Make Stone Sky Sea mandatory

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Originally Posted by Underdog2204

Want to guarentee good players for something? Then build a netword of contacts with good players you meet on your server...

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This is only doable if people want to improve themselves to then be able to join such networks. Unfortunatly, these people are a minority. So, your network will reach a limit quite quickly, and the "bad players issue" won't be solved at all.

Making a "network of good players" will only feed disparity and hate from a group of players to another. Bad players will despise good players for being so "elitists", and good players will despise bad players who don't want to improve.

Hahahahaha, na just na

But then how would you sell clears?

Hm...SSS does need some more features to become useful though. If there were more of a grading scale as oppose to pass/fail?

Then people could use it more for vetting, as in you must score above 'B' on SSS. Something to that affect...

I'd be perfectly fine with SSS being mandatory to queue for things in the duty finder. It would make the duty finder community way less trash.

Premade parties should still be as it is now though.

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Originally Posted by Underdog2204

It's not a bad thing but it's just not necessary.

Yet to see why having "No bonus" etc groups we have now arn't working to the point warrant any changes like this. Want to guarentee good players for something? Then build a netword of contacts with good players you meet on your server... It's not hard to do so long as you yourself are good enough for them to want you around too.

The issue is there are two end of the scale, my side that sucks it up and just gets over it and the other that wants everyone to play by their rules to "fix" it whilst at the same point not actually fixing anything.

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I'm not harboring any illusions of "fixing" anything. I just don't think it's a cardinal sin to allow players more tools to set up groups with a higher chance of success by eliminating the potential to recruit consistently underperforming players. It's not a matter of wanting people to "play by my rules" or anything like that, it's just that I like to actually succeed at content with a group of people who all perform at a reasonably high skill level, as that's the kind of group play that I enjoy. I don't care if other people are fine grouping up with whoever - nowhere am I advocating taking that ability away from them. But just like with the "Allow a filter to keep noobs out of PF farm parties" thread from ages ago, I really do think that it's acceptable to allow people to have some measure of filtering out players with SOME indication of good/bad performance. The problem is that underperformers (or people who chronically believe that they're underperforming) get really anxious about this because they know most parties are going to have that filter up and the idea of being excluded from something really bothers them for some reason, even though it's nothing personal.

For the record, "no bonus" doesn't always work if there are multiple people who haven't cleared the content yet. It's a bit unfair that a group is expected to disband entirely because a few players can't be bothered to be honest. A "clear" could also mean that said player was dead on the floor the entire time, whereas incidentally asking them to post logs (if parsers were allowed) would show not only how much DPS they did, but how many times they died during the fight, as well. This isn't really a parser debate, but something to keep in mind on the subject of player performance barometers in general.

People will just pay someone else to do it for them like what happened with WoW and proving grounds.

I would make it mandatory for the DPS, people pulling out below 1k at lvl 60 make it impossible to do some stuff, it's like they are spamming 1,2,3 and without a proper order. I have the hope that it will make the people read at least once the descriptions of their skills.

No, this ruins the fun atmosphere of the game. So what if we're not all pros. Let us have fun anyway.

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

No, this ruins the fun atmosphere of the game. So what if we're not all pros. Let us have fun anyway.

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As long as it doesn't mean ruining other players time by doing the bare minimum, yes let's have fun.

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Make Stone Sky Sea mandatory

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I know, man, I know. But it's never gonna happen. Look at this thread, just look. Never gonna happen, man.

The title of this thread just read/sounds like some Trump slogan every time I have to read it. This game already has one too many lock-outs on content than it should. So it does not need one just to fulfill the jollies of some parser junkies.

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Originally Posted by Natashio

The title of this thread just read/sounds like some Trump slogan every time I have to read it. This game already has one too many lock-outs on content than it should. So it does not need one just to fulfill the jollies of some parser junkies.

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SSS is set to the minimum DPS required to clear the fight, not for pulling epeen numbers. Clearing the SSS dummy would just mean that you are able to pass the DPS check as long as you play decently. There's realistically no harm in requiring it, if you can't pass the SSS dummy you can't clear the fight anyway. If you want, go try and do the A9S Savage dummy when you unlock it, they're not as hard as you think.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

SSS is set to the minimum DPS required to clear the fight, not for pulling epeen numbers. Clearing the SSS dummy would just mean that you are able to pass the DPS check as long as you play decently. There's realistically no harm in requiring it, if you can't pass the SSS dummy you can't clear the fight anyway. If you want, go try and do the A9S Savage dummy when you unlock it, they're not as hard as you think.

