If a tank loses aggro, whose fault is it?

If a tank loses hate right at the beginning then it's the dps fault for not letting them establish hate.

If the tank loses hate after the first 10 seconds then it's the tank's fault, almost always. Especially if they get cocky and turn off their tank stance.

If the tank loses hate in AOE speed killing then it's the tank's fault. The dps are not supposed to hold back and all the tank has to do is spam their aoe enmity.

A tank's top priority is keeping hate. What often happens is a tank trying to be a dps and paying for it. A tank is a tank. A tank's dps is secondary when there's no risk of losing hate.

The only reason not to use Quelling Strikes or Shadewalker is if there's a much more vital and/or difficult time in which to gather tank enmity coming up soon, but similarly the only reason the tank should ever lose threat, and only very briefly at that, is if QS & SW are convention used for the pull and that wasn't done this time, briefly surprising the tank.

That said, it can easily be worth a Dragoon blowing Elusive Jump if he's the only one badly racking up enmity. Just pop it before a SSD/DFD.

Did you check their gear? It's possible they were a mediocre/learning tank with the ilvl gap, most people won't experience it if they play with similar players or when the content is actually relevant but a special challenge happens at certain ilvl creep moments when a competent player wields it and it can be pretty exciting. Way harder to tank when you scrape the barrel of ilvl and your DD capped it 50ilvls ago than it is to hold hate on any other boss scenario.

So losing hate if you're not living for hate in every moment is really not that strange. Of course it'd be great to always get great tanks but that's not going to happen (like any role). While you did your best so still Tank's fault I guess deepening on the gear difference I wouldn't be shocked this happened, especially on paladin with meh group enmity control (dat flash).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Venoshock

Um, no. In a raid, if the mt is a dark knight, it's a dps loss for them to use power slash, so as a warrior, if i'm about to rip aggro I wont use butchers block because if I rip hate, it's then my fault. If the healers aren't using shroud at all and they rip hate, it's their fault because they're not using their aggro-preventative abilities to stop themselves from ripping hate. Ninjas should be using shadewalker and smoke screen as much as possible and everyone else should be using their preventative abilities.

it's called working as a team by the using of all your utility.

---

This wasn't a raid though. It's just a dungeon. A good DRK should be able to keep aggro with a few buffed power slashes and a few more later on and you should be set. If the potency difference in DRK combos matter that much in the raid, you need to talk to your DPS..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

This wasn't a raid though. It's just a dungeon. A good DRK should be able to keep aggro with a few buffed power slashes and a few more later on and you should be set. If the potency difference in DRK combos matter that much in the raid, you need to talk to your DPS..

---

I wa replying to the dude saying it's the tanks fault no matter the situation, so my point still stands.

Also buffed powerslahes? I sincerely hope you don't mean burning dark arts on them right? The dark knight should keep powerslash use to a minimal simply because they don't get any MP back from it and it's potency is the weakest out of the 3 rotations. obviously there'll be times when quelling, shade, smoke, shroud isn't available so they'll have to use it, but for optimal play the team should work together.

Sounds like both the Tank and the other BLM's weapons were broken.. That or they were just using extremely outdated gear.

There is practically no way a BLM sitting there in Umbral Ice will pull hate with Thunder + Thundercloud Procs - even if all the tank is doing is spamming Fast Blade/Heavy Swing/Hard Slash in tank stance.
Unless the Tank's weapon is broken and they are doing practically no damage.
There is practically no way a DPS will not pull hate if a Tank has a broken weapon - unless they too have a broken weapon..

Even if neither of them had a broken weapon, it is indeed the Tank's fault.
DPS just flat out shouldn't be pulling hate unless there is some crazy iLvl difference.

I would love to see the reaction of the poor DPS that joined that run after you got fortunately removed.. I would have been happy to get vote kicked from that mess.

In your situation you described, it was the tanks fault, now in lvl 60 dungeons, where you as dps could be ilv 250+ and he may be lvl 200 ish. Id put the blame on you. But in your situation you laid out. The tank was to blame.

