Concerns about " Getting rid of unused and ineffective actions"

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Originally Posted by Norleas

Haymaker and featherfoot are useful, though haymaker I think should be similar to DRK's ability after parrying and be off GCD.

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The only problem with Haymaker is the Slow effect.
Never liked the Slow effect since ARR day 1, I miss the Stun effect Haymaker had during 1.x

Feather Feet + Taunt (1.x PGL skill, that make the enemy to attack the PGL 1 time before attacking his primal target again) + Haymaker was a nice combo I used during 1.x.

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Originally Posted by Miles_Maelstrom

Tempered Will won't be missed. Every time you think, hey I can avoid this if I use Tempered Will, it doesn't work on that for whatever reason.

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Buts its useful for Sophia to cheese that thunder 2 after her tilt or her tank buster knockback..

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Originally Posted by Miles_Maelstrom

Tempered Will won't be missed. Every time you think, hey I can avoid this if I use Tempered Will, it doesn't work on that for whatever reason.

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that's only because you're slow. it's the same as Benediction and Hallowed Ground, they should fix the lag but they all work if you know how to anticipate the delay.

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Originally Posted by Miles_Maelstrom

Tempered Will won't be missed. Every time you think, hey I can avoid this if I use Tempered Will, it doesn't work on that for whatever reason.

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but it works on many things, I think you just use it too late.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

People they say spells like Sleep don't have any use whatsoever don't play BLM in all content where sleep in lower dungeons can save lives. Or completely shut down adds in boss fights. Removing stuff like that turns your job class to only perform one function and make it boring real quick and real fast.

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In all of those situations it's better for the BLM to use fire 2

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Originally Posted by Pondera

Try taking away a Black Mage's fire 1 and see how much of a twist they get into. With no fire 1, no fire starter, and it's harder to keep Astral Fire 3 refreshed during Enochian for optimal DPS. And, if I recall correctly, White Mages casting cure 2 can see benefits in cure 3's cast time and speed.

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If an action is used even later, like Fire, it isn't an "unused and ineffective action" - as stated, it's useful for stuff like Firestarter. So there's no chance of it getting the boot.

I'm...not entirely certain what you mean by "the benefit's in Cure 3's cast time and speed". Cure III is the slowest Cure spell, having a 2.5s cast time, compared to Cure I and II's 2.0s cast time. It's also flat out worse, with a lower potency and the only benefit being a 4y radius...which is only a bit larger than melee range. You might as well cast Medica, unless everyone in need of healing is packed together. Unless you meant regular Cure? But then the advantage would be a lower MP cost, not speed...

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Originally Posted by ErdrickLoto

If an action is used even later, like Fire, it isn't an "unused and ineffective action" - as stated, it's useful for stuff like Firestarter. So there's no chance of it getting the boot.

I'm...not entirely certain what you mean by "the benefit's in Cure 3's cast time and speed". Cure III is the slowest Cure spell, having a 2.5s cast time, compared to Cure I and II's 2.0s cast time. It's also flat out worse, with a lower potency and the only benefit being a 4y radius...which is only a bit larger than melee range. You might as well cast Medica, unless everyone in need of healing is packed together. Unless you meant regular Cure? But then the advantage would be a lower MP cost, not speed...

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Cure III is godly in very niche circumstances.

For example, in A4 when you had to spread out far from the other heal and away from the group, and the tank would be constantly hit with splash damage on the melee. Cure III is meant for that. It's also very useful in T11. It's also a much higher potency than Medica, making it better for topping up the team after a huge aoe (assuming you have a coordinated team that stacks up for said attacks).

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Originally Posted by ZhaneX

Have you ever tried Solo-Play as a BLM? Sleep is kind of essential. Really great for MSQ or FATEs.

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Repose for WHM/CNJ too. I have used it to great effect in MSQ solo instances on an alt, and also when leveling CNJ/WHM solo. It's just another of those strategic skills that a lot of people overlook. Actually while playing WHM I ran Cutter's Cry with a group that were not really very strong, I was routinely reposing mobs to keep things under control. That group thanked me in the end because they had been having a hard time getting through. I can only imagine that no previous healer bothered to repose anything and they would wipe.

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Originally Posted by ErdrickLoto

If an action is used even later, like Fire, it isn't an "unused and ineffective action" - as stated, it's useful for stuff like Firestarter. So there's no chance of it getting the boot.

