousy/imbalance for PvE too, as if they add high movement moments that don't require stack it was clear that Bards were advantaged and Black Mages not.

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I mean, this is just kind of the trade-off between different classes and is pretty standard across lots of games... There is strategy required in PvP. Other players should take responsibility to maintain control of opponents in an effort to keep them away from their stand-still caster teammate... It really didn't require modifying bard to... also be standstill. Why do they NEED to dish out as much damage as black mages? They did plenty and bring utility.

I don't mind WM.

I've played enough games over the years that I'm used to my favorite stuff getting changed in a patch. It happens. You can't expect everyone else to deal with changes but not you. :P

WM itself changes the feel of BRD a lot, but I wouldn't say it's bad. It's different, not worse.

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Originally Posted by Iromi

I dropped bard the second I saw it had a casting bar..I mean I finished leveling it to 60 but didn't like it at all. Archers aren't meant to have a casting bar imo. Hoping they ditch the casting bars in SB so I can play it again ^^

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After playing it at a lvl 60 capacity on PotD, I'm of the same opinion. Such a shame that MCH followed nearly the same route.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

I mean, this is just kind of the trade-off between different classes and is pretty standard across lots of games... There is strategy required in PvP. Other players should take responsibility to maintain control of opponents in an effort to keep them away from their stand-still caster teammate... It really didn't require modifying bard to... also be standstill. Why do they NEED to dish out as much damage as black mages? They did plenty and bring utility.

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It's all about the deeps man, thats why we have those great tank and healer damage threads lol.

I like the idea of some sort of strong slow attack because Ranger and I liked Ranger in FFXI, and Bard definitely gobbled up that idea (like Ninja to Thief). But they could have done like a snipe ability or mechanic that is one spell. Personally believe Bard having WM with greater range and just making the WM more friendly (not cancel on movement, but fire at that bonus %) would be good, and make MCH more mobile but thats just how I "see" them. The rain of lead, vs semi nuke and greatest range of all combat classes. The issue of losing bloodletters is a problem ofc.

It's clear the idea was created for MCH as we have ways to bypass casts, and we're a very oGCD weaving heavy job. Minuet took some getting used to, and both had their deficiencies at first, but those who didn't hate it enough to drop it simply adapted.

I feel like the ability, if not desire to adapt in this game is unfortunately rather low. This isn't me defending every decision or change the devs make, no, but it feels like when faced with an obstacle or something unfavorable, we demand it change for us rather than we change to adapt (at least where it's good to do so.)

I doubt that the stance is going anywhere. My hope is that in stormblood they'll give BRD and MCH a second stance that's like the opposite of the current stance.

Like something that will double their attack speed but increase their tp costs, so they can stance dance like tanks, use the speed stance normally or when they need to move, but when not moving or low on tp, you can switch to minuet/gauss for the extra damage.

I absolutely loathed Bard when 3.0 hit. It was my main job and I tried time and again after the expansion hit to like it. I was one of the ones who begged and pleaded SE to change/remove Wanderer's Minuet and return the job I loved. After I hit 60, I ended up swearing off Bard entirely and I didn't pick it back up again until a few months ago.
The long hiatus somehow changed my perspective and gave me time to forget the 2.0 Bard that I originally loved. Now, I have grown fully accustomed to the casting aspect of 3.0 BRD. In fact, I have even gone back to calling it my main job and it actually feels weird now when I'm in lower level content sans-Wanderer's Minuet and forced to relive the 2.0 days.

Weird how time away can change your perspective.

Although Bard is not my main I do agree that the HW changes to Bard were a terrible mistake. It wasn't a simple change or a tinkering of skills. It was a fundamental change that made Bard feel like a completely different Job. Don't do this again.

I learned to stance dance for PvP and I don't mind it so much. At first, I hated the cast bar. Bard was my first job in ARR until I leveled WAR and switched to tank main. Then bard was my last job to 60, and for dps jobs I typically relied on DRG or SMN.

