Stop queuing for PotD if you don't intend to DPS at all.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

This is not about someone not being a team player this is more about someone maybe believing they are there to heal, because they are a healer and despite people only valuing dps, the game does still need healers.

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It absolutely is about being a team player. No fight in this game requires a healer who is only there to heal, and believing that is simply false. And since that is not needed - just like joining a fight as BRD to only sing and not do any DPS because they believe they are there to sing and only that - doing that means being a bad team player. However, it's a different matter when someone is trying and learning to be a good team player by playing their job optimally, but they still need more practice and experience of the fight. What people are opposed to is someone intentionally refusing to use their helpful abilities to support their team because of their personal beliefs or whatever.

Again you are being selective about who should play on the game. Really, if you dont like other people who dont follow your 'rules' . Then go play something that doesnt have other people on it. I had aguy tell me I was overhealing yesterday in a10s, so what? Am I sopposed to be kicked out the game for that? People who continually finding fault with others playing are ruining the game for people that just want to have fun, and mostly, those that dont moan about other players are more fun to play with, so go play a game that goes round exterminating people ,you may enjoy it more (npcs ofc.) How about grand theft?

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Originally Posted by Feyona

This is not about someone not being a team player this is more about someone maybe believing they are there to heal, because they are a healer and despite people only valuing dps, the game does still need healers. And some dont even know how to stance dance, they may be still learning the game. Your view does not allow for this.

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The part that you seem to be missing is that idle healers are a detriment to the party. What they believe doesn't matter.

Time and again, we (collectively, as proponents of active and engaged healer gameplay) have expressly stated that players who are learning how to play healers and/or are learning specific encounters or mechanics are not reasonably expected to stance-dance like pros from the start. Likewise, players who are in the position of having to use more healing actions due to issues with the party and/or an unusually high healing requirement are not expected to DPS to the detriment of healing. This expectation to contribute fully applies to players who generally know what they are doing and suffer either from a skewed sense of entitlement or a lack of will to do more than the absolute minimum necessary while the rest of the party does the work.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Again you are being selective about who should play on the game.

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I think everyone should definitely be allowed to play the game, but people should only join team activities if they're willing to play in a team-oriented manner. Unfortunately the game is designed in a way that there's generally only one truly effective way to play each job, so trying to find alternative "my own way"s of playing just does not work. I very much doubt you would support a person whose "way of doing dungeons" involves running around alone pulling monsters to wipe their group, a BRD who would do nothing but stand still and sing, or an off-tank who doesn't do anything at all when there aren't any adds up. A healer who refuses to DPS belongs in the group of people who are occacionally doing something useful for the group, but for the most part are just hindering their team because they're unwilling to play their part properly.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

This is not about someone not being a team player this is more about someone maybe believing they are there to heal, because they are a healer and despite people only valuing dps, the game does still need healers. And some dont even know how to stance dance, they may be still learning the game. Your view does not allow for this.

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I never said anything about people who are learning. People who are learning are learning and I'm going to help them if I can. If the player however is a high level with said job and refuses to play effectively then I'm not going to carry them through.

A healer who sits on their hands between heals and does nothing else is a detriment and is not acting as a team player. Most things in this game do not have enough damage going out that a healer only has to heal. However, if the team is bad at dodging AoEs or the tank is undergeared than the healer is expected to heal a lot, we are not talking about that because this is obvious.

Also, as a side my example about the healer was one who had CS always on and healing and not dpsing, not off.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Actually, if someone else doesnt like playing with other people's differences then maybe its time to stop playing a social game. Not everyone fits in your 'box'

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This game does not allow for you to play a job how you want as all Jobs are built to be played a specific way while being ineffective/useless when used any other way.

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Originally Posted by Taika

It absolutely is about being a team player. No fight in this game requires a healer who is only there to heal, and believing that is simply false. And since that is not needed - just like joining a fight as BRD to only sing and not do any DPS because they believe they are there to sing and only that - doing that means being a bad team player. However, it's a different matter when someone is trying and learning to be a good team player by playing their job optimally, but they still need more practice and experience of the fight. What people are opposed to is someone intentionally refusing to use their helpful abilities to support their team because of their personal beliefs or whatever.

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How do you know if someone isnt trying? How far does this go? Thats why there are rules inplace in the game meant to stop people being treated badly. Otherwise some of us wouldnt be allowed in game content at all if it was up to you to decide.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

How do you know if someone isnt trying?