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Hmm... I read from someone else earlier in this thread saying that the DPS is set higher that minimum, to take in the effect that there are mechanics to avoid and such.

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Originally Posted by Atoli

...SSS is set to a higher requirement though, since it accounts for having to do mechanics, evade aoes, etc. in the actual fight...

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Not sure if this person speaks the truth or not. But reading these two different statements on how SSS dps check works makes me wonder, how does it actually work?

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Originally Posted by Evergrey

Hmm... I read from someone else earlier in this thread saying that the DPS is set higher that minimum, to take in the effect that there are mechanics to avoid and such.

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That's the minimum, it's not like you can go into a fight and have the option to just stand there and DPS (unless it's A1S Faust).

Mhm, I see. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

This is a terrible idea.

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Judging by your simplistic response, I feel like this system would be designed for you and the 43 others who have Liked your post as of now. :) If you're worried about being gated out of content, then you better nut up and git gud.

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Originally Posted by LunaFaye

You're aware that some people even if they are capable of beating the dummy, still need to be carried via pf, df, raid finder, fc, group of friends etc? I don't wanna waste my time going in there, beat it and get told what I already knew... Pointless request.

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This is exactly what he's referring to by a "probation period." If you prove you can at least hit your buttons in the correct order, you make it to the next stage of being in the party which is proving you can jump rope while hitting your buttons in a mostly correct order. If you can't even crawl, why would we want you to walk or run with us?

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Originally Posted by Fyce

This is only doable if people want to improve themselves to then be able to join such networks. Unfortunatly, these people are a minority. So, your network will reach a limit quite quickly, and the "bad players issue" won't be solved at all.

Making a "network of good players" will only feed disparity and hate from a group of players to another. Bad players will despise good players for being so "elitists", and good players will despise bad players who don't want to improve.

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This is the exact cause of the "lack of PF parties" I see complaints about all the time. I've done this. I'm in multiple LS of people who do care about improving and can get content cleared. I rarely start party finder parties and would rather run with people I know have the same mindset. Maybe if people were more open to advice, they would be able to find parties instead of complaining about a dead party finder. Nobody is obliged to carry anyone else through a fight.

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Originally Posted by Klamor

Judging by your simplistic response, I feel like this system would be designed for you and the 43 others who have Liked your post as of now. :) If you're worried about being gated out of content, then you better nut up and git gud.

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Eh, I'm cool with making it an optional checkbox in the PF and not a compulsory thing. I don't have any issues with doomed parties taking up instance slots for difficult content or anything like that, so long as everyone's having a good time. But I do think there's a very real fear of a lot of players discovering they don't really measure up, and that's why so many people are against this idea. It's not a crime to suck at a video game, ffs, but you really shouldn't expect everyone to let you ride along for some of the hardest content it offers, either.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I don't want a parser for clear or farm party finder groups, personally. I just want a parser to evaluate myself and my team accurately. I think that the reasoning against a parser is misguided and ill-conceived.

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Exactly this. I don't want to bully anyone, having hard numbers behind how well I'm doing shows me whether I need to improve or not. Of course it doesn't tell me HOW to improve, but it's still very useful.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

That's the minimum, it's not like you can go into a fight and have the option to just stand there and DPS (unless it's A1S Faust).

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You do not need to have the same DPS as on the dummy in the actual fight to clear DPS checks. Also, while having to do mechanics drops your DPS, buffs/debuffs on the boss from other partymembers raise it.
What SSS tells you is basically just "If you can do this much DMG whithout mechanics, you'll be fine in the actual fight unless you COMPLETELY derp out". It's not a guarantee to be able to clear it if you can beat the dummy nor is it a guarantee you will fail it if you can't beat it.
Most recent example: Nidhogg EX because I still have the numbers in my head of a recent parse; everyone else was doing 200-1000 DPS below what the dummy requires to be beaten and yet DPS was not a problem in the fight at all.
So the dummies already plan in a drop in DPS due to boss mechanics and the like.

I really cannot grasp why people don’t want this.

I get that it shouldn’t be for all duties, but if it was only applied to roulettes (excluding leveling roulette) I think it would be fine. That way, new players who are doing the dungeons individually and leveling through roulette wouldn’t have a barrier to entry.
WoW did a similar thing (in WoD. Can’t speak for legion) where if you wanted to play with randoms you had to prove you weren’t bad. And you know how people reacted? All those who passed to test loved it. I’ll admit I sucked at it. I couldn’t for the life of my complete it. But I persevered, and I finally completed it.

