Why samurai is much more possible as a dps than you think

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

I hope you know that your very skewed vision of Samurai isn't very applicable. As you know, Samurai are soldiers. They were also used in war situations (this happened IRL and with games). A samurai (or knight) is not going to let their friends die on the battlefield because they're afraid of killing an enemy soldier from behind. They're not afraid of the code by attacking the enemy from behind on the battlefield. Watching an ally struggle and die because you chose not to kill your enemy that is about to kill your friend, since you'd be striking them down from the back, isn't exactly a great view of samurai with both fiction and reality. The battlefield is not the same as a duel. Honor has little meaning there.

If Samurai (the job) wouldn't make sense as DPS because of the fact DPS mainly attack from behind is what makes it illogical, then how does it make sense to even allow Samurai to attack from behind at all? Doesn't the fact that we would be able to do that contradict the very core of your argument? Say if the SAM was OT for a raid with no adds at the time. Chances are, the SAM would be attacking from behind lol. As I mentioned with the battlefield comment, what exactly do you think raid situations or dungeons are? I don't think anyone who plays this game could call them honorable duels.

Not saying that SAM can't be tank, I'd welcome either roles with open arms... hell, even it as a healer if they could lol. I'm just attacking your argument on justifying it being only possible as a tank and not a DPS, even by fictional and IRL standards.

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Realistically speaking, the Bushido code was taken about as seriously by the samurai as the concept of chivalry was by European knights. As in, sacrosanct so much as it stood to benefit them, but mostly ignored the moment it was a hindrance.

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Originally Posted by Kiteless

Realistically speaking, the Bushido code was taken about as seriously by the samurai as the concept of chivalry was by European knights. As in, sacrosanct so much as it stood to benefit them, but mostly ignored the moment it was a hindrance.

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Yeah, that is definitely the realistic approach to it for both fantasy and reality. That's exactly why the argument about samurai never attacking from behind just isn't plausible, especially when you consider this is a video game lol. The guy was also asking for any examples of such attacks, even in fiction, and well... look no further than For Honor.

http://imgur.com/a/7NhKH

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Originally Posted by MyaValentine

honestly the idea of blue mage tank really exited me and I was hoping for a more magic base tank, but I guess another sword it is.

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you and me both, i think blu would make a better tank than rdm any day, esp for lore sake and how easilly it could be fit in to this game, despite breaking some of the tradition

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

you and me both, i think blu would make a better tank than rdm any day, esp for lore sake and how easilly it could be fit in to this game, despite breaking some of the tradition

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To me, it always comes down to how a story treats the job/class. Looking at XI as an example, BLU was regarded as "Immortals", a group of elite guard directly serving royalty (Empress in XI's case). Assassins, scouts, and a one-man army, all rolled into a single BLU Immortal. Easy to see them as both tank and DPS. If the story were to just make them more like some generic powerful mage that kills people, it'd probably just be seen as DPS lol.

So yeah, like I said, for me it just comes down to how the specific game treats the story pertaining to them.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

To me, it always comes down to how a story treats the job/class. If the story were to just make them more like some generic powerful mage that kills people, it'd probably just be seen as DPS lol.

So yeah, like I said, for me it just comes down to how the specific game treats the story pertaining to them.

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i cant speak for 11, but the jobs full identity is to survive an enemies awesome attack, and learn it by taking that hit and not dying, so to me it would fit more as a tank. a magical dps tank, or some such. As for 11 and their place ill take it definately,
i also watched merri's speculation which sort of tied raubahn to 11s rauhbahn in ways not even mentioned, i mean look at the grand melee he is totally using ifrit/ultima weapon plumes on us. The skills for blu may be short in 14 but theyd definately be sweet imo

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

i cant speak for 11, but the jobs full identity is to survive an enemies awesome attack, and learn it by taking that hit and not dying, so to me it would fit more as a tank. a magical dps tank, or some such. As for 11 and their place ill take it definately,
i also watched merri's speculation which sort of tied raubahn to 11s rauhbahn in ways not even mentioned, i mean look at the grand melee he is totally using ifrit/ultima weapon plumes on us. The skills for blu may be short in 14 but theyd definately be sweet imo

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THIS

This is what I keep telling people! BLU would be a great tank!

