The Case For or Against Cross-World Dungeons

I'm torn between this subject, personally.

Pros
+Easier parties
+No more shouting

Cons
-Possibility of becoming completely detached from your server
-servers being meaningless

Honestly, the cons would be the fault of the playerbase. Just like Abyssea in FFXI. Abyssea itself wasn't terrible, but what it did to the community was bad. That's my fear for this game. Though I'm not going to outright say no, because a LFG would be a godsend for Ifrit/Darkhold/etc.

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Originally Posted by Ruisu

I'm torn between this subject, personally.

Pros
+Easier parties
+No more shouting

Cons
-Possibility of becoming completely detached from your server
-servers being meaningless

Honestly, the cons would be the fault of the playerbase. Just like Abyssea in FFXI. Abyssea itself wasn't terrible, but what it did to the community was bad. That's my fear for this game. Though I'm not going to outright say no, because a LFG would be a godsend for Ifrit/Darkhold/etc.

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I can see it now...

Ok, so who knows the Ifrit fight.. raise your flag!

you: /

...
......
........

1 person: I know the fight! I've just never beaten it! We got him down to 50% though!!)$!

......

You: Ok, well that's fine... who has Sentinel for Hellfire and Chain Spell + Raise incase people die during it? Flag!

You: /

.....
.......

2 person: My shield skill isn't leveled sorry and I'm a melee I refuse to play mage!

3 person: Well me and the other healer have raise, we can pick up people that die

/facepalm

All should be good and fine when jobs comes out *cross fingers here*

I've been reading around the forums about what the community thinks of a Cross Server Content Finder (i specificly chose to use this term because Yoshi-P always referred to a Content Finder rather then just a Dungeon Finder). But, I honestly don't understand what all the fuss is about when it comes to Cross Server Content.

I remember a time where i wanted to level my Dragoon in FFXI and halfway to 75 a patch was released which nerfed the Dragoon in such a way that nobody wanted to form a party with me. There were other jobs that would deal a lot more damage then a Dragoon, or at least had more "use" with a party. The same would apply for my Puppetmaster. On my server, Puppetmasters, Dancers, Dragoons and Thiefs would have to wait hours on end and still not get an invite (or enough players to form a party).

I do not have the luxury to wait for hours before getting a party started, nor do i want to waste my time "waiting" for a party to form. Fortunately there were other jobs i wanted to play as well, so i never really had to wait for hours in order to do things in the game.

However, when i was playing WoW i never had any problems on getting a party in order to take on the Dungeons because of the Dungeon Finder. Sure, most of the time i would be playing with complete strangers from other servers, but at least i was doing something i wanted to do. If i was lucky and members from the Guild wouldn't mind tagging along, i would even have familiar faces in my party when tackling a dungeon. For me, compared to forming parties in FFXI, was a win-win situation for me.

Ofcourse, the Dungeon Finder had it's drawbacks. But, like Ruisu mentioned in his post, it's mostly for the fault of the playerbase. Because it was a lot easier to form a party and tackle a dungeon, people would get a lot more... Let's say... Arrogant. Impatient. On a regular basis, if the dungeon finder would assign us to a dungeon like "The Oculus", the tank would leave the group within seconds resulting in us having to wait for another tank. Rage quitting a dungeon was also very popular.

But, still... Is it "fair" to put the blame on the Dungeon Finder alone? There were plenty of other people who actually put some effort in those dungeon runs. Which brings me back to FFXI. Is it "fair" to put the blame on "Seek party"/"Form party" system in FFXI because some jobs where isolated from parties and would have to wait for hours before getting a party together?

Both systems have their pro's and con's. And these pro's and con's will most likely be determined by the playerbase if these systems were to be implemented in FFXIV as well.

In my honest opinion, it would be good to have a "Seek Party" system as well as a "Dungeon Finder" in FFXIV so that players can chose which of the two they prefer. Plus, since Yoshi-P keeps on calling it a "Content Finder", it would be presumable that it will be used for more then just dungeons. F.i. Primal Battles, (Company) Quests, the "Crystal Tower", Empire Strongholds, etc.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

I wasn't asking about people from another server, though. I was asking about three of us on the same server (Server A). You, me, and that guy over there choco to the geographic location of the dungeon. The dungeon has a light party minimum (4). At that point what are our options?