I'm...not entirely certain what you mean by "the benefit's in Cure 3's cast time and speed". Cure III is the slowest Cure spell, having a 2.5s cast time, compared to Cure I and II's 2.0s cast time. It's also flat out worse, with a lower potency and the only benefit being a 4y radius...which is only a bit larger than melee range. You might as well cast Medica, unless everyone in need of healing is packed together. Unless you meant regular Cure? But then the advantage would be a lower MP cost, not speed...

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Nailed it.

Looking forward to how they rework Stella

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

It could also mean combining certain things, like if they put the damage buff of monk's Twin Snakes onto True Strike there'd be no reason to have both.

When you have moves like Fracture which even for their main job are a dps loss unless you have several buffs active and not enough time remaining on the buffs for another fell cleave there's somethin wrong there.

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Alternatively, you would then break the 3 skills per stance basis of Monk and nerf its skill cap and potency-per-execute dynamics.

Fracture could actually be made newly useful for DRG and useful in all but a few situations for WAR by: (1) fixing Skill Speed (reduce TP refresh and bonus ticks by 20% but have them go off per the player GCD, or at a rate equal to the base / pre-accelerated GCD), and (2) adding just 5 more periodic potency, and possibly 10 more TP cost to compensate.

At OP:
Any post-WM/GB Ranged would be hard-pressed not to find a regular use for Feint, and you absolutely use Thunder I and II even after gaining Thunder III. I would hope such functionality is not likely to be trimmed, especially without a replacement.

I'm hoping that rather than trimming abilities as a first pass, it will be the finishing touch instead on a systemic rehaul to allow more control and decision with each keystroke. Thunder (I through III) could easily be a tiered charge instead, as the spells are otherwise unvaried, therefore keeping all three, but within a single button. At present, Perfect Balance is the only thing keeping Monks from merely using 3 keys to hold all 9 primary (stanced) weaponskills; either the stance concept itself should be revisited, Perfect Balance's cooldown revised to make it seem a more frequent part of play (rather than just an opener or emergency burst), or the way Perfect Balance works, maybe paired with Form Shift, should be adjusted to allow the use of 3 keys for the 9 abilities. The same can be said for every combo; if there's no viable reason to leave a combo early, then that whole combo is essentially one ability, its finisher, and would normally make sense to condense into a single key. This is of course more the case for Dragoon than, say, Ninja.

Reassessment of how certain mechanics work is another potential path, such as by making no enemy completely immune to any given debuff, but that debuff acting in other, less potent ways, adding elemental mechanics, revising how RNG mitigation and their abilities work (Dodge; Featherfoot) as to be more smarter and more reliable without necessarily being more powerful overall.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Cure III is godly in very niche circumstances.

For example, in A4 when you had to spread out far from the other heal and away from the group, and the tank would be constantly hit with splash damage on the melee. Cure III is meant for that. It's also very useful in T11. It's also a much higher potency than Medica, making it better for topping up the team after a huge aoe (assuming you have a coordinated team that stacks up for said attacks).

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Nidhogg's Akh Morn spam is an even better example! A WHM should definitely use Cure III over Medica in that situation (after an initial Medica II, at any rate).

A lot of the proposals for condensing abilities could be as easily accomplished by letting macros queue abilities the same way the raw abilities do.

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Originally Posted by ErdrickLoto

I'm...not entirely certain what you mean by "the benefit's in Cure 3's cast time and speed". Cure III is the slowest Cure spell, having a 2.5s cast time, compared to Cure I and II's 2.0s cast time. It's also flat out worse, with a lower potency and the only benefit being a 4y radius...which is only a bit larger than melee range. You might as well cast Medica, unless everyone in need of healing is packed together. Unless you meant regular Cure? But then the advantage would be a lower MP cost, not speed...

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No, Cure III has the same cast and recast time as Cure I and Cure II, 2.0s cast and 2.5s recast. Medica (2.5s cast and 2.5s recast) and Medica II (3.5s cast and 3.0s recast) have slower cast times. Cure III is useful when you need to quickly heal players' HP for a subsequent AoE attack. Healing is just balancing MP efficiency vs. GCD efficiency vs. time. Sometimes you have to ignore MP efficiency.

