Prepared for "Machinist Syndrome"?

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Man, what is your issue with Machinists?

And seriously, don't be afraid or shy away from a job just because it's technical. A little effort and practice is what it takes to be good at any job.

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You have to remember that in forums, issues will be sensationalized. If you were to believe the forums, MCH would be an obsolete dead job. But in game they are played more often than Dragoons (haven't see one of these in about 3 weeks in DF post 50).

And then DKs... I don't see the issue with them. Its probably my favorite class to tank on. I don't really care if it was DPS in FFXI. Monks were DPS in EQ and Tanks in EQ2 and that was fine. Iconic classes sometimes change roles in sequels. It happens. Usually for the best.

The real problem with MCH, IMO is like I said earlier.. that pitiful sound their popguns make. Its a firearm and makes less sound than daggers. That makes no sense and is underwhelming.

I have a feeling they'll do red mage right but samurai will have problems. Samurai has so much expectations around it that they might try to give them too many things to do so they don't feel "boring." That's what they tried to do with mch, give them a lot of things to do. But the more things they have to do the harder it's to balance and you eventually end up with a lot of buffs and stuff that people will just say "this other sword class does less effort and does better damage." I just hope they keep their word about reducing skills bloat, there's too many buffs to keep track of for some of these jobs.

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Originally Posted by Ririta

Why did they add machinist instead of muskeeter?

I was actually hyped for muskeeter. I didn't want automations and cast bars and bard buffs and stuff, I just wanted a gun job without bells and whistles.

As for the thread - I've already accepted that red mage won't heal or support and will just be another flavour of dialing phone numbers to deal damage. I'm ok with that; just want to be free from the pain of being a gimped black mage.

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We all just wanted to be pirates :x
I guess Yoshida wanted to give Cid a job

If we think about it, why do we get machinist when that's something you'd see garleans creating than eorzeans? Musketeer is already something practiced in eorzea...
It's too bad, I still love mch a lot but if I had to choose musketeer would be better.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

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I don't have a issue with Machinist itself as it is my Main Job that I play in the game for everything PvE and PvP with every other Job just gathering dust for me since I only playing to level them to max level for their Job Storyline.

The issue I have is the fallout that has scared the Machinist Job's reputation in the Player Base tell this day due to what happened during 3.0 despite SE fixing the Machinist's damage output and other aspects. Let us just say the First Impression hit MCH hard in this game and all attempts to make MCh more appealing to players who have yet to player Machinist or were heavily influenced by their First Impression to give MCH a better reputation, even if player number increase may not be affected, has failed which is a incident I hope may never again happen with future new Jobs either they are Tank, healer, or DPS.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

The issue I have is the fallout that has scared the Machinist Job's reputation in the Player Base tell this day due to what happened during 3.0 despite SE fixing the Machinist's damage output and other aspects.

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I'm pretty sure this 'fallout' is just a forum community thing (aka, the vocal minority). Like I said before, I see more MCH than DRG in the DF. And asking around some circles, the reasons people don't play MCH is they either don't want to play a gun class, would rather be playing classes they started with, or like me just don't like the aesthetics of the class.

Sorry but when I play a gun class, I want to hear bangs, cracks, and booms. Not pangs and piffs.

While sound/visual effects are an easy fix, it seems like Magitek weaponry (of which is the base for MCH tech/weapon design) just doesn't seem that loud. Not even the cannons really. I personally can live with that.

Then again, there's that satisfying sound when you take someone out with Between the Eyes in PvP. . .

This 'Machinist Syndrome' as you term it was primarily from players not knowing how to play the Job and making knee-jerk reactions as a result - followed by the herd mentality of those parroting others opinions as their own despite never playing the Job. Yoshida himself had to all but say to players to 'git gud' at the Job before people started realigning their views afterwards. Same thing happened with DRK: about a week in people were claiming PLD was the better Tank until Gordias Savage hit then that ignorance went away with the quickness.

So as far as RDM and SAM goes, then yeah I'll be expecting those among the community that barely knows how to use their whole toolkit to condemn the Jobs, whilst the more prudent will give said Jobs enough practice and testing to see where they truly stand.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

While sound/visual effects are an easy fix, it seems like Magitek weaponry (of which is the base for MCH tech/weapon design) just doesn't seem that loud. Not even the cannons really. I personally can live with that.