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Originally Posted by Alacran

How about a game? lets try to find nice iconic pictures of sword depictions in battle. Cinematic, animated, fan art, ect... whatever you feel best encapsulates the the iconography of a sword and those who use them.

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Sure.

https://lifevsfilm.files.wordpress.c...-kurosawa2.jpg

Didn't expect this thread to blow up

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Originally Posted by Norleas

Didn't expect this thread to blow up

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Oh please, I saw you around on the forum for long enough to not expect this topic to not blow up.

On topic, I think it's 50-50 that is can be either tank or dps. Personally hoping it would be a 2H katana DPS though.

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Originally Posted by SokiYagami

Oh please, I saw you around on the forum for long enough to not expect this topic to not blow up.

On topic, I think it's 50-50 that is can be either tank or dps. Personally hoping it would be a 2H katana DPS though.

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Yeah... This particular type of threads always get a lot of heat, it's hard to believe they think it wouldn't blow up.

I agree though, SAM's role is a VERY 50/50 thing right now, some people see that, some people don't, we'll know for sure in a few months time (Hopefully)

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Originally Posted by Katana190

Yeah... This particular type of threads always get a lot of heat, it's hard to believe they think it wouldn't blow up.

I agree though, SAM's role is a VERY 50/50 thing right now, some people see that, some people don't, we'll know for sure in a few months time (Hopefully)

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Exactly. Especially the part where yoshi said they will be re-working on parry makes SAM a variable parry counter tank. As for the dps counter-arguement of Bushido not attacking for the rear, that's mostly for one-on-one duel. On the battlefield anything goes. If you watch enough sword fights (in show/manga/anime), there's actually enough emphasis on footwork to route to the back of the opponent and slash their open back to rebut that argument.

So yeah, 50-50 (imo) chances, I'm still praying for 2H katana DPS >_<

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Originally Posted by SokiYagami

Especially the part where yoshi said they will be re-working on parry makes SAM a variable parry tank.

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Isn't PLD already the parry/block tank?

SAM obivously gonna be a healer !
Disapointment over 9000 for 90%/95% of the community :D

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Isn't PLD already the parry/block tank?

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I'm thinking more of parry into counter attack (or some sort of defensive actions in this case). There are actually some Kenjutsu/Kendo schools built around this concept. Right now PLD pretty much just parry and then.... yeah. PLD do get Shield Swap, but that's about it. I wouldn't exactly call it a parry tank. Now that I think about it, counter tank does seems to be the right term. Too used to parrying into counter attack from playing Onimusha lol.

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Originally Posted by Watachy

SAM obivously gonna be a healer !
Disapointment over 9000 for 90%/95% of the community :D

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I actually joked about this before with Sesshomaru and Tenseiga lol.

I think runefencer should be the next tanking class it's 2h like dark knight.
It uses runes/magic to tank. It would fit in nice with the other tanks

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Originally Posted by SokiYagami

I'm thinking more of parry into counter attack (or some sort of defensive actions in this case). There are actually some Kenjutsu/Kendo schools built around this concept. Right now PLD pretty much just parry and then.... yeah. PLD do get Shield Swap, but that's about it. I wouldn't exactly call it a parry tank.

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Ah, I misunderstood, I thought you meant SAM would be a tank that specialises in mitigation through parry and block (i.e. what PLD is supposed to be), what you actually want is a counter/reflect tank, which several others have suggested and I wouldn't be opposed to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ek7wOYc4uKQ

Samurai Tank and Samurai DPS get into a fight

I see a SAM tank being like Aoshi, using a wakizahi and a katana to counter and attack, while I see a dps being like Kenshin; quick and deadly, using every opportunity given to them to strike from any direction (Aoshi would have been killed really early on if Kenshin wasn't using a reverse blade).

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Ah, I misunderstood, I thought you meant SAM would be a tank that specialises in mitigation through parry and block (i.e. what PLD is supposed to be), what you actually want is a counter/reflect tank, which several others have suggested and I wouldn't be opposed to.