• Can we shout for a fourth player on our server and have them choco to us?
• Does the fourth even have to choco to our location?
• Can we three amigos go into the queue as a party, and say we are looking for a fourth from another server?
• Would we have any advantage in the queue since we at the geographical location of the dungeon?
• Would a party even have access to that dungeon's queue if they are outside that dungeon's zone?
• What happens when the only other people in the queue are parties also only looking for a fourth?

I know it's alot of questions. But what I'm looking to understand is how the other MMO's cross-server systems address these questions. IF cross-server dungeons are inevitable in FFXIV, I would like to think we can learn from the mistakes of other games and try and shape it so that we can avoid the horror stories associated with those systems.

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In the case of a light party situation and having 3 people in a party already you have these options (this is based on WoW's dungeon finder and there is no way of knowing if FFXIV's will be as functional)

• You can add a fourth member from your server/your LS and have him/her come to you.
• You can add a fourth member and use the dungeon finder to have everyone teleported to that dungeon regardless of where you are in the world.
• You can join the queue as a 3 man party to look for the 4th member.
• Your 3 man party can enter the dungeon and then use the dungeon finder to find the 4th person. (this works in WoW but may not in FF14)

Hard to say if you would get an advantage, I'm not really sure how this works and obviously its all dependent on how the dev team program it.

Yes the party could use the dungeon finder outside the dungeon (in wow's cause inside as well)

If all the other parties in the queue are also semi formed then you have to wait for the right class/job/role to come along, its very unlikely this will happen, even more so on FF14 due to the international nature of the game there is generally always people playing which will increase the chances of finding people to form parties with especially at odd hours.

I sincerely doubt they would set it up to use the Archetype tags (Tank/Attacker/Caster/Healer etc) to restrict the dungeon finder. It's most likely so if you start a party you can say "I am looking for a Tank" and someone would be able to join your party on a relevant class.

Like Jinko has said, you will still be able to do dungeons and things with only a party from your server just by heading there like normal. You'd be able to use the dungeon finder to fill whatever spots you needed if necessary.

You need to grab a dreamcast, travel back in time and play PSO. The greatest mmorpg ever.

I am definitely in favor of cross-server dungeons because from the experience I have with WoW it really does make the game more enjoyable by facilitating the ability to just get on and do something. That being said, I sympathize with the concerns of a loss of community and server identity. I think the best way to preserve server identity would be to prioritize grouping with people all from the same server. So the auto-grouper would only group you with people from your server and if there for some reason weren't enough people to make a full group it will then pull from other servers.

This would put the people together who likely would have found each other through shouts anyway and then if there weren't enough people that wanted to do it on the server it would not stop the group from doing what they want to do.

I like that idea berndherbert, hopefully they do this.

This is not a discussion point, content finder is happening whether you like it or not, and I am very happy about it, like I imagine the majority of players are or should be. After all it is just an option so if you really against it, just ffs dont hit the button and continue to shout in uldah for a few hours to group with "like-minded" players

In 2011, I should not have to "work" to form a party or "wait" long periods of time to get the content I want done.

If I want to do party content, I click the "get me party content" button and wait a max of 10 minutes for the game to give it to me. I say "No, thanks" to being stuck 7/8 for half an hour shouting for a healer... eww...

About the people you get grouped with being bad, rude, silent, etc... The reality is, people remember their bad experiences more than their good ones. The fact is the majority of content finder parties in WoW are good enough to clear the instance. Also, stupidly easy content (hi WoW) can promote bad attitudes, why communicate with these ppl when I can run this dungeon without even looking at screen. I am sure a content finder party for Darkhold would have players talking to each other, besides I think in general the FF community is much friendlier to each other than in WoW.

But anyway! At the end of the day, if you are unhappy for any reason with your party, you can just leave and hit the button again, oh and the content finder will even find you a replacement so everyone is happy

But isn't the FFXI/FFXIV community and the WoW community essentially the same group of people? Isn't the goal of SE to get people who play other MMOs to play this one instead? If so, if a feature elicits a certain behavior in that community, wouldn't an identical feature elicit the same behavior in ours?

You're just thinking too much about it.

At the end of the day, you will have good or bad parties, same with getting random people on your server.

