WoW Legion uses FFXI style for relics but FFXIV does not?

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Originally Posted by LalafellDown

Why work hard?

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Realistically speaking, you don't have to work hard. And that's fine. My main point is aimed at those people that do first world clears and get the hard to reach stuff while it's still relevant. That in itself is an accomplishment. The ones who get salty after all the nerfs don't have a reason to be salty, in my humble opinion. Why be concerned with what others are doing? If you did content when it was relevant, why be upset about others doing it when it's not?

Not again wih the damn FFXI stuff...

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Originally Posted by Xlantaa

Not again wih the damn FFXI stuff...

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Not again with the people complaining about another opinion...

My opinion is that the relic should be burned in fire.

Do we really need another chore on top of the capped tomestone grind?

Grind this primal weapon, because relic is insanly time consuming, throw the primal weapon away, buy the weekly gated tomestone weapon, oh look the relic is done, throw the primal weapon away... thank you for wasting your time and see you next patch!

It's seriously getting tiring. I admit that I was never fond of the relic, but I am a HW player so the relic was always just grind for my generation, but for the love of Twelve! Could we just make it a glamour weapon right from the start and keep it that way? Just remove it from the progression and let the players who want the story and glamour do it. Make it optional... and yes I know that you do not have to do it. I actually stopped playing my main for several weeks when I saw the i210 grind, but when you want to do savage there really isn't an option to simply ignore the weapon, especially when the devs like to put useless stats on the other ones.

/end of rant

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Originally Posted by FizzleofHyperion

Pretty much what the topic says.

Legions relics are very similiar to FFXI ways of obtaining relics now.

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Not really.

Legion's artifact weapons are:

a) Something you get upon hitting the minimum level for the expansion
b) The only weapon you'll wield for the entire expansion

These are key points because FFXIV relics would have to be treated the same way to justify getting that type of approach. Not to mention that applying bits of artifact power into the weapon to unlock traits and new abilities is very much unlike obtaining a trillion dynamis currency to give to a goblin, since you're seeing progression trickle in instead of doing large amounts of grinding for an upgrade.

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It seems to be a hard long path that actually is rewarding and the relic continues to grow with you. I'm not refering to currency wise but the path and ways of obtaining the relic and the time you must invest into getting one and the reward of obtaining it where it shows how you can distance yourself from the rest because of the time and dedication for your gaming.

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As I said, these weapons are the only things you'll wield for the entirety of Legion, so that alone justifies you getting the weapon right at the beginning of the expansion and acting as a sort of second leveling path in addition to your character level.

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How come in FFXIV we are still stuck with a method that Player B can always catch up with Player A on the relic with less time invested for a new chapter to get released again making the effort pretty useless after a while?

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FFXIV relics serve a completely different purpose than Legion's artifacts.

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SAVE ALL THIS ISNT FFXI COMMENT AND THIS ISNT FFXI 2.0 most people are fedup with thoese replies.

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Don't need to save, since I have plenty to give out. This isn't FFXI 2.0.

PS: After Legion ends, artifacts are going to be worthless too.

Have you seen WoWs previous expansion effort? I wouldn't praise anything that development team does until time passes so you know just how bad they're going to mess it up.

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Originally Posted by Specterfuge

Have you seen WoWs previous expansion effort? I wouldn't praise anything that development team does until time passes so you know just how bad they're going to mess it up.

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Considering how bad they are at balancing specs (or any sort of balance) the very first balance patch of the expansion will be very interesting

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Originally Posted by LalafellDown

Your hard work, hours of staying up late with your mates, all of your efforts go to waste.

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By that logic you might as well unsub and wait until the very final patch of the game to start playing again, because everything before that will eventually become "obsolete".

Personally, I like having new stuff to work towards every so often. I get bored with wearing the same gear all the time. And I don't mind relic steps being made easier - it does not erase my achievement. And I can take advantage of it myself if I want to make more than one.

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Originally Posted by Maleficent

I think in a game it's essentially about having fun.

Gear, like many things, has a limited time before it's replaced by something better. New eventually becomes Old. Relevant becomes less so. The cycles are shorter (than WoW?) because the vertical content patches are more frequent.

I can relate that there may be some fatigue if one is competitive and vests heavily in always being in the lead pack. The status symbols last but 3 - 6 months.

Perhaps a way to look at it is: one can't take anything from an MMO other than the memories and sense of achievements (and screenshots. I take many now).

It might be worth divesting some stock on the symbols. Because an MMO should be more about having fun with others and the experiences we share, shouldn't it? (^_^)

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A while back, Welsper59 actually brought up the point that XIV might benefit quite a bit from slowing down the prolificacy of content patches so that they can a.) spend more time making each one a bit more quality and a bit less fleeting in terms of design, and b.) so that players who play at a faster or more skillful rate will be able to enjoy their rewards for longer before the inevitable "catch-up patch" hits. Who knows if their subs can sustain that kind of "some of you might only subscribe for two months out of six to twelve months" business model, though.


