Anyone disappointed with the new Red Mage asthetics?

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Originally Posted by Gemina

The only reason I slightly dislike it is because I was hoping RDM would have the traditional 'hand on small of back' stance fencers use. But I realize they need something to cast with. Every caster (and that is part of what RDM is) channels their magic either from or through some aether enhanced object be it metal, stone/bone, plant, enchanted ink or combination thereof.

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An option would have been having the jewel as part of the hilt or pommel of the rapier. If something needed to be held in the offhand, the alternative would be a small scepter used to cast weaker spells and that combines for bigger spells. Of course, I could argue that RDM is not a master mage and wouldn't really need a pseudo staff to cast big spells, since they'd know basic magic but nothing big and flashy. This was the case since the first FF, even if turn-based RPG limitations forced SE to give RDM gimmicks to make them stand out (Double Cast, Arcane Magick, Forbidden Magic, Refresh).

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Having simply a sword with magical properties would be interesting but the sword/staff trick weapon appeals to several types of casters who prefer the more traditional staff/rod/wand weaponry for mages. Give it a chance.

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The thing with this is that if people want a mage with a staff, BLM and WHM already exist. It makes the "need" for yet another staff-that's-not-really-a-staff misguided at best, a waste at worst. It's very questionable from an aesthetics perspective, even if their going with a trick weapon can be lauded as clever.

Red Mage
Red Mage
Red Mage
Red Mage

I like the look of the red mage and the weapon and the combat for it looks interesting.

The only thing I'm on the fence about is it starting at 50 instead of thirty. And that's not because of people not having a lot of time in 20 lvls to get use to all the skills but because you only get 10 quests for an interesting job story and background on said job. Granted starting at 30 would only add another 4 quests but that can be the diffrence between a quest line feeling rushed and disjointed or people clicking with the job and enjoying it. But this isn't about lvl start or storyline so back on topic

So like I said I like the look thus far and hope they go back to giving the artifact looking gear at the end of the job quests like they did in ARR and not have it be tomestone gear that u can miss out on like in heavensward

I love the aesthetic they have gone with.

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Originally Posted by Krystalmethot

you only get 10 quests for an interesting job story and background on said job.

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I think this is a valid point, but if they can integrate the job story and themes into the main quest more it would help a lot. One of my friends only plays one job and he's missing a whole load of really interesting lore about HW and the game's world because he has no idea that it's stuffed into various job quests he's never seen; to him the Domans and Au Ra have almost zero relevance along with a lot of pretty decent side characters. I would prefer it if the job trainers can sometimes have relevance to the main story too; I know it then becomes hard if the writers want to kill them off but it would help connect everything together.

And 100x yes to the suggestion of having the AF-style gear be more meaningful this time (JSE is a lot less of a burden if it can go in the armoire too...)

It looks like the floating crystal should hopefully look aesthetically the same as the sword, unlike MCH silverpack ... hopefully.

Otherwise, I'm sure they can have a /crystaloff option if enough people ask for it

I love the aesthetic, I think it looks cool af.

It's the possibility it might start at level 50 that proper triggers me.

(I would have liked sword main hand, crystal off hand, but whatever not a big deal)

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Originally Posted by myahele

It looks like the floating crystal should hopefully look aesthetically the same as the sword, unlike MCH silverpack ... hopefully.

Otherwise, I'm sure they can have a /crystaloff option if enough people ask for it

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Crystal and sword are 1 item, designed together so they can fit together, and match each other.

It would look wierd to have this robust sword in one hand and a floating chocobo in the other hand, and then having to squeeze them together for magical attacks.

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Originally Posted by Krystalmethot

The only thing I'm on the fence about is it starting at 50 instead of thirty. And that's not because of people not having a lot of time in 20 lvls to get use to all the skills but because you only get 10 quests for an interesting job story and background on said job. Granted starting at 30 would only add another 4 quests but that can be the diffrence between a quest line feeling rushed and disjointed or people clicking with the job and enjoying it. But this isn't about lvl start or storyline so back on topic

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So a little fun: 30-50 is 5 quests, while 50-60 is 6 quests. Because we got two at lvl 50 that means each Job gets 11 quests. We will most likely get another 6 quests for 60-70 since they will probably have a second lvl 60 quest to start of the Stormblood portion of it.