The only difference is that you will have to wait for a lot less time before you can start doing what you want to.

yeah at this point i welcome instanced and server wide invites. 1. the servers are empty and 2. even when they are full it is just easier to put things together with way more players to do it with. right now when it comes to "endgame" it's only 8man or 4 man stuff and reality check is in most ls your a pug in your own shell. this might be ok for some but not for everyone. specially those who actually put in the time to play.

also it is good for weird hours of the nite, specially if they plan to do seperate servers, at least then we can still play with the jp and other countries threw this system. in fact i'd go as far as saying stuff like strongholds should go instanced if not open world instanced at the least but with world server connecting. (have a number of players b4 the next batch get pushed to the next instance or something)

while i want open world stuff too, but if it's not a full linkshell event, then it needs to be easy to run and easy to get people together at any time of day. only bad part maybe is the disconnection some people might feel, or the thought of being ganked of gear and some dude on diff server doesn't care, but these are things need to be fixed by SE to not be able to happen.

i don't really see any other bad issues with this. though i don't see stuff like salvage being done threw this method. yeah it can be done but really static groups is what is needed. but again this method will just make it easier to put a static together long as you don't get rejects witch are on all servers.

Lol @ people thinking cross server will take less time to get parties. The only players that will get fast parties are healers & tanks. All dd will be left sitting upwards to 30-1hr waiting for a party due to the large amount seeking compared to healers & tanks. I'm just going by experience from other certain games, so take it for what it is.

they should still make it a system where someone can put it together themselves the same way you would on same server. rather then it only being auto group, so it lets you not wait and make your own group if want to as well. plus i think the other games that have this you can add them to friends list? then group with them instantly too?

I am all for the cross server group finder. I will be using it, and many people that are against it will use it too, and probably end up loving it. The reason it is cross server and not server specific is so there is a larger pool of players to pull from. Having it cross server will also open up the potential for grouping up with friends on other servers, say, people you meet on the forums, or friends that may transfer servers later.

This is a dungeon finder, not an open world content finder, so I don't really see how this would make the open world any more of a lobby than it already would be. The only difference will be that you won't have to stand in town half AFK for 4 hours waiting for a party, or shouting. I don't see how this is a bad thing, really. Also, people are forgetting free companies which by the sound of it really encourage playing with your fellow company members. It looks like free company content will have plenty of perks such as the housing system mentioned and the primal summoning system.

If people think that the content finder will ruin the game, they seem extremely ignorant on the matter to me.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

But isn't the FFXI/FFXIV community and the WoW community essentially the same group of people? Isn't the goal of SE to get people who play other MMOs to play this one instead? If so, if a feature elicits a certain behavior in that community, wouldn't an identical feature elicit the same behavior in ours?

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THAT'S tthe very thing i'm afraid of...and frankly it will happen, there's no avoiding it, because they said it's coming. so the best we can do is just brace ourselves, strap down and just hope they don't say "i'm going in dry." yeah we'll get content done faster, but i'd rather just not deal with the negative aspects, and frankly if nobody on YOUR server wants to do things with YOU...it's not them that possibly has the problem.

And at this point if you've been playing long enough you should have an LS (unless you bot or just fly solo as a preference) and if you can't get anyone in your own ls to do things with you so you aren't waiting around 4+ hours....see last sentence from above statement. yes even with an LS it probably takes hours to get stuff done...but i'd like to think it's just impatience and really poor time management on our parts.

bottom line, it doens't matter if you, i, we, us, are for, against, or undecided, it's happening...can't fight the future.

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Originally Posted by Hanemakikaze

Lol @ people thinking cross server will take less time to get parties. The only players that will get fast parties are healers & tanks. All dd will be left sitting upwards to 30-1hr waiting for a party due to the large amount seeking compared to healers & tanks. I'm just going by experience from other certain games, so take it for what it is.

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it will take less time than shouting,thats for sure

I was playing WoW when they implemented it there. I hated it. It's one of the (many) reasons why I quit the game. It destroys accountability. It did bad things to the sense of community on the server. The sense of world scale was neutralized (I could run dungeons that I had no idea where they were in the game world). It turned the top level into more of a lobby game than an MMORPG.

In short, I'm really not looking forward to seeing it here.

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Originally Posted by Dreamer

I was playing WoW when they implemented it there. I hated it. It's one of the (many) reasons why I quit the game. It destroys accountability. It did bad things to the sense of community on the server. The sense of world scale was neutralized (I could run dungeons that I had no idea where they were in the game world). It turned the top level into more of a lobby game than an MMORPG.

In short, I'm really not looking forward to seeing it here.