In this raid tier with A11 Savage and A12 Savage, Cure III is very useful to use as a WHM since there are multiple subsequent party-wide AoE that require everyone's HP to be topped off quickly.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Nidhogg's Akh Morn spam is an even better example! A WHM should definitely use Cure III over Medica in that situation (after an initial Medica II, at any rate).

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Cure III was also pretty godly in Sephirot too. Everyone up until phase 3 is always clumped together, especially for the adds. If your dps gets too heavy handed Cure 3 will mean the difference between a wipe or moving onto the next phase. Especially if you combine it with Divine Seal and Presence of Mind.

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Originally Posted by lulunami

No, Cure III has the same cast and recast time as Cure I and Cure II, 2.0s cast and 2.5s recast. Medica (2.5s cast and 2.5s recast) and Medica II (3.5s cast and 3.0s recast) have slower cast times.
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In this raid tier with A11 Savage and A12 Savage, Cure III is very useful to use as a WHM since there are multiple subsequent party-wide AoE that require everyone's HP to be topped off quickly.

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Ah, did some additional information searching and you're correct. Apologies for the misinformation. (Though that would still mean that the OP was incorrect, if Cure III has the same cast time as Cure I/II... Unless they were trying to compare to Medica, I guess.)

Presuming SE is capable of designing fights that give good usage of Cure III's AoE, then I'd presume that it would still end up the same way - Cure III is a valuable asset to the WHM, and so isn't a target for being deleted.

Turret Retrieval. Machinist. Most useless skill. EVER.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Alternatively, you would then break the 3 skills per stance basis of Monk and nerf its skill cap and potency-per-execute dynamics.

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And?

Twin Snakes and True Strike are the same form. You alternate them, 1 to keep the buff up, and the other for the higher damage. If you added the buff to the higher damage one you'd just always use that 1 skill for raptor form. So what if combining them lowers the skill needed to play it; SE's already said they want to do that for jobs. As for potency per gcd, no, it'd raise it, because Twin Snakes is lower potency, so putting the buff on True Strike would just mean using the higher potency move each time. Your wording is a bit strange though so if you mean something else by "potency-per-execute" idk, but refer to what SE's said. They want buff management simpler, they want skill needed for max efficiency to be lower, and they want skill bloat down. Win-win-win for that example. There is literally nothing MNK would miss out on by putting the damage buff on True Strike and ditching Twin Snakes. Even the level difference, since True Strike is level 2 there wouldn't even be an awkward level while levelling. Could even make it a trait @ the level we get Twin Snakes to keep PUG from being OP from lv 2 to 18 lol.

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Originally Posted by ErdrickLoto

Ah, did some additional information searching and you're correct. Apologies for the misinformation. (Though that would still mean that the OP was incorrect, if Cure III has the same cast time as Cure I/II... Unless they were trying to compare to Medica, I guess.)

Presuming SE is capable of designing fights that give good usage of Cure III's AoE, then I'd presume that it would still end up the same way - Cure III is a valuable asset to the WHM, and so isn't a target for being deleted.

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I was more referring to the traits of Freecure and Overcure, which makes Cure 1 have a 15% chance of making Cure II's MP cost be 0, and Overcure gives Cure II's a 15% of making Cure III's cost half MP. I'd imagine it really goes a long way to help white mages conserve mp for longer fight.

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Originally Posted by AlexanderThorolund

Looking forward to how they rework Stella

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Honestly, I think this is one of the few moves that could be completely erased and no one would notice. It's too expensive, the potency is too low, and the heavy effect works on so few enemies you may as well just use your Malefics instead.


One option, though, is to put forth more "traits" on skills to make up for the skills on the chopping block, or to make under-used skills actually worth using.

Right now, there are too many that are extremely situational, like Cure 3. Yes, it's superior to use during stacking mechanics, but I, an AST, have never been in a situation where I couldn't handle a stacked party with just Helios.


My personal favorites, though, are the BLM sheilds, Manaward and Manawall. Why are those attatched to the burst, turret mage DPS with the most restrictive rotation?

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

Honestly, I think [Stella] is one of the few moves that could be completely erased and no one would notice.

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It's so pretty, though! ;_;

Heavy's one of those things that'd be good to at least put on another skill for AST. I use it on those orbs @ mhach city, definitely good for those. There was also important raid use for heavy as recent as A6S. Even if they just put in on Gravity like it should already be on. :D

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

My personal favorites, though, are the BLM sheilds, Manaward and Manawall. Why are those attatched to the burst, turret mage DPS with the most restrictive rotation?