Job wise while RDM and the second job would still have less overall starting from 50 they would still have plenty of time to get that story and background fitted in.

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

So a little fun: 30-50 is 5 quests, while 50-60 is 6 quests. Because we got two at lvl 50 that means each Job gets 11 quests. We will most likely get another 6 quests for 60-70 since they will probably have a second lvl 60 quest to start of the Stormblood portion of it.

Job wise while RDM and the second job would still have less overall starting from 50 they would still have plenty of time to get that story and background fitted in.

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yes this is true, however they described red magic as being both white and black mixed I think, so technically you got background from 2 classes?

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Originally Posted by Krystalmethot

I like the look of the red mage and the weapon and the combat for it looks interesting.
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So like I said I like the look thus far and hope they go back to giving the artifact looking gear at the end of the job quests like they did in ARR and not have it be tomestone gear that u can miss out on like in heavensward

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Very true, but I think the proper design for the class since it will only have 10 quests would be to write the entire fleshed out story, and find ways to properly pace them throughout the 10 quests, even if it means each quest would be longer than usual. That way, the story can be just as compelling as the rest, and not leave you wanting more.

So far, the writing and design teams have been able to tell good stories, and I'm sure a feat like this can be accomplished. I would be disappointed if they didn't though.

I dunno, it just sorta looks like a BRD traded in their bow for a sword (and yet still isn't a melee). All the flamboyancy and nancying included lmao. Personally, not a big fan of the look, but it's purely a personal preference (and I'm sure I'm about to hear a dozen people say "no, your opinion is wrong because reasons." because twelve forbid anyone have a different opinion, XD). I was kinda hoping they'd make it look more badass and less... french musketeer? And no, I don't care if it's the "traditional" look for the Job, that's not going to make me like it all of a sudden.

I do think it's interesting overall, but not something that I'll be changing my main for.

Red mage is a Mage, indeed. As is, it is a Ranged Caster. Also, wields a rapier capable of turning into a Staff. So, I guess is a very smart move. Getting 2 wepaons in one. About the suit, it is the standard Red mage cloth, so I'm ok with that.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

The thing with this is that if people want a mage with a staff, BLM and WHM already exist. It makes the "need" for yet another staff-that's-not-really-a-staff misguided at best, a waste at worst. It's very questionable from an aesthetics perspective, even if their going with a trick weapon can be lauded as clever.

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Having seen the alternatives to staves (Book and Astroglobe) I am quite happy to stick to staves. Red Mage traditionally wears a sword, but it is also part of that Trinity of Mages which are the core of the franchise fantasy. Seeing a sword that can work as a staff as well appeals to me, because it makes the job seem more like a peer to White Mage and Black Mage, rather than a watered-down wannabe mage.

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Originally Posted by Vexander

Having seen the alternatives to staves (Book and Astroglobe) I am quite happy to stick to staves. Red Mage traditionally wears a sword, but it is also part of that Trinity of Mages which are the core of the franchise fantasy. Seeing a sword that can work as a staff as well appeals to me, because it makes the job seem more like a peer to White Mage and Black Mage, rather than a watered-down wannabe mage.

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At that point you're not asking for a Red Mage, but simply another caster. RDM is supposed to be a hybrid, and that entails weaker attack and healing magic to compensate for their being hardier than your average mage and better at melee combat than same. This means you're trading overall magic power for melee proficiency, which has been core to the job since the first FF.

Why worry about the looks? This game is so full of glamor, finding a suitable set for your preferences will be cake. Even on bard, which is my second job, I'm not a fan of the "frilly" armor, but I'm totally satisfied with some of the sets that have come out.

No, I don't like the pseudo-staff thing. Armor look can be fixable to an extent with glamour.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

At that point you're not asking for a Red Mage, but simply another caster. RDM is supposed to be a hybrid, and that entails weaker attack and healing magic to compensate for their being hardier than your average mage and better at melee combat than same. This means you're trading overall magic power for melee proficiency, which has been core to the job since the first FF.

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You do realize Red Mages can equip more than just swords in almost every single game they appear in, right?

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Originally Posted by Duelle

At that point you're not asking for a Red Mage, but simply another caster. RDM is supposed to be a hybrid, and that entails weaker attack and healing magic to compensate for their being hardier than your average mage and better at melee combat than same. This means you're trading overall magic power for melee proficiency, which has been core to the job since the first FF.