Over the past few months I've come back to bard and I've actually been enjoying it quite a bit, got it geared up, and may make it my number one dps job for Stormblood when I'm not tanking or healing.

Being forced to stance dance for PvP helped me relearn to play it better overall.

I still hate it. BRD was the most interesting job by far for me because FFXIV has incredibly slow combat. Being able to move around, dodge, and supply benefits to the team was totally for me. The changes in HW absolutely killed the class for me and I won't play it again. I tried to adapt, but at launch of HW it was clear that the entire change was half-assed. The gameplay was clunky and turning Wanderer's Minuet on actually lowered your overall DPS. It has since been fixed to be reasonable in the increase of damage, but the entire class feels like it wasn't designed for it.

So, I switched to the next closest thing with MCH. MCH feels like it was designed for Gauss Barrel. When you get your procs you can freely move while continuing to fire and everything flows in a natural way. I still find the classes in the game boring, but MCH is far closer to what I liked about BRD than BRD is in the current state of the game. It's a shame that the roleplay is the only thing that really holds me here and not the gameplay. I have to play other MMOs for that.

Thanks everyone who responded! I'm very grateful to hear your stories and opinions.

I tip my cap to all those who were able to roll with the changes and even master WM. Unfortunately I was never able get used to the changes but I was pleasantly surprised to find my new loves, SCH and DRG during this expansion. With SB approaching and "battle changes" being mentioned I cannot help but feel a little nervous reflecting on my past experience but being able to have this conversation with you all has been helpful.

Thanks again!

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Originally Posted by xbahax92

[*]Then AoE rotation; while Machinist and Bard have the same AoE-Type(radius), Machinist deals WAY more damage AoE-wise. While Machinist has Spreadshot (130TP, 100 potency)&Grenado Shot (160TP, 120 potency) + every ammunation giving another +20 potency to any gcd skill + the AoE Turret!! (60 potency, effect with Hypercharge 120), the Bard has his Rain of Death with a 15s CD (100 potency) + Quick Nock & Wide Volley (140&160TP, both 110 potency). Looks unfair to me

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I have to correct you here, this is highly conditional. Machinist has immense burst, but Bard has far, FAR better AoE sustain.

The issue with Bard is our set-up time, you have to begin pulls with throwing Windbite on 3 enemies first. Once you do, though, you usually end up with a Rain of Death reset between every Quick Nock cast for the next 12 seconds (210 potency per GCD is no joke at all) before you have to halt and reapply Windbites again if needed. Rain of Death is extremely powerful in the sense that it costs no TP/MP at all, so over time, Bard AoE easily overtakes Machinist, who is practically dead in the water once they run out of TP (and they run out FAR faster than Bard at that). And unlike Bard who can just sing Army's Paeon and keep going with their RoD resets, Machinist has to go through the effort of switching from a Bishop turret back into a Rook to recharge their TP.

Oh, and you also forgot Flaming Arrow. Which is a pretty big thing to forget, it's basically Bard's version of the Bishop autoturret.

Few classes have an answer to just how potentially ridiculous Rain of Death becomes, and people don't realize it because most people probably only run into a Bard that knows how to abuse it like once a month, if at all. Here's a demonstration of one of my dungeon runs from last week.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/140620010

The first half, at least. The second half is just me screwing around as a Scholar. And before anyone asks, it looks like Twitch is acting up right now. :/

(Also, on a side tangent tying in with my previous post in this thread, you get to see just how ridiculous Bard can get at a higher level of mastery, and more importantly, the amount of oGCD management/situational awareness required to produce such results (ESPECIALLY under WM) - to the point where I don't believe anyone can truly 'master' Bard with a controller setup, which would be THE number 1 argument for overhauling/scrapping WM. If you've designed a class where there's an actual skill barrier present based on what platform you're playing on, you've done something majorly wrong.)

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Originally Posted by ErryK

I hope they keep the cast bar. Makes you think about how you're going to use what skill, when and where.