Tank should be able to keep aggro. DPS should be using aggro mitigators on bosses, but that's as far as you need to go. If the tank can't hold aggro after you have used all the tools at your disposal to manage your aggro, no one else is to blame except the tank. In tanking stance, a simple 123 is enough to hold aggro against even competent DPS. Not holding aggro means that the tank wasn't even doing that much.

I would suggest initiating a vote-kick in a situation like that. People that obviously don't know shit and still berate others are the worst.

100% tanks fault. playing as Nin with trash mobs i often get aggro but 9/10 tanks i play with get the aggro back easy. and thats without me having to use my enmity passer!.

It sounds like you probably out geared the tank which is why he lost enmity. whenever i start to take aggro from lots of enemies i tend to just swap to single focused combat before they are all attacking me

lol didnt read

I think it is both fault, and it depends the cases.

Every time I overgear the tank:
When I'm dps, I can pull off aggro every time I feel like to do it. Just put all my cd on a single mob.
When I'm heal, I can pull off aggro every time I feel like to do it. Overheal is my second weapon.

Every time the Tank is exp and geared:
When I'm dps, I can make an aggro war with tank and he feels it, and he let me eat my mob when he needs do other things.
When I'm heal, I just regen tank a millisecond before the pull and the job is done.

Most of the blame imho goes to dps, because dps can stop when aggro warning lights on, but he doesn't care. Insufficient tank may slow down dps for this, but dps can avoid get aggro in every situation.

Different story for the healer, a legit healer that does not want get aggro on purpose needs heal anyway, so he takes aggro if tank does not do its job of at least a minimal aggro on all mobs involved.

Last but not least, the teamwork of raiding and PF. Everyone needs do its job correctly, if hate goes wild someone done it poorly. Cannot count all the times I had as a tank to move a mob somewhere and it comes the idiotic dps that pulls off aggro when I'm moving it instead of dps other mobs he had to or dps him when it is the correct time to do it.

Want make a duty the hardest of all the game? Just make one where dps must hold the trigger for one second or do other things than dps. Steps of Faith anyone?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DJaySaint

~snip~

---

For your particular situation, the tank is completely at fault. The only aggro management you can do as a BLM is use Quelling Strikes whenever it is up.

That being said, it can be a DPS's fault for not using skills that halt or reduce enmity. A good tank shouldn't lose aggro, normally, but that's not accounting for lucky crits or enmity generation potent openers (like bard and machinist that build extremely quickly off the start). However, stopping DPS is never the solution- you may need to switch targets (if in single target rotation).

Likewise, it can also be a healer's fault for over-healing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by vigioX-Sun

Tank is to be blame for losing the enemy attention no matter the situation.

---

And people wonder why people don't like to tank and dps queues are always so bad..

Contrary to popular belief it's not always the tanks fault at all.

I generally find if I lose hate on something it's because someone is doing something they shouldn't be doing...

Most recent example was the last Sophia bird farm I was in. Flash the first and second demi twice. Smashed the second move onto the third and oh hey the first has punted a dps off the platform and another dps has pulled hate.

Both of those dps should have been on the second and third demis. Before even touching the first thus it was there fault they got killed /punted off. Not mine I was following the sequence as I should be.

If the dps were also doing it right the first would still be on me when the third was killed.

Sure I could have built more hate on the first but the fact remains the dps were at fault. If they followed the order of the fight hate would be fine. Both those dps got booted and replaced by the leader after 2 fails because they were to blame not me.

If you still blame the tank your basically saying it's on the tank to cover everyone else's bad play. But then again tanks get blamed when a group fails a dps check or can't skip a soar even with 5 or 6 dps...

It's not always the tanks fault. Might find more people playing tanks if they weren't automatically blamed for everything.

Always use quelling if you have it!