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Yup, that's what I had in mind. Damn, you managed to quote me before I edited my previous comment. XD

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

I see a SAM tank being like Aoshi, using a wakizahi and a katana to counter and attack, while I see a dps being like Kenshin; quick and deadly, using every opportunity given to them to strike from any direction (Aoshi would have been killed really early on if Kenshin wasn't using a reverse blade).

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Love Kenshin! Ironically Aoshi's actually a Ninja in the movie/manga though lol. But yes, dual-blade schools tend to focus more on speed and parrying whereby single-blade schools will be more power focus instead.

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Originally Posted by SokiYagami

Love Kenshin! Ironically Aoshi's actually a Ninja in the movie/manga though lol. But yes, dual-blade schools tend to focus more on speed and parrying whereby single-blade schools will be more power focus instead.

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I was actually trying to find the anime scene, where Kenshin explains to the audience why a wakizashi makes Aoshi virtually untouchable compared to Kenshin. I was quite pleased to find this movie, any idea where I can watch it?

Also yeah, I did kind of forget the shinsengumi were ninjas not samurai x3 Still of note in that clip, Kenshin was speeding all over the place trying to hit Aoshi from anywhere, including the back. And whats more Aoshi anticipated a tactic like that enough to guard against it, I found that kind of fun :D But still the choreography was top notch, and I loved the filmwork there!

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Originally Posted by SokiYagami

Yup, that's what I had in mind. Damn, you managed to quote me before I edited my previous comment. XD

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One issue with the counter/reflect tank is that if the core of the job is built around that then in the OT position it would fall flat harder than a 3.0 PLD, and if the core of the job isn't built around that, and only it's mitigation was then it would either be OP or really disjointed (much like PLD is right now). What SAM needs as a tank is a playstyle (like how DRK is built around dark arts, not any kind of gap filling, it just so happens that DRK doesn't have many skills suited to the OT position), not a gap in role purpose.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

One issue with the counter/reflect tank is that if the core of the job is built around that then in the OT position it would fall flat harder than a 3.0 PLD, and if the core of the job isn't built around that, and only it's mitigation was then it would either be OP or really disjointed (much like PLD is right now). What SAM needs as a tank is a playstyle (like how DRK is built around dark arts, not any kind of gap filling, it just so happens that DRK doesn't have many skills suited to the OT position), not a gap in role purpose.

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Yes and no. The counter/reflect mode can be locked within the tank stance and then just go ham on damage with the dps stance. The two stance would need a more dramatic change of the magnitude like that of an AST (as compared to WAR). If done correctly, SAM tank would become the new dps-focus tank and WAR would be like a hybrid of PLD and SAM just like DRK is kinda the in-between of PLD/WAR now. Balance would definitely be a nightmare, but I think it's possible within the current game limits with the new level caps coming in 4.0.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

I was actually trying to find the anime scene, where Kenshin explains to the audience why a wakizashi makes Aoshi virtually untouchable compared to Kenshin. I was quite pleased to find this movie, any idea where I can watch it?

Also yeah, I did kind of forget the shinsengumi were ninjas not samurai x3 Still of note in that clip, Kenshin was speeding all over the place trying to hit Aoshi from anywhere, including the back. And whats more Aoshi anticipated a tactic like that enough to guard against it, I found that kind of fun :D But still the choreography was top notch, and I loved the filmwork there!

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The movie is definitely one of the best anime/manga to movie film I'd ever watched. Sadly there's no way to share without breaking the law, so maybe trying looking for it on Amazon or something? XD

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Originally Posted by SokiYagami

Balance would definitely be a nightmare, but I think it's possible within the current game limits with the new level caps coming in 4.0.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

if the core of the job isn't built around that, and only it's mitigation was then it would either be OP or...

