So Long, Thanks for all the Fish

I think they were thrown there for extra EXP.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

It greatly saddens me that the whole point for the so-called 'fetch quests' in the game is completely lost on most players in this thread - it's part of your job description as an adventurer! Back when you first started the game and signed up at the Adventurer's Guild, the guild proprietor actually tells you right then and there what you are in for - helping people with mundane tasks! And that "rarely will the work be of realm-shaking importance"

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That's great and all but how often do you see your mailman taking down terrorist organizations in his spare time.

Also that "helping people out thing" most likely refers to the game as an mmo and is just another way SE is telling us to work together on trivial tasks as well as the big stuff. Sorta like in Answers when the line states "look to those who walked before to lead those who walk after", it's about being an mmo not a fedex carrier for every Roe, Lala and Hyur walking down Ruby Road Exchange.

You can white knight the dev teams decisions all you want but in the end it is a major turn off for a lot of people and has caused a lot of people I know personally to walk away. Other games, mmos included, do it way better because they are more creative about it. Even fetch quests don't always have to feel like a fetch quest, mundane or no. So they could technically keep them in, but by the twelve they do not need to make them so monotonous, broing and unimaginative. A few here and there like that fine, but there are just soooooo many and they are mind numbingly tedious.

The story is so bad in this game that I cheered every time an npc that has given me quests dies or becomes injured.

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FedEx quests. Hundreds of them.

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God help you if you ever play WoW. You think they're bad in this game, try about 12 years worth of them. FF XIV is practically a mini-game by comparison.

Why? Because you're the Warrior of Light!
When you ain't saving the world, you're pest control and god knows what else.
But mostly an errand boy/girl :3

It's also a matter of storytelling. What you think people should think about your game, your novel, your movie, whatever, is not necessarily what they are going to think. If they think differently than you intended, it's not your audience's fault for not appreciating it... it's yours for not presenting it to them correctly.

Titan questline does serve a narrative/gameplay purpose but not one that players have been prepped to notice or care about. It may be intended to immerse them in grand companies or level them up, but story-wise what it actually does is dangle what people are really excited about (the big boss battle they've been hearing about) just out of reach. Although not as bad as the ARR-HW dip. The Titan one is short enough that I don't think many reach the threshold where anticipation turns into frustration and then disinterest.

Regardless of how anyone would like players to feel about sniffing chocobos for 7+ hours and getting barely noticeable EXP and outdated gear, people are instead going to be excited to see the latest content with all the rest of the players. This should be predictable...

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Originally Posted by FunkYeahDragons

Regardless of how anyone would like players to feel about sniffing chocobos for 7+ hours and getting barely noticeable EXP and outdated gear, people are instead going to be excited to see the latest content with all the rest of the players. This should be predictable...

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Why though? Why is only the newest content worth seeing and experiencing while you haven't seen or experienced any of the old one? You don't start a single player game from the last battle either just because your friend started before you and is already there.

I do not agree with alot of the OP's points, but I do have to agree that he has a valid point when he talks about the non related fetch quests. There are alot of fetch quests, but I have not noticed them in Heavensward content. While I agree that as a adventurer you need to complete these mundane tasks, the WoL becomes a hero after the Titan fight.

Maybe they should have kept the WoL a normal adventurer and made him a known hero after all the mundane fetch quests?

I enjoyed fishing

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Originally Posted by StormDisciple

Stuff

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Like, I'm gonna start off and say I totally get this and I'm on your side that the fetch quests in the MSQ were pointless and mind numbing. In the 2.0 stuff (between Levels 1-50) it made sense because it was about gaining an "adventurer" reputation and being made to do menial tasks, plus they worked as ways to get bonus EXP.

The fetch quests from 2.1 - 2.5 (ARR Patch Content) were by and large useless. Some of them are fine - and they're just immersion setting. But the vast majority of them were completely unnecessary and I absolutely agree with you.

That being said - this isn't an example of content gating. It was just poor story design because they wanted to pad out the length of the Main Scenario to meet some arbitrary "Hours of Story Content" thing.

They've acknowledged it was poor form and from Heavensward moving forward, content patches have been much more streamlined and focused on the story. That doesn't mean that there isn't SOME there, but it's rarely if ever obnoxious or intrusive. Most filler-y fetch quests were relegated to sidequests in Heavensward, although there are some in the 50-60 part of the MSQ in 3.0, but they mostly exist as EXP filler and aren't nearly as hair-tearing as their 2.X counterparts. The problem is the fact that it'd be very hard for them to go in now and tear out some 50+ quests from the Main Scenario and make it still fully make sense. It's a poor design decision, but ultimately one I think we have to just deal with now. Thankfully with teleporting and chocobo porters, most of that stuff is basically just "Point, Click, Wait".

I think everyone finds the requirement for the Hard Mode primals to be rather boggling for access to Heavensward, I honestly think it was just for the sake of making players get those unlocked in Trial Roulette.

We're heroes, not gofers!

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...08/unknown.png

disclaimer: I agree with several arguments being presented on both sides.