Just because a good tank CAN keep aggro from you without it, it's gonna be a dps loss overall if they do. I have real trouble keeping aggro off our smn even when he uses quelling sometimes on bosses, and we're about equally geared. Every time I have to use halone outside of my initial hate combo I cry a little.

Although in your case the pld was just really bad. Marking in the Vault... The only use I can see for that is to mark the one or two enemies per pack that are toughter than the rest, maybe? Even then... I mean, blm can AoE from sastasha. You should be used to that as a tank by now. If you're using all your aggro management (in blm's case, that's just "quelling before opening eno burst") and the tank still loses aggro, yeah, that's on them.

Mind you, if you're NOT using quelling on your burst and you're riding the line of enmity, there's still stuff you can be doing to help. It's not like quelling reduces your dps (which I have encountered people who actually think that, so...)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LalaRu

Most of the blame imho goes to dps, because dps can stop when aggro warning lights on, but he doesn't care. Insufficient tank may slow down dps for this, but dps can avoid get aggro in every situation.

---

If the tank is bad, the blame is on DPS?

Tbh there are only so many cases where DPS is actually responsible for pulling aggro:
1.) The tank is severely undergeared in comparison to the DPS
2.) The DPS prepull mobs before tank has a chance to pick them up
3.) Not using their aggro mitigators, Quelling Strike, Shadewalker, Smokebomb, Elusive Jump etc.
4.) Any and all combinations of the above.

The DPS is in no way responsible to slow down DPS, if the tank is doing something blatantly wrong. Should you slow down? Maybe. Is it your fault if the tank is not doing a half decent job? Absolutely not.

Extra point if you have a Nin who isn't use Shadewalker or Smokescreen at all then advise them its something they should consider. I always cast smokescreen on whoever is causing most enmity other than tank (if it isn't me) and then cast Shadewalker on tank. that way someone gets less enmity which is directed to me and then tank gets it off me! problem solved

I believe it's the DPS' fault if the DPS was attacking the wrong target (not the tanks target.) I believe it's the tanks fault if the tank isn't marking the monsters correctly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Venoshock

the only class that has an excuse to rip hate is monk as they don't have shade, smoke, quelling, shroud, elusive jump etc. #deletemonk

---

I can imagine that they give this ability to Featherfeet in 4.0
That would be more useful than the increased dodge rate.

It varies.

Some of the Tank Classes make it very difficult to retain aggro.

Sometimes the Healer seems to pull aggro - at which point of course, everyone should attack that mob as it is essential to protect the Healer.

Sometimes one of the DPS just rushes on too soon and gets aggro. A good Tank will work to take that back again.

Of course, a good Tank will ask the DPS not to do that and a good DPS will try not to attack anything the Tank has not already aggroed.

From what I read u had 1 low geared Tank (may have had a ilv110 weapon cause rng sucks & was a 2nd job with no max 2.0 relic) only thing you could have done is wait 10-20sec after "EVERY" pull to allow tank time to generate arrgo then join in with Quelling strikes (I had to ask DPS one run back in 2.55 as my PLD was around ilv115 but DPS were a ilv130 with ilv135 weapon BLM/SMN... Keeper of the lake if I'm remebering right, granted once I got past 1st boss I knew how much I had to over-arrgo to hold it so I let them return to norm, it was a challenge to say the lest)

As much as I dislike funneling my own dmg for the sake of not pulling arrgo (or doing as I mentioned as an idea above) sometimes you just gota as its the only way to get threw an instance without it going all matter of arrgo crazy. Wether u lower u'r own power or say "F it" & keep going full tilt...or say "F this" & just leave... its really u'r choice how u handle situations like that.

Acceptable reasons for losing aggro:

1) The tank forgot to flip to Shield Oath once inside a dungeon (That's happened to me on occasion. About as embarrassing as coming in with Cleric Stance active, really)

2) The tank couldn't get to every enemy to lock in aggro (Flash helps, but for only so long against sustained damage).