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Which will not work in FF14, so I dunno why you expected different tbh...

It has to be able to fufil one of the very specific role's otherwise the class is pointless. If it's a melee then why do we have yet another melee class and still only two magic users?

Making it a caster is the most logical route compared to just "coz". Being "hardy" means absolutley nothing just ask any DRG main. There is zero mistaking what the job is, it's not like SMN where you wouldn't be able to tell from looking at them.

I like that they have their cape, helps them feel like a true RDM (where as DRG still doesnt feel right to me, as each AF keeps getting weird alterations, and doesnt have its cape., same with DRK not feeling like DRK, as their AF went to DRG.)
But I dont care for the RDM pants, just feels off. (Probably because RDM doesnt usually have just bright red pants, but some other colors in there usually)

I also wished the body had some shoulder pads, to help make it stand out from typical mages. (Though not every RDM job in FFs had shoulder pads, I still feel it helps distinguish them in a game where many jobs have feathered hats like them.)

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Originally Posted by Underdog2204

Which will not work in FF14, so I dunno why you expected different tbh...

It has to be able to fufil one of the very specific role's otherwise the class is pointless. If it's a melee then why do we have yet another melee class and still only two magic users?

Making it a caster is the most logical route compared to just "coz". Being "hardy" means absolutley nothing just ask any DRG main.

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I agree with it being considered a Deciple of Magic class, but for its role, there is a role which can do all of those things he mentioned... Which is why people kept saying it, and everyoen thought they were crazy for suggesting it. (It's tank. Does less dmg than a DPS, does less healing than a healer, has buff spells, and just needs an enhancement to give threat, or more dmg on their sword/spells. It would then play identical to a RDM pretty much.)


SIDE NOTE: I friggin LOVE the cast animation, mixing the sword and crystal. I had NO intention of playing RDM if it wasnt equally melee focused as caster focus, or if it didnt have the ability to change its role.
When I heard it was a ranged Caster DPS, I was like, well, Im not playing this job. Then the animations alone made me change my mind. I'll be playing a DPS for once in this game! (I hate DPSing though, its so boring, I hope its fun enough on RDM, w/o trying to just be tedious, thinking that prevents boredom, because im one of the people that falls asleep to tedium.)

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Originally Posted by Duelle

At that point you're not asking for a Red Mage, but simply another caster. RDM is supposed to be a hybrid, and that entails weaker attack and healing magic to compensate for their being hardier than your average mage and better at melee combat than same. This means you're trading overall magic power for melee proficiency, which has been core to the job since the first FF.

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FFXIV's Red Mage, however, will be a Ranged DPS, excelling at DPS primarily, and incorporating melee attacks in the course of its rotation. So, that's what FFXIV gives us, and I am happy to accept that. Red Mages from other games simply don't work with the battle system we have. Otherwise, I would agree with you. Either way, I find the sword and crystal combination appealing. Personal preference is all.

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Originally Posted by Felis

Melee/Range hybrid, magic for range attacks and rapier for melee attacks.
The melee attack seem to be the combo finisher.

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get ready to be animation locked in finisher lol. "Oh you wanna do your melee finisher? heres a fat PBAOE for ya"

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

I like that they have their cape

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If only this game could do player capes right...

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Originally Posted by Adachi452

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No, I am not. So far so good from the little I have seen from the trailer.

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Originally Posted by GMERC

You do realize Red Mages can equip more than just swords in almost every single game they appear in, right?

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I am, but their primary arm in pretty much every representation of the job has been the sword (not counting the staff seen in FFTA's artwork for the job, which is a misrepresentation since the job uses rapiers rather than staves).

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Originally Posted by Underdog2204

Which will not work in FF14, so I dunno why you expected different tbh...

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A true hybrid? You're right, that won't work in FFXIV, as has been explained and argued by several here aside from myself.

I'm actually well aware of the changes and concessions needed for RDM to work. You have to lean less towards overall mediocrity (see: RDM in FFIII, FFV, FFXI) and pick a role that thematically works for the job while keeping the things that are core to the job: sword, attack magic, curative magic.

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It has to be able to fufil one of the very specific role's otherwise the class is pointless. If it's a melee then why do we have yet another melee class and still only two magic users?

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The class parity argument is a poor one, at best. There's no rule that says we absolutely must have X number of casters and Y number of melee.