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Originally Posted by ColorOfSakura

also stuff.

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I\\'ve noticed others have said the same thing since I started this thread, that Heavensward is better about the needless and excessive filler.

But even still, it does NOT fix the problem for people jumping in brand new. I am not asking for some ability to skip the main story. I am not complaining about having to do the main story to start the next bit of story. None of that is the problem.

The problem is having my experience bogged down with fetch quests and padding that rightfully belong as side quests, the very same that you say appear in Heavensward. It kills momentum, it kills wonder, it kills excitement. Those fetch quests and padding would be flipping PERFECT for those dead spots during leveling when there are a lack of quests.

Apparently they are all in the MQ.

If its better, really and truly, maybe I can finish it out, I\\'ll give it some time and think about it. Cause as of right now, FFXIV can burn.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Why though? Why is only the newest content worth seeing and experiencing while you haven't seen or experienced any of the old one? You don't start a single player game from the last battle either just because your friend started before you and is already there.

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To be honest that is because a lot of the old content is nerfed to hell or no longer worth doing. New players have to wait till level 60 before seeing any real challenge i.e coil people will go in unsynced (certain fights you will be told to kill yourself while others kill the boss), Old Ex fights Titan etc will only be done unsynced for pony farms (unless waiting long times in DF) and Crystal tower raid series the ilvl is so high you can skip majority of the mechanics.

Unsynced is one of the reason we lose new players and if the trend continues come next expansion it will be level 70 before they see a challenge. Anima is perfect example of how to keep all this stuff relevent, instead of farming tomes we could of had ex fights. I know SE said they didnt want to make it difficult for casuals but the class/job quest fights are not difficult for casuals, those types of fights could or been added or quirky hildy fights etc but no we was left with fetch and grind.

Just make it more interesting than doing the same things over and over again.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

It greatly saddens me that the whole point for the so-called 'fetch quests' in the game is completely lost on most players in this thread - it's part of your job description as an adventurer! Back when you first started the game and signed up at the Adventurer's Guild, the guild proprietor actually tells you right then and there what you are in for - helping people with mundane tasks! And that "rarely will the work be of realm-shaking importance" (paraphrasing how Miounne stated it in Gridania), but that it was still important, as it helps build trust and rapport with the people of Eorzea, a people who have experienced a horrible cataclysm caused by foreign powers.

Even the much-maligned Titan-lead up questline had a method to it's madness - the reason you were being made to do all that running around was again to establish trust with the Company of Heroes, a mercenary force who were the only ones to defeat Titan previously, but they paid a huge price in blood to do so. Thus, this cocky adventurer who claimed to have taken down a Primal already comes up willing to take on Titan, of course they're going to be suspicious and not exactly willing to believe they could do it, and they especially did not want yet another life or mind lost to Titan on their conscience again. Actions speak louder than words after all. So it was a trust building exercise, to show you really did have the stamina and drive to do so, even after doing all that messing around getting food (and even if you failed, at least you would have had a nice 'final meal' beforehand!;)).

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It doesn't matter what excuse the story attempts to offer. If people find the content boring, they aren't going to be invested. I am someone who adores lore and largely found the story quite engaging but I had no motivation whatsoever to care about the company of heroes except when I started to make up stupid voices for their characters in my head. Why? I was bored. Any sense of world building is lost if your audience loses interest.

See, if the questline pertained to preparing you to fight Titan, I wouldn't despise it. But no, I'm off being miss errand girl for some banquet. We aren't proving anything nor are we building rapport. We're just running errands. In fact, it's almost like Chief Moglin except without the self-referential humour. Fetch quests themselves are not inherently bad, they simply need to be fleeting and serve a purpose. Twenty six of them in a row only serves to waste your time.

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It's a FF game after all, and FF games are story-based RPGs, even the MMO titles like FFXI and XIV. How hard is it to understand that?

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This is a cop out. By that logic, I could defend a whole expansion worth of nothing but fetch quests. If you've played the single player games, virtually everything you do either advances the narrative or provides character development for the main cast. They don't have you running around to fetch cheese or wine.

Just wanna leave those here ^^:

http://img5.fotos-hochladen.net/uplo...on28z396yi.png

My "review" so far:
I m not being able to play any other games with a different gamepad control scheme any more. Side effect: grew a weird fetish about girls with scales and glasses... 5/5 Lamias would play again

Just kidding.
In fact, FFXIV (including Heavensward) may be the last game which made me play it for years without any interruptions. Even when its not perfect, there is no other MMORPG on the market, like FFXIV.

I didn't read the rest of the posts. I agree however, that the 50ish era quests, they wear out their welcome, especially as fresh character / returning character. You pretty much hit a long brick wall to HW, for like way too long. Some of the MSQ (specifically later patches) could stand to get some of their fat trimmed, without wrecking the story, in my opinion anyway. I don't feel like some of the primal stuff is that bad though, maybe just feels like it because of the other stuff too. lol

I only noticed this recently when my buddy came back to the game after taking break. I never noticed before really, since I did all the patches as they came for the most part.