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SE has yet to prove to me that they can balance tanks well this way, and I would rather they didn't push the current meta further, instead destroying it and rebuilding it from the ground up. As for your idea on AST stances, it would make tank swapping impossible, as AST stances lock you into one for the entire fight, and if it didn't on SAM it would be OP.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

SE has yet to prove to me that they can balance tanks well this way, and I would rather they didn't push the current meta further, instead destroying it and rebuilding it from the ground up. As for your idea on AST stances, it would make tank swapping impossible, as AST stances lock you into one for the entire fight, and if it didn't on SAM it would be OP.

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The only reason I mentioned AST is because swapping sects have a pretty large change in terms of play style as compared to switching tank stance, don't take it too literally. And yes, I find it hard to believe SE can actually make it work. It's mostly just theory and ideas for the sake of argument. I still think that SAM have a 50-50 chance of being either a tank or a dps role. Just that if it did turn out to be a tank, it will probably be another blend carbon copy of existing tank instead of how I hope it might be (as a tank).

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

Yeah, that is definitely the realistic approach to it for both fantasy and reality. That's exactly why the argument about samurai never attacking from behind just isn't plausible, especially when you consider this is a video game lol. The guy was also asking for any examples of such attacks, even in fiction, and well... look no further than For Honor.

http://imgur.com/a/7NhKH

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I was actually trying to ask where the community wants a Samurai to stand.

People bring up real life now and it still misses the point... It's an ideal. The failing isn't the code but the person... What you are in the dark.http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...ouAreInTheDark


However i digress, a picture is after all worth a thousand words right?
http://i.imgur.com/8neheds.png

http://i.imgur.com/EJA7ka5.png

I think it was in a Live Letter when Yoshi-P talked about why DRK was a tank, and the reason was that they were thinking about a 2h Sword tank, and there were 2 posibilities; DRK and SAM.

So, if DRK is tank, them SAM should be a DPS unless SE wants a second sank using 2h Swords (or a healer using G.Katanas, like "I have a wound on my arm!" *SAM cuts the arm, wound gone* "Thank you, SAM!").

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

I was actually trying to find the anime scene, where Kenshin explains to the audience why a wakizashi makes Aoshi virtually untouchable compared to Kenshin. I was quite pleased to find this movie, any idea where I can watch it?

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Except that Aoshi don't use Wakizashis, but Kodachis. And it would make it closer to what Ninjas use in FFXIV...and in FFXI, where they were made a tank in the end :p

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

I think it was in a Live Letter when Yoshi-P talked about why DRK was a tank, and the reason was that they were thinking about a 2h Sword tank, and there were 2 posibilities; DRK and SAM.

So, if DRK is tank, them SAM should be a DPS unless SE wants a second sank using 2h Swords (or a healer using G.Katanas, like "I have a wound on my arm!" *SAM cuts the arm, wound gone* "Thank you, SAM!").

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For what it's worth, a 'melee healer' who did its job by running around and splinting broken bones or stitching wounds would be really cool. Not as a samurai, but as a concept in general.

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Originally Posted by Kiteless

For what it's worth, a 'melee healer' who did its job by running around and splinting broken bones or stitching wounds would be really cool. Not as a samurai, but as a concept in general.

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I don't think it was powerful enough to really be a "main" healer, but that's kind of what Dancer was in FFXI.
Using TP to cure the party, or put leech buffs on the enemy, while having access to several enfeebling skills.

well both hands is traditionally a sam skill, beyond some of the weirder ones pre-11 like gil toss(later being a gambler skill), but even then was a massive damaging move. I like the sword tech, cyan version of ff6 alot, though obviously we cant have instant finishers like odins zantetsuken, thatd be op as hell. For what its worth SAM is about as tough to peg on one role as RDM so it will be interesting to see where they go with it.
it could be a tank, or it could be like a drg with its iconic armor being close to either in regards. I think it could function well as either, certainly would be a nasty dps if done right

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

I think it was in a Live Letter when Yoshi-P talked about why DRK was a tank, and the reason was that they were thinking about a 2h Sword tank, and there were 2 posibilities; DRK and SAM.

So, if DRK is tank, them SAM should be a DPS unless SE wants a second sank using 2h Swords (or a healer using G.Katanas, like "I have a wound on my arm!" *SAM cuts the arm, wound gone* "Thank you, SAM!").