If you want ranged casters, I can give you some suggestions: Geomancer, Mystic, Necromancer, Blue Mage and Sage. Let's not act like there were no alternatives for a ranged caster to the point RDM had to be shoehorned into that category, because we still have plenty of jobs to draw from.

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Making it a caster is the most logical route compared to just "coz". Being "hardy" means absolutley nothing just ask any DRG main. There is zero mistaking what the job is, it's not like SMN where you wouldn't be able to tell from looking at them.

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Making it a caster is not the "most logical route", because it ignores the melee side of the job. As of right now, based on the keynotes and the video shown, swordplay seems secondary and an afterthought to RDM, like an element that was grudgingly added to try to avoid people calling out SE for making the job iconoclastic a second time; the fact they tried to focus on their "fast positioning" gimmick further supports this.

The logical route was to make the melee and magic sides of the job mesh in front-line combat. There's a reason I mentioned I expected something like melee weaponskills => spell combos, the Art of War mechanic, melee combos affecting spells somehow and so on. That gives you enough breathing room to not only give the job stylish melee abilities, but also seamlessly blend magic into their combat style. Best part being that you wouldn't need to make up a BS gimmick like "fast positioning" to pull that off AND would still be able to give them limited ranged options (since that is something that is par for the course with magic).

Now, you could say "well, that might still happen since the video didn't show us all the job's skills", at which point I would ask, "then why the hell didn't they focus on that?".

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Originally Posted by Vexander

FFXIV's Red Mage, however, will be a Ranged DPS, excelling at DPS primarily, and incorporating melee attacks in the course of its rotation. So, that's what FFXIV gives us, and I am happy to accept that. Red Mages from other games simply don't work with the battle system we have.

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I wouldn't expect a carbon copy of the console FF version of RDM, but I would use that as a foundation and adjust the job to work in an MMO. This is why I've pointed to how hybrids work in other recent MMOs and said "look at how these guys are doing it and learn from them" since beta. I don't think this would irk me as much if the fast positioning thing was not such a blatantly contrived gimmick. I can't even, in good conscience, call it a valid gameplay mechanic. It'd be like if I designed a job with gameplay that revolved around pressing the space bar.

I lost all interest in RDM when they revealed that it is going to be a full caster and not a melee / caster hybrid.

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Originally Posted by SilkaN

I lost all interest in RDM when they revealed that it is going to be a full caster and not a melee / caster hybrid.

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Do I have to lost interest to BLM when it is going to full fire mage but not a ice/fire mage? ^^;

Just think for exmaple ppl will laugh at melee RDM if it is "real" hybrid...

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Originally Posted by Nicobo

Do I have to lost interest to BLM when it is going to full fire mage but not a ice/fire mage? ^^;

Just think for exmaple ppl will laugh at melee RDM if it is "real" hybrid...

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Well, it doesn't really matter from an aesthetic standpoint, since you will be glued to one place and gun everything down as a BLM anyway.
In RDM's case it's different, I expected them to be a full hybrid, spending some time in melee range, then spending some time in caster range and so on. But no, they are a wannabe BLM (which actually fits the job lol) who dives into melee range for a few seconds, only to back out again.
Well, we at least expect RDM to play like this, given the limited information and footage we have.

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Originally Posted by SilkaN

they are a wannabe BLM (which actually fits the job lol) who dives into melee range for a few seconds, only to back out again.

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Sounds perfect to me. When RDM was teased I was worried they'd ruin it by making it a job that plays mostly melee (or even worse, all melee). This is much truer to how I feel the job should be, rather than someone who futzes about in melee range occasionally firing off point blank magic attacks between a mostly physical skillset.

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Originally Posted by GMERC

Sounds perfect to me. When RDM was teased I was worried they'd ruin it by making it a job that plays mostly melee (or even worse, all melee). This is much truer to how I feel the job should be, rather than someone who futzes about in melee range occasionally firing off point blank magic attacks between a mostly physical skillset.

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unless distance affects dmg otherwise you can be always in melee range....
it reminds me at the first place MNK shoulder tackle was a range attack that cannot be executed in melee range.
maybe rdm magic will work like this...

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Originally Posted by Nicobo

unless distance affects dmg otherwise you can be always in melee range....
it reminds me at the first place MNK shoulder tackle was a range attack that cannot be executed in melee range.
maybe rdm magic will work like this...

