Dps que times

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

Key words "Per say" I think you mean "Per Se "... Tanking takes practice and most players now a days really get frustrated. As a Tank , secondary , there is a bit more of a challenge and is even more of a pain when people don't listen. Even when tanks ask politely some DPS don't like to help out by sticking to mechanics,or targets , and rather go their own way. Sad but true. If party wipes they either blame the healer or tank. If Tank over pulls it's their fault. If They don't over pull, it's their fault. So your right. They aren't mentally challenge...( Per Se = Per se is the phrase to use when you want to refer to a particular thing on its own. It is not this Latin phrase, per se, that is important, but rather the concept it represents.)

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That's what make tanking fun at times, flawless runs are boring. Also is someone is blaming me when It's not my fault I will argue back, people need to grow a spine at times.

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Originally Posted by Driavna

That's what make tanking fun at times, flawless runs are boring. Also is someone is blaming me when It's not my fault I will argue back, people need to grow a spine at times.

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After relics for all tanks jobs including (most DPS as well) including Zodiac , it becomes really stress full and makes you question common sense and your sanity...every now and then I can handle, point out, teach...I actually mentor and have a lot of patience.

Funny topic. I have multiple characters on different data centers and let me tell you, playing for example on aether from time to time, that would be a reason to open a topic like that. Dps queue times 30+ minutes, some content doesn't pop at all, because they have nothing but dps on that data center.

Primal on the other hand, dps queue time is from insta all the way to 10 minutes. I yet have to find any content that takes much longer queue then that, because primal has nothing but tanks and healers. Dps most of the times in demand, most early nights/mornings even the roulette's are looking for dps (i know some people haven't seen that bonus since 2.x, but it still exists lol)

So yea I am sorry that you have to wait a couple of minutes before your dps queue pops on Excalibur, could always just level via potd or go with friends, but keep in mind that it could be much worse, depending on the data center, you're currently playing on lol.

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Originally Posted by Astrus

So a tank and 3 DPS keeping themselves alive? Or a healer and 3 DPS with one of the DPS tanking?
I don't really see this working out for Light Party content, which is likely going to be the majority of "problematic" queues given that there's going to be two shiny new DPS classes to level through the SB story before people get to the Full Party content.

For Full Parties this might work but then I already see PF groups taking an additional DPS for content that can be healed or tanked solo so the only thing this would really effect is DF matchmaking.

Unless we see our parties getting expanded I think it highly unlikely they'd change the matchmaking.

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lol wut....

Maybe it's 'cause I'm a WoW-refugee, but 15 mins (on my server) isn't so bad. I can usually find something productive to keep me occupied until the queue pops.

Compared to WoW's 30-45min DPS queues... and they DO have 5-man parties...

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Originally Posted by Coratanni

This is like someone getting a college degree in something that isnt in high demand, then complaining when it takes a long time to find a job for their field or they have to move across the country when they would rather stay close to home.

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This is a game not real life. People play games to have fun not make money (usually), and what people like to play is often arbitrary, not necessarily efficient.

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Originally Posted by Venjenz

If you don't like DPS queue times, then play a tank or a healer. And if you won't be a tank or healer, ask yourself why not.

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Imagery of classes is important for a lot of people. If you're strictly goal-oriented then this makes no sense to you. Tanks are narrowly defined in this game as heavily armored warriors/knights; healers also have certain connotations. If those don't appeal to you, no sugar coating or rewards are going to make you like it.

Also DPS jobs have a lot more variety in their rotations.

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Originally Posted by Atlaworks

And that's gonna balance out after the initial rush anyway- people are always gonna play the role they like.

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I think too many people forget about this part. Sure, it's true that when SB first releases, we're going to have a ton of Samurai and Red Mages around, and DPS queues will be longer for a while as a result. But once the "new shiny thing" effect wears off, they're just going to be two of the fifteen jobs in the game, and the majority of the players who move to using those as their main are likely to be switching from another DPS job anyway.

So, as a temporary effect, yes, DPS queues will be longer. But long-term, I don't see it changing much. And SE needs to design and balance the content for the long term, not for the temporary effect.

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Originally Posted by bonez

.... and make it easier to carry low dps players.

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I don't carry low DPS players

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Originally Posted by Bahd_Monkey

I don't carry low DPS players

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Unless you avoid duty finder completely or are not very good yourself then at some point you are going to carry a low dps through something.