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The devs have made zero comments regarding SAM and DRK where them being 2 handed jobs having any kind of factor in the decision for them. They have only ever said SAM was going to be Heavensward's tank until the last minute when they decided to use DRK instead to better match the visual theme of the expansion and because they didn't want to release another eastern themed job so soon after Ninja.

There has never been any comment from them about 2 handed swords being any point of consideration for either job nor their roles.

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

I think it was in a Live Letter when Yoshi-P talked about why DRK was a tank, and the reason was that they were thinking about a 2h Sword tank, and there were 2 posibilities; DRK and SAM.

So, if DRK is tank, them SAM should be a DPS unless SE wants a second sank using 2h Swords (or a healer using G.Katanas, like "I have a wound on my arm!" *SAM cuts the arm, wound gone* "Thank you, SAM!").

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Can honestly see FFXIV SAM not using a Great Katana this time around, but a set of Daishō, utilising both blades. Tank or DPS, I just can't see GK being the thing in XIV's SAM. Just my opinion though.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Except that Aoshi don't use Wakizashis, but Kodachis. And it would make it closer to what Ninjas use in FFXIV...and in FFXI, where they were made a tank in the end :p

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Ah, you're right x3 It's been a while since I watched the anime sadly, I'm gonna give the movie a watch once I save up $70 for the Blu-Ray set. Also interesting to note is Aoshi was technically a ninja not a samurai x3 NIN tank ftw

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Originally Posted by Kiteless

For what it's worth, a 'melee healer' who did its job by running around and splinting broken bones or stitching wounds would be really cool. Not as a samurai, but as a concept in general.

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My problem with melee healers...go heal briny mirror in Leviathan and then come back and say how cool melee healing is D: The healer would also need to be able to eat cleaves somehow, and also fast enough to hit other party members who need heals. In solo healing content they'd either be brokenly fast, brokenly durable, or brokenly useless as I can see :<

Scouting gear is a thing because they wanted ROG/NIN to be it's own kind of role, despite sharing similar role traits with MNK.

However, Samurai would likely fall under a category. If a tank, they would go under Fending. If they are a DPS, then very likely they would be thrown into Maiming with DRG.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

My problem with melee healers...go heal briny mirror in Leviathan and then come back and say how cool melee healing is D: The healer would also need to be able to eat cleaves somehow, and also fast enough to hit other party members who need heals. In solo healing content they'd either be brokenly fast, brokenly durable, or brokenly useless as I can see :<

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Melee healers don't heal in melee, just their ressource generating/Regeneration or damage skills would be melee. Heals would mostly work like all other heals.

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Originally Posted by Legion88

Melee healers don't heal in melee, just their ressource generating/Regeneration or damage skills would be melee. Heals would mostly work like all other heals.

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So it's a melee dps with healer spells?

It...sounds like a gimmicky white mage as described :<

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

So it's a melee dps with healer spells?

It...sounds like a gimmicky white mage as described :<

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If you take it like that we have 3 caster dps with healer spells and 1 of them has a light focus on support abilities in addition. So exciting...
And for SCH the term "caster dps with healer spells/abilities" is like his definition...

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

The healer would also need to be able to eat cleaves somehow

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Why ? Do MNK, DRG and NIN eat cleaves ? Being in melee range doesn't require you to be in front of the boss. It just means you'll have some weapon skills that will help you builds healing power or ressources that you'll spend to heal the party.
As for fast healing, if it uses TP instead of MP, we might assume that all those heals would be instant.

RDM if was a healer and a melee healer then maybe a reraise spell would be handy. I'd rather have the Dancer be a healer tbh.

Do people seriously want Highlander Samurai? Aren't Highlander Monks silly enough? Wouldn't you rather wait for the next expansion after this one, like maybe one that includes Doma?

Samurai should just not be in Stormblood. That means they won't come out until maybe Summer or Fall or Winter 2019.

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Originally Posted by Waaltar

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I think highlander samurais would be pretty badass. Besides, Au'Ras were added in HW when it centers around Ishgard, and as far as I know they aren't very tied together.