Then again, there's that satisfying sound when you take someone out with Between the Eyes in PvP. . .

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It shouldn't be quieter than the following:

White Mage Attacks
Dagger Attacks
Bow Attacks

That's just the audible part. Visually.. its weird that the stealth class/job rogue/ninja is flashier as well.

Aesthetics can go a long way to help with popularity. I'm serious.. I'd switch to MCH right now if they fixed this issue. The way the class plays looks interesting to me. But when I did the first job quest and hear the poof poof piff of the 'gun' I went back to WHM. When Stone (not 2 and 3) and Fluid Aura are better visually and audibly... there's an issue.

That definitely sounds like a foley issue more than the job itself. Remember when they had to lower the volume of Broil and Meditation? (Those really were loud, lol)

I wouldn't mind if they turned up the volume a little on MCH effects, but I'm not expecting the sounds of modern weaponry. . .I mean, unless they start giving us better gun designs and less antique pieces.

More Deathlocke, less Armageddon and other 19th century muskets/carbines. We're supposed to be cutting edge here.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

That definitely sounds like a foley issue more than the job itself. Remember when they had to lower the volume of Broil and Meditation? (Those really were loud, lol)

I wouldn't mind if they turned up the volume a little on MCH effects, but I'm not expecting the sounds of modern weaponry. . .I mean, unless they start giving us better gun designs and less antique pieces.

More Deathlocke, less Armageddon and other 19th century muskets/carbines. We're supposed to be cutting edge here.

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The .45ACP, Colt long .45 and various others are some pretty old rounds. The biggest innovation (other than the feed mechanisms) in modern firearms was smokeless powder. Which I assume that innovation is already in FFXIV's technological level (its basic chemistry) since 5rnd carbines are standard (that puts firearms in FFXIV to 1890-1930 at least).

Biggest difference is industry. Meaning rifles, muskets, and carbines cannot be mass produced. No biggie there. That's why MCH is a job and not a class. Any smuck with an axe can be a marauder. But not a warrior. Not everyone has the ability to use a gun (in Eorzea at least, Empire is another story).

I just got a Mare's Leg .44mag the other day. I'd love for the MCH firearms to match that to some degree. It might be a bit primitive for the steampunk look but its classy looking:

https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/...iRes/73926.jpg

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

I just got a Mare's Leg .44mag the other day. I'd love for the MCH firearms to match that to some degree. It might be a bit primitive for the steampunk look but its classy looking:

https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/...iRes/73926.jpg

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If you get a chance, take a look at the Adamantite-barreled Culverin. There's some similarity there.

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Originally Posted by Vorx

Well they do mention its a cross with White and Dark magic so maybe a healing just unique to them or something like Cura or Curega.
But your right Dark was a DPS in FFXI, the Sam being a Tank, not so sure. I only ever seen people using it as a DPS. Still as i said we should be more worried about Sam, not much they can do to mess up RDM.

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I doubt it will be cura or curaga. The spells are Cura and Curaga in the JPN version... They just translated them as II and III in our version... cause they didn't thing it would be obvious enough.

And also, I think they're saying its a mixture. So its not like its able to use both magic types, Red magic is a mixture of the two and it will be a DPS focused magic.

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Originally Posted by Anarnee

I doubt it will be cura or curaga. The spells are Cura and Curaga in the JPN version... They just translated them as II and III in our version... cause they didn't thing it would be obvious enough.

And also, I think they're saying its a mixture. So its not like its able to use both magic types, Red magic is a mixture of the two and it will be a DPS focused magic.

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Right. A mixture meaning that Red Magic in this game is powered by both one's own aether (a la Black) and the aether of the environment around you (White). It'll be interesting to see what effects it will have.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

Right. A mixture meaning that Red Magic in this game is powered by both one's own aether (a la Black) and the aether of the environment around you (White). It'll be interesting to see what effects it will have.

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I am more curious about the Lore of Red Magic.

We know so far White is limited to certain people who must be chosen but mostly only Padjal are chosen. Black Magic is mostly forbidden areas of magic for its pure destructive ability.

This leaves the question on where did Red Magic comes from and how is it seen by the people of the World.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

I am more curious about the Lore of Red Magic.

We know so far White is limited to certain people who must be chosen but mostly only Padjal are chosen. Black Magic is mostly forbidden areas of magic for its pure destructive ability.