EDIT: I always wonder how many people who feel like they "always have something to do" are people who haven't been playing since OBT/launch? I'm not saying that makes their opinions any less valid, I'd just be curious to see if there's a correlation between time played =/= satisfaction with state of the game.

This isn't ffxi, this isn't WoW. This is ffxiv, and if you don't like it then you can get out.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

A while back, Welsper59 actually brought up the point that XIV might benefit quite a bit from slowing down the prolificacy of content patches so that they can a.) spend more time making each one a bit more quality and a bit less fleeting in terms of design, and b.) so that players who play at a faster or more skillful rate will be able to enjoy their rewards for longer before the inevitable "catch-up patch" hits. Who knows if their subs can sustain that kind of "some of you might only subscribe for two months out of six to twelve months" business model, though.


EDIT: I always wonder how many people who feel like they "always have something to do" are people who haven't been playing since OBT/launch? I'm not saying that makes their opinions any less valid, I'd just be curious to see if there's a correlation between time played =/= satisfaction with state of the game.

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I've been playing since 1.0, and I still find plenty of stuff to do. I have stopped raiding, but that was more from disinterest in Alexander and no longer having the time than anything else.

And i have 329 days, 21 hours, 12 minutes of mostly non afk playtime logged.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

If anyone has any questions, I'll be glad to answer them, as I'm currently neck-deep into Legion and loving every second of it. Personally, I think they ripped the artifact idea straight from XIV relics, like XIV so often borrows ideas from WoW, but unlike XIV I feel like they actually improved upon the existing concept/system, rather than made it worse. Artifacts have plenty of lore and story behind them that I axtually care about, as they are pretty much from events that happened during WoW's timeline, unlike the farce with the Zodiac Braves who never show up outside if the relic quest, lol. Upgrading them occurs in a much more
staggered, satisfying way than shoving the endless grind right at the front like XIV does - WoW even has like 4 unlockable skins with 4 colors each for the glamour nerds out there. XIV you just try on the finished product and dream until you finally grind enough to unlock everything - weapon, color appearances and all. It's a reward system that shoves all the gratification at the end, which is why I think the Legion system is a lot better.

Opinions may vary though; the point of my post was more to provide some information that people may be interested in reading to see the OP's comparison to FFXI.

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To be fair, the sheer length of time has actually become an increasing point of contention amongst the WoW community. That being said, I feel FFXIV's mistake isn't your relic being replaced each expansion, but rather the devs cannot seem to balance between an enormous grind or challenge. The former is boring; the latter too difficult. What should be the focus is a more steadied progression pace with ample story and lore tidbits along the way. Make us power up our legendary weapons through beating Extreme Primals, make unique fates (without asburdly long spawn times) and perhaps unique ways of clearing them. Basically, stuff that feels like a constant progression. Even if you've already beat Thordan or Ifrit, it still feels like you're empowering a legendary weapon given the status a Primal carries. Collecting 80 Umbrites is just a thankless chore. I don't even think about it, I just do it. This is alright for tome capping, though plenty of problems exist there. But for supposedly an "epic" piece of gear, we shouldn't be progressing it through ran-of-the-mill dailies.

Well, the Relic (or Anima for HW) is kind of meant to be your main weapon that you use throughout the expansion...

But not only is the grind obnoxious, the requirement of obtaining some expensive items meant it wasn't available to everyone to even get it.
The only alternative weapon that's easy to get is the tomestone ones, and that takes away a little over 2 weeks of upgrading your armors to get one of them.

While the Relic isn't supposed to be something you get easily to give it some actual meaning, putting it behind large amounts of grind and money just makes it not worthwhile which is why the alternatives seem so much better options.

I don't mind grind, but when you have to grind with a drop chance that varies from terrible to random, it's not fun. And locking it behind crafted items that have no purpose beyond getting your relic just makes it harder to get unless you level up your crafting classes as well by not having the Gil for them.

Edit: Ok, I don't know the developers thoughts on the Relic... But as long as the Alternatives to the Relic are easier and faster to get, people are going to be getting them over the Relic. If you can get potentially get a full set of armor and a weapon with 450 weekly capped Tomestones before you can get your Relic and get it powered up, then the Tomestone gear is obviously a more appealing option making the Relic almost worthless to everyone who isn't Minmaxing.

