Dam. meter

Just do what B&S does and put it in raid/extreme content only where it would be required simple as. I guess SE is just protecting their players from seeing the truth of how they perform.

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Originally Posted by Remus

Just do what B&S does and put it in raid/extreme content only where it would be required simple as. I guess SE is just protecting their players from seeing the truth of how they perform.

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Wuh......!!!



You guys really like to reach...

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

Less features is a good thing? I shouldn't be too surprised, I guess. This is the same community that I have seen kick players for playing too well in a dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

3rd party parser is capable of giving call outs already.
Call outs to mechanics, players skills like (Trick attack, Hypercharge, Warrior Pacification..)
It can even call out players names if they have a certain buff/debuff. I don't think you need more than that.

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More like the community that likes to rely on their own skill rather than 3rd party tools.
Never used those kind of triggers beofre and it quite honestly simply disgusts me when people do. Yes, I find it disgusting.
If you're not capable of doing the content without assistance, then maybe it's not the content you should be doing.

The only 'tool' i would approve of is a 'damage meter', which i'm indifferent about whether there is an official built-in damage meter or not.
It would have upsides and allow people to see their performance in numbers, which would help a lot of people push themselves harder.
But at the same time you have to consider that there are people that just can't play as well, whether it be children, old people, people with disabilties or simply not as capable.
I feel like an ingame parser would make certain aspects of the game quite unpleasant for them, always having the game shove it into their face that they're not as good as others.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Training dummys and the battle log can tell you what you need to know.

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DPSing a dummy is completely different than DPSing a boss especially now that most jobs have more important self buffs such as Enochian.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I don't really play DPS jobs and definitely don't raid with them, so I know it is difficult for me to relate to the numbers obsession. I still care about causing as much damage as possible when doing DPS of any kind, and I know that if I am well-geared and optimizing rotations, I am meeting my own DPS requirements for the instance. If I looked at parser results afterwards, it would only confirm what I already know.

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It's not a "number obsession", if clearing content relies on you dealing appropriate DPS then you'll want to be able to track your group's performance. It also helps you fine tune your buffs and rotation to match the boss' mechanics and adds.

i want to see the savage/ex primals content are locked by stone sky sea dummys before you can even queue or enter it you have to beat the dummy test first! :p

even this dosent mean he could handle mechanics while dpsing.

regards hobbit

I would rather not go back to the days of WoW where people spam the addon "recount" in chat to call out under performers or to flaunt their e-peen.

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Originally Posted by SmallHobbit

i want to see the savage/ex primals content are locked by stone sky sea dummys before you can even queue or enter it you have to beat the dummy test first! :p

even this dosent mean he could handle mechanics while dpsing.

regards hobbit

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Beating the dummy should not be required. Average item level for A11S and A12S is il255. But people still downed them with il250 becuase some jobs can buff the overall raid dps A LOT.

we need a dps meter so bad its ridiculous that we dont have one guess thats the same reason why you cant talk in the feast

Don't need it, Don't want it. To Toxic.

No parsers please, I already got harassed by another player in sophia ex bird farm party, this WHM was looking at my moveset, calling out my dps numbers to everyone in the party. I was very embarrassed and very upset because I didn't ask for my numbers, Noone seemed to complain except that parser, even though I completed it fine. I would not like Noone to feel what I went though, parsing will be used for abuse.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

Beating the dummy should not be required. Average item level for A11S and A12S is il255. But people still downed them with il250 becuase some jobs can buff the overall raid dps A LOT.

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the ppl who downed a11s/a12s with ilvl 250 also dosent have any problems to beat the a12s dummy with ilvl 250 gear.
i down the a12s dummy myself with full crafted ilvl 250 gear without any problems.
and YES we need a parser and we want it!

regards hobbit

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

No parsers please, I already got harassed by another player in sophia ex bird farm party, this WHM was looking at my moveset, calling out my dps numbers to everyone in the party. I was very embarrassed and very upset because I didn't ask for my numbers, Noone seemed to complain except that parser, even though I completed it fine. I would not like Noone to feel what I went though, parsing will be used for abuse.

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Dps meter or not people will harass, but having a meter should spark within you as a player to do better. I think a personal meter if anyth9ng should be an option like I would like to know if im being a burden on the team in reality when Im thinkin Im just doing so well. A meter want lie , a player can lie to themselves about their dps but having a check there I believe would improve overall performance.