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Originally Posted by Rita1989

Unless you avoid duty finder completely or are not very good yourself then at some point you are going to carry a low dps through something.

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Nah, just kick them. B)

DPS slots should flex from 2 to 4 based on timers for DPS in the normal duty finder dungeons. Then scale the HP of mobs to match.

Reason for the disparity is you don't need as many tanks or healers in endgame as you need DPS. If you look at all the recruiting statics they need DPS and already have their tanks and healers. So players are going from tanks/healers to DPS to compensate.

I know when I queue up for DS with my tank friend, its always DPS we're waiting for.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

DPS slots should flex from 2 to 4 based on timers for DPS in the normal duty finder dungeons. Then scale the HP of mobs to match.

Reason for the disparity is you don't need as many tanks or healers in endgame as you need DPS. If you look at all the recruiting statics they need DPS and already have their tanks and healers. So players are going from tanks/healers to DPS to compensate.

I know when I queue up for DS with my tank friend, its always DPS we're waiting for.

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That, I think, has actually the same root reason for why we have too many dps in other queues. We have already established that many people play dps because they don't want the extra stress that comes with being a healer or tank. Those who play tank or heal are the people who either like the roles, often for the challenge and responsiblity, or are at least ready to go the extra mile to play the needed roles. these are the players who are also interested about endgame. The dps players (or vast majority of them, it seems) pick the role because it's perceived as easy and low responsibility. These people are not interested about the higher content, such as ex primals or savages.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

DPS slots should flex from 2 to 4 based on timers for DPS in the normal duty finder dungeons. Then scale the HP of mobs to match.

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It's not as simple as just scaling the HP of Mobs, Boss fights need to be balanced properly since if you double the number of DPS you won't just be skipping a phase, you could be skipping multiple phases in a single leap. Allowing this kind of dynamic scaling from 2 to 4 DPS in a light party would be utterly unworkable with the combat system and content that already exists (including SB content). No offense, but this is a completely unrealistic suggestion.

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Originally Posted by demonette

Imagery of classes is important for a lot of people. If you're strictly goal-oriented then this makes no sense to you. Tanks are narrowly defined in this game as heavily armored warriors/knights; healers also have certain connotations. If those don't appeal to you, no sugar coating or rewards are going to make you like it.

Also DPS jobs have a lot more variety in their rotations.

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If queue times for DPS are a bother, either don't queue or do something other than DPS. The long queue time is the emergent motivating tool to get people into the two roles that are less popular.

Every class based MMO has close to the same breakdown of players. 20% tank, 20% heal, 60% DPS. +/- 5% max, that's what you'll see in any trinity centric MMO. And of those populations, I'd wager that healers and tanks have more people who got coerced/forced into the job based on FC/friend needs moreso than actual desire, based on what you say about the job itself. And for all the content that requires/encourages soloing...all that is easier (mostly) with DPS than a tank or healer, which again is common to all class based MMOs. Add in the community treatment of tanks and healers, and yeah, DPS have a much larger population waiting in much longer lines.

But there's no development way around that if your game has a trinity based core. DPS is more fun, more casual, and has way fewer group headaches. I am not saying DPS does nothing, but they do not take the same level of heat tanks and healers do, which makes sense because as other have said, DPS mistakes and poor play are so much harder to notice. The soloing being easier is just an added bonus. It all boils down to DPS having long queue times and that's that.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

It's not as simple as just scaling the HP of Mobs, Boss fights need to be balanced properly since if you double the number of DPS you won't just be skipping a phase, you could be skipping multiple phases in a single leap. Allowing this kind of dynamic scaling from 2 to 4 DPS in a light party would be utterly unworkable with the combat system and content that already exists (including SB content). No offense, but this is a completely unrealistic suggestion.

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I don't believe this will be a problem. I've been able to complete 100% of DF 4-man content in both ARR and HW. I don't believe it was designed with failure in mind. And I have no reason to believe SB will be any different. That's assuming what you say comes to pass. We're not talking about Trials, Extremes, Alliance, or Savage here. The content is already trivial, meant to be trivial, but is meant to be a stepping stone into harder content if the player wishes to so progress.

I've seen flexing work in other games. And in the worst case scenario, more people sometimes lent to the content being harder sometimes. So your fears are simply unwarranted.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

I don't believe this will be a problem. I've been able to complete 100% of DF 4-man content in both ARR and HW. I don't believe it was designed with failure in mind.
**snip**
I've seen flexing work in other games. And in the worst case scenario, more people sometimes lent to the content being harder sometimes. So your fears are simply unwarranted.