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It's self-evident, isn't it? If someone refuses to communicate at all or directly says they are refusing to do something, then they are not trying. If they say "I'm new to this but I'll do my best", they're obviously trying.

Honestly I am sick and tired of people telling others how they 100% have to play, when they don't pay for their subscription. This is why hardcore players are frowns upon, because they act like totalitarians to various play styles. Just worry about yourself, and stop telling others what they have to do. If a healer wants to DPS, great. If not? Well at least you're alive. Worry about yourself. Content doesn't usually last anymore than thirty minutes.

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

Honestly I am sick and tired of people telling others how they 100% have to play, when they don't pay for their subscription. This is why hardcore players are frowns upon, because they act like totalitarians to various play styles. Just worry about yourself, and stop telling others what they have to do. If a healer wants to DPS, great. If not? Well at least you're alive. Worry about yourself. Content doesn't usually last anymore than thirty minutes.

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I just don't like wasting my time and carrying people through content because they can't be bothered. If a healer is still learning and doesn't stance-dance then fine. But if they stand around and do nothing because no one needs to be healed but they don't want to do anything else, or worse they overheal constantly, then not so fine. I pay my subscription. Stop wasting my time.

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

Honestly I am sick and tired of people telling others how they 100% have to play, when they don't pay for their subscription. This is why hardcore players are frowns upon, because they act like totalitarians to various play styles. Just worry about yourself, and stop telling others what they have to do. If a healer wants to DPS, great. If not? Well at least you're alive. Worry about yourself. Content doesn't usually last anymore than thirty minutes.

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I'm sick of people going into GROUP CONTENT and not being willing to play well.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

The part that you seem to be missing is that idle healers are a detriment to the party. What they believe doesn't matter.

Time and again, we (collectively, as proponents of active and engaged healer gameplay) have expressly stated that players who are learning how to play healers and/or are learning specific encounters or mechanics are not reasonably expected to stance-dance like pros from the start. Likewise, players who are in the position of having to use more healing actions due to issues with the party and/or an unusually high healing requirement are not expected to DPS to the detriment of healing. .

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Some of you still dont get the point that not everyone understands these things. You are creating an environment that is intolerant of others ability to switch. A healer is never a detriment to ateam because they heal, try doing stuff without one

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

they don't pay for their subscription.

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I pay for my own subscription. If someone can't be assed to bother to play even half-decent it's not worth my time and money.
If you think it's worth your money to hit 1 or 2 keys then fine, but don't waste my money.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

A healer is never a detriment to a team because they heal, try doing stuff without one

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That's the same as a tank who thinks they are irreplaceable. I've done stuff without a healer before. They aren't all godly and to think that they are the most required role in the game is not only incredible self centered but also a complete misunderstanding of how the game works.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Some of you still dont get the point that not everyone understands these things. You are creating an environment that is intolerant of others ability to switch. A healer is never a detriment to ateam because they heal, try doing stuff without one

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We are not intolerant. Again if someone is learning or trying then fine. But if they are deliberately doing less because they want to they are being inconsiderate and selfish.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

I pay for my own subscription. If someone can't be assed to bother to play even half-decent it's not worth my time and money. If you think it's worth your money to hit 1 or 2 keys then fine, but don't waste my money.

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Thats fine, your not really being ateam player if you cant accept those not as good as you. We all carry others to some extent, and some dont mind helping people that are weaker, for whatever reason. I actually dont mind how others want to play. It doesnt matter I clear content with allsorts of different people, proving that you dont have to play how others play to do it. To know a fight you got to do it. Healers often have to just heal to learn the fight inially, which proves you can just heal and do it.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Thats fine, your not really being ateam player if you cant accept those not as good as you.

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Once again, it's not about being good or bad - it's about making an effort or not. Everyone here is very accepting towards players who are trying to become better and want to support their team as much as they can, even if they aren't very good. It's only the people who refuse to be helpful, those who expect their team to work harder than they themselves do, who are not appreciated - and for a reason.

"I pay my subscription, therefore everyone should carry me while I hit cure II every 3 seconds while everyone else has to do rotations, movement etc... I'm the team player here, not you"

You can work out pretty quickly those that can't do/aren't comfortable with doing damage, and those that want to half afk and have everyone else carry them. Not everyone is comfortable doing damage during a big pull (on their secondary class/job) and that's fair enough. But sitting there just casting Cure II when there's very little need? That's not a team player, that's a leech. Seeing the defence here of this attitude just makes it clear there are far too many who want a free ride, using 'intolerance' as an effort to shut down the discussion (you're not intolerant of others, are you? For shame).

