[DEV Question] Why is this allowed?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Llus

This is actually becoming a bigger issue overall as people try to game the min-level requirements in order to spirit bond lower level HQ crafted gear or to cheat the system in order to progress through the story and get a free carry. I used to see people running dungeons spirit bonding crafting gear FFS!

---

You don't get much spiritbound points if the content is much higher than the gears. That change came somwhere in 2.x ingame.

He thinks can farm light on HW instances maybe? Is not the first time I've see it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CGMidlander

You still cleared didn't you? Gosh, stop being such an elitist.

/s

---

I'm sorry, I gotta shut this down right away.

There is nothing elitist about expecting someone to be properly prepared for content, and in a sensible manner.
Would you hire someone who came to an interview dressed to look the part, but lacking the skills/necessary knowledge to perform the job they're aiming for? If no, this is no different.

Fact is, even with all that gear, that weapon guaranteed he dealt damage well under par (also meaning that someone else had to perhaps do more to make up for it).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Would you hire someone who came to an interview dressed to look the part, but lacking the skills/necessary knowledge to perform the job they're aiming for? If no, this is no different.

---

Actually, this is completely different...in fact, it's the exact opposite. Would you hire someone having all the necessary skills/knowledge to perform the job but not dressed to look the part ?

As was stated, the individual in this example most likely had the ARR relic equipped by mistake. And while it'd be great if the game took steps to prevent mistakes like this, it's not as though this is some kind of epidemic. Incidents like this are incredibly rare - this is the first time I've ever seen something like this, and you KNOW that if it was happening a lot folks on the forums would be in a froth about it.

A much more serious issue, I think, is that the game allows jobs to equip inappropriate accessories. I suppose it's a thing so that folks learning new content can equip VIT accessories for the extra survivability - but I don't think they're often used that way. Instead, folks equip inappropriate accessories either because they're new to the game and think having diverse stats is a good thing, or they are using them to meet ilvl requirements on a secondary job without having to shell out for additional gear. Both of those situations should be discouraged.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

I'm sorry, I gotta shut this down right away.

---

See the /s at the end of the post you quoted and responded to? That stands for /sarcasm. The person you quoted does not actually believe what they wrote, and was being sarcastic.

Idk what the issue is. That guy was using a Novus weapon. He was likely light farming.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LineageRazor

A much more serious issue, I think, is that the game allows jobs to equip inappropriate accessories. I suppose it's a thing so that folks learning new content can equip VIT accessories for the extra survivability - but I don't think they're often used that way.

---

I would say they're used a reasonable amount. VIT accessories are very much a thing in PVP, for example, and in certain PVP situations INT accessories on healers could be too. I remember when I was lowmanning something or other in Coil I used a few VIT accessories on my healer in PVE. Then there's glamour, where the colour might be different for different versions (or you may not want to keep every single variant in a set where you like an earring design just to keep it glamoured across jobs). Exploiting this feature to artificially boost your item level and force others to carry you is, of course, not acceptable - but I wouldn't want to lose the underlying flexibility in a game with so little flexibility in the first place.

Simpler solution: force everyone to clear some SSS trial to prove their DPS on that job is in the right ballpark before queueing in raid finder? They can still switch to stupid gear for the actual fight but hopefully those accidents don't happen enough to be crippling.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pintsized

So I'm cheating the system' if I'm wearing 250 crafted gear in DUNGEONS?

Really?

Ok.

---

The epicness of this fail will go down in forum history. *sniggers*

The problem with changing from an average item level to some kind of weighted system or requiring a certain ilvl weapon to participate in content is: what limit do you set? Who gets to choose?

You could say that SE gets to choose, but SE chose this and you're not satisfied. There was another thread a few weeks ago where someone was saying that an i230 weapon should be required to queue for expert roulettes. I'm sure if you asked 20 different people what the requirements should be for something like this, you'd end up with 20 different and mutually-exclusive answers.

Fact of the matter is this was probably just an absentminded mistake by the player in question and not something they were doing maliciously. You also cleared the fight so it couldn't have had THAT much of an impact on you. Had you wiped due to failing a dps check, someone might have pointed this out to the guy, he'd say "woops, my bad" and fix it because he probably just didn't realize what he was doing there.