Every tank should hate losing aggro but be equally determined to get it back if lost.

It's the tanks fault bar none, but as a BLM you have pretty much the only class that can have a "soft" opener, like the Blizz3 opener. That way the pld can get off 2 RoH combos before you start your nuke fest. Doing that in conjunction with quelling can usually keep you just under the tank for the rest of the boss battle. As long as you use quelling on cd.

As for trash pull aggro, yeah. Nothing you can really do but quelling and expect to tank the floor.

The story was painful to read and I can't believe you stayed with that group for so long! Seems like all your other party members were really bad at the game (and possibly very much undergeared for the dungeon?).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by verilix

I believe it's the DPS' fault if the DPS was attacking the wrong target (not the tanks target.) I believe it's the tanks fault if the tank isn't marking the monsters correctly.

---

No one should be marking anything for single targeting with 2 AoE DDs (3 counting the healer) in a party... At least at the levels after the tank has gained their tank stance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ShaneDawn

If the tank is bad, the blame is on DPS?

---

Nope, bad tank is bad, you can't do anything on it, I were just referring to the pull of hate, that dps can avoid, but it can happen at higher price, see below.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ShaneDawn

Is it your fault if the tank is not doing a half decent job? Absolutely not.

---

Sure thing, and I agree. We were just talking about pull aggro, and as dps I can really avoid it, to the extent I can just stop dps and dance manderville until the flag goes yellow again. But after all we want complete a duty, and depending where we are, I am willing to take aggro and kill the mob for sake to get out there sooner o later. Sooner is better.

You can't blame the DPS for doing their job if it is a fair pull. If dps decided to pull first then it is possibly their fault depending on their gear.

Not reading seven page thread, or even the entire first wall-o'-text post, but here's my two cents:

If this were FFXI, aggro maintenance is a delicate balance that DPS and tanks (and healers, even!) need to be aware of.

But this is not FFXI. This is FFXIV, where SE has seen fit to give all tanks simply ridiculous hate tools. If a tank loses hate it's for one of only a very few reasons:

1. It's a low level dungeon, and the tank is missing most of their hate tools. In this case, it doesn't matter much. The enemies don't hit hard, and the healer should easily be able to keep themselves or others alive even if mobs stray.
2. The tank is hugely undergeared compared to the DPS. This is one of the rare cases where the DPS may be required to rein things in a bit.
3. The tank doesn't know what they are doing. There's not much excuse for this, if you're not new to the job.

Essentially, tanks are overpowered enough in the enmity department that in most cases, the DPS can do whatever the heck they want and the tank should still be able to hold hate. DPS all targeting different mobs? No problem: Flash, Overpower, Unleash, and cycle enmity combo. DPS blowing all their cooldowns at once and launching an overwhelming strike right off the bat? Standard tactics in high level fights, and the tanks deal with it just fine. Healers keeping Regen and Medica up during dungeon pulls? This is bad form, generally unnecessary, and the healers deserve a dirty look for it - but the tanks can still manage.

Things like DPS focusing on a single mob, marking kill order, or sleeping other mobs in the pack - these are crutches for early-game tanks. Once a tank gets some experience and more hate tools to use, they have no need of these things.

As a Tank main, it is absolutely the Tank's responsibility to hold hate.

There are very few situations where a DPS or Healer can potentially pull hate on a standard pull.
None of which would be considered normal situations..
Honestly the only time I think it's acceptable to blame anyone but the tank for losing hate is if a healer is needlessly overhealing with AoE heals.. Even still, these heals have to be extremely excessive in order to pull hate...
The only other situation that is really true is if the Tank is massively undergeared and the DPS is at iLvl cap. This is still the Tank's fault - because they should ensure they have appropriate gear before attempting to do a duty.