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That about sums up what will most likely happen, that was a main reason I had quit also. A terrible community got even worse, and seemingly large scale world turned to nothing because you just get teleported to your party. But, I'm gonna just save final judgement after it's actually released, hopefully it's not gonna dumb down the game too much, community wise & gameplay wise.

People seem to be assuming they are taking WoW's system directly. That is an assumption that I will not be making since we actually have very little information on the mechanics. It may be that it just puts you in a group and that you then still have to walk to the dungeon and only once you are inside can you actually see people from other servers and that would solve the issue of people loosing track of dungeon placement within the world. There is certainly a way that Square can introduce an auto-group feature that allows people to retain server-identity, the scope of the world, and that preserves accountability. I guess my point is that people in this thread are criticizing WoW's auto-group system which is a straw man argument considering we are discussing FFXIV's future system that we know very little about.

This comes from the perspective of extensive experience in the WoW LFG.

Pros:
-allows people to find a group very easily and quickly
-makes it easier for low levels

These are admittingly good things. Making a party within your guild can be very tough, with people constantly on different schedules.

Cons:
-easy for people to act however they want because of anonymity
-breaks down server community
-breaks down common courtesy
-breaks down use of the "world"
-forces the idea of set roles and set ways to play (tank, healer, etc.)
-easy for people to take advantage of others (4 people que in with you, do almost the whole dungeon, and then drop you to bring in their friend so he can get the credit. Also ninja loot, etc, etc).

I consider LFGs to kinda be like mmo welfare. If you want quality play, you really need to find your own group. Otherwise, it's just a gamble on what you will end up with. If it didn't affect the rest of the community, I wouldn't be too concerned about it, but the truth is it does. And this is coming from someone that would benefit from it.

A typical random in WoW goes like this: You cue in, and quickly try to orientate yourself on where you are and who you are playing with. If you are lucky, the tank grunts to see if everyone is ready. However, usually he just takes off and half the DPS or more follows. We run through the dungeon at a breakneck pace. There is no chance for anyone, much less someone new, to get a chance to take in their surroundings (in the timed dungeons we have here, this might not be a bad thing though).

If someone gets a chance, and is brave (because people new at things typically aren't), they might pipe up and say they are new and need help. This might get them some patience from the others, or it might get them kicked. You must be very careful to do what your role requires. If you don't play like everyone thinks you should, you might get kicked. If your dps isn't high enough, you can't take every monster in the room as tank, or you can't heal entire health bars in one shot, you might get kicked. If they don't like your gear, you might get kicked (I'm leary of addons for these reasons as well). I have witnessed examples of all of these, usually without a single bit of warning to the kickee.

If we make it through to the end (I've been a part of more failed starts than I care to remember), and if there isn't a fight over ninja looting or some such, then everyone leaves. They usually do not say goodbye. If anyone does actually say anything through the whole thing, it's usually very rude, if not downright vulgar. Of course, it's not like this every time, but the higher level you get, the worse it gets.

This attitude I described, eventually does leak into the game. WoW notoriously has one of the worst communities of mmo gaming. Is it directly because of the LFG? No. But does it feed it? Yes. After getting done with one dungeon, people immediately que up for another, like running back in line for a roller coaster. It is completely unnecessary to interact with a single person, or step outside a single city, to make it through the game.

If SE doesn't want to see this kind of thing plaguing their game, they will need to come up with ways to counteract it. I think there is a such thing as being too convenient. At the very least, I think a blacklist is needed. I'd even like to see the opposite, a "green list" for people you enjoyed playing with, so that if you both que up again, you would get joined up in the same group. I also think maybe there should be a lockout after successfully completing a dungeon, or a limit on how many randoms you can do in one day perhaps. This would cause people to need to actually do other things, and would be healthier for the game environment overall, I think. The aid of the finder would be there for people needing it, but it would cut down on the abuse of it, plus help keep people from completing content too quickly, which is a growing problem in mmos.

double post :(

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My question is ... why does it have to be cross-world?? What is the added in player benefit of making it cross-world instead of keeping it native-world?

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higher chance of people wanting to do what you want to do. and when server hit high & lows in population there will always be people & LAG during the high season

you also have a chance to start making party,s and not use cross-world dungeon functions. i prefer not wait/make party,s for hours. true story: i remembered lvling redmage while making my party's and a bluemage begged me to join my party and said he "didnt find any exp party,s for monthes". now i would be sad if cross-world dungeon functions is not being implemented. tbh lets not kid ourselves and say the "community quality will crumble because of cross-dungeons", there are many ninja-looters. asshats. retards in every server that a community will do nothing about. the best thing if you encountered these individuals is why not blacklist them so you can never see them again?