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Be that as it may, you are not the one balancing the content. To dismiss the issue out of have based on what you've see in other games strikes me as arrogant.

SE balances the content as they do. It's currently balanced around a 1-1-2 ratio in light party content, changing that to scale properly to 1-1-4 is a major change. Saying otherwise is being willfully ignorant, in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Be that as it may, you are not the one balancing the content. To dismiss the issue out of have based on what you've see in other games strikes me as arrogant.

SE balances the content as they do. It's currently balanced around a 1-1-2 ratio in light party content, changing that to scale properly to 1-1-4 is a major change. Saying otherwise is being willfully ignorant, in my opinion.

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I mean...they could just balance content around that going forward after Stormblood. The MMO That Will Not Be Named does this already with some raid content (granted, not at the hardest level). I'm sure it's not easy, but I'd hardly call it unrealistic. At the same time, I don't really find it necessary for 4-man content. I wouldn't be opposed to dungeons released in 5.0 and on having 1-1-3 instead of 1-1-2, but scaling based on the number of players would be best reserved for 24-mans or 8-mans.

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Originally Posted by Edewen

Because queue times aren't a problem in other games that have 5 man groups?

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Agreed.

DPS queue times are even worse in WoW than here, and WoW has 5-person dungeons, 10+ person raids (you can have 10-40 people in a raid, of any composition you desire, and this STILL doesn't help DPS queue times).

The only solution is to go the Guild Wars 2 route - and remove tanks and healers... but then you risk going the Guild Wars 2 route, and having Dungeons where no matter what the mechanic, it has to be beatable by people with no armor who need no healing... so everything can be 'cheesed' by people bringing speed-DPS and doing the exact same mechanic on every boss and trash pack in the game (In GW2, almost every non-raid fight can be beaten by stacking all in one spot in a corner and doing a 'line of sight' pull so the mobs all stack on the same spot as you... and then you just spam your highest DPS buttons and ignore all mechanics or other actions). This is why Guild Wars 2 laid off their entire Dungeon Design team a few years back... and put tanks and healers back into the game when they added raiding...

DPS queue times will just be slow in MMOs... unless someone figures out how to do a combat engine without tanks or healers that is actually fun...

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Be that as it may, you are not the one balancing the content. To dismiss the issue out of have based on what you've see in other games strikes me as arrogant.

SE balances the content as they do. It's currently balanced around a 1-1-2 ratio in light party content, changing that to scale properly to 1-1-4 is a major change. Saying otherwise is being willfully ignorant, in my opinion.

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Its simple math. Tank and Healer are constant. They're damage doesn't change.

Two DPS is equal to Two DPS. Having four DPS is four DPS.

If you have Four DPS, a tank and a Healer. You double the mob's HP. But only have 50% more players. That means normally, the mob would take 1/3rd the time EXTRA to kill. But that third is mitigated by buffs and debuffs floating around.

So I don't see how this makes things easier. Also calling something ignorant and arrogant is a borderline personal attack, that's the only warning you'll get on that subject and only because it was borderline.

Hmmmm... lemme think ab- no!

Interesting point. Buttt I am happy with the 1/1/2 ratio.

Brings up a question though. Why don't 14 players want to play tank or healer classes? They have shorter queue times and they get bonus rewards. It's almost less optimal to play dps in a way, yet most people still only play dps.

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Originally Posted by Hitsuzen

Brings up a question though. Why don't 14 players want to play tank or healer classes? They have shorter queue times and they get bonus rewards. It's almost less optimal to play dps in a way, yet most people still only play dps.

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Because not everyone likes to play every role for varying reasons.

I have a friend who exclusively plays tanks and nothing else. They like being important and setting the pace for the runs they're leading.
I almost never play tanks because running in front and leading the way is not my thing.
Another friend gravitates to healers because as a healer every fight is slightly different even if you've done the encounter a hundred times already.
In other games I too almost always play healers but in FFXIV they just feel uncomfortable to me. Which is a problem they share with casters in this game, something about them just feels wrong to me. So this is the one game where I main melee DPS.
One of the Bards I played with before HW exclusively played Bard because of the range and mobility giving her an edge at dodging out of bad while keeping up dps. Or counteract her slow reaction times more likely.

Additional incentives to tank or heal like shorter queues or bonus rewards can help bribe people into the roles but for others the "hassle" of playing a role they don't enjoy will outweight the incentives.