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DON'T YOU DARE. I'll tell you why those are attached to black mage: Because of their habit of pulling aggro away from the tank. Furthermore, sometimes, they'll all that separates you from life and death. I was doing Burden of the Son the other night, and my group flubbed a mechanic. Because I saw this fail about to happen, I popped ward and wall and managed to be the only one to survive. From there, I popped swift and sharpcast, fire I, and then a Fire III immediately after. That was all Brute Justice needed to throw in the towel. Got 6 commendations from that.

They're valuable defensive cooldowns on a class that is already fragile, they'll cool, they're useful as can be, and they're off global cooldown so they wouldn't interfere with that restrictive rotation anyway. I really hate to offend or write salty statements, but it's comments like that that really make me fear for the future of this game.

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Originally Posted by Emeke

Turret Retrieval. Machinist. Most useless skill. EVER.

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Not for controller. Sometimes I need my turret to stop firing, it's rare I do but still needed sometimes.

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

My personal favorites, though, are the BLM sheilds, Manaward and Manawall. Why are those attatched to the burst, turret mage DPS with the most restrictive rotation?

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Because it's the turret dps with the most restrictive rotation? Which is a bigger dps loss, getting marked with an AoE and having to spend a full second + to move out, or stalling your cast for .5 of a second so you can pop a shield and not suffer an interrupted cast? I've started doing this when I have Ley Lines up. That buff is such an AoE magnet... :3

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Originally Posted by Felis

The only problem with Haymaker is the Slow effect.
Never liked the Slow effect since ARR day 1, I miss the Stun effect Haymaker had during 1.x

Feather Feet + Taunt (1.x PGL skill, that make the enemy to attack the PGL 1 time before attacking his primal target again) + Haymaker was a nice combo I used during 1.x.

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Technically that was Jarring Blow. Haymaker just dealt cheesily serious damage.

And being able to use both while dodging ranged attacks against us on Archer — stun, air-punch for massive damage, stun again...

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Originally Posted by Pondera

DON'T YOU DARE.

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Lol sorry. I'm still a level 53 scrub BLM, but I've never witnessed another use either skill in this way, on themselves or on others. I do see Apopcastasis (spelling?) hit tanks and healers once in a blue moon, but hardly the mana-shields.

But, this kind of situation can also be construed as part of the problem. Yes, you know how to use them wisely and saved a raid that time in doing so, but a regular, non-Savage level BLM may never touch them, and if their group is doing well, not even necessarily great, just well, they may never even require it to keep themselves alive and burning.

Not when they can just move out of the AoE like everyone else has to.


What about Scathe?

Scathe is useless compared to F4. It's more a last ditch desperation move when there's other better options.

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

Lol sorry. I'm still a level 53 scrub BLM, but I've never witnessed another use either skill in this way, on themselves or on others. I do see Apopcastasis (spelling?) hit tanks and healers once in a blue moon, but hardly the mana-shields.

But, this kind of situation can also be construed as part of the problem. Yes, you know how to use them wisely and saved a raid that time in doing so, but a regular, non-Savage level BLM may never touch them, and if their group is doing well, not even necessarily great, just well, they may never even require it to keep themselves alive and burning.

Not when they can just move out of the AoE like everyone else has to.


What about Scathe?

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Okay, Scathe is of questionable usefulness. I've sometimes used it to blast down a mob on the verge of death so the group doesn't have to stop to deal with it. I've used it a total of about 4 times since I got it, and most certainly wouldn't use a sharpcast proc to enhance it.The DPS is negligible and it really only amounts to a cherry tap. The role it fills, being able to cast it and stay mobile, could be replaced by a self-cast buff that allows one to cast and keep moving, and this set-up would provide far greater utility. If such an exchange was offered, I would give scathe up.

