I might of figured something out today. Game too easy for leveling duties?

You could only do this if you removed dungeons from the MSQ. This game has a large casual playerbase. The optional dungeons can have challenge, but not the MSQ. And I think everyone in this thread is forgetting that one of the Expert dungeons is an MSQ dungeon (Baelsar's Wall). There is nothing that will kill your desire to play more than finding yourself at a brick wall because you can't get through a dungeon. Keeper of the Lake when it first came out nearly made my husband give up on the game entirely. I have slowly been luring him back. All making the MSQ dungeons harder is going to do is drive away a large portion of the playerbase. Then, it will either become a niche game like good old EverQuest, or die.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

The optional dungeons can have challenge, but not the MSQ.

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I think Steps of Faith gave SE enough information that the MSQ duties should be "easy". Therefore I don't think we have to worry about MSQ getting to hard for newcomers anytime soon :)

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

You could only do this if you removed dungeons from the MSQ. This game has a large casual playerbase. The optional dungeons can have challenge, but not the MSQ. And I think everyone in this thread is forgetting that one of the Expert dungeons is an MSQ dungeon (Baelsar's Wall). There is nothing that will kill your desire to play more than finding yourself at a brick wall because you can't get through a dungeon. Keeper of the Lake when it first came out nearly made my husband give up on the game entirely. I have slowly been luring him back. All making the MSQ dungeons harder is going to do is drive away a large portion of the playerbase. Then, it will either become a niche game like good old EverQuest, or die.

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Problem is, this has led to dungeons being trivial. Many people neither gear nor learn a proper rotation because the game never incentivizes it. Xelphatol and Gubal were such a joke at release, you could speed run both in lore gear. The only pull that proved a little challenging below a certain threshold was the last one before the owl boss. No offense to your husband, but I feel Expert dungeons should be reasonably challenging at release and gradually become easier as our ilvl advances. These are things intended to last throughout a patch cycle yet I only get to feel like an actual tank/healer if I/the tank pulls the entire room. Baby pulls? I don't even keep to pull in tank stance/heal, period. Such is why dungeons, in my opinion, ought to have a tier system. Leveling should always be the most inviting while Expert demand more without going to any extremes. Once the next patch launches, those old dungeons are now decidedly easier and the cycle repeats. If this means removing them from the MSQ, go right ahead.

Or don't put MSQ dungeons in Expert. So then everyone can run Sohm Al HM to their heart's content and they won't have to worry about having trivial MSQ dungeons muddying their roulettes.

Hmmm I can support having 2 outside dungeons being harder and not linked to MSQ, this will allow it to feel like "expert" then?

Also any comment on my last post on the idea of people may quit if things are too easy and get board?

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Originally Posted by Silica-chan

I think Steps of Faith gave SE enough information that the MSQ duties should be "easy". Therefore I don't think we have to worry about MSQ getting to hard for newcomers anytime soon :)

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The issue is that this trickles down into each patch's story expert dungeon, resulting in Netflix mode. And because it's the story required dungeon, roulette is weighted towards it. Derpytower being the worst offender with Xelph a close second.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Problem is, this has led to dungeons being trivial. Many people neither gear nor learn a proper rotation because the game never incentivizes it. Xelphatol and Gubal were such a joke at release, you could speed run both in lore gear. The only pull that proved a little challenging below a certain threshold was the last one before the owl boss. No offense to your husband, but I feel Expert dungeons should be reasonably challenging at release and gradually become easier as our ilvl advances. These are things intended to last throughout a patch cycle yet I only get to feel like an actual tank/healer if I/the tank pulls the entire room. Baby pulls? I don't even keep to pull in tank stance/heal, period. Such is why dungeons, in my opinion, ought to have a tier system. Leveling should always be the most inviting while Expert demand more without going to any extremes. Once the next patch launches, those old dungeons are now decidedly easier and the cycle repeats. If this means removing them from the MSQ, go right ahead.

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The way the game is designed, the part I bolded is actually very hard to pull off. The dungeons are reasonably hard at the minimum item level, but people are generally well above that minimum by the time the dungeon debuts. They could raise the minimum, but it's already pretty time consuming getting to that minimum for a new player, especially since they can't run Expert roulettes. If they instead just make dungeons harder, they will be far too hard at minimum item level, particularly for the new players who are likely to be at it. The solution probably lies in lowering the relative power of tomestone gear and slowing the overall power progression, but do we really even want that?

As for leveling being the most inviting, how do you propose to achieve that? Those dungeons are no easier or harder than any other, at the minimum item level. The difference is, they are capped much closer to that minimum. Do you just want all leveling dungeons to be trivially easy? I'd actually argue most of them already are pretty easy, and the "difficulty" comes mostly from people forgetting that they're not at the level cap and have to actually play their job to succeed. Making them easier will just make that worse. My last few leveling dungeons have featured every single other person going AFK for minutes at a time without saying anything, let's not encourage that any more than it is already.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Or don't put MSQ dungeons in Expert. So then everyone can run Sohm Al HM to their heart's content and they won't have to worry about having trivial MSQ dungeons muddying their roulettes.