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Originally Posted by Hitsuzen

Why don't 14 players want to play tank or healer classes?

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Why don't 14 players play WoW or Wildstar instead?

Because they don't like it for one reason or the other >.>
It's not rocket science.

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Originally Posted by Hitsuzen

Brings up a question though. Why don't 14 players want to play tank or healer classes? They have shorter queue times and they get bonus rewards. It's almost less optimal to play dps in a way, yet most people still only play dps.

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Let me ask you this. Lets say you play a healer. And you get 260 geared and get your relic or kinna weapon. What then?

You're done. Unless you get lucky and there's a Savage/Extreme slot open for you. Otherwise you end up rerolling DPS because that's what is needed at that level of play. You could start your own, and look for DPS. And try to compete with others who are also recruiting for DPS.

THAT is why you don't see many Healers and Tanks leveling up. Because lets face it. Healing and Tanking is the easiest thing to do. You said it. You get bonuses you get shorter queues. Its great right? Yeah until you're done with 4 man stuff and need to do higher. Or.. maybe you don't. Maybe thats as far as you want to go.

But... you're done on the healer in this example. So.. you could do Tank or another healer. But theres many more DPS classes. And DPS classes are much different than healing where you small heal spam until you proc or need a bigger one and occasionally do a group heal (lets face it, that's all 4 man stuff requires). And tanking is literally 123 with a some ranged attack pulling and some aoe threat things put in. You have defensive cooldowns, but we all know those aren't really needed, even in expert dungeons.

So.. many (like me) who do Heal or Tank, would like to play something different on occassion. And some even want to go a bit further and do more than just 4 man stuff.

And that is what I base my flex idea on. There is NO shortage of Healers or Tanks in the 24 man queues. Check it for yourself. You're waiting on DPS as you need 15 of them and only 6 healers and 3 tanks.

We don't need incentives to get people to play tanks or healers. We have 3 tanks, 3 healers, and 7 (soon to be 9) DPS. We need to just allow people to play what they want to play. Flexing the queues even if its just the leveling queue (I personally have 5 minute queues on expert with DPS) would help with that. And it hurts no one.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

Let me ask you this. Lets say you play a healer. And you get 260 geared and get your relic or kinna weapon. What then?

You're done. Unless you get lucky and there's a Savage/Extreme slot open for you. Otherwise you end up rerolling DPS because that's what is needed at that level of play. You could start your own, and look for DPS. And try to compete with others who are also recruiting for DPS.

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Last time I checked, people were still doing EX-primals and Savage with tanks and heals in the party...? And people are also looking for tanks and heals for their raidgroups? Its not as if they'd become completly useless once you reach endgame-content.
(Sidenote: If people are looking for DPS for their statics, they're often looking for very specific dps aswell - caster, ranged, melee. So even if it might seem as if there would be more DPS-slots open, in essence those are also only filled by two or three classes)

So, no, I really disagree with your statment that people dont level up tanks and heals because they cant use them in endgame-content. Thats nonsense - not only because you still need them, but also because the actual raiding-community is pretty small - 10% of the playerbase might be actually into serious raiding (I havent checked that number again but it seems to stay the same). That leaves 90% not be effected by your theory.

Someone who mains a tank or healer will most likely agree with you that those are pretty easy jobs - I main paladin and I often feel as if I have the easiest job on the field. If I switch to my scholar to heal some EX-primal/raid I have never healed before, that quickly changes and it feels like proper hardwork - because I'm not used to it. If you say "tanking and healing is the easiest part of the game" you're biased because you're used to those classes.

The reality is simply: Healers and tanks have more responsibility and thats already noticeable in 4 man dungeons.
A lot of people consider tanking stressful - keeping aggro on everything, pulling properly, setting the pace of the run and taking on the leader-role isnt for everyone.
Same goes for healing - with tanks who are speedrunning, healing can get quite stressful aswell (specially in leveling dungeons!)
(I'm also under the impression that a lot of people are pretty fixated on seeing high damage-numbers - something thats easier to achieve witha Fire IV than a Stone III)

I also dont understand your last point - everyone is allowed to play what they want? You can change your class anytime outside a dungeon and play something else?

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Originally Posted by Vidu

Last time I checked, people were still doing EX-primals and Savage with tanks and heals in the party...?

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Absolutely. They've already got them. That's where you misunderstood the point. Most statics are recruiting DPS because they've already got their tank and healer roles filled.