I have to disagree with you greatly on that personal meter, people will find ways to abuse that. we already have Stone, sea ,sky for that.

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

I have to disagree with you greatly on that personal meter, people will find ways to abuse that. we already have Stone, sea ,sky for that.

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Stone sky is nothing tho I mean literally doesnt account for anything its just a dummy that stands there , death and mechanics effect dps. If Im melee like dragoon doesnt account for me having to move out of an aoe and lose botd thus lose some dps. Doesnt account for all the moving a blm has to do , as a tank I can stay in sword oath or darkside the whole time without having to switch back. I dont know no why people keep referring to this thing its just a glorified striking dummy with a health bar nothing more.

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Originally Posted by Natashio

Wuh......!!!



You guys really like to reach...

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Take a look at the responses in this thread against parsers, though. People don't want to be called out for underperforming, and that's the toxicity they are referring to.

I get it. No-one likes to be told that they're doing bad. But, it is important to know if you are bringing the group down.

In many games, it's obvious when you're the weak link. DPS in an MMO is not one of those. It's very unclear how much you are contributing to group damage.

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

I have to disagree with you greatly on that personal meter, people will find ways to abuse that.

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There's no evidence of this. NONE.

Before I came back to FFXIV I was playing WoW for Legion, and then ESO right before FFXIV. Both games had fully functioning LUA damage meters and parsers. No one was 'abusing' anyone. Even in WoW's big scary population, no one was harassing anyone. The only time I saw parses linked was within a raiding guild I was apart of. In ESO parses were never linked.

There's all this heresay about how people get rimmed for low DPS when meters are available. This is a lie. By spreading such misinformation YOU are being the abuser.

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

No parsers please, I already got harassed by another player in sophia ex bird farm party, this WHM was looking at my moveset, calling out my dps numbers to everyone in the party. I was very embarrassed and very upset because I didn't ask for my numbers, Noone seemed to complain except that parser, even though I completed it fine. I would not like Noone to feel what I went though, parsing will be used for abuse.

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Wouldn't this be motivation to improve?

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Originally Posted by Canadane

Wouldn't this be motivation to improve?

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If it was offered up politely and in a constructive way? Probably. But it sounds like the parser was used to number shame and bully them. I really hope they reported that person, because that is the very reason Yoshi-P has stated why we won't get parsers. Cause more people will use it to number shame people rather then offer actual advice and constructive criticism.

I will have to say no to a parser people will find ways to abuse it and bully other people.

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Originally Posted by CuteWhisper

I will have to say no to a parser people will find ways to abuse it and bully other people.

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Saying no to people who would use it legitly is abuse and bullying.

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Originally Posted by StarRosie

If it was offered up politely and in a constructive way? Probably. But it sounds like the parser was used to number shame and bully them. I really hope they reported that person, because that is the very reason Yoshi-P has stated why we won't get parsers. Cause more people will use it to number shame people rather then offer actual advice and constructive criticism.

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I agree, but do keep context in mind. If someone is in Haukke Manor, playing badly is expected.

If you join an Extreme Primal Farm party (which this example was) and put out bad numbers... You're beyond the point of being new and needing some help. You have willingly gone into content where you know it is expected that you perform at a high level, and you are not being a team player.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

I agree, but do keep context in mind. If someone is in Haukke Manor, playing badly is expected.

If you join an Extreme Primal Farm party and put out bad numbers... You're beyond the point of being new and needing some help. You have willingly gone into content where you know it is expected that you perform at a high level, and you are not being a team player.

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While I agree to a point, I still stand by my point, that if you are gonna bring people's parser numbers up, do so politely, in a way that is actually helpful. Not to shame them. Joining an EX primal does not give people the right to harass, bully, and abuse other players over their numbers. And personally so far (Calm down, I am not saying that my experience represents all of the pro-parser camp or all who use parsers. Just giving perspective.) I've seen far more people use a parser to number shame, bully, and harass people. So I can wholly see where Yoshi comes from on that respect.

I am sure some use parsers to help inform people where to improve and good on them for that. But overall, I can't get behind the idea of parsers, but that's me and my opinions. It's a difficult thing to balance out, do we introduce a parser for the handful of people who would use it to actually help people and risk the horde of people who will use it to be a troll? Or do we just not introduce it? Again, these thoughts are colored by my experiences and I'm sure for some its different.