A tank should absolutely be able to hold hate off any DPS, despite lucky crits, opening burst, and even without the use of enmity reduction skills provided they have appropriate gear.
A tank's first 4 skills on a single target should secure hate for the entire fight (with a bit of maintanence as the fight progresses by stance dancing or enmity combos when necessary).
As for AoE hate, 3-4 AoE enmity skills (Overpower/Unleash/Abyssal/Flash/Scorn) and a tank should have solid hate. Not to mention a tank's AoE damage has enmity built in..

So those saying it's ever the DPS's fault for pulling hate - it really isn't. At all. Ever.
Healers? Yeah well don't spam back to back Cure III's or Medicas for no reason and it should be a similar story.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DJaySaint

Is it the Tank's fault for not utilizing their kit properly and rotating their enmity combo across mobs in an AoE situation, or the DPS's fault for not "managing their aggro"? In some scenarios it is the DPS' fault, but I will get to that in a moment.
?

---

Did you check the tanks gear, jw wondering now regardless if a tank is losing Argo on a whole mob then yea they dont know what they are doing. Now I dono about other people they may lie but from time to time a blm or a monk will put me on yellow as far as Argo, but then you just provoke and get it right back shield lob bam do flash or halone got argoo back.

I think that especially with pali having like zero aoe its easier for a single add to lose attention but the tank just has to show that they are the dominate force and tell that blm to give me my argoo back take a seat haha. I dont need blms using quelling strikes on me I dont even have it on my blm if a tank is good even if they lose argo for a second to mob or boss are anything they will get it right back. I go in sword oath all the time on blm , you just have to make sure you let the add know whos boss haha Im joking here but yea I mean its possible to momentarily lose full argo for a second but just as easy to get full control right back.

SE's fault for not putting minimum gear requirements on everything.
Then tanks fault. AoE hate is way easier to handle then single target bursting. I know you can't do it that level but say one BLM was spamming fire IV on one target while the other is doing proper aoe, not fun.

Only time I may lose aggro is during a long pull. I'll Unleash the first group, but the DPS continue to attack it while the mobs chase me. I'm not doing anything to these mobs since I'm busy running to the next group. If the distance is pretty far between groups, I can lose aggro to ranged DPS as they continue to attack. *MOST* DPS have enough sense to wait for every mob to gather on me after I pull all groups, before going all out.

depends on the situation i guess :P

Thanks for the replies. Too many to go through and quote so I'll respond to the most asked questions:

1. I did not look at the tank's gear. I looked at the other Black Mage's at the start because I always compare myself with another DPS to see what they are using and then compare our damage later on to try to get a feel if I am under performing or not. I am in mostly i230 gear with a few i260 in. I just started the game like 2 months ago. This other Black Mage had all i260 and i270 so she outgeared me by a pretty good margin (not that it matters with level sync, but spending that much time on a job you should not suck at it by now). Since the tank claims to be with the Black Mage every day, I would assume they are at least somewhat equally geared but that would be nothing more than a guess on my part.

2. I was using Quelling Strikes. I also intentionally severely gimped my rotation on the 2nd boss by using no damage boosting abilities whatsoever WITH Quelling Strikes active, while using only Blizzard III and Thunder/Thunder III procs. I was still far above the other Black Mage and fighting the tank for aggro. During trash pulls I would be green on all mobs, cast Flare, then red on all but maybe 1 or 2 which I was yellow on. This was not at the start of the fight either. At least not after a couple pulls (I've had some tanks I can double/triple Flare on at the start and not pull a single mob). So I started just using Fire II more and Flare less (or not at all). Eventually just Freeze...

At that point, when I am actively reigning in my damage to the point where it is total garbage, there is nothing I can do other than literally /sit in the middle of a fight which will be cause to boot me from a party for being AFK.

3. Yes I reported him and his partner for abuse of the vote kick system. Doing too much damage and asking a tank to use his AoE enmity tools is definitely not a reason to kick someone. As a tank I would want DPS going all out because it's the only way you learn how to handle it when you do get good DPS in your group. This guy just wanted ME to handle his enmity for him and would refuse to even attempt to get it back.