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

Hmmm I can support having 2 outside dungeons being harder and not linked to MSQ, this will allow it to feel like "expert" then?

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It's pretty clear we're getting two dungeons per patch. If one of those is in the MSQ, then we'd end up with an Expert roulette of one dungeon. Plus, they want to make sure the MSQ dungeon has short queues, and Expert roulette is (presumably) the best place to put it to ensure that. Also, the situation was the same in 2.0 which didn't have any MSQ dungeons until late in the patch cycle. I don't think the dungeons being in the MSQ is why they are the difficulty they are, it's just a good reason not to change that.

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Also any comment on my last post on the idea of people may quit if things are too easy and get board?

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On balance, it makes more sense to let good players get bored and quit than to let mediocre players get frustrated and quit. There are two reasons for this: first, the good players already like the game and might come back at some point, while the mediocre players are liable to quit before they get into the game in the first place. Second, there are more mediocre players than good ones. While it's not fantastic for those of us who actually care about being competent players, the developers are clearly incentivized to appeal to the majority.

Another pointless battle in a wholly futile war.

SE need to do a better job of A) Educating the player base and B) having pre/early endgame content that forces them to pay attention.

I would genuinely love to see a typical current day expert roulette pug try to get through Amdapor Keep in launch day gear. To say it would be a shock to them would be the understatement of the year.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

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I can't relate, and it's puzzling.

When I've come across games in the past that were too hard for me, I never said "Oh, I should quit." I practiced and got better. Why would you give up at the first sign of challenge?

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Originally Posted by Silica-chan

I think Steps of Faith gave SE enough information that the MSQ duties should be "easy". Therefore I don't think we have to worry about MSQ getting to hard for newcomers anytime soon :)

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Steps wasn't 'hard' in the traditional sense of the word tho, it just relied on gimmick one off mechanics that were poorly explained as usual.

Titan HM in early ARR is a better example of core content that was legitimately hard. Too much so? I don't think it was but plenty disagreed.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

I can't relate, and it's puzzling.

When I've come across games in the past that were too hard for me, I never said "Oh, I should quit." I practiced and got better. Why would you give up at the first sign of challenge?

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I agree it confuses me too

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

I can't relate, and it's puzzling.

When I've come across games in the past that were too hard for me, I never said "Oh, I should quit." I practiced and got better. Why would you give up at the first sign of challenge?

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Two reasons. One, not everyone is like you. Some people aren't looking for challenge. Second, it depends on how you perceive the challenge. If you think you're failing because you're not good enough, that's one thing, but if you think you're failing due to circumstances beyond your control, that's quite another. If you get in a party and you suck and everyone tells you that you suck and you get kicked or the party disbands, you might just conclude that not only is the game too hard, but the community sucks. Why would you keep playing? I think most of the time people are actually pretty good about new players in this game, but it only takes one bad apple to potentially ruin it for them. Especially if you're playing a tank.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

Two reasons. One, not everyone is like you. Some people aren't looking for challenge. Second, it depends on how you perceive the challenge. If you think you're failing because you're not good enough, that's one thing, but if you think you're failing due to circumstances beyond your control, that's quite another. If you get in a party and you suck and everyone tells you that you suck and you get kicked or the party disbands, you might just conclude that not only is the game too hard, but the community sucks. Why would you keep playing? I think most of the time people are actually pretty good about new players in this game, but it only takes one bad apple to potentially ruin it for them. Especially if you're playing a tank.

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I remember getting told that I sucked in my early days of online gaming. All it did was make me realize I sucked, not make me hate the people who told me that.

I can't get upset at somebody for just giving me the harsh truth.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Steps wasn't 'hard' in the traditional sense of the word tho, it just relied on gimmick one off mechanics that were poorly explained as usual.

Titan HM in early ARR is a better example of core content that was legitimately hard. Too much so? I don't think it was but plenty disagreed.

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The NPCs told you wait to do, it gets put all over the screen lol. People just dont read or try.

The game is too easy (outside EX and Savage), so people don't learn a single thing while playing it. The only people who do are the self-motivated ones who want to improve themselves. Everyone else can clear dungeons without knowing rotations, never AoEing a trash pack, never using their AST cards, never popping tank cooldowns, etc. And even on most of the bosses, they can just ignore mechanics because they're rarely fatal and the healer will just heal them anyway.

Or, the more common trend is, ignore mechanics and just DPS the boss because there's no punishment for ignoring mechanics. Know what that makes a boss? A training dummy. You just DPS it and ignore everything else. And there's no tight timing check on DPS or anything like that. So it's a regular training dummy with no feedback, not a Stone, Sky, Sea dummy which gives you a failing grade.

That's why people are so bad. They never get punished for playing poorly, and they clear content anyway.

Tl;Dr, but for the Aery's first boss, the healer can pop sprint before the tethers go out and take it from the target and bring it to the towers themselves.