This leaves the question on where did Red Magic comes from and how is it seen by the people of the World.

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My money says Sharlayan.

As long as they keep it contained within the job and not f*** up any of the existing ones (*cough* bard 3.0) then IDGAF how bad RDM and/or SAM sucks.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

I am more curious about the Lore of Red Magic.

We know so far White is limited to certain people who must be chosen but mostly only Padjal are chosen. Black Magic is mostly forbidden areas of magic for its pure destructive ability.

This leaves the question on where did Red Magic comes from and how is it seen by the people of the World.

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Aren't black magic those that draws the power from the void, while white magic, those that draws the power from nature?

(talking about the magic itself, not being a white or black mage)

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

My money says Sharlayan.

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That certainly going to be the new "Allagan" meme these days if every new magic is created by Sharlayan :p

Though Sharlayan is only one possibility. However, it would open up more possible lore about Sharlayan if the nation's origin is related to Mhach and Amdapor Survivors which would greatly explain why Sharlayan has knowledge of both Black and White Magic.

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Originally Posted by Ririta

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From how the lore goes that what they are but Red Magic is a magic that use both White and Black magic as mentioned in the Red Mage description. We don't quite know who would have created Red Magic considering lore wise Black and White Magic are currently limited to certain people due to the past incidents involving Two Civilizations, Mhach and Amdapor, that had Mastery over Black and White Magic waging war against each other and almost destroyed the world because of their abuse of White and Black magic.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

Any smuck with an axe can be a marauder. But not a warrior. Not everyone has the ability to use a gun (in Eorzea at least, Empire is another story).

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Actually, the whole idea behind Machinistry as a combat art was effectively "Homeland defense for the everyman". Not every Ishgardian is a noble, not every noble a knight.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

I just got a Mare's Leg .44mag the other day. I'd love for the MCH firearms to match that to some degree. It might be a bit primitive for the steampunk look but its classy looking:

https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/...iRes/73926.jpg

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Mmm, sweet sweet gun porn. . . I was pretty disappointed in the Ironworks MCH weapon. I once drew up my "ideal" MCH wep, a stocked version of the Warwolf Knifelock. I'd prefer it NOT be a revolver essentially, but just using it as a base, if they gave us more knifelock-style weps, or MCH weps with proper stocks (the Mythrite Barreled Musketoon/Storm Officer's Musketoon are that, but we don't hold them properly) I'd be just as satisfied.

I think what happens is that when a new job is created, people immediately thinks that job will be overpower and the best of the best jobs. But Square Enix try o balance all them, making the job one more into the game. Samurai and Red Mage won't be Overpower or special. will be like the other classes.

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Originally Posted by Laerune

Samurai reminds of WoW rogue, you built up something then you unleash it via another skill.

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If this is properly how it works i will be so happy. I don't care about the fact it's samurai i just want more combo building.

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Originally Posted by Anarnee

I doubt it will be cura or curaga. The spells are Cura and Curaga in the JPN version... They just translated them as II and III in our version... cause they didn't thing it would be obvious enough.

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Ugh I absolutely LOATHE the I II III nonsense with the spells!! I grew up with Cure , Cura, Curaga playing the old final fantasy games and kingdom hearts ! So I was a little thrown off when I started playing FFXIV and saw these numbers instead? But whateves its a small detail I gotta live with.

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Originally Posted by Laerune

Samurai reminds of WoW rogue, you built up something then you unleash it via another skill.

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Originally Posted by Karathix

If this is properly how it works i will be so happy. I don't care about the fact it's samurai i just want more combo building.

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isn't that basically how Warrior works? ^^

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Originally Posted by Anarnee

I doubt it will be cura or curaga. The spells are Cura and Curaga in the JPN version... They just translated them as II and III in our version... cause they didn't thing it would be obvious enough.

And also, I think they're saying its a mixture. So its not like its able to use both magic types, Red magic is a mixture of the two and it will be a DPS focused magic.

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Considering RDM is a pure DPS, I doubt it will have anything like that. Maybe a small heal like SMN at best.

F: Red Mage is a pure DPS?
Y: Yes, it’s a pure DPS.