Someone mentioned about vote kicking the tank. That wouldn't be possible because he is paired with the other Black Mage. Unless I'm mistaken, you need 3/4 votes to pass yes (because you obviously can't vote for yourself)?

Anyway, the reason I even asked, because obviously in this situation the tank is at fault, is this is NOT the first time I've encountered this. I keep running in to tanks like this all the time. I just don't understand why there are so many tanks out there who behave like this, so I just wanted to make sure I wasn't setting my expectations too high by wanting a tank to actually... I don't know, TANK? Putting in minimal effort, then getting mad at the DPS for pulling aggro and berating them for not actively playing like crap so you as a trash tank can continue maintaining aggro is unacceptable. Well it should be. With my experience lately in Duty Finder, apparently this is a common practice.

If a tank has no idea how to AoE tank in a level 57 dungeon, it is never going to happen for this person. My guess is it's the PotD Effect - leveling without ever having to learn how to play your role/job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DJaySaint

Someone mentioned about vote kicking the tank. That wouldn't be possible because he is paired with the other Black Mage. Unless I'm mistaken, you need 3/4 votes to pass yes (because you obviously can't vote for yourself)?

---

It's 2/3 people for 4 man instances, and I think 4/7 for 8 man instances (That includes the person who initiated the vote).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EorzeaHero69

It's 2/3 people for 4 man instances, and I think 4/7 for 8 man instances (That includes the person who initiated the vote).

---

^ This :P
There is only 3 votes as the targeted person doesn't get to vote, so.. if there is 2 friends in a dungeon, they can always kick anyone.
If you notice there's 2 friends in a dungeon and an argument breaks out with one of them, in that case it's probably the smartest thing to just back off and comply to not lose exp/time!
Although sometimes not being smart feels better :P

As for whose fault, definitely the tank in this case. And don't worry about him defending his girlfriend, it's what most people would do.
Say anything and make up anything to protect their feelings.

My personal rules for DPS/Tank faults in dungeons are..
Tank is always at fault with randoms, except for...
DPS goes ham while you are still running ahead to pull more mobs.
DPS uses a heavy single target burst in huge AoE pulls. (Tank is responsible to respond to this though and get aggro back)

It's a little more complex in savage, along with NIN enmity dumps/shift as well as random or static, but that's not relevant anyway, i guess!

I never have felt the vote kick system is fair right now. Why does the person who started the kick get counted as a yes but the person being voted on isn't counted as a no?

I've seen it lead to situations where whoever starts the kick first wins. Incredibly juvenile way of handling things.

Tank is at foult no matter the situation.
an do not bring raid experience here because if you doing raid is because you know what you are doing an we all know is about teamwork.

I'm a better tank because I got yelled at early on. In coming from XI I moved from mostly dps and a sometimes tank of a DRK to a full time PLD here. If people had not pointed out errors (and were kind enough to tell me how to do better) I would be a lot worse.

Life feeds on adversity, without it stagnants.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by vigioX-Sun

Tank is at foult no matter the situation.
an do not bring raid experience here because if you doing raid is because you know what you are doing an we all know is about teamwork.

---

What? No, it's not always the tanks fault if you want to play optimally. You're right about one thing though, if you're in a raid environment, you should know what you're doing and if you do know what you're doing you shouldn't be ripping hate from a tank.

Aggro loss isn't as black and white as you want it to be. If you're overhealing, using butchers block when it would rip aggro, not using aggro mitigation cds when doing your opener etc and forcing the main tank to use powerslash/RoH more than necessary , yeah the tank won't lose aggro and should not lose aggro, but at the same time you're being terrible team members which is just as bad as the tank losing aggro. I and many other raiders who know their shit would call it out.

It's one button which is on oGCD, press it ffs lol.

Depends on the situation. Majority of the time its the Tank's fault, but there are times like when a Tank is new or undergeared where the blame can fall on the other roles, but 95% of the time its the Tank's fault.