I improved my skills, something you don’t seem to want to do.

Heroic dungeons were a breeze and enjoyable because all you had to worry about was mechanics, not if the warrior sucked. Yes there was an outcry from the bad players and yes they were loud. But would you want to play with a floor kissing healer?
I believe SSS should be like Proving grounds were in WoW. Tanks had to tank, healers had to heal and dps had to dps. Gear wasn’t a big factor as you were scaled down (or up) moderately.

Your arguments are that it’s the mechanics that kill people, so what? If you can’t pass SSS then you shouldn’t be in the duty with random people who are good enough.

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Originally Posted by Enur

I really cannot grasp why people don’t want this.

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For EX trials and raids, I can neither. Those are tuned for pretty good performance, so it makes sense to test whether you are good enough for your own sake.
For roulettes? I'd say it's pointless. Those are tuned so low, the dummy is pretty much a formality at that point.

I'd also like to note that WoW has been bleeding almost 2 million subs each expansion since Cataclysm (And stopped reporting entirely at 5,6 mill for damage control). I'd be somewhat cautious going into a similar direction as WoW did post WotLK.

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Originally Posted by Enur

I really cannot grasp why people don’t want this.

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because it'll show people that they're bad and it'll hurt their feelings, instead of taking it as a sign that they need to improve

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Originally Posted by Enur

I really cannot grasp why people don’t want this.

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Because there's no point to it. A player who passes SSS will still wipe a raid if they can't do mechanics. For the vast, VAST majority of players, enrage is NOT the thing that wipes the group - it's failing the dance.

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Your arguments are that it’s the mechanics that kill people, so what? If you can’t pass SSS then you shouldn’t be in the duty with random people who are good enough.

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And if you CAN pass SSS - it's still not even a slight indicator that you should be in a duty. All it means is that your gear is good enough, and you know what order to use your skills in on a chunk of wood that holds perfectly still and never attacks you.

Admittedly, SSS might be a good indicator of whether you're going to be able to get past Faust, or Hummelfaust, or whatever new Faust we'll see in Alexander the Creator - but for all other parts of the raid? The majority of players who passed SSS with flying colors will STILL hold you back, because DPS while eating dirt tends to drop rapidly.

I maintain that the majority of players who attempt Savage Raids CAN pass SSS, even if they haven't tried. And yet, the raids still fail...

Having a requirement like this would simply waste folks' time. SSS is a waste of time, in general, to be honest. It is not remotely an accurate gauge of whether you're ready to attempt an instance.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Because there's no point to it. A player who passes SSS will still wipe a raid if they can't do mechanics. For the vast, VAST majority of players, enrage is NOT the thing that wipes the group - it's failing the dance.

And if you CAN pass SSS - it's still not even a slight indicator that you should be in a duty. All it means is that your gear is good enough, and you know what order to use your skills in on a chunk of wood that holds perfectly still and never attacks you.

Admittedly, SSS might be a good indicator of whether you're going to be able to get past Faust, or Hummelfaust, or whatever new Faust we'll see in Alexander the Creator - but for all other parts of the raid? The majority of players who passed SSS with flying colors will STILL hold you back, because DPS while eating dirt tends to drop rapidly.

I maintain that the majority of players who attempt Savage Raids CAN pass SSS, even if they haven't tried. And yet, the raids still fail...

Having a requirement like this would simply waste folks' time. SSS is a waste of time, in general, to be honest. It is not remotely an accurate gauge of whether you're ready to attempt an instance.

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While I don't want this to be mandatory, because I don't want to go waste my time doing SSS, it's hardly 'pointless'. Clearing requires competence of both mechanics and rotation, this would check for one of those things.

Of course it isn't going to say, 'hey, you're 100% guaranteed to pass with this guy' - it simply checks that they pass the bare minimum requirements to actually do the content.

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Originally Posted by Enur

I really cannot grasp why people don’t want this.

I get that it shouldn’t be for all duties, but if it was only applied to roulettes (excluding leveling roulette) I think it would be fine.

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Excluding all the roulettes, trials (EX or otherwise), raids and other duties that can be done before reaching level 60. This because you need to be level 60 before SSS is available.

Making SSS manditory would be rather scary as the actual raids are not the same dps as hitting a timed bump on the log trial, due to the mechanics in the actual raid. Rather I would be wary that it might birth those Mr/Ms 'elite-misunderstanding' who think their all fine due to the unmoving SSS and then plummet their score in actual raids due to dodge mechanics and whatnot