It would be nice to have a minimum ilevel required on any one gear for any non-leveling dungeon. Not to be confused with the minimum average ilevel we have right now. Example, A9 is an average ilevel of 230. Instead, have a minimum ilevel of 230 (Mhach / lore), 220 (prototype Midan) or even 200 (artifact-easily obtained through hunts and daily hunt bills) on every piece of gear.

Also, as much as I hate to say it, it would really be nice to lock the accessories to those particular classes. STR accessories to [melee] DoW, VIT to [tank] DoW, DEX to ['agile'] DoW, INT to [caster] DoM, and MND to [healer] DoM. This might be annoying to those spiritbonding (which I haven't seen done in eons currently), and may even limit options for glamour and PvP. It's worth it. The game isn't balanced around PvP nor how pretty you look. There are better ways to spiritbond rather than through dungeons, too. If you're lacking HP for PvE, like for raids, you have VIT melding as well as the option to move around main stat points.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lan_Mantear

Idk what the issue is. That guy was using a Novus weapon. He was likely light farming.

---

Nothing 3.0 gives light for 2.0 anymore than 2.0 gives light for 3.0. For 2.0 light farming, you are regulated to farming 2.X content for light. For 3.0, you're regulated to 3.X light farming.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JunseiKei

STR accessories to [melee] DoW, VIT to [tank] DoW, DEX to ['agile'] DoW, INT to [caster] DoM, and MND to [healer] DoM. This might be annoying to those spiritbonding (which I haven't seen done in eons currently), and may even limit options for glamour and PvP. It's worth it. The game isn't balanced around PvP nor how pretty you look.

---

I strongly disagree. Throwing the ability to customise our builds in PVP (and to a lesser extent in very specific PVE/glamour situations) aside just to cater to a handful of people playing with the wrong accessories feels like a bad trade. How often does it happen? I've never noticed anyone doing it whereas I've used the 'wrong' accessories for perfectly legitimate, non-ilvl-cheating reasons numerous times. Though most content is so easy that I genuinely wouldn't notice someone being carried (a separate issue...)

I see it a different way if you're able too clear it at a decent pace still with a blm using that weapon and have decent gear it shows to me dungeon are really just that simple. It would have been more fun to see if a healer was doing this however, but if blm was using 230+ maybe shave off a couple minutes.

Hi people, sorry but my computer seems broken and my eyes too, I'm sure I was reading of a topic about someone complaining he was able to end a duty.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LalaRu

Hi people, sorry but my computer seems broken and my eyes too, I'm sure I was reading of a topic about someone complaining he was able to end a duty.

---

No your PC and your eyes are broken, might want to get that stuff checked out yikes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Serilda

I strongly disagree. Throwing the ability to customise our builds in PVP (and to a lesser extent in very specific PVE/glamour situations) aside just to cater to a handful of people playing with the wrong accessories feels like a bad trade. How often does it happen? I've never noticed anyone doing it whereas I've used the 'wrong' accessories for perfectly legitimate, non-ilvl-cheating reasons numerous times. Though most content is so easy that I genuinely wouldn't notice someone being carried (a separate issue...)

---

Unfortunately, there's nothing stopping other players from facilitating artificial item level bloating. You either have players check and kick (which creates other issues) or implement something like this to enforce it.

I'm also not just thinking about queuing into dungeons. I know of so many [actual good] players purposely equip wrong accessories to get around a PF's ilevel restriction to bring in a certain class. (Might main ninja, but there's already a ninja and doesn't want to deal with coordinating trick or other things, had decent gear on a dragoon and can play dragoon, but not up to the ilevel). Most people will not check players (or calculate their ilevel) once they are actually in the party and have reverted back to correct gear. The issue starts when you have not-so-great players using this same trick and it snowballs when wipes start happening because multiple people start doing it. Now you just end up with a bunch of wasted time. Time in PF (or queuing), time it took to get to said trouble spots, multiple wipes (usually- very few are just single time hiccups), removal of players and disbands. Many people that do this do it to scrape by, hopefully unnoticed.

This all very much falls back into a lack of respect for everyone's time and many people that scrape by simply don't care in the first place.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LalaRu

Hi people, sorry but my computer seems broken and my eyes too, I'm sure I was reading of a topic about someone complaining he was able to end a duty.

---

If it had been a tank or healer, the run would not have been successful. That is the problem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miste

Just an FYI if a tank did what this BLM did, he would be completely unable to do his main role of holding hate.

