Apparently, new player means no one can look anything up anymore

I don't mind new players with no clue about a dungeon but I really do mind new players who are asking for boss mechanics/tactics - either you go in blind or you inform yourself beforehand. No one can expect that other players are their tour guide.

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Originally Posted by Tremara

I don't mind new players with no clue about a dungeon but I really do mind new players who are asking for boss mechanics/tactics - either you go in blind or you inform yourself beforehand. No one can expect that other players are their tour guide.

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But the problem is when players who are new to the fight, do not ask for tactics and die, majority of the players will shame them for it. One of the things that I have learned from this community is, if you dont know a fight, ask for the tactics, atleast this way you will not hinder your party members.

So its true that veteren players not their tour guides, but this also means those players cshould not come to the forum and complain about newcomers, if they do not want to teach them how to beat a boss.

Notthing personal Tremara, its just you are probably the first person that I have met who tells newcomers to not ask for tactics when they dont know anything about a boss fight.

I always go into boss fights knowing as little as possible for the first time, except for Extreme Primals... Prior knowledge will stop a death or two on the Extremes.

No one should need to look up anything. Demanding that new players ruin their experience of the game by reading spoilers for every multi-player element is just plain rude IMHO.

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Originally Posted by Laerune

Notthing personal Tremara, its just you are probably the first person that I have met who tells newcomers to not ask for tactics when they dont know anything about a boss fight.

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I agree. To be honest, I'd love newcomers to announce they're new to the run or ask if there's a specific mechanic they should know about. If no one says they're new even though the "one of more party members..." is announced, it's often assumed everyone knows the mechanic. And if that newcomer die, chances are, they'd be more ashamed to admit being new.

Its a leveling dungeon. I think your expectations of new players is far too high. You can't go into lower level content expecting perfection.

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Originally Posted by Tremara

I don't mind new players with no clue about a dungeon but I really do mind new players who are asking for boss mechanics/tactics - either you go in blind or you inform yourself beforehand. No one can expect that other players are their tour guide.

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Since spending 2 minutes explaining a boss is harder than than repeatedly wiping on mechanics that a player isn't able to grasp on the first go.

Sounds like a huge waste of time, this explaining and educating thing, huh? Hitting floor over and over, overstretching my teammates, and being unable to actually play while fainted? Time well spent.

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Originally Posted by SinisterJointss

This mentality is so horrible and toxic. No wonder new players have such a hard time.

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Hyperbole. The only new players who have a tough time are those who don't seem to read, or do everything the game casually tells them. OP stated this LNC was wearing shoddy gear and a very bad weapon. If this player was doing their MSQ, they'd have decent gear and a decent weapon. Now, messing up in Chimera can be forgiven, since its main deadly attacks aren't telegraphed (though if this was explained and they died without trying to avoid it anyway, then they weren't listening to helpful advice and only use 'first time' as an excuse; hoping that will save them from criticism, or from being kicked). Also, since they were a level 40 LNC, this can mean they never did their Class quests (which I believe the game reminds you to do every five levels), or they couldn't be bothered levelling a secondary Class to level 15.

Just because someone is new, doesn't mean they should be given special "it's okay to carry them" treatment. I was new at one point, but I at least tried to be a team player.

When I leveling arcanist all of my time is using summon 2 because it's "summon 2" it must be powerful than summon 1, yet nobody complain for it. So I keep using it till I got my summon 3 as smn.

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Originally Posted by Tremara

I don't mind new players with no clue about a dungeon but I really do mind new players who are asking for boss mechanics/tactics - either you go in blind or you inform yourself beforehand. No one can expect that other players are their tour guide.

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Wait, what? You don't mind a new player with no clue about the dungeon or boss mechanics, but trying to ascertain the knowledge from the actual group you're playing with, and not some visual guide posted three years ago is unacceptable? WTF?

Why on Earth does it have to be about being a tour guide? What happened to just being helpful and courteous to your fellow players?

Well in some newpies defense, some of you fine fellows don't even bother tapping a key
when a person says "Any tips here?". I mean come on dudes, 4 man dungeons are kinda faceroll easy anyways.
You take less than a min to explain and then you're ready to go! Hell, the 60 man dungeons are rehash and easier than lower dungeons.
You can explain and be done with it instead of wiping 56.309219321031 times then RQ.
That's ya'll who wants to sit there for days on end in a dungeon then cry a mighty tear about how bad people were.

As for harder content, you get more knowledge by doing the run than listening to Mr. Happy explaining things for
decades. [No offense, I use his guides too but damn some times lol.] The best thing to do is trial and error it.
I would usually end up suggesting people who are really
struggling to read up or watch something. Not being mean since I do it also!

When I encounter a player described by the OP, I see someone who needs help. Not a jerk wanting to be carried through. You can just tell when a player is trying but struggling, and one that just doesn't care. It's in their words, and it's in their actions on the screen. And from my experience, the ratio of jerk, to player that needs help is well in favor of the latter.