F: Some players might have been surprised with the fact that Red Mage will be DPS.
Y: I also have the image of the Red Mage being a hybrid job between Black and White Mage. However, we had to fit it into the FFXIV formula. Otherwise, it might turn out as a job that isn’t too useful. FFXIV is a standalone title in the FF series, so while keeping the essential roots of the Red Mage job in general, it will be unique to XIV, as well. You will see it as a new type of Red Mage.

http://gamerescape.com/2016/12/26/fa...festival-2016/

As for the new jobs. I have high hopes for Red Mage. Though, honestly, I have never played red mage before in any other final fantasy game. ( Did FFX-2 have Red Mage? Because I played that game obsessively.) I am just looking forward to another Magic class. I LOVE all my healers, though I main AST. <3 And I have Summoner and Black Mage leveled to 60 I don't play them too often cuz I'm terrible at them. Black Mage is hard to keep up damage with and Summoner I don't know I think I just need to practice more because I spend all my time reapplying dots and spamming Ruin II, and using up my aetherflow stack to blast out that Ahk Morn, maybe I'm playing it wrong? I don't know. Anyways off topic!

I hope Red Mage will be a fun, new magic dps to play! With lots of flashy moves and more fast paced and less standing around in comparison to the other Mage dps. All in all I am looking forward to it! And though I hate swords, I am excited for my floaty crystal. (which I wish they would give to AST. I'm bored of the floating rings already. Give me a Crystal Ball with my floating tarot cards!)

woo new jobs! Woo Storm Blood!

I have a feeling samurai will suffer this syndrome. :( Most players want things fast paced in their play-style and SAM's slow but powerful melee attacks are the complete opposite.

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Originally Posted by TristanBlane

Ugh I absolutely LOATHE the I II III nonsense with the spells!! I grew up with Cure , Cura, Curaga playing the old final fantasy games and kingdom hearts ! So I was a little thrown off when I started playing FFXIV and saw these numbers instead? But whateves its a small detail I gotta live with.

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SE thought the names would be too confusing for NA players (we're too dumb for it).

Before judging that too negatively, think back to the last 24-man you ran and the kinds of people who actually play this game.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

SE thought the names would be too confusing for NA players (we're too dumb for it).

Before judging that too negatively, think back to the last 24-man you ran and the kinds of people who actually play this game.

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It's simply way easier to recognize. In german localization we still have those names, which makes Sophia a bit harder.

Because it's more difficult to distinguish between Blitzga and Blitzra than between Thunder II and Thunder III, also it's limited.

I mean, FF11 had both, Curaga IV for example. Why not Curagaka, Curagaraka oder Curafasagaka? The suffix-system isn't that good for a still evolving system.

The Council of Magi was right:
[spoiler]
Proceedings of the 284th Convocation of the Amdapori Council of Magi:
A Vote was called to settle on a Name for a potent and newly-fashioned Healing-Spell. Being that said Healing-Spell was an Augmentation of Curaga, erst the most potent Healing-Spell, the following Names were proposed by the Council. Curago, Curaza, Curaja, Curagura Finding the afore-written Names duly lacking in Gravity and the existing Hierarchy of Spell-Names needlessly abstruse, the Council did Vote by a margin of Seventeen to Three to do away with existing Naming-Conventions entirely and adopt a new system of numerical Spell-Names, as writ below, to be used henceforth. Cure I, Cure II, Cure III, Cure IV[/spoiler]

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Originally Posted by PocketVolcano

I have a feeling samurai will suffer this syndrome. :( Most players want things fast paced in their play-style and SAM's slow but powerful melee attacks are the complete opposite.

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Well it can be expected since people want more fast pace combat over slow combat. Though I think the most common thing people may say is "LoL Samurai" due to how people may try to spam the Samurai charge skills expecting to still remain mobile while it charges only to realize it requires the SAM to stay still and take the hit due to being unable to move while charging.

Though that is the risk a Charge type DPS Job takes for performing High Damage Charge skills though majority of the time will be just building the stacks required to perform the Charge skills so it will still be mobile and fast pace majority of the time.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

So out of boredom....

Have you prepared yourself for the possibility of Samurai and/or Red Mage facing a "Machinist syndrome"?

"Machinist Syndrome" is basically a Job has been built up with hype for years and people have certain expectations for this Job only to be disappointed and driven away from the Job reach a point the Job becomes one of the lowest or is the lowest played Job in the game.

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You play with bad Machnists

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Actually, the whole idea behind Machinistry as a combat art was effectively "Homeland defense for the everyman". Not every Ishgardian is a noble, not every noble a knight.