I'm just leery of declaring really any skill unused and ineffective. For example, my PLD is set up with fracture, if only because I don't have access to stone skin just yet. I make it a game with myself to see if I can't maintain it with 100% uptime, but does it really make a difference in the fight? No. Am I losing DPS and possible aggro? Yeah, most likely. But I've heard from the monks that if they lose fracture, they're rioting. Can we really speak for the entire playerbase when we declare any skill useless? At this point in the game, with hundreds or possibly thousands of hours logged, removing ANYTHING is going to get people into a frothing at the mouth rage. I'm just freaking out right now because of the lack of specifics, and, even though Yoshi P might be going at this with the game's best interests at heart, a certain proverbial road is paved with good intentions.

Instead of just declaring "get gud, move out of AoE", I'd much rather have the OPTION of popping my barriers and surviving a mistake instead of repainting the room "Black Mage Crimson". Why is it that it even has to be removed? Don't like a skill, or don't think it has a use? Don't have it on your hot bar.

Fracture's a dps gain up until level 54 for pld's, since it's a total 220 potency in one hit compared to RoH's 210 in 3.

I would give my left arm if they made crowd control more viable. *Not* essential. Keep it so you can do the finesse route with CC or bully through it so you're not boned if you don't have that class. I played EverQuest as an enchanter and I absolutely loved locking an entire room of mobs down and feeding them into my party Cuisinart one after another. But my role was absolutely essential for leveling groups and it discouraged players from thinking outside the box sometimes. I want to see that creativity encouraged here. PotD has been a good example of this sort of thinking and I think they should learn from that.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

A great design choice for the devs to take intelligent use of CC and nerf it to become obsolete.

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The problem is that it's not used in the context of combat, but to circumvent actually having to fight things. And really the problem in that case was Deep Sleep/Sleepga. An alternative would have been to replace the Deep Sleep trait with something else, that way a BLM can't realistically sleep a room's worth of mobs just so that the group can rush through a dungeon. Letting dungeon mobs cross the magic walls that come up when you engage a boss would also have worked, since you still have to fight the mobs you pulled.

Smart use of CC would be designing packs of mobs where one is more dangerous or need to be controlled so that it doesn't lead to the tank dying or some other inconvenience to the group. As I mentioned in an earlier post, allowing Sleep/Repose to be used on confused/mind-controlled player characters would also be a step in the right direction.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

The problem is that it's not used in the context of combat, but to circumvent actually having to fight things.

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One of my favorite things about sleep is that in many quests you can simply sleep any aggroing creatures so that you don't have to fight (or injure) them! Instead you just walk in, take their stuff (sorry?) and run! Maybe they wake up, get mad, chase you for a bit, then give up. I mean, I don't have any real grudge against the monsters, wildlife* or beast tribes - I just need an item for a quest. :)

Edit: *Except Opo-opos. I despise them and their Mun-Tuy bean-stealing ways.

Streamlining things will be great, but I'd miss the specific animations for the skills. (I experiment with different moves and their animations and effects for doing screenshots.) So if they tier abilities, then you either only get one animation, or certain animations will be level-locked. I can see certain defensive abilities becoming passive (taking effect with a percent chance in certain situations) but once again, being able to activate that animation on command for a screenshot would be missed.

Frankly, I would love it if there was an option/command to be able to do a flashy, but no damage targetless attack animation for the specific reason of screenshots. Like the Magitek armor attacks (useful in Praetorium, but just cosmetic on the mount) You know that they to listen to screenshot enthusiasts, just look at /gpose picture controls.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

allowing Sleep/Repose to be used on confused/mind-controlled player characters would also be a step in the right direction.

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I wish you could cast/use anything on anyone in general, as you can in other FF games. I was so disappointed that WHM couldn't DPS against undead using Cure (and Raise!) I also miss weird mechanics like hitting your party to wake them up, or Reflect status which wears off at the worst possible moment...

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Originally Posted by Avenger

I wish you could cast/use anything on anyone in general, as you can in other FF games. I was so disappointed that WHM couldn't DPS against undead using Cure (and Raise!) I also miss weird mechanics like hitting your party to wake them up, or Reflect status which wears off at the worst possible moment...

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Considering the devs are against PVP outside of PVP areas, I doubt this would even become a thing. Too many griefing opportunities.

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

Considering the devs are against PVP outside of PVP areas, I doubt this would even become a thing. Too many griefing opportunities.

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True enough, and there is a lot more room for error "Oh no, I accidently slept my tank instead of healing him!" or "Oh no, I accidently healed the enemy instead of attacking him!"