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Originally Posted by StarRosie

While I agree to a point, I still stand by my point, that if you are gonna bring people's parser numbers up, do so politely, in a way that is actually helpful. Not to shame them. Joining an EX primal does not give people the right to harass, bully, and abuse other players over their numbers. And personally so far (Calm down, I am not saying that my experience represents all of the pro-parser camp or all who use parsers. Justgiving perspective.) I've seen far more people use a parser to number shame, bully, and harass people. So I can wholly see where Yoshi comes from on that respect.

I am sure some use parsers to help inform people where to improve and good on them for that. But overall, I can't get behind the idea of parsers, but that's me and my opinions. It's a difficult thing to balance out, do we introduce a parser for the handful of people who would use it to actually help people and risk the horde of people who will use it to be a troll? Or do we just not introduce it? Again, these thoughts are colored by my experiences and I'm sure for some its different.

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This, and I am sure helpful people can tell without prasers anyway, so it is not needed. Today is a good example, a level 60 roulette in ARF. My friend noticed right away this BLM needed some advice in rotations. So after trying to bring it up lightly and seeing they are accepting to advice (not defensive in a toxic way) she gave them pointers and a com at the end for it, and getting coms as DPS is a bit harder since people auto com healer or tank more.

Yeah right.. so there are more like that one paladin in A10s calling the other 7 players in the party being stupid because he didn't want to bother with the tether during the spinning boss so he could attack add once or twice, thus improving his damage.. when being called out, he gave us his fflogs saying he's in the right..

Everyone who wants to parse is already parsing. What people are really asking for is a means to enforce others to parse, erroneously thinking this will somehow bridge the player skill gap.

Lazy people are going to be lazy whether or not there's an in-game meter telling you how lazy you are. I'm perfectly fine with the status quo re: parsers, we need more effective in-game teaching methods (Hall of the Intermediate, Class/Job quests designed to teach you how to use your skills a la the NIN Mudra quests).

As far as PS4 players go... That's not an easy fix any way you slice it.

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Originally Posted by StarRosie

I've seen far more people use a parser to number shame, bully, and harass people. So I can wholly see where Yoshi comes from on that respect.

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Your experience actually mirrors mine, but I have some personal insight into why, as I have a crystal ball, and it actually boils down to them not being allowed.

It's not worth bringing up a parse in chat nicely, because even the nicest mention can still get reported. I've seen it. So, it's never worth the risk to tell someone their numbers are low. All of the polite criticism that I and others would love to bring up has to stay unsaid, or we risk a ban.

Unfortunately then, the only times I actually see it are when someone is upset and they snap, making the bad decision to call someone out rudely.

It really sucks.

Might I ask, why are people so insistent on having an in-game parser anyway?
Why not just use a 3rd party parser?

(Besides PS4 reasons)

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Originally Posted by ShinMetsu

Might I ask, why are people so instant on an in-game parser anyway?
Why not just use a 3rd party parser?

(Besides PS4 reasons)

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while I prefer ps4 less upgrades to worry about I liked pc for at least the third party option , but now im on p24 and dont have the option to do anything so half the base is possibly ps4 and they shouldnt be punished

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Originally Posted by ShinMetsu

Might I ask, why are people so instant on an in-game parser anyway?
Why not just use a 3rd party parser?

(Besides PS4 reasons)

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So that you can mention it and not get reported for using illegal add-ons.

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

This, and I am sure helpful people can tell without prasers anyway, so it is not needed.

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I think tanks and healers get comms more because their job is more obvious to critique, and thus may be seen as more stressful. If we had parser you'd probably see DD get more comms than now, also in general I imagine people would learn how to play their job better sooner since they'd know where they stood and what was expected in a tangible way. Without having a detailed breakdown of your performance it is hard to know just how bad/different you are compared to someone else. Key take away I got while watching a popular warrior guide maker on youtube, he was talking about how important it was for him to have it installed to improve and how he thought he was doing just fine until he had it installed to tell him the truth.

At the moment their job is pretty anonymized (DD), I mean you can watch and give tips as you said but it requires you to /watch/ them, some things hard to see, and which of course requires content or a job that allows you that privilege. Bad healer/tank far more obvious than a bad DD due to all eyes on them and near no eyes allowed on DD, as well as the standard of quality being required higher (you could have your DD afk in some dungeons and make it out with healer/tank combo, that doesn't mean they should though, meanwhile your tank/healer afk most likely the content will never finish).