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How exactly does it make you think about what skill to use? There is no situation where I have to think about using my skill. If my DoTs where to fall off, use Iron Jaws, if I have Bloodletter pop it, if Empyreal Arrow is up pop it, if Sidewinder is up make sure DoTs are up and pop it. BRD doesn't have any branching combos, it doesn't have any position based skills either. It's very straightforward and easy to learn but hard to master, and throwing a cast bar on the class just for two skills doesn't translate into direct class growth, again you don't need WM for Sidewinder or Wardens, nor to my knowledge does PvP skills benefit from WM either, in all the matches I've played I've seen even less BRDs use WM then I do DF or PF.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

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It doesn't. I believe what he meant to get at is that it forces you to plan out all your GCD's based around limited movement like BLM. They say that BLM benefits the most from learning a fight, because you can better minimize movement to maximize DPS. Bard has to play a similar way with WM. Mistakes in positioning are far more punishing.

Being a mage main, WM didn't affect me too much, but at the same time it felt too much like a caster that I asked myself "why be a BRD when I can just switch to a BLM or AST?"

While I have gotten used to WM, that doesn't mean I like it. It's still pretty clunky (compared to Gauss Barrell) and it made the BRD playstyle kinda boring. Doing Lv.50 dungeons reminds just how fast-pace BRD was; I was constantly pressing buttons, keeping track of cooldowns and timers.

Kinda ironic how the most mobile job in 2.0 became one of the least mobile job in 3.0.

I think,at level 60,when I play BLM I have more mobility than some Bard though ....

I still do not like WM.

My hand is twitchy on my mouse. I don't know whether it's age-related or just too much computer time. In any case, a slight twitch is enough to cancel casts under WM. A couple of these and all benefits are lost. I prefer the mobility, and I can maintain dps without WM for the content I want to run (no savage content). I've been told that I (non-WM) regularly outperform other bards who are using WM. However, I know that the majority of players don't run savage or ex primals on a regular basis. I'm sure the less common and more practiced, "savage bards" are significantly above my numbers, since I come up a bit short on SSS for the last 2 savage alex dummies without WM.

I like the idea of skill potency being reduced for abbreviated casting versus cancelling the cast altogether. It would reduce the cost of the occasional twitch.

Honestly, the fact that a Bard could do pirouettes and still max out their possible dps needed to be stopped, and it didn't help that a lot of groups would directly blame Bards whenever they couldn't make a dps race (Depending on the number of them in your group, it's a good chance they were right). With WM, I've noticed that this is no longer the case since Bard's can pump out damage like the best of them now, and there's much more room to improve your skill with the class than there was before. It really didn't hurt our identity as a "support damage dealer" either, so the only thing it did was kill all of the players who wanted to play the class because it was easy. I mean honestly, it's kind of a problem when you can play the game with your eyes closed.

I gave up on bard the moment I saw what Wanders Mute did to the job. I used bard as a form of release when I got done healing a stressful raid. The ability to move around and DPS was a joy, they took an extremely fun job and utterly ruined it with the changes. Until they reverse Wanders Mute, the job is dead to me.

I didn't even want to touch BRD after the changes. Only leveling it know because I have nothing else to do and am close to every combat class to 60 again. But I still prefer the older style gameplay for it. It's jarring and baffling they would change it so dramatically, especially given it's 1-50 abilities don't mesh well with cast times. Also leveling MCH at the same time, and you can tell the cast times were only designed with one of them in mind. It just feels like they tacked it on because they wanted it to be easier to balance with MCH.

Hated it at first. Now I'm used to it, actually kinda like it.

Bard is my least favourite caster, but I'm fine with WM now. I just hope they'll unite Venomous and Windbyte into a single dot and remove Iron Jaws, there's no excuse to have two actions which do exactly the same thing and roughly the same damage. Just pointless skill bloating for artificial gameplay 'difficulty'. And should I even start about 3 damage buffs which do exactly the same thing too? Can we have some original skills instead.