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

Well, the Relic (or Anima for HW) is kind of meant to be your main weapon that you use throughout the expansion...
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No the relic is not meant to be your main weapon it is meant to be as an alternative to those not good enough to defeat the endgame content according to the recent yoshida interwiew

I don't get how people think it's useless now cause it's been nerfed when they got it BEFORE the nerf happened. It's not like the nerf went and took your weapon away. No you still have it, you still downed content before everyone else, you STILL had it for X amount of months before the catch up. Tell me again what you LOST? Cause if it's time then you will ALWAYS lose time in gaming or anything. so what is wrong with the catch up patch? It didn't take ANYTHING away from you. The only thing it does is let others get it. Thats it. And if you don't want others to get it than thats a personal problem you need to get over.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

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While I myself have taken breaks from FFXIV, it's mostly to play a game like Dark Souls 3 and it's not because I'm tired with this game, I just only have so many hours I can play a day. When it comes to the patch rate, FFXIV has adopted a model in an attempt to keep their faithful and loyal players subscribed where as WoW (Since that's what the topic's actually about) focuses on constantly attracting new players or players who have been gone for an excessive number of years.

In response to the OP, I'd say that WoW isn't doing anyone favors by forcing the relic weapon on players since it essentially means that you'll never get a "new" weapon again. It's also nothing like the weapon you got in FFXI where you put literal years into making.

As terrible as XIV relics are, they're still better than legion's 'relics' imo, because you aren't forced to do it like you are in legion.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

As terrible as XIV relics are, they're still better than legion's 'relics' imo, because you aren't forced to do it like you are in legion.

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This comparison would hold if Legion artifacts required RNG fate grinds and animus books and all that nonsense.

I wouldn't want to see stuff like the 1.0 speed runs for relics return. There was stuff like everyone must use BLM as the only DPS because it can aoe trash mobs the best, warrior can be the only tank because it does the best aoe. Except when you get to the last boss all the blms changed to monk because it was the best single target dps and the boss was weak to fists of fire. Or people would run through tons of mobs to skip them.

I think SE's excuses for Anima are lame, Hildy quests interesting has fights that are slightly challenging(casual), Class quests these are more challenging than Anima and some are interesting(casual), Weeping City of Mach(casual) need I say anything, A8 quicker to get the 1k lore and 7 cogs than getting to the equivalent Anima stage (casual)

Now you say that the casual players cant handle some semi difficult content but you have all this above. Stop treating us as mindless drones and actually give us a relic with some depth and challenge.

I actually prefer to do battle for my relic then to gather ingredients for the NPC crafter, as much as I like the characters.

Relic is the only weapon we can customize to such an extent (Stats), that is a large benefit and a driving force behind the people who smash it out in 3 days after release. It's nice that people who can only play an hour a night can chip away at the weapon, sure they wont get it for 2 months but they are not in it for the bragging rights.

Personally, while I feel the timing could be improved; I use the nerfs as a way to level my second relic, because its a lot of effort to have 2 with the amount of free time I have/donthave

I'm subbed to both games so i'll throw my 2 cents into the Relic in FF XIV since I have one on my Drk and did Zeta so i'll talk about why I don't like the relic the way it is now and why WoWs is very interesting and fresh. As for FF XI I never played it so I can't comment on that I'm only going to comment on the steps of relic > now and how they've made me, a long time player since 2.0 dislike relic and it's formula.

FF XIV: When I first played in 2.0 I LOVED getting my Curtana and Holy Shield on my Paladin as I used to play that in WoW, it was a lot of fun getting to do all the quests, gather all the items, fight the primals etc. It reminded me a little of WoW when you had to do the old world quests on some classes like Hunter for example where you had to find and fight 3 demon lords under certain circumstances. Fast forward into Atma and...well it wasn't epic or fun I spent 2 days up straight and got 9 Atmas and took a 5 hour sleep, woke up, farmed more, got them all done on the 3rd day and I felt underwhelmed as my Curtana Zenith/Holy Shield Zenith lost its glow and that was it?

Next step comes out, Animus step this one I really did not like as it required A LOT of AFKing for FATEs and I REALLY hated that made me start to question should I even bother or buckle down or just raid Coil and get our clear for T9 . Finish Animus but it drained me mentally and I kept thinking to myself "it'll get better and more epic just gotta wait!" because I was still enjoying the game. Novus comes out and...i'm just appalled with the RNG I mean RNG where an item can BREAK why? Just why? I spent countless nights with my Whm friend just spirit bonding it got old after 10 minutes and the daily maps were no better as it was just as tedious.