You can tell when DPS are doing the bare minimum, and they don't get a free ride either. They're more likely to be kicked, from what I've seen. Healers who can do it but refuse are just as bad.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Once again, it's not about being good or bad - it's about making an effort or not. Everyone here is very accepting towards players who are trying to become better and want to support their team as much as they can, even if they aren't very good. It's only the people who refuse to be helpful, those who expect their team to work harder than they themselves do, who are not appreciated - and for a reason.

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I always find that people who argue against the points we try to make put up a strawman and claim that we are unhelpful to people who are learning. I don't get why this is where they always end up when they can't come up with a logical reason to defend their point of view. I am incredibly helpful and understanding, if you are new or inexperienced. If you are level 60 with multiple jobs and are running a low level dungeon and refuse to cast anything but Cure? Yeah, I ain't going to be exactly nice. Why do we have to explain this every single time?

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Some of you still dont get the point that not everyone understands these things. You are creating an environment that is intolerant of others ability to switch. A healer is never a detriment to ateam because they heal, try doing stuff without one

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I challenge you to prove how I am creating this intolerant environment. Even if you were somehow able to monitor my gameplay in parties, you would see that I never harass other players over their playstyle "choices" and make suggestions only when they are causing a real problem. Also, if we were to avoid having discussions like these simply for fear of creating an intolerant environment for some participants, we would discuss basically nothing at all.

You're demonstrating an impressive ability to ignore points that are presented to you as you continue to dress up and relentlessly attack a strawman. You continue to twist a discussion about what is good for party gameplay into a commentary on bullying and intolerant behavior so that you have a position that is easier to defend.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

I always find that people who argue against the points we try to make put up a strawman and claim that we are unhelpful to people who are learning. I don't get why this is where they always end up when they can't come up with a logical reason to defend their point of view. I am incredibly helpful and understanding, if you are new or inexperienced. If you are level 60 with multiple jobs and are running a low level dungeon and refuse to cast anything but Cure? Yeah, I ain't going to be exactly nice. Why do we have to explain this every single time?

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Because we aren't having the same discussion, apparently.

They're busy white-knighting against elitist bullies while the rest of us are trying to make helpful points about how it benefits everyone if healers don't succumb to a double-standard that says that it's okay for them to perform fewer actions and overall do less work. If they really cared about the new people, they'd want to encourage these discussions so that at least those who haven't figured it out on their own would be aware that, yes, you can and should be doing your best with the healer role.

I think the point the original post was trying to make is that if you have more than one healer in PotD and all the healers only heal you don't get anywhere. For example if you have 1 dps and 3 healers and all 3 healers refuse to dps it's going to be a long run, if you even make the time limit. it wasn't about trying to make a healer role seem less important, trying to dis players who are learning, or keep players from playing how they want. It was about bringing up a real problem that holds everyone back, including the players it addresses.

You're demonstrating an impressive ability to ignore points that are presented to you as you continue to dress up and relentlessly attack a strawman. You continue to twist a discussion about what is good for party gameplay into a commentary on bullying and intolerant behavior so that you have a position that is easier to defend.[/QUOTE] The point is that not everyone understands that some people take your points only that every healer has to dps or they are useless. I also keep saying that not everyone can, even if they try. When I started this game it was my understanding that my job was to heal. It took a while for me to realize that I was supposed to dps. Then I had to learn the safe windows. Not everyone knows what they are supposed to be doing. But others could automatically think that ahealer is lazy if they dont. Its not you but the expectation, that your comments create

Im stating my points here because I have experienced this intolerace of healers that want to heal. There are too many people on the game that do expect you to dps even when you feel its not safe. I do hope that SE does something to settle this argument once and for all. I'm getting that the guys went in as healers and may have assumed that because their role was healer thats it should be ok to heal. Yes, its noobish but we are all noobs at some point. SE could actually make healers full healers, then there is no confusion for anyone. Dps dps healer heal. You may choose which you want to do. Idont want to be forced to do both.