I also think the lack of ability to easily reference the problem (again tank/healer you can, better at least) makes it so people get more "telling me I did something wrong, even if polite, is harassment" something I found far less often in WoW.. but we all knew who was doing poorly then because more than half the group had it on and one person was probably pasting to chat after certain fights.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

It's not worth bringing up a parse in chat nicely, because even the nicest mention can still get reported. I've seen it. So, it's never worth the risk to tell someone their numbers are low. All of the polite criticism that I and others would love to bring up has to stay unsaid, or we risk a ban.

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See, this is where I'd say get a little creative, you can still bring it up and offer advice in a constructive way, just don't bring up the parser. First and foremost, don't bring it up in the middle of a fight, that's just gonna stress people out. If people want to improve, they will take what advice they can. But I don't think an official parser or allowing people to bring up parser numbers, is gonna help. Some people don't have the drive to improve or the desire to improve and no amount of tools, restrictions and resources put out to help them improve will make them improve. It's frustrating, I know, it sucks, I know. But there isn't much we can do there. Truly bad players will stay bad players.

Not to sound rude and I apologize if anyone takes this personally, but to use an old saying from my days as a Software QA tester. "You can't account for stupidity and laziness."

Add in game, personal parser, and keep the dps shaming a bannable offense as it falls under harassment. It's not hard.

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Originally Posted by ShinMetsu

More like the community that likes to rely on their own skill rather than 3rd party tools.
Never used those kind of triggers beofre and it quite honestly simply disgusts me when people do. Yes, I find it disgusting.
If you're not capable of doing the content without assistance, then maybe it's not the content you should be doing.

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You look at these things like crutches, and while they can be in some cases, my experience in other games is that they are primarily tools that skilled and knowledgeable players use to push their gameplay to even greater heights.

Imagine being able to mouse over heal and have it not mess up your GCD. Just think of how much more efficient your play could be. Imagine being able to actually customize your UI to what you wish it could be, instead of working with SE's limitations.

Parsers in general use encourage or at least reinforce toxic behavior. Private groups that want tools to better themselves already have those options and I see no need for any wider adoption than that. Certainly not for any official in-game options.

Anyone who has been in a WoW LFR group and seen the constant, demands to "Kick every DPS under X" or "Kick the healer doing Y" know too well when open parser usage invites. Hell sometimes it's nearly impossible to just play because folks are spamming so many vote-kicks every.single.pull and I just have that many "No" buttons to click.

Even for relatively serious groups Parsers honestly do not offer much utility. Simply looking at number doesn't tell you much. Getting anything substantive requires really dedicated drilling down into the play-by-play details. Only the most dedicated and serious players have anything meaningful to gain from them. Most folks advocating for them just kind of like seeing a number because... numbers and/or bragging rights.

As far as I'm concerned an in-game parser or any general official support for them represents a very-high risk in terms of degradation o the play environment for relatively small gains. High Risk/Low Reward is not a bet I want them taking on this game.

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Originally Posted by HPDelron

Parsers in general use encourage or at least reinforce toxic behavior. Private groups that want tools to better themselves already have those options and I see no need for any wider adoption than that. Certainly not for any official in-game options.

Anyone who has been in a WoW LFR group and seen the constant, demands to "Kick every DPS under X" or "Kick the healer doing Y" know too well when open parser usage invites. Hell sometimes it's nearly impossible to just play because folks are spamming so many vote-kicks every.single.pull and I just have that many "No" buttons to click.

Even for relatively serious groups Parsers honestly do not offer much utility. Simply looking at number doesn't tell you much getting anything substantive requires really dedicated drilling down into the play-by-play details. Only the most dedicated and serious players have anything meaningful to gain from them. The rest folks just kind of like seeing a number because... numbers and/or bragging rights.

As far as I'm concerned an in-game parser or any general official support for them represents a very-high risk in terms of degradation o the play environment for relatively small gains. High Risk/Low Reward is not a bet I want them taking on this game.

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Some bars are set a bit silly but what is wrong with expecting people to contribute? Asking for a baseline contribution is not inherently toxic, I find it very weird that is how this community sees that. Some content requires a specific minimum level of effort and to ask people to put that in is only natural and respectable to each other's time. Although most content that gets that sort of thing is not generic dungeon/easy tier content, so casual people really need not worry about that - just make sure to do more than nothing since a parser would reveal an afk "watching something on another screen" player.