Didn't ever noticed the side note of the 2.5 starting quest.

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

These 3 trials are not part of the main scenario or required to continue the main scenario.

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Well, they at least used to be, though.

MSQ quest good intentions (2.5):"Players must first complete the main scenario quest "Let Us Cling Together," and have completed The Bowl of Embers (Hard), The Navel (Hard), and The Howling Eye (Hard)."
Not sure if it still is required - on my alts I pick up the primal quests just in case these days since I don't like hitting a block and backtracking >_>

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

You can white knight the dev teams decisions all you want but in the end it is a major turn off for a lot of people and has caused a lot of people I know personally to walk away. Other games, mmos included, do it way better because they are more creative about it.

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Well, I've played a fair number of MMOs at this point and none of them were able to hold my interest for long because I didn't really feel like what I was doing mattered. FFXIV has held me since beta because I love all the work they put into including lore tidbits in all their quests. NPCS, cities, regions, dungeons, trials, etc... all feel more important because the game gives me information to associate with them. They feel more alive. So, for me, even if the quests were more "creative" in other MMOs, if it didn't feel like what I was doing mattered in the world (or that the story/lore was badly presented), then I'd surely lose interest.

Regardless, 3.0 fixed the whole tedious side-quests problem, and they'll likely streamline things before or with the release of 4.0 (I should think).

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Originally Posted by Evumeimei

Bleh character limit.

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In the end you cant please everyone. The trick as it always is, will be balance. Enough lore and tidbits, character growth moments, drama and comedy, action and romance, all of it is important, but too much of ANY of it, and not enough of others is bad.

Gotta present it well, that means no long strings nor complete disregard.

yeah, getting an alt started is a huge time investment. Wouldn't mind a way to cut through the filler if you've already got a character at max...

Like hundreds of hours investment :/

Even though I don't agree with most of the stuff the OP said, I have no issues with it save for one little tidbit:

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Originally Posted by StormDisciple

TL;DR

FFXIV is crap for new players, dont buy it.

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This is where my sympathy goes away. This is something you say when someone is directly asking you if the game is worth the purchase, and nobody asked the OP jack. As a newer player myself, FFXIV has been nothing short of amazing. Money well spent. Lord knows it can go towards worse things.

Didn't the Dark Knight questline say something about this?
Basically them saying they are sick and tired of helping every John and Jane?

Also, people totally skipping the fact he is talking about the fetch runs.
Not the 'main' storyline per say.
I just skipped over because I wanted to get to the meat of it all.
He ain't wrong about that, it's unnecessary.
Half the stuff needs to literally be a SIDE quest AND not shoved in
the MSQ.

The Dark Knight quests level 30 to 50 wasn't just about being everyone's errand boy; it was also about not getting respect when they actually do the tasks or how they're still treated like garbage even after everything they did.

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Originally Posted by Ninster

What does the level 50 FSH quest have anything to do with this? I don't recall part of the main story requiring this.

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If the MSQ required fisher at 50 I would have quit this game a long time ago..:D :D

I agree with OP. Friends complain about the quests first and foremost the first 2 hours into the game. I try to convince them it'll only get better and that the game really only opens up after you get to endgame. But then i realize all endgame consists of is standing around and quing for duty, waiting in que, running said duty and then repeat as needed/wanted. Then i realized i was only trying to convince myself THAT part was fun.

I stuck around after finishing 2.0 thinking it'll get better. Did not. Held on even longer for 3.0 thinking it'll get better. Not at all. Not making the same mistake waiting around for 4.0.

The only Titans I'm killing now are the humanoid nekkids that eat people. That'll entertain me into XV comes out.

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Originally Posted by WhiteArchmage

So, the main complaint is "WHY can't SE let me do the content that other players did over a year in just a day, tops?!"

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"We all suffered through this years ago, make the new players suffer it too!"

Really the ARR story is all over the place, completely full of filler and paper-thin. I don't know anyone who complains about leveling, but I do know plenty of people who just have better things to do in their time than gather stuff for some banquet for reasons. This is an MMORPG, not a "oh I'm going to do all these solo fetch quests and be the world's secretary for 50 hours" game.

Which is why I loved the dark Knight story. It complained about being the errand boy. But also explains the true value of being a hero

To be honest, most, if not all of the "filler" fetch quests are in place to flesh out the world. To use Tataru's sledgehammer as an example, the quest isn't about getting a hammer for Tataru. It's about learning that the Scions have budget issues, that Tataru is willing to step into some new shoes to try to address the problem (and can very well get in over her head doing so), to reconnect with Forgemaster Brithael and get a reminder that the crafting guilds are actually part of the world (and not just a sidegame for players who like to craft), and so on and so forth.

While they could have just had a wall o' text explaining the Scion's money problems and that Tataru went out to try to mine up some loot to fill the coffers, and thereby bypass the fetch portion - would that really have been better? Traveling from NPC to NPC gives you the feeling that you're actually DOING something, not just reading a book. You're