---

ACTUALLY.... I did this accidentally while I was working on my Bravura Novus last year. A dps pulled after I ready checked but before I swapped my weapon out. I was still able to take Sophia back and hold hate the entire fight. So, it's possible for a competent and otherwise well geared tank to hold threat.

Is it optimal and should it be done? Absolutely not. But it is possible.

It requires AVERAGE ilvl not actual. And at the end of the day who cares that is the easiest of the Alex runs let the guy have his fun. As long as it did not hinder your enjoyment or cause a wipe let them be.

I wasn't aware that cleared and carried were one in the same. o:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Callinon

The problem with changing from an average item level to some kind of weighted system or requiring a certain ilvl weapon to participate in content is: what limit do you set? Who gets to choose?You could say that SE gets to choose, but SE chose this and you're not satisfied. There was another thread a few weeks ago where someone was saying that an i230 weapon should be required to queue for expert roulettes. I'm sure if you asked 20 different people what the requirements should be for something like this, you'd end up with 20 different and mutually-exclusive answers.

Fact of the matter is this was probably just an absentminded mistake by the player in question and not something they were doing maliciously. You also cleared the fight so it couldn't have had THAT much of an impact on you. Had you wiped due to failing a dps check, someone might have pointed this out to the guy, he'd say "woops, my bad" and fix it because he probably just didn't realize what he was doing there.

---

It should be a weighed system for figuring out the true average. If SE says you need 230 to enter something you NEED 230+ weapon. The people that decide the weighs are the same people that give a min entry to begin with.

I queue for Dusk Vigil. I'm leveling my DRG. I saved a week or two of Poetics to get the best gear I could get knowing I would likely use it right up to lvl 55 or so. I see a MCH in the party. Lvl 90 relic. A very unhealthy amount of pink aetherial gear from Aurum Vale or wherever you get lvl 49 stuff from. We attempt to kill the first three mobs. I leave without saying anything and take the penalty. Just no.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

It should be a weighed system for figuring out the true average. If SE says you need 230 to enter something you NEED 230+ weapon. The people that decide the weighs are the same people that give a min entry to begin with.

---

Largely that's the duty finder doing that. So again you're asking for an automated system different than the automated system we currently have.

You also used the terms "weighted system" and "true average" in the same sentence. The system right now finds the true average as determined by math. Seriously, you can do the math yourself, you'll get the same number the game does. You're asking for different slots to be weighted differently, so you're no longer asking for a true average, you're asking for a weighted average.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Callinon

Largely that's the duty finder doing that. So again you're asking for an automated system different than the automated system we currently have.

You also used the terms "weighted system" and "true average" in the same sentence. The system right now finds the true average as determined by math. Seriously, you can do the math yourself, you'll get the same number the game does. You're asking for different slots to be weighted differently, so you're no longer asking for a true average, you're asking for a weighted average.

---

No you do not. The gear is weighed differently stat wise, your true average should reflect this. I do not appreciate the semantics, as it should be clear what I mean, and I hope it does now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OpheliaHeartilly

I queue for Dusk Vigil. I'm leveling my DRG. I saved a week or two of Poetics to get the best gear I could get knowing I would likely use it right up to lvl 55 or so. I see a MCH in the party. Lvl 90 relic. A very unhealthy amount of pink aetherial gear from Aurum Vale or wherever you get lvl 49 stuff from. We attempt to kill the first three mobs. I leave without saying anything and take the penalty. Just no.

---

That's actually fine. Like you said, i130 lasts into The Aery- the stuff you get from there is better, but if need be, you could easily use it into The Vault or Gubal. To put it into perspective, my Dreadwyrm healing coat (not replica) is 3 vit higher and 6 mind lower than the NQ healing coat you can buy in Idyllshire. Leveling dungeons, like Dusk Vigil, are far more lenient. It just really comes down to if people use their skills correctly.

This is the system the devs have designed and decided was a good setting for Duty Finder. I don't see any reason we should change it and ask for unreasonable additional restrictions.

yeah on some of my A1S farms for anima lights I would run into trolls doing the weapon thing XD the weapon should be made to be the minimum ilvl aside from the overall Ilvl. Honestly idk how to fix it, but it needs to be addressed, specially in a game were the weapons "weight" is so considerable to a characters overall potency.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

This is the system the devs have designed and decided was a good setting for Duty Finder. I don't see any reason we should change it and ask for unreasonable additional restrictions.