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They're not going to be so stupid as to have "optimal" play for RDM be at melee range 24/7. They're just not. Something about the job's design will without a doubt prevent such meme strategies, as the whole point is positioning.

I can't imagine the MNK change was intended to suggest that minimum ranges were something they never wanted to do ever again (Repelling Shot and Blank say hi), but was probably a change intended to stop Monks from moving away from their target just to force Shoulder Tackle into their rotations.

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Originally Posted by SilkaN

But no, they are a wannabe BLM (which actually fits the job lol)

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I could argue that this only "works" in console FFs because of the limitations of turn-based combat. There's not much room for gameplay that mixes elements of a hybrid because you're limited by how turns are structured (read: you aim to use turns efficiently and try to get the most bang for your buck per action, which in the case of RDM means using spells, especially if you take into account how their stats scale in the console FFs).

I think rdm looks interesting from the little I've seen. So far the way it attacks and casts seems good to me. I hope we get raise on rdm lol

I'm just curious to see if they'll do something interesting with it or disappoint long-time FF fans. RDM is supposed to be a jack of all trades capable of conjuring basic black and white magic as well as dealing melee damage (I don't remember the specifics, but I suppose that aspect plays with elements?). So either they'll follow that standard and provide a multi-use DPS who can heal better than SMN, or they'll slap exclusively DPS skills to satisfy strict role descriptions. I suppose the latter would be ideal for people who don't know RDM as well as those who played FFXI, or III, or any other FF where the job is more evident, but this is their chance to do something interesting with the class system. The changes they plan to implement with 4.0 could play really well with this...

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Originally Posted by SeriousxSarcasm

I was kinda hoping they'd make it look more badass and less... french musketeer? And no, I don't care if it's the "traditional" look for the Job, that's not going to make me like it all of a sudden.

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It is classic Red Mage AF. You can glamour over it or wear something else if you don't like it

http://oi67.tinypic.com/wwdp49.jpg

I don't like the traditional look

It's the traditional look

ok

and you?

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Originally Posted by caelumsixsmith

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IMO that's a very bad idea, MMOs are about optimization and classes that are not good at a specific role (tank/dps/heal) ended with no place at groups or devs give something to that class that become mandatory. Most MMO's I played that at some point toyed with the idea of support classes ended reworking them.

Anyway, they can keep the indentity of the class:

- A self heal using white magic.
- Some DPS skills are melee and some use black magic spells.

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Originally Posted by caelumsixsmith

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They've already said that RDMs will be purely dps. Hybrid healer/dps jobs don't work in the FFXIV formula. They've played on the descriptive words the red mage in order for it to comply with the game.

Red mages use black and white magic in battle -> Red mages use a fusion of black and white magic in battle, called red magic.

The closest i can imagine is that they'll cross class with CNJ and have access to cleric stance and cure. They'd be able to use cleric stance backwards and be able to cure spam in emergencies.

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Originally Posted by Averax

The closest i can imagine is that they'll cross class with CNJ and have access to cleric stance and cure. They'd be able to use cleric stance backwards and be able to cure spam in emergencies.

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party leader: "Healer, more DPS. RDM, more heal" ^^

I was expecting a different outfit, something like one of the tank design contest for example

http://www.finalfantasyxiv.com/GearD...h9ot1p/031.jpg

but I'm not very familiar with the job so my bad.
On the other I'm pretty curios about the gameplay, we haven't seen very much but I hope it will be balanced between melee and cast :)

Still going to have to see what all it brings. This I wait for. I am expecting more sword skills involved between casting periods.

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Originally Posted by Celef

I was expecting a different outfit, something like one of the tank design contest for example

http://www.finalfantasyxiv.com/GearD...h9ot1p/031.jpg

but I'm not very familiar with the job so my bad.
On the other I'm pretty curios about the gameplay, we haven't seen very much but I hope it will be balanced between melee and cast :)

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That outfit looks like a great 60/70 outfit after receiving the initial AF as currently designed.

As for RDM's and white magic, I hope that leans more towards light elemental damage spells like Dia, unused elements like water (part of conjury), and self buffs like Refresh (each dps mage has an mp recovery mechanic Umbral Ice/Aetherflow) or Aspir/Drain and Phalanx, and not mostly unused healing spells clogging up my hot bar. I'd love it if we got a group utility buff/debuff like drg/nin as well.