I mean, AoE healing skills are useless in MSQ and Job level locked quests as well. "What do you mean, I can't medica II and heal my Scion friends with myself?"

I know that's because those things only work on party members, but what stops them putting them all in a party with you? You can't enter those events with a party anyway.

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Originally Posted by Blood-Aki

Try reading the posts, and you will understand the reasons behind why they are next to useless, it's just that "early game" that part of the game that's quickly passed and forgotten about in a day or 2. and if you're running with a tank that can't hold aggro, you have bigger problems then making a spell useful.

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K... Not everyone plays the game like you, aiming for all the brand new end game content and ignoring everything else. Are there some skills that could actually stand to be cut? Sure, probably. But a lot of skills mentioned in this thread just fall under "this doesn't get used in the optimum ideal best most efficient rotation and is therefore useless."

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Originally Posted by Terrini

True enough, and there is a lot more room for error "Oh no, I accidently slept my tank instead of healing him!" or "Oh no, I accidently healed the enemy instead of attacking him!"

I mean, AoE healing skills are useless in MSQ and Job level locked quests as well. "What do you mean, I can't medica II and heal my Scion friends with myself?"

I know that's because those things only work on party members, but what stops them putting them all in a party with you? You can't enter those events with a party anyway.

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It also restricts target-specific hotbar modding, which might be another way of pruning the total keybinds needed. When aiming at an enemy, your offensive skills show; aiming at an ally, your healing skills show. Alternatively, you could show all, but your heals when targeting an enemy can be toggled to focus-cast, target-of-target cast, etc.

Of course, I'm not saying that isn't worth the trade as long as this kind of thing is done fairly universally, albeit with minimal potential annoyances.

As for the griefing possibilities, I can't imagine that being without easy means of mitigation. You can make Sleep a buff when afflicted by an ally, and simply click it off, possibly with a new general aura-cancel key with the applicable buffs flashing, using it to ignore certain charm/fear mechanic (sometimes with the risk of putting them into an even worse nightmare, from which they can't be woken). If an ally is frozen or takes on a debuff that will freeze him, either an external hitbox with associated art is created for/around the frozen/freezing ally, or the ally him/herself becomes targetable. In the first case a seperate unit, the ice barrier, is created, but the ally to whom it is attached may or may not still be targetable. I personally don't mind the idea of letting that barrier feed up to x HP before Flaring my own ally with bonus fire damage on the barrier (likely reduced on any excess), trying to cut damage as close as possible, but neither would I mind that no damage can actually be inflicted to the ally himself, only the debuff (same entity) or barrier (separate). The same can be done for Charmed allies, hitting them only to the point (show on their health bar in a different color) that would release them from the charm, or with reduced excess damage. Healing enemies could similarly be limited to undead or similar case enemies, specifically, or maybe even those who you can generate buffs from your damage dealt, but don't actually want to kill. Just as we have target filters, you could do the same with such controls. These modes could even be on a fight-by-fight basis that may indicate presumable fight mechanics, even if that means beating each other to keep them from generating too much Shadow or whatever debuff (which, when kept under control, aids their dps, altough thereby needing more beating), or whatnot.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

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Having all of those conditional targeting in the code would be troubling. I mean, I main WHM and when I do solo content I just throw out heals while targeting enemies because it defaults to healing myself. With the change as well, i;d have to change my strategy to specifically target myself, or I'd die because I wouldn't be auto-targeting myself for heals if I was solo fighting an undead that gets damaged by heals. While it would be interesting to have all of these elements added into the game, I'm sure the sheer amount of recoding to add that element would be daunting...

It may be feasible to be brought into an expac, possibly, but they'd need to have a specific reason to do so. Their "pruning" of the skills is likely part of optimizing the new classes they will be adding and keeping functionality between Tank/Healer/DPS as they're streamlining the roles with the expac. Battle system changes are made specifically to accommodate new battle mechanics being added, and it's possible that with Red Mage coming out, they might have something like role selection and that's why they're streamlining things so that you have more sub-abilities available based on your role and not just because as a certain job you have access to certain classes sub-abilities. It seems they are removing that.

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Originally Posted by Felis

The only problem with Haymaker is the Slow effect.
Never liked the Slow effect since ARR day 1, I miss the Stun effect Haymaker had during 1.x

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Always thought that haymaker should have been bind effect. If we're gonna have the back/flank mechanic I mean.