---

The issue comes into play with how stats weigh into your overall strength. And sadly WD is the highest weighed stat in the game in regards to how it affects you characters potency, it is a considerable detriment to your own damage (and by consequence the party's damage) when you enter something like a lvl 60 raid with a weapon that is ilvl 130. I used my anima all the way to 60 to be honest, but I sure as hell upgraded before i did things like fractal and Neverreap, and even then the weapon weakness was starting to show. (ran alot of the dungons just once and with friends so we were all kinda on the same boat unless someone got lucky with a drop beforehand.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gumbercules

specially in a game were the weapons "weight" is so considerable to a characters overall potency.

---

Yeah, this actually irked me the most. Putting on an i110 weapon, I had nearly half the heals I should have. Means that person had [approximately] half the DPS they should have. Made me cringe so hard.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JunseiKei

Yeah, this actually irked me the most. Putting on an i110 weapon, I had nearly half the heals I should have. Means that person had [approximately] half the DPS they should have. Made me cringe so hard.

---

yeah, pretty much. They become at most a "twink" of the weapons intended lvl from the other stats but still nothing more than a "beefier lvl 50 with a 110 weapon, doing lvl 60 content". Admittedly the game does little to push this point across though, and only ppl that have been active with some manner of end-game will even know the weapons weight relevance. SE really does need to fix the weapons ilvl value in regards to determining "entry" into content.

Yikes, people are actually defending missing around 30 weapon damage and 80-90 main stat compared to a i230 dps weapon. I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

No you do not. The gear is weighed differently stat wise, your true average should reflect this. I do not appreciate the semantics, as it should be clear what I mean, and I hope it does now.

---

Whether you appreciate it or not, words have meanings and you should use the right ones if you want to communicate effectively and be understood.

You've also decided that math just isn't quite good enough to do this job, so something else is going to have to do it. Never mind the fact that the existing system works fine and produces successful parties (including the one in the OP) far FAR more often than it doesn't.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JunseiKei

Unfortunately, there's nothing stopping other players from facilitating artificial item level bloating. You either have players check and kick (which creates other issues) or implement something like this to enforce it.

---

It feels like such a shame to punish everyone for the actions of a few when so little of the game actually lets you play around with stats in the first place. At some point why even have gear at all? We could just have one stat which goes up automatically with our level and turn everything else into skill or glamour (which it already is in many ways). Bad players will always find new ways to be jerks to their groups and I'd rather find a solution which doesn't dumb the system down even further. Recalculating minimum entry requirements another way is far more agreeable to me and doesn't screw up PVP or simply having fun.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vaer

Yikes, people are actually defending missing around 30 weapon damage and 80-90 main stat compared to a i230 dps weapon. I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

---

"oh look the tank its missing 30 WD, that's ok that's just like if he were missing like 750 ish str or vit, no big <.<" (not to mention the actual loss of vit in regards to HP :P)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Callinon

Whether you appreciate it or not, words have meanings and you should use the right ones if you want to communicate effectively and be understood.

You've also decided that math just isn't quite good enough to do this job, so something else is going to have to do it. Never mind the fact that the existing system works fine and produces successful parties (including the one in the OP) far FAR more often than it doesn't.

---

Guess i can get behind this position, since even in my example it was literally a 1 in 50 occurrence. Probably why SE hasn't changed it since it could potentially over-reach and affect alot more ppl than it helps.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Serilda

It feels like such a shame to punish everyone for the actions of a few when so little of the game actually lets you play around with stats in the first place. At some point why even have gear at all? We could just have one stat which goes up automatically with our level and turn everything else into skill or glamour (which it already is in many ways). Bad players will always find new ways to be jerks to their groups and I'd rather find a solution which doesn't dumb the system down even further. Recalculating minimum entry requirements another way is far more agreeable to me and doesn't screw up PVP or simply having fun.

---

It's not a feels like a shame. It is a shame. People prove time and again why we can't have nice things.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vaer

Yikes, people are actually defending missing around 30 weapon damage and 80-90 main stat compared to a i230 dps weapon. I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

---

It's very clear.

I must go on a crusade in Alexander Normal with my Gae Bolg Zenith from years past.