This specific post was about PotD tho. Which isn't like a normal dungeon. I get being upset about feeling like you are for lack of better words rejected for your view on healing. Yet with how PotD works what happens if it's a group of healers that all refuse to dps? You don't get anywhere. There is another post about should healers dps or not and I feel your argument belongs there more than on a post about PotD. And I only say that because PotD doesn't work the same as a normal dungeon, your party set up is different.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

You're demonstrating an impressive ability to ignore points that are presented to you as you continue to dress up and relentlessly attack a strawman. You continue to twist a discussion about what is good for party gameplay into a commentary on bullying and intolerant behavior so that you have a position that is easier to defend.

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The point is that not everyone understands that some people take your points only that every healer has to dps or they are useless. I also keep saying that not everyone can, even if they try. When I started this game it was my understanding that my job was to heal. It took a while for me to realize that I was supposed to dps. Then I had to learn the safe windows. Not everyone knows what they are supposed to be doing. But others could automatically think that ahealer is lazy if they dont. Its not you but the expectation, that your comments create[/QUOTE]

How are others supposed to know that they can play better if no one bothers to explain to them the how or why of it? Not every player is going to figure this out on their own, especially if they come from games where the healing role is defined almost 100% by healing actions.

I have never claimed that healers are useless for not using their DPS kits, but I continue to claim that they are performing far below their potential if they choose to use only healing actions. This game very demonstrably does not require healers to heal constantly, nor does the game suggest to players that they are expected to use all of their GCDs to heal while healing is not required. We've been over all of this. Exhaustively.

I didn't go into this game already knowing how the healer role worked. I learned through practice and from constructive tips from other players that I could do far more than stand around waiting for party members to take damage. I learned to read the fights and anticipate where and when damage would be taken, and then it became easy and natural to weave DPS actions so that I could continue to help the party. As a new player I found the attitude of "it's okay, don't you worry about being any good yet" or "I wouldn't want to pressure you to do anything that requires more effort" to be frankly patronizing.

Finally, we are getting a little off-topic from PotD, but all of this applies to some degree in all areas of the game. PotD is just a particularly extreme example because of how it can go from zero healing requirement to emergency mode depending on the group and the RNG of the maps, and some players still struggle with that idea.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Im stating my points here because I have experienced this intolerace of healers that want to heal. There are too many people on the game that do expect you to dps even when you feel its not safe. I do hope that SE does something to settle this argument once and for all. I'm getting that the guys went in as healers and may have assumed that because their role was healer thats it should be ok to heal. Yes, its noobish but we are all noobs at some point. SE could actually make healers full healers, then there is no confusion for anyone. Dps dps healer heal. You may choose which you want to do. Idont want to be forced to do both.

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We've been over all of that again. And again. And again. At what point healing became exclusive of adding DPS I have no idea, but it keeps coming up for absolutely no reason and with nothing to support it.

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Originally Posted by Rennies

I've had two Bards refuse to use Foe Requiem for me because they thought my damage scaled off Piety. Really.

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As a BRD: F that! I don't want to be mobbed by every damn monster on the floor cause you're addicted to your parser.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

We've been over all of that again. And again. And again. At what point healing became exclusive of adding DPS I have no idea.

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In my experience, that's very much the expectation. The other day I entered a12N with my barely eligible WHM and admitted that I had never experienced the content as a WHM, so I didn't know precisely the safe zones for adding dps as the main healer. The AST promptly said they weren't ever gonna exit CS and I was to sink or swim. Partway through the fight several of the dps and the AST started complaining that I wasn't dpsing even though the party was draining my MP much too fast for me to support an aggressive play style, since I had to use my MP tools on CD and I was still sitting at barely a quarter, due to all the damage the party was taking.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

If I was kicked out of an instance for not playing someone else's way then they would be reported.

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Actually (since no one else pointed it out), last I checked it was not against ToS to kick people for having a difference in playstyles. You can complain and report all you want, but the gms are very unlikely to do anything about your complaint of getting kicked.

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Originally Posted by LadyKairi

Actually (since no one else pointed it out), last I checked it was not against ToS to kick people for having a difference in playstyles. You can complain and report all you want, but the gms are very unlikely to do anything about your complaint of getting kicked.

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Can second this, it's not considered griefing to vote kick players you disagree with on playstyle. This includes ice mages, WM/GB free BRD/MCH and ZDPS Healers.