Nexus comes out and it was not that bad, I say that as it's "not bad" but it allowed me to play the game (do roulettes, trials/mount farming, 24 mans) which is a ridiculous route to go with a weapon truth be told it was deceptive it was rewarding joe shmoe a super powerful item for just playing the game. Uh okay? There's no epicness at this point it's just "play the game you'll get it" kind of mentality which at that point I didn't even bother rushing it. The next part for the Zodiac can just burn in hell, those items costed WAY too much so I could write a whole paragraph bout that but i'm good. Lastly the final part wasn't bad at all but left a bad taste in my mouth it was almost like SE was giving away the last part of your relic as a way of saying "sorry you had to do tedious work! Enjoy!". Yeah the weapon looked cool but I found myself just not happy at all, which is why I had no qualms with throwing it away in HW for the 3.0 relic.

As for the 3.0 quest i'll keep it short: it's tedious, re skinned atma, just a carrot on a stick to keep the average player engaged into thinking that their getting somewhere when you're just playing the game. I was tired of it and i'm glad it got a nerf this patch because if the relics are just time sinks then let them sink like the Titanic there's nothing interesting about the questline and the weapons aren't a compliment to each other like they were in ARR.

Legion: Now let's talk about the beast that is WoW and their Artifact weapons, they just came out and after playing like a madman I can say that it's got a lot more depth then what FF XIV has to offer with their weapons. It's not just a weapon it's the foundation of your character and how your character grows and continues to grow, and none of the quests (besides the 8-12 hr Class Hall quests) are pointless they're all how you as a player are in control of your own champions commanding your own force against the demon forces of the Legion. It's bloody brilliant how they chose to make your character stronger as it's like a Sphere Grid from FF-X but you spend Artifact power in order to reach the nodes with branching pathways. Sure people will argue there's an optimal way to spend them, but since we're so early in the expansion you can go wherever you like and can refund your Artifact power for free which is amazing. These nodes give you things like increases dmg of X ability by 1/2/3% or a node that gives a unique secondary ability to a defensive/offensive ability, and an elite node that is super powerful and changes your character dramatically. FF 14 relic weapons should have been this but sadly they are not, the relics are just stat sticks that may or may not have a glow whereas WoW has multiple skins for your weapon and different models now that's intuitive.

In closing: Sorry for the long wall of text I love both games dearly as WoW was my first ever MMO and FF 14 is the game I play with my good friends on my server and always have a blast with them these are just my honest opinions on how drastically different Relic VS Artifact weapons are WoWs is just more diversified and engaging where FF XIV's is just...there. If FF XIV would take risks and make their relics more engaging and challenging then people would actually care about them but for now they're just time diversions to make you think you're achieving something when in reality it's just busywork that anyone can do with an hour or 2 of their time to accomplish. The thing is SE can't make players grind to get a relic unless they drastically change their formula and they've already stated that 4.0 is going to be much of the same of what we have, that being said relic will not be a man part of your character unlike WoW's which is integrated into their formula now. As it stands you don't have to do relic which is fine, keep it the way it is or change FF XIV and take some risks. As a long time player I'm tired of how safe the formula is getting.

With all respect if WoW was your first MMORPG and you have no FFXI experience I cannot expect you to understand what I mean.

A relic on FFXI was one of the most powerful weapons you can get it was something rewarding challenging and time consuming.

It never was useless instead it continued to grow you. We have so many weapon choices on FFXIV that are equally as powerful in ilvl standards and the relic should have been a grind fest and continued to be a reward not a mistake and a waste of your time and effort.

New MMORPG generation or not you don't have to adapt to exactly everything the market does. You can introduce people to something old school.

I'm not sure if the playerbase is a majority or a minority of FFXIV but if the majority is the newer consumer market of MMORPG players it would have been really refreshing if they had to work hard for something.

Yoshi Ps latest comment about the relic that its a casual route is so disrespectful towards the playersbase who understand how powerful and rewarding a relic should actually be.

If I really wanted an alternative I could use the esoterics tomes palace of the dead or even lore tomes why most people get exactly everything as a handout?

Can't just one lousy thing in this entire game just be something thats worth an acheivement/time/gil/investment that can distance players from eachother and give some sort of competition through dedication and time?

There are so many people that have families and job and still find time for FFXIV I don't really buy the whole I don't have enough time excuse.

What I do beleive is the newer generation is just a bunch of lazy crybaby gamers who want everything as a handout and don't want to grind for anything it seems.

There are so many other MMORPGs out there that provide these handouts and are pretty much on a pay to win level.

Final fantasy XIV does not have to go this path but change can only come from the playerbase.

I still beleive that certain things in FFXIV should be accomplished during the same conditions and circumstances as everyone to acheive.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

That being said, I feel FFXIV's mistake isn't your relic being replaced each expansion, but rather the devs cannot seem to balance between an enormous grind or challenge. The former is boring; the latter too difficult.

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What I don't understand is why they don't just do both.

Oh hey you need 100,000 casual points to get your weapon.