When it is THAT bad: under-leveled gear, no stone, multiple KO's, etc. More often than not, the player has been brought up very poorly. Whether it was another mmo, or this one, or perhaps it's his first one, however this person picked up things was just not right. Ask this player if they have any friends, participate in an active FC, or any kind of socialization where just being a part of it has you learn much. The answer will likely be no. They have no gil for better equipment because they don't really know how to make it. No one to craft stuff for them. No one to validate them in any way. It's really sad. The way you tell these players apart from the ones who are just lazy a-holes is they are receptive to those trying to help, and don't take advantage of them. In DF, you can hardly take someone under your wing, but you can at least set an example, and let them know there are people willing to help.

BTW, I personally named Cutter's Cry "Far Cry", because it is a far cry from your normal dungeon. Along with Qarn and Aurum Vale, these instances are less forgiving for blown/ignored mechanics. A skilled and experienced group of players can make these dungeons look like a cake walk, but I've experienced more PUG wipes between these three dungeons than all the other ones I've ran and primals combined. My FC knows that when I refer to a instance as "fun", it's typically one where derps are plentiful. CC is a LOT of fun!

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Originally Posted by Gemina

They have no gil for better equipment because they don't really know how to make it. No one to craft stuff for them.

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Pretty sure the MSQ gives you level appropriate gear (and if you're lucky, dungeon dropping gear you need).

No one's obligated do do outside research for game they play to enjoy.

People are going to invest as much time in to researching mechanics as they want to, and not everyone wants to nor should the game force people to do so, and it doesn't.

Quit being a hardass over how players have their fun.

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Originally Posted by Windi

No one's obligated do do outside research for game they play to enjoy.

People are going to invest as much time in to researching mechanics as they want to, and not everyone wants to nor should the game force people to do so, and it doesn't.

Quit being a hardass over how players have their fun.

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I'm... not seeing how standing in AoE's to get yourself killed 8 times is fun, but hey. We play a game where BLM's will refuse fire spells because They wanna be Elsa. What do I know?

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Originally Posted by Sciwolf

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Now I know that there some new players who actually do look up basic dungeon tactics before queueing and I know that people make mistakes (I make plenty of mistakes myself). But when someone obviously does not give enough crap to look up their class or a basic dungeon run. Why would me or anyone else want them to get carried to 60 and continue doing the same thing?

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Next time just leave and take 30mim at the very beginning. SE will fill your slot by a mentor... ^^;

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Originally Posted by Nicobo

Next time just leave and take 30mim at the very beginning. SE will fill your slot by a mentor... ^^;

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Which honestly is a flawed system. I actually got a mentor tank while leveling an alt healer in Toto-rak. He literally had no idea what he was doing and if I casted even one healing spell, I'd pull everything off of him (assuming dps didn't do anything either.)

If that's what would end up as the replacement, then it's still doomed.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

I'm... not seeing how standing in AoE's to get yourself killed 8 times is fun, but hey. We play a game where BLM's will refuse fire spells because They wanna be Elsa. What do I know?

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I think you are misinterpreting my point. Losing at something definitely stinks, but why not take the time to give a struggling individual advice? My problem with the OP is that they're getting worked up by their own unrealistic standards and making a whine-thread demanding that players play in the same fashion as they do.

I have doubts the LNC was struggling ("didn't bother dodging" was stated). OP did say they had low level gear and an even worse weapon. This just tells me this player was not even trying to play the game. MSQ gives you items and gil. If you need to upgrade your gear, buy something from the gear vendors (or if cheaper, MB). The fact they were also still a LNC further shows they're not trying to pay attention (after levelling two alts because I'm a masochist, I noticed the game now tells you to go see your Class Quest giver at every five levels).

OP definitely could have worded their post better, but this LNC is far from being spared from criticism.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

Pretty sure the MSQ gives you level appropriate gear (and if you're lucky, dungeon dropping gear you need).

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I'm pretty sure Cutter's cry is not unlocked via MSQ because at my first time, my gear was around the same as the OP's describe, and I went there straight after brayflox which at that time tend to be abandoned by healers/tank quiters.. Hence why i was having gears at early 30s and i missed Qarn as a dungeon because when i queued for qarn, the tank/healer would also leave immediately.

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Originally Posted by Erudito

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Ya there are a rare minority of players that have a strange habbit of ignoring everything else about a game and only care about "How to kill something" in the game.

I am bit worried about these people because the only thing on their mind when it comes to playing FF14 is to only play the game to kill things and they may complain sometimes that there is "not enough things to kill" in the game.