It reads like "don't expect anything from me~ I give you what I want".. very anti team to me XD. Sure there will be some people with awful baselines, but you just don't join those groups and if for some reason you find that everyone is setting the baseline too high it might mean the classic "when the whole world is wrong, maybe it's not the world that is wrong".

Parsers also offer a lot of utility, even for casual players. It's a clear reference to your performance and just the basic numbers themselves can be helpful; however, it is fairly easy to drill down in most of the tools offered these days so it doesn't require a math degree and 200,000,000 hours play experience to do.

As for the vote kick spam I didn't experience it that often, and also would note certain content has /a lot/ more people in one vote-kickable group and so it is not comparable to FFXIV in a very fair way (max of 8 in FFXIV, therefore of course the amount of spam is lower.. less people in one group).

I could count the number of times I've seen a parser in WoW used to seriously get people to up their contribution in a constructive way on my fingers If I had two hands amputated. I've seen it exactly 0 times. In public groups people use parsers for bullying or bragging, that's it. They could not even have any other purpose. Getting anything out of parser requires digging down into the details seeing what went right or wrong on a GCD-by-GCD basis, otherwise it's just a glorified SSS. You can't do that in a pug. We already have SSS if you just want to know if you can execute your rotation with some basic competency.

Anyway WoWs LFR is exactly comparable to 24-man raid instances like Void Ark & Dun Scaith. The instance size and role as weekly-casual-loot-source in each game is exactly the same. FF14 raids just offer you more chances to actually screw up. I for one enjoy being able to go 3 pulls without having to close 5 windows because some guy needs to feel like a big man by constantly starting vote kicks and posting recount summaries.

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Originally Posted by HPDelron

I could count the number of times I've seen a parser in WoW used to seriously get people to up their contribution in a constructive way on my fingers If I had two hands amputated. I've seen it exactly 0 times. In public groups people use parsers for bullying or bragging, that's it.

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Anecdotal, in which case my experience has been the opposite helping people improve on their own and as a group, it has also been used in my experience to remove people who refused to improve and were doing nothing (afk levels, riding off everyone else) making the experience smoother and less stressful for everyone.

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Originally Posted by HPDelron

They could not even have any other purpose. Getting anything out of parser requires digging down into the details seeing what went right or wrong on a GCD-by-GCD basis, otherwise it's just a glorified SSS. You can't do that in a pug.

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Patently false. If you're unable to get anything from a parser then I guess that's your issue with the parser, but both statements are false on a scale that includes more than your own issues with parser.

Just a thought I had - your issue with the parser's helpfulness may be that your front number is actually good, in which case congratulations lol, but not everyone has the luxury and referencing that front number for a while will actually be enough to be helpful (until they get so good they have to dig deep, but I'd argue that is not the majority).

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Originally Posted by HPDelron

Anyway WoWs LFR is exactly comparable to 24-man raid instances like Void Ark & Dun Scaith. The instance size and role as weekly-casual-loot-source in each game is exactly the same. FF14 raids just offer you more chances to actually screw up. I for one enjoy being able to go 3 pulls without having to close 5 windows because some guy needs to feel like a big man by constantly starting vote kicks and posting recount summaries.

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Except you can vote kick as a whole raid and its 30 members iirc (25-40, depending on content), so it's not the same. You can't vote kick someone else's players in FFXIV.

30 member party > 8 member party (in which there are 3 of, so you get 24 total but they're separated in the system's eyes). Smaller group would logically lead to less vote kick prompts, also less information probably also leads to less votekick prompts.

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Originally Posted by HPDelron

snip

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You can't teach someone 30 hours of gameplay experience in 30 seconds of text. You can't.

If someone is simply not up to snuff for the content, I don't see the problem with saying "You're not good enough. Go improve and try again later." in the form of a kick.

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Originally Posted by HPDelron

Anyone who has been in a WoW LFR group and seen the constant, demands to "Kick every DPS under X" or "Kick the healer doing Y" know too well when open parser usage invites. Hell sometimes it's nearly impossible to just play because folks are spamming so many vote-kicks every.single.pull and I just have that many "No" buttons to click.

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This is a lie. Sorry but it is an outright lie. You all need to knock off repeating hearsay as if its fact.

Not sure why this is brought up. It has caused so many issues on wow I no longer play the game because of the acidic community. It is not worth it and might be a programming nightmare for ps4/pc compat at this juncture.