A FATE gives 50
An old HW dungeon gives 100
An "expert" dungeon gives 200
a 24 man raid gives 500
An old HW extreme primal gives 700
A current Extreme Primal gives 1000
An ilvl synced extreme primal gives 5000
A current raid boss gives 10,000

Instead it's "we want to subsidize the Duty Finder so go do a trivial thing you've already done a hundred times"

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

Oh hey you need 100,000 casual points to get your weapon.

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Sounds like the light grinding for the 2.0 relic, in which case people will do exactly what they did then..spam the easiest content to get their results. I did Garuda so many times...then I gave up and just..played. It's hard to find that balance, though your example going back to the lights is a good one. It doesn't make you do X-Content 100 times, instead it lets you spread it out. Though the player-base will still find the quickest route and grind it..going back to the feeling of it being a grind chore. Still gave an up-vote though!

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Originally Posted by FizzleofHyperion

A relic on FFXI was one of the most powerful weapons you can get it was something rewarding challenging and time consuming...

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It sure was, I just lucked out on SMN because I didn't need that horrid thing..instead I needed every elemental staff....okay so my grind was different lol. What was nice though was that you didn't really NEED it to complete content. As a Bard also it was always asked if I had the relic, and I would say no. Was I going to get it? No, I was so far back in line to get help getting it..no need. Yet I sang in sea & sky no problem.

The big difference between if they did the grind with the FFXIV relics vs the FFXI relics is the rewards. The game isn't set up currently to do that and to add it into one item would be seen as unfair for some. I'm not disagreeing that if you put more time and effort into the game you should have something to show for it. Just that we don't, even our AF is just iLV and glamour. We have no additional effects to them, but that might just be the answer. Though implementing that would be a big overhaul, with rebalancing issues on jobs / gear etc...

To get that feel back from XI days, there's going to have to be a bit more depth and it will not be able to be just on the relics. There have been multiple threads on creating a skill tree or ability content like FF9, where you had it on gear and could learn it permanently, then place it on other pieces. You're right though I just don't think it will happen with all the things that need to change. Yet, I've been wrong before! We all have, I would welcome be being wrong in this case. When I heard of relics I was thinking it's going to be awesome, and when I got my first I was happy. Then I realized they weren't so special...they are for casual content to make casuals like myself feel good. It's more of a "just play the game, you'll get there", and the bait would make people play a bit every day to get it. Then others will grind it out until they hate life, but that's more about the player and the "need it now!" complex.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

It's easy to solve light's problems though

1) put a cooldown on how often you can get light from specific content. Can't get Garuda light more than once per day or 3 days or whatever.
2) drastically increase rewards for harder content. This was my biggest problem with light. Going out and doing second coil was worth like 3 Garudas when 2nd coil was like forty times harder...

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Could work, but wasn't the point of it not to force anyone to grind certain content? Now, you're forcing people in a sense to do things they don't want to do. It's a good idea, just know that there is no 100% perfect solution. When you fix something you break something else. So now we would have two options of implementing the lights.

The first one would be like you originally said, let everything give it and people can play as they please. On the good side, I don't have to grind the same content, I can do as I please. On the other hand, the player base will find a way that works for them, forcing you to join in..in the end you're most likely grinding the same content over and over because people want it now. Good intentions, players will take it the other route. Now content is not gated behind time in the game, but time of the player. They will grind, be burned out..and complain of how horrible it was while at the same time wanting new content.

Then this one. Pro to it is that there is no "quickest route!" system, forcing players to cycle through other things rather than spam mode in one content. I'm forced to get better and complete content new to me. That would help the skill level in some way definitely. On the other hand, now you're doing the same thing S.E. is doing rather than running all these dungeons multiple times for their key item, you're asking them to run it X amount of times a day to get these lights. We're now forcing users to do content they don't want to do and doing it multiple times. Also, after a player is done running a dungeon or harder content so many times they will jump to the next one because they need to do it within a days period to get the most out of their lights. So now those who are trying to do Garuda, will have a tougher time due to the majority already being passed that and on Alexanders. There would be a large boost to party finders, doing a specific route of fights to get their lights in daily and then done. While those who don't have the time or can't manage to find a team to do their exact fights, will have a much harder time and the progress will end up being huge in the end.

Also, some will look at it as a way of gating the progress of it. If you can only fit in X amount of lights per day at the very most it should take you X days to do it. It's basically what they're doing with the tomes..and when they switch to new ones. The trade in seems awesome but in the end we know it makes very little difference.

I'm not saying one is better than the other, in fact both of your solutions do have their good side. Though you need to weigh in the bad as well, and decide which is best for the players. Also remember in the end, the players are the one thing we can't patch to make better.