/s

I ran into a BLM with i145 staff and i250 gear on in xelphetol the other day when I was on my alt with i250 spear - I told them to get a better weapon. Even if you are terrible a weapon upgrade helps your dps tremendously.

SE really should put a minimum gear piece iLVL requirement in too, average just doesn't work as well as it's intended. It doesn't have to be crazy but 20-30 iLVLs should be fine imo. You should not be doing creator with a ravana weapon, you are just lazy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Callinon

Whether you appreciate it or not, words have meanings and you should use the right ones if you want to communicate effectively and be understood.

You've also decided that math just isn't quite good enough to do this job, so something else is going to have to do it. Never mind the fact that the existing system works fine and produces successful parties (including the one in the OP) far FAR more often than it doesn't.

---

Your post makes no sense, you are actually implying we should not have any minimum requirements. Guess what? weighting them is also math, what you seem to be missing is that going from a 250 > 270 ring is the same as 250 >270 weapon just because the game does the aveerage that way. It does not, each slot is weighted differently and this should be reflected in the gear average itself. It is reflected in tome prices and material cost, so it is absurd and makes no sense it is not reflected in gear average.

each slot should be weighed, each slot is not an equal increase. Way you are talking makes me feel you do not even understand how weighing works, it will look like this:

Current:
weapon 255
head 260
body 260
hands 260
belt 270
legs 270
feet 260
earring 270
neck 260
brace 270
ring 260
ring 270

3165/12 = 263 like it says in game but this is not a true average on how the different slots are weighted differently in stat giving and improvements. Now if we take my suggested weights earlier we get:

weapon 255 x10 = 2550
head 260 x3 = 780
body 260 x5 = 1300
hands 260 x 3 = 780
belt 270 x 1 = 270
legs 270 x 5 = 1350
feet 260 x 3 = 780
earring 270 x 1 = 270
neck 260 x 1 = 260
brace 270 x 1 = 270
ring 260 x 1 = 260
ring 270 x 1 = 270

9140 / 35 = 261

because of my weapon it pulled my average down then what the game says, and with good reason to do so. This will prevent all the complaints presented in this thread, like padding the right to pass an ilevel check with wrong stats.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by enthauptet

I ran into a BLM with i145 staff and i250 gear on in xelphetol the other day when I was on my alt with i250 spear - I told them to get a better weapon. Even if you are terrible a weapon upgrade helps your dps tremendously.

SE really should put a minimum gear piece iLVL requirement in too, average just doesn't work as well as it's intended. It doesn't have to be crazy but 20-30 iLVLs should be fine imo. You should not be doing creator with a ravana weapon, you are just lazy.

---

lets see if my weights lets this person to enter there, requirement is 210

145 x 10 = 1450
everything else = 25 x 250 =6250
7700/35 =220... welp.. it is a work in progress but the current system clearly doesn't work. Also ALL <<<<< DFs need a minimum , even if it is like sastaha level 8 average, etc. The level 50s that cap at 110 should need level 70 or something because i gotta say, having someone with 90 left, a 45 nq weapon and 20-40 level per right was unbearable. carrying people so much to the point it is like 3 people, not 4 is old. I always hated the way this games handles such situations but didn't find the need to be outspoken about it, till this thread.

Making a system that makes rush levelers take 5 minutes to gear themselves in a somewhat respectable manner is not asking much.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

snip

---

I'm not implying we shouldn't have requirements for entry into various duties. We have that right now.

But let's use your example here, even though I think your weights are a little off based on the actual value of individual pieces of gear.

I used all those numbers and switched the weapon to i90. It gave me a result of: 214

So you'd be ok with someone carrying around an i90 weapon in, say... Weeping City? That'd be ok? I suspect it would not be ok and the same people in this thread who think that averaging item levels to figure out a basic gear level doesn't work would be saying the same thing.

You're looking for a programmed solution to this and there really isn't one that isn't horribly unfair. There isn't always an algorithmic way around everything. The BLM referenced in the OP is probably just making an absentminded mistake. But even if he was trying to be a troll and use a broom to kill A9, you're not going to stop him like this. People who want to waste your time are going to find a way to do it and all you're doing is creating roadblocks that both don't need to exist AND won't solve your problem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

3165/12 = 263 like it says in game

---

For jobs without an offhand, the main hand counts twice. iLvl calculation is always X/13