Speaking of Ice Mages and WM/GBless BRD/MCH, absolute refusal to DPS as a healer based on your "playstyle" is the equivalent of Black Mages fearing dropping enochian or messing up and running out of mana and being lazy or BRD/MCH who have the fantasy to never fail a cast. Not using tools (or even just attempting) in your kit because "this is muh fantasy" is lazy at best and detrimental at worst.

Dunno why some people try to sugar coat it. If you know the fight, the team is topped off, chipper and happy and are not expecting a tank buster within the next few seconds- then dps a little bit. If not, go back to watching Netflix and glancing back between episodes of Friends.

It's my sub, I'll play how I want.

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

It's my sub, I'll play how I want.

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The battle cry of everyone you never want in your party.

lol I know. I just haven't seen it in this tread yet so I had to add it lol.

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

lol I know. I just haven't seen it in this tread yet so I had to add it lol.

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At least two people already said it and meant it...and that was just earlier today.

I have this same kind of problem in PotD or another one that really pisses me off. I always play as a Tank (I'm leveling my DRK) and almost all the time I'm in a party usually formed by 3 other DPSs, they think I'm going to tank the whole floor and jump into a room pulling all the monsters in it! I go and start killing one by one, so that they may notice I'm there to DPS, not to tank, saving it only to boss.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

At least two people already said it and meant it...and that was just earlier today.

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It's my forum log in, I'll read what I want! :p

To actually try to contribute to this thread....This has become a flame war against healers. A healer that only heals is playing their role as intended. If they only throw out heals and there aren't any wipes, then job done. Is it optimal game play? Absolutely not. Would it go by faster if they did dps? Absolutely. Just my 2 cents.

I usually avoid potd like the plague, because most of the time there isn't any concerted effort at all. Until you get above floor 50, there doesn't need to really be any team play.

Someone could literally just sit and wait at the gate Every floor and let the other 3 do all the work. Be thankful the heal"only"er is actually pushing buttons.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

In my experience, that's very much the expectation. The other day I entered a12N with my barely eligible WHM and admitted that I had never experienced the content as a WHM, so I didn't know precisely the safe zones for adding dps as the main healer. The AST promptly said they weren't ever gonna exit CS and I was to sink or swim. Partway through the fight several of the dps and the AST started complaining that I wasn't dpsing even though the party was draining my MP much too fast for me to support an aggressive play style, since I had to use my MP tools on CD and I was still sitting at barely a quarter, due to all the damage the party was taking.

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Your complaint appears to be valid, but the subject of your complaint is more accurately described as "bad players trying to tell me what to do." Optimal healer gameplay is not one or both healers deciding to go HAM on what they feel like doing and leaving their partner to do 100% of what they didn't feel like doing.

If the AST hadn't set you up to be in a bad spot by refusing to do their part, and if they had been able to do their job correctly, you wouldn't have had such a problem. The bit about good healers using their full kits goes both ways; no good healer tunnels in exclusively on healing or on DPS.

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

To actually try to contribute to this thread....This has become a flame war against healers. A healer that only heals is playing their role as intended. If they only throw out heals and there aren't any wipes, then job done. Is it optimal game play? Absolutely not. Would it go by faster if they did dps? Absolutely. Just my 2 cents.

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I'd argue this thread parallels any other class discussion with under performing players, this just so happens to be in the healer forums so it's about the healers. Nobody likes to play with Black Mages who only use ice spells, bard and machinists who go 100% mobile and lose out of amazing abilities, melee who refuse to use positionals or skills. Whats truly detrimental to contribution of discussion is labeling anything opposed to piss poor, minimalistic gameplay as a flame war- it leaves no room for one half of the argument to exist by the idea that they have nothing to offer beyond caustic spew.

Any class can play minimally (Think 1 2 3) and "then job done", but don't expect others to accept it as contributing.

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

A healer that only heals is playing their role as intended.

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In FFXIV they aren't.

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

To actually try to contribute to this thread....This has become a flame war against healers. A healer that only heals is playing their role as intended. If they only throw out heals and there aren't any wipes, then job done. Is it optimal game play? Absolutely not. Would it go by faster if they did dps? Absolutely. Just my 2 cents.

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In general then yes if they do there job as just healer in a regular dungeon, yes it would be fine. Not ideal since it's a little faster if they can help dps but still fine. That wasn't meant to be the complaint of this post. in PotD where you can end up with 2 or more healers if the healers only heal you won't make the time limit or if you do it's going to be extremely drawn out, and that's if the dps/tank with the healers are even geared enough to solo the content.