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Originally Posted by Chezen

If SE doesn't want to see this kind of thing plaguing their game, they will need to come up with ways to counteract it. I think there is a such thing as being too convenient. At the very least, I think a blacklist is needed. I'd even like to see the opposite, a "green list" for people you enjoyed playing with, so that if you both que up again, you would get joined up in the same group.

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Great post. Chezen nails the pros and cons as I see them.

I want good seek/search party formation tools with an auto-grouping content finder as a supplement.

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Originally Posted by neizero

But anyway! At the end of the day, if you are unhappy for any reason with your party, you can just leave and hit the button again, oh and the content finder will even find you a replacement so everyone is happy

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This is the type of attitude a content finder fosters.

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Originally Posted by DNO

I do NOT want to look for a party for hours....

If this is ANYWAY sovles the horrid that was ff11 in this matter then DOOOO ETTTT!!!!.

/thread

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I might as well just quote what i was going to post. I don't think it could be a bad thing unless drops are the main topic at hand, but cross-world or not, drops will always be an issue. Making dungeons cross-server will just make it easier to do as many runs as you'd like.

Even in the current state of the game, I've never spent hours looking for a party. An influx of new players combined with a more intuitive party building system will cure most of the problems people have mentioned.

They have annouced that cross-serger grouping is coming, but the have not specified what they will do for grouping or how they plan to implement it. They have not indicated whether they will use a dungeon finder model, but it sure appears to be likely.

I know that some have said that they are welcoming this feature, but I hope they offer an alternative manner of grouping similar to the FFXI model. This allowed you to choose from your server community and set up the party how you liked because, like it or not, there are people who you did not want to party with.

Honestly, I dont want a party with 3 dragoons, 2 pups, 1 bst, 1 warrior and a dancer healing.

There is a sense of community on a server when you get to know people and recognize them. I'd rather have the choice to not use a dungeon finder. Players should have different options other than always having to wait on your friends availability or grouping with total strangers. The single server based grouping model encouraged interaction between players. There were groups that you could join if you were on different jobs. You could choose to start the party yourself.

With the /seacom feature, you could describe your characters gear and knowledge or the fact that you even used food to enhance your play. Those were important when forming parties.

Do we really need another MMO with a dungeon finder? Hasn't that been done before? I really don't look forward to playing Final Fantasy when its instanced dungeons and a cloned dungeon finder.

I don't see the downside.
Casual players can get parties.
Players with active LS can go with their LS.

What seems to be the issue? Allowing people easier access to a dungeon isn't restricting anyone from forming a party the old fashioned way.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

Is Producer/Director Yoshida's plan to implement cross-world dungeons a good idea? What are the positive benefits? What are the negative repercussions?

I've been asking myself these questions for the last couple weeks. My MMO instincts tell me that this is a bad idea. My personal friends who play World Of Warcraft tell me that it ruined that game for them. The few comments that I have seen on these forums on the subject seem to be violently negative.

But I feel like I'm only getting half of the story. Producer/Director Yoshida seems to be very much in favor of this system, but he doesn't really explain why, or demonstrate what the gameplayer will gain when such a system is implemented. Can anyone in the community see any merit for implementing cross-world dungeons?

I'm looking to start an open and honest discussion taking both sides of the argument into account. But if we can't figure out any positive benefit for cross-world servers, then we need to let Producer/Director Yoshida know in no uncertain terms that we do not want it implemented.

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The pros of cross server instancing (to me) is increasing the selection pool of players interested in the same content at that level range. For low population servers and lonely time zones, this is great! If you're looking for population from your own server, you would assemble a party as done now or the search tool to find parties.

Drawback, making friends (or enemies) cross server and having no decent way to keep up comms or link up again (or avoid linking up again).

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Originally Posted by Buuul

I don't see the downside.
Casual players can get parties.
Players with active LS can go with their LS.

What seems to be the issue? Allowing people easier access to a dungeon isn't restricting anyone from forming a party the old fashioned way.

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People will find any excuse they can to justify forcing you to play their way and their way only. Plain and simple. For some people, if they don't like something, nobody can have it. Plus, WoW has it so its bad off the bat to some people.