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Originally Posted by lvlagmarink

I'm pretty sure Cutter's cry is not unlocked via MSQ because at my first time, my gear was around the same as the OP's describe, and I went there straight after brayflox which at that time tend to be abandoned by healers/tank quiters.. Hence why i was having gears at early 30s and i missed Qarn as a dungeon because when i queued for qarn, the tank/healer would also leave immediately.

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This is true, but the LNC was also level 40. They have either not done their MSQ (which implies they spammed FATEs), or have been choosing Allagain Coins over gear upgrades (which means they have more than enough gil to buy better gear and weapons). Doing the MSQ also opens up more side quests in the zone, which also offer upgrade rewards.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

Pretty sure the MSQ gives you level appropriate gear (and if you're lucky, dungeon dropping gear you need).

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This depends on how you play. I always do all the side quests in an area the first time I'm there, I never skip anything. When I leveled up, my character's actual level was way ahead of the MSQ level, so my quest reward gear was always outdated by the time I got it.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

This is true, but the LNC was also level 40. They have either not done their MSQ (which implies they spammed FATEs), or have been choosing Allagain Coins over gear upgrades (which means they have more than enough gil to buy better gear and weapons). Doing the MSQ also opens up more side quests in the zone, which also offer upgrade rewards.

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We, as DPS spam FATE because the actual queue for our dungeons take too long!! That's why we queue while doing FATE to gain more exp..

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

Anyone who is still a starter class past level 40 is just woefully ignorant and refuses to listen to others, I believe. No real hope for them.

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I'm really agree with you, when I was brand new and I reached level 30 with my lancer immediately other players in dungeons told me about the dragoon job.
I think that most of the players in Eorzea really help to all the new comers.

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Originally Posted by MayleeMorningstar

This depends on how you play. I always do all the side quests in an area the first time I'm there, I never skip anything. When I leveled up, my character's actual level was way ahead of the MSQ level, so my quest reward gear was always outdated by the time I got it.

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But do you move onto the next area before completing the MSQ?

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Originally Posted by lvlagmarink

We, as DPS spam FATE because the actual queue for our dungeons take too long!! That's why we queue while doing FATE to gain more exp..

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So you're suggesting this LNC spammed FATE's until he was level 40, skipping his Class and Main Scenario/Side Quests?

Other people: "Where is the social interactions in the game? It's just not social enough!"
New Player: "Where is X? How do I do X?"
Other People: "Just google it already, stop making me communicate to you, and have someone else do it for me, since they made websites about it outside of the game!"

I remember the good ol' days of FFXI, when so many ppl on PS2, couldnt easily look up info, and we actually talked about it, and it started conversations about the subject, and then other topics branched off from it.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

So you're suggesting this LNC spammed FATE's until he was level 40, skipping his Class and Main Scenario/Side Quests?

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I only shared my experience toward why new player may have lower tier gear during around lv 30-40 because the dungeons for that levels are optional and the fact that there are some cases where tanks and healers abruptly left not wanting to do anything with those dungeons.. Also coerthas fates might be popular leveling spot.. You need to admit, that despite FATE being unpopular toward hardcore players, it is still a content in this game.

It may be ignorant for that player to skip unlocking DRG, but the way i see it, having low tier gear around that level range is completely normal.

Being a returning player who hasn't played in a while (definitely new to all Heavensward content), I understand the reality that rejoining a matured game (endgame content out for a while) essentially means that the community is mostly endgame statics. Hence the reason I have no interest in joining a FC (likely full of people running in their endgame statics). Although forums is a small sample of the overall player base, I get that kind of closed-door vibe (no office hours, just Google it yourself).

I hear that there isn't necessarily a compelling need to do the end-endgame raiding though, and SE is starting to pay a modicum of attention to PvP (baby steps!), so maybe I would be better off as a new player carving out a niche in that direction than dealing with the PvE endgame catchup/static politiking.

Maybe I just lack faith in people sometimes... I feel this game has to legitimately spoonfeed a certain chunk of it's playerbase to even absorb the simplest of instructions and tasks. Maybe then, DF wouldn't be so terrible.

There is no "playstyle" argument. There is a right way and a wrong way to do things.

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

Other people: "Where is the social interactions in the game? It's just not social enough!"
New Player: "Where is X? How do I do X?"
Other People: "Just google it already, stop making me communicate to you, and have someone else do it for me, since they made websites about it outside of the game!"

I remember the good ol' days of FFXI, when so many ppl on PS2, couldnt easily look up info, and we actually talked about it, and it started conversations about the subject, and then other topics branched off from it.

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Same thing when older players remind everyone that MMOs are multiplayer when someone wishes they could solo something, but then expect new players to learn about the game by themselves before coming to the party... It's a similar mindset to people who ragequit new/difficult content after 1-2 wipes because they're hoping to get a different group with players who've already cleared the content, which only slows down how quickly the community in general becomes experienced with the content. Learning, and helping your fellow player learn, are part of the MMO genre in general.