I'd actually be okay with either methods, if the reward was good enough. I am like you 3.0 I am not stressing over because I realize, it doesn't hold the 1.0 feeling. Heck we don't even go into dungeons anymore to get our AF! I feel it's not so much about how we obtain the items, but it's what we obtain. There are no extra boosts to our jobs from the relic gear or any gear that makes you go nuts over.

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Originally Posted by Leigaon

Sounds like the light grinding for the 2.0 relic

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It's easy to solve light's problems though

1) put a cooldown on how often you can get light from specific content. Can't get Garuda light more than once per day or 3 days or whatever.
2) drastically increase rewards for harder content. This was my biggest problem with light. Going out and doing second coil was worth like 3 Garudas when 2nd coil was like forty times harder.

Those two things would force diversity, pace the content decently, and maybe entice people to go out and do stuff that's a little bit harder. Really, though, unless they make new content for the quest, it's always going to be boring. I think forcing ilvl sync is a decent lazy dev solution, because almost nobody has ever run a max level dungeon in minimum ilvl gear. Everyone already overgears them with tomestone stuff when they come out.

I stopped doing the relic in 3.0 when I realized the quest would never be good again. I kept doing it in 2.x for some reason - maybe just fond memories from the 1.x relic? Even the 2.0 initial quest was a billion times better than the garbage we get now, though. It's really a shame.

Most people I know don't like joining an MMO already in progress, as they dont want to play "Catch up" with the rest of the player base. (Which I have to try to convince them it's not an issue, but they refuse to believe it.)

The few friends who don't care about that, have already started the game.

I could see this being a partial reason why.

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Originally Posted by Leigaon

There are no extra boosts to our jobs from the relic gear or any gear that makes you go nuts over.

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Well, really, there shouldn't be - not with how they are now. Raid weapons take more time and effort than relics and there's nothing special about them.

As for the rest of that stuff, the idea was for both "solutions" to be active at the same time - lockout on each piece of content + drastically higher rewards for harder stuff. Basically, you can work on it a little bit every day, do a bunch of different stuff, or do a few really hard things. No matter what you do some dickhead on the forums is going to complain, but that guy just wants his weapon because it'll look cute on his Mi'qote waifu anyway.

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Originally Posted by FizzleofHyperion

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Sure what the development team said was offensive, but if you think FFXI's relic system would work in this game, then you may be as naive as they are.

FFXIV's structure is simply not built for FFXI's relic system, it is simple as that. How do you accommodate people jumping into the game? It is hard enough catching up on the current structure. How the relic chain is done is fine, it is how they scale the difficulty is what the issue is.

It is fine if the relic is catered to casual players. What is a problem is that the team doesn't believe that casual players cannot take a little challenge. It only tests your patience in waiting than skill in the game.

The team instead of motivating players to challenge themselves, are breeding and catering to players who do not feel compelled to get better at the game.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

Well, really, there shouldn't be - not with how they are now. Raid weapons take more time and effort than relics and there's nothing special about them...

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That's another thing, even the raid weapons have nothing special about them, which does make me wonder if it was that much of a challenge would the reward really be worth it? You should be rewarded because you took on harder content over myself, but what would there be? Adding a bit higher ilv and stats would only go so far. You could make it look good, but next patch a new item comes out and you glamour over it. That's true, someone will always complain. What the team has to do is will it upset the vocal minority that will express on the forums but still pay? Or the silent majority that will just quit? I can't say, that's why I don't have any successful games under my belt.

I also have nothing to loose if I stick to a suggestion that could really turn for the worse. That's half of why I go "that's good!" "eh but consider this..." I know for myself, if I just think something is good then I am missing something since it's off balancing something else bad. Its a balance to give challenge vs reward, though I'll admit, I'd much rather do the lights and go "Okay, I can't just do Garuda 500 times..I'll do Alexander floors today.." so I would be fine with a light system that reduced the rewards after X amount of time, then again I'm a filthy casual. lol.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

It is fine if the relic is catered to casual players. What is a problem is that the team doesn't believe that casual players cannot take a little challenge. It only tests your patience in waiting than skill in the game. The team instead of motivating players to challenge themselves, are breeding and catering to players who do not feel compelled to get better at the game.

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I feel that's not just from the relic quest but the game in general. You can go so far up in levels without having to do proper or even decent rotations, little mechanics other than dodging. You're right that the FFXI system can't fit into the FFXIV world, the length of it would be insane and no where near the satisfaction or reward without having to add something to the game like new content.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

What I don't understand is why they don't just do both.

Oh hey you need 100,000 casual points to get your weapon.