There is no case, it was already decided and work started. Period. Close Thread.

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Originally Posted by Chezen

If someone gets a chance, and is brave (because people new at things typically aren't), they might pipe up and say they are new and need help. This might get them some patience from the others, or it might get them kicked. You must be very careful to do what your role requires. If you don't play like everyone thinks you should, you might get kicked. If your dps isn't high enough, you can't take every monster in the room as tank, or you can't heal entire health bars in one shot, you might get kicked. If they don't like your gear, you might get kicked (I'm leary of addons for these reasons as well). I have witnessed examples of all of these, usually without a single bit of warning to the kickee.

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Play properly, don't leech, don't be constantly AFK, do the best you can with the gear you have, and I guarantee you noone will want to kick you. Is this really too much to ask?

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Originally Posted by neizero

Play properly, don't leech, don't be constantly AFK, do the best you can with the gear you have, and I guarantee you noone will want to kick you. Is this really too much to ask?

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It's as Chezen said, it has happened before even with the standards you have suggested and it's a behavior that expands across all MMOs. It only takes the party leader to want to kick you.

The play properly ties into the party's patience with you as well, i.e. someone new to MMOs not knowing about crowd control so they never think to ask, not knowing about enmity, knowing that some enemies retaliate violently after weapon skills, going from solo to party.

I personally would have and have had the patience for anyone if they're doing what you've suggested plus behave in a civil or respectful manner.

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Originally Posted by Fiosha_Maureiba

It's as Chezen said, it has happened before even with the standards you have suggested and it's a behavior that expands across all MMOs. It only takes the party leader to want to kick you.

The play properly ties into the party's patience with you as well, i.e. someone new to MMOs not knowing about crowd control so they never think to ask, not knowing about enmity, knowing that some enemies retaliate violently after weapon skills, going from solo to party.

I personally would have and have had the patience for anyone if they're doing what you've suggested plus behave in a civil or respectful manner.

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This happens whether its cross-server or not. If you get kicked, just do another search. Its that simple.

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Originally Posted by neizero

Play properly, don't leech, don't be constantly AFK, do the best you can with the gear you have, and I guarantee you noone will want to kick you. Is this really too much to ask?

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That only works on paper when you're playing with assholes. And there will most likely be much more compared to right now once this is put in. Honestly though, I don't see why the argument is even still going neither side has a damn clue how it will work, should just wait till it's in game before arguing that it's such an awesome addition. And even though Chezen up there is telling the truth people get angry over stuff like that, that they don't want to hear just because of the fact everyone doesn't want it to be true doesn't mean it won't, kind of ridiculous.

And people comparing it only to WoW are also ridiculous, there are plenty more games that have a similar mechanic and the same thing happens on each, it's nothing new, it's not news and it's kind of pointless to argue it. So yeah, just wait for it to actually be released and then give a valid argument to counter that highly likely statement.

Not to put rose-colored glasses on and blow sunshine up the community's collective arse, but one of the positive side effects of having a long, difficult, and frustrating party building system was that a party leader tried minimizing having to do it repeatedly. In FFXI, it was in the party's interest to teach and train a sub-par player how best to perform their role, because the alternative was to wait for an hour or more for a different player. Make no mistake ... kicks did occur. But it was not over trivial matters. The replacement cost to the party would have been too great. This side effect led to a legion of competent players being taught and trained over 7 seven years from newbie to veteran.

Everyone has seen the new MW3 ad on TV, right? It's one of the better video game ads out there ... for various reasons. But one of those reasons (whether it is true or not), is that it shows a veteran player taking a newbie under his wing and teaching him the ropes ... "Watch and learn". By the end of the ad, the newbie becomes as good of a player as the veteran. It's almost touching.

What if the ad was instead of a veteran kicking newbies from his squad until he found the partner that suited him? Probably would be a less fun ad, no?

This discussion is not only "for" or "against" and here is why. It also to explore the "why". If we as a community can get to the heart of why "this" is good, but "that" is bad we can ask Produce/Director to implement features that mitigate or eliminate the bad, while keeping the good.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

snip

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Agreed.

Also, I was thinking... when a person's team is nothing but the equivilent of AI's to them, there is 0 reason for them to care. If I log in to the tank taking off to the next room, he is obviously not a team player. A good team leader/player will check his group, ask if everyone has done the dungeon, allow people to give out buffs, etc. LFGs do not foster team play, they just make it possible for people to complete content.