In FFXI, when people complained about sitting around LFG all day, the reply was often "Then start your own party, don't just wait to get invited!". Well, if you're sick of having to interact with new players who perhaps have more faith in the developers of the game they're playing, then start your own PF party!

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Originally Posted by Bixillarla

When the game was new there was no videos to look up, those first people through and to figure it out themselves. I do not look at videos on new dungeons, I prefer to experience it first hand not through a video. It spoils it for me watching a video before I do it.

As for the class why don't you offer some advice to the new player and help them out a bit so they can get better instead of complaining.

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Fully agree with this and I'm the same as you fully. I prefer experiencing the fight my self first hand not watching videos. To me it feels like cheating.

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

Other people: "Where is the social interactions in the game? It's just not social enough!"
New Player: "Where is X? How do I do X?"
Other People: "Just google it already, stop making me communicate to you, and have someone else do it for me, since they made websites about it outside of the game!"

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From how OP worded it, it doesn't sound like the LNC asked for help or anything (so that pretty much makes your script collapse on itself). They just said "first time" at some point during/after the Chimera fight, which is usually the worst time to teach anyone how to anything. I also get the feeling the LNC probably wouldn't listen to given advice anyway, since they didn't seem to try to avoid 'basic AoEs.'

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Originally Posted by Sciwolf

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This is a game, not a research paper. Some people play blindly because they like to experience trial and error. But you know, a lot of new player syndrome exists because of attitudes like yours, where instead of people actually helping other people by providing advice, they'd rather be go to a forum and scoff them.

OP is form The World of Gilgamesh, what more do we need to know or talk about. -_-'

Heres the difference between old school gamers and new school gamers.

OOOOOh New Dungeon

• Old School Gamer - Goes in blind then wonders what that lose rock would do if stepped on then jumps on the rock.
• New School Gamer - Launches Youtube... watches the "New Dungeon" guides... then avoids the lose rocks and would never experience the bear trap clamping down the foot followed by a volley of arrows and in case that is not enough to wipe the party an unavoidable OMEGA FLARE hits the party for 99,999,999 damage.

Oooooh New Raid

• Old School Gamer - On Day 1 goes in blind with a group of friends or crazy strangers then spends 5+ hours straight to learn the fight. You know nothing but wipes after wipes after wipes then all of a sudden something snaps and finally defeat the raid while under geared and with blood, sweat and tears :) Then says to everyone in the group "damn that was fun!!!!! Want to try T2?"
• New School Gamer - Waits 5+ days just to spend 2 boring hours watching Youtube videos for multiple ways of beating the fight. Then goes in with a few wipes... beats the raid and says to everyone in the groups "thats it? This raid is so boring bla bla bla bla........"

I can keep going but you get the point... If i knew everything before hand then what is the point in running the content? If i had this new school mentality I might as well just kick back and only watch others play the game. Anyways, don't knock people who enjoy experiencing something new w/out having to watch videos or whatever.:) Different strokes for different folks.......

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Originally Posted by Astral145

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The Raid bit isn't correct. Videos don't release for quite some time until most of the world first statics have finished it which generally can be a 2 weeks or more depending on the tier.

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Originally Posted by Remus

The Raid bit isn't correct. Videos don't release for quite some time until most of the world first statics have finished it which generally can be a 2 weeks or more depending on the tier.

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Oh... I didn't know I dont watch videos to learn content....:p

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Originally Posted by Astral145

Oh... I didn't know I dont watch videos to learn content....:p

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Neither do I. With that said I know how raid videos are handled. It comes with being in the raid community. It's better to not speak about something you don't fully grasp because when someone points it out looks kinda silly.

Many of us old school players do look up guides and get as much information as possible, why well for example I main tank, if I do not know my shit, shit probably will not get done.
We have a sense of responsibility to not fuck others over.

Have I had to do blind runs for progression in my younger years ? yes it was hell, did we also use guides/information as soon as it was available or release our own also Yes.
Information is power.

To sum this up many people go blind and outright refuse to use guides, even after the first run, this is fine as long as they learn fast, if they do not be prepared for the possible scrutiny that comes with this choice.
Information is power.

As for the actual problem the new player was not in the wrong for not looking up the dungeon but they where for not being ready to do said dungeon, yes this includes going in as a class, not being geared in presumably all three areas armour, accessories and most important the weapon. This all just points towards the type of player who does not care how they effect others experience.

As a mentor I would point this out and try to help. But to be honest the best solution would be to have them leave and sort their shit out, after they had received the knowledge they required. Dying 8 times in any of the dungeons, not raids (24man) is abnormal. Yes they would lose time but coming back with appropriate gear and a job would give him an easier more enjoyable run as well as for the other three people in the party.

Why is my mindset the way it is go play with J players and see how they do things. This is something I did in 1.0 dam it was fun.