A FATE gives 50
An old HW dungeon gives 100
An "expert" dungeon gives 200
a 24 man raid gives 500
An old HW extreme primal gives 700
A current Extreme Primal gives 1000
An ilvl synced extreme primal gives 5000
A current raid boss gives 10,000

Instead it's "we want to subsidize the Duty Finder so go do a trivial thing you've already done a hundred times"

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The problem is that regardless of how they reward, that still doesn't fix the issue of an in-between extreme difficulty or extreme grind. That suggestion is grindy for a casual,midcore, and hardcore. That's 2000 fates, 1,000 HW dungeons, 200 raids, 500 expert dungeons, 142 HW extreme primals, 100 current extreme primals, the only part that isn't as grindy is ilvl synced extreme primal for 20 completions and 10 raid bosses.

My issue with the relics period is lack of narrative and the repeated participation in a style of event over and over. It doesn't matter how hard or easy it is. If you don't like doing something now, the reward won't make you like doing it more.

Solutions for Relics:

• Fate Chains with tiers sort of similar to zenis, gives fate lovers incentives to progress tiers. The tiers have increased narrative and some added difficulty as you progress in tiers.
• Normal and extreme Dungeons, during the relic quest lines there will be added stories and extended goals in existing dungeons. Example, in one tier a Warrior Of Darkness could attack mid dungeon, your weapon could be stolen, shatter, etc must be reclaimed or fixed.
• Raids relics would power up for completing goals and bosses inside raids.

Like I said, you add tiers, and not just to fates but to various progressive events. You wanna stay at tier 1 because it is easily accessible and not frustrating, it will take longer but you have it. Want to progress faster in spurts? Then move up the tiers, the higher tier you go, the inclusion of daily/weekly cooldowns keep you from spamming to prevent early completion and content exertion.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

What I don't understand is why they don't just do both.

Oh hey you need 100,000 casual points to get your weapon.

A FATE gives 50
An old HW dungeon gives 100
An "expert" dungeon gives 200
a 24 man raid gives 500
An old HW extreme primal gives 700
A current Extreme Primal gives 1000
An ilvl synced extreme primal gives 5000
A current raid boss gives 10,000

Instead it's "we want to subsidize the Duty Finder so go do a trivial thing you've already done a hundred times"

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I'd probably enjoy this game a lot more if Tomestone caps were handled the same way. Give me a super-hard difficulty tier for my expert dungeon that I only have to run 3 times a week to cap, instead of 6 days in a row of a 20-minute mass-pull snoozefest. Leave the easy option there for people who pug, or can't do difficult content, or don't WANT to do difficult content, but at least give SOME modicum of skill acknowledgement amidst our time-gated gear progression treadmill. The ez-mode player and I will still cap for the week, but I'll do it a last faster and my daily dungeon runs will feel like a hell of a lot less of a chore.

This is kind of off-topic though; sorry for the derail.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

I'd probably enjoy this game a lot more if Tomestone caps were handled the same way...

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They already are, just to a lesser extent. So what the new light/tome content could comes up as is you don't do super hard 3 times and cap, instead you have a bonus for the week that you can do X amount of times then it diminishes to very little forcing you to another raid or fight. So would it be okay to increase leveling and trial roulettes for tomes, you can perform only X times a week then after that everything in that category gives you little to none? This would include expert roulettes also, alexander raids, coils, crystal towers.

More I think about it, more I would like it. It may eventually force me to get out of my comfort zone but it would make me a better player.

I think it shows though that we do need an increase of tomes across the board from those who don't want to do the expert roulettes every single day, but do other things whether it's higher raid content or lower.

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Originally Posted by FizzleofHyperion

Snip

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I know a lot of people played FF XI and I know when people talk about Dynamis and what not I have no clue what they're talking about however, my IRL friends played FF XI and when we had get togethers 3 of us would be playing WoW and the other 2 played FF XI. They only briefly talked about the relic but the way they talked about it wasn't epic or intuitive it was 200 mobs you had to kill and then another 200 and another etc which is just another time sink from my perspective. I read back to the relic quests today about FF XI and they're more of the same like the 5 stages they talk about to upgrade your weapon you have to wait 2 hours? Why? It's more gated time sinking to cater to a weapon that'll take 1 day and then another 2 hours to wait again. That's about all i'm going to comment since I have no experience but that's what my friends were doing back then and it wasn't hard just tedious for them to be like well I have to wait a few hours now i'll take a nap.

I did like the idea that it grew with you as being your mainstay weapon i'll give it that but FF XIV has nothing like this and If it was more like Legions since I can grab points from it as it's really well done and feels rewarding to the point where adding a new artifact relic item that's higher ilvl with the desired + trait feels amazing. But after player FF XIV and having friends that played FF XI with them spending countless weekends grinding I can see the old school grind but reading up on it and watching them play and talking to them now (2016) it was more tedious and less challenging to them and comparing it to FF XIV that's what FF XIV is in terms of relic grinding, just tedious and a time sink rather then growing with your character. Those are the only differences from a not FF XI player.

Its just as I mentioned before there are so many options to come close to the current level of a relic or atleast 5 ilvls below and its been like this for a while. I just dont understand how 1 thing I repeat this one thing could have been more sacred.
People who have commented here seem to intentionally not read what I actually mean.

There are currently 3 ways to get decent ilvl weapons that are close to the relic.
Isnt 3 ways enough? Can't the 4th option be different?

I don't think the game would break it because of it I think it would improve!

quite the opposite you will get people that will dedicate time to it because it feels like it would be worth the time and effort

For someone who has never played WoW and the only thing I know about Legion is that there is a magic weapon, can someone explain what's better about their method versus ours?

Honestly artifacts and relics accomplish different objectives to the point I question why this is a discussion

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Originally Posted by Remedi

Honestly artifacts and relics accomplish different objectives to the point I question why this is a discussion

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Becuase they are all ultimately, iconic weapons of the Class they represent. Think about it. All the Jobmasters have these weapons. The charatcer art for the classes have these weapons (Eso weapons count), Derplander has a Bravura and a Brinoac and the Warriors of Darkness have relics.

Likewise with all I knoe about the artifacts (from this thread) I assume that this is also the case for them. Legendary iconic weapons that the playwer would canonically be depicted with

To tell you the truth I wish there was relic armors as well that upgraded. I associate gear as more repeated iconic sets to Final Fantasy. Artifact Armor is the core visual identity each job is based off.

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Originally Posted by Awful

I know a lot of people played FF XI and I know when people talk about Dynamis and what not I have no clue what they're talking about however, my IRL friends played FF XI and when we had get togethers 3 of us would be playing WoW and the other 2 played FF XI. They only briefly talked about the relic but the way they talked about it wasn't epic or intuitive it was 200 mobs you had to kill and then another 200 and another etc which is just another time sink from my perspective. I read back to the relic quests today about FF XI and they're more of the same like the 5 stages they talk about to upgrade your weapon you have to wait 2 hours? Why? It's more gated time sinking to cater to a weapon that'll take 1 day and then another 2 hours to wait again. That's about all i'm going to comment since I have no experience but that's what my friends were doing back then and it wasn't hard just tedious for them to be like well I have to wait a few hours now i'll take a nap.

I did like the idea that it grew with you as being your mainstay weapon i'll give it that but FF XIV has nothing like this and If it was more like Legions since I can grab points from it as it's really well done and feels rewarding to the point where adding a new artifact relic item that's higher ilvl with the desired + trait feels amazing. But after player FF XIV and having friends that played FF XI with them spending countless weekends grinding I can see the old school grind but reading up on it and watching them play and talking to them now (2016) it was more tedious and less challenging to them and comparing it to FF XIV that's what FF XIV is in terms of relic grinding, just tedious and a time sink rather then growing with your character. Those are the only differences from a not FF XI player.

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The original vanilla relic acquisition in XI was not as grindy, since it only involved currency that you could slowly farm in a raid for and buy from other players, wait times to turn in a finished stage and wait X days/weeks until it was ready (recent nerfs dropped its wait times to hours), and killing specific bosses for relic stage requirements. My use of "only" is a huge understatement though... as in the effort it took is something this game hasn't even begun to make players experience, outside of any world first folks' efforts. Still, Dynamis was a generally fun experience even after a hundred times (though that's subject from person to person as to when tedium hits lol). It was only after the level cap increase that those stupid use Relic WS 200 times on X mob type became a thing, and the mindnumbing grind really began.

Legions Legendary weapons progression is interesting to say the least. The endgame frontier player will potentially avoid the significant amount of time a casual easy-mode player has to spend upgrading. How their ease of requirements will affect perspectives as the expansion goes on is yet to be determined though.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

Becuase they are all ultimately, iconic weapons of the Class they represent. Think about it. All the Jobmasters have these weapons. The charatcer art for the classes have these weapons (Eso weapons count), Derplander has a Bravura and a Brinoac and the Warriors of Darkness have relics.

Likewise with all I knoe about the artifacts (from this thread) I assume that this is also the case for them. Legendary iconic weapons that the playwer would canonically be depicted with

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XI is a bit of the anomaly between the three titles mentioned. There was never an actual depiction of the relic weapons as being the icon for the jobs. All that was ever associated was the weapon type, the artifact armors, and MAYBE the old crappy AF weapon (only a few jobs on that one, I think).

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

To tell you the truth I wish there was relic armors as well that upgraded. I associate gear as more repeated iconic sets to Final Fantasy. Artifact Armor is the core visual identity each job is based off.

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The easy out on that one is the glamour system. Not the same, I know, but it at least gives you the visual option.