Mmm, sweet sweet gun porn. . . I was pretty disappointed in the Ironworks MCH weapon. I once drew up my "ideal" MCH wep, a stocked version of the Warwolf Knifelock. I'd prefer it NOT be a revolver essentially, but just using it as a base, if they gave us more knifelock-style weps, or MCH weps with proper stocks (the Mythrite Barreled Musketoon/Storm Officer's Musketoon are that, but we don't hold them properly) I'd be just as satisfied.

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It would have been cool to actually hold larger guns like larger guns. That's part of the reason I like the Garo pistol so much, for its size it feels like it would be the best to actually hold like MCH does. I'm no gun expert myself but holding a carbine in one hand and firing it seems...out there to me lol

SAM and RDM are way too popular to suffer the MCH fate and that is me liking MCH lol. Those 2 jobs are just way too iconic, hell i know ppl that have said they will play it and "like" it cuz...they will learn to like it! lol

lol I'm already prepared for the endless nerd rage. \o/ And I will cackle because what idiot really thinks these Jobs are gonna be like their previous incarnations??

It's safe to say both new jobs are going to have their highs and lows. Something's going to be a little weak. Something's going to be slightly OP. Something with a legacy name isn't going to work like the original namesake. Something just isn't going to be liked at all. And something will be LOVED.

My best advice to anyone is approach the new jobs as exactly that: a NEW job. SAM shares MNK gear. Maybe it will or won't be as strong as MNK. Just don't play it hoping for the MNK experience (or the SAM experience of FFXI) and you're not likely to be disappointed.

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Originally Posted by SeriousxSarcasm

And I will cackle because what idiot really thinks these Jobs are gonna be like their previous incarnations??

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From the link I posted earlier in the thread:

F: Some players might have been surprised with the fact that Red Mage will be DPS.
Y: I also have the image of the Red Mage being a hybrid job between Black and White Mage. However, we had to fit it into the FFXIV formula. Otherwise, it might turn out as a job that isn’t too useful. FFXIV is a standalone title in the FF series, so while keeping the essential roots of the Red Mage job in general, it will be unique to XIV, as well. You will see it as a new type of Red Mage

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Originally Posted by SeriousxSarcasm

lol I'm already prepared for the endless nerd rage. \o/ And I will cackle because what idiot really thinks these Jobs are gonna be like their previous incarnations??

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I would love to see a justification by said players for a class that:

1. Heals Less than WHM/AST/SCH
2. Does Less spell damage than BLM/SMN
3. Does Less melee damage than NIN/MNK/DRG
4. Can't Tank
5. Can't buff/debuff like a BRD/MCH

So of course it will have to do something it didn't do in Final Fantasy on the NES. We don't need a Esuna/Virus bot. Because if it was directly translated. In a four man group with a RDM, would still need a dedicated healer. And it wouldn't do as much as a specialized DPS. So what would a pure Hybrid bring to the table?

FFXIV isn't EQ where they have 6 man groups, and hybrids actually do fill in gaps (a well balanced group is a Tank, Healer, Support, Hybrid, and 2 DPS), instead the group is 4 man (Tank, Healer, 2 DPS). RDM wouldn't fit anywhere except as pure DPS.

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Originally Posted by Stitches1974

From the link I posted earlier in the thread:

F: Some players might have been surprised with the fact that Red Mage will be DPS.
Y: I also have the image of the Red Mage being a hybrid job between Black and White Mage. However, we had to fit it into the FFXIV formula. Otherwise, it might turn out as a job that isn’t too useful. FFXIV is a standalone title in the FF series, so while keeping the essential roots of the Red Mage job in general, it will be unique to XIV, as well. You will see it as a new type of Red Mage

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Not sure I understand how this refutes my statement... I'm talking about all the people that are deadset on RDM being "jack of all trades," when it literally can't be because of how FF14 content works lol. Yes we're gonna get "the roots" of the job, but it's not going to be what these people seem to want.

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Originally Posted by SeriousxSarcasm

Not sure I understand how this refutes my statement... I'm talking about all the people that are deadset on RDM being "jack of all trades," when it literally can't be because of how FF14 content works lol. Yes we're gonna get "the roots" of the job, but it's not going to be what these people seem to want.

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I'm not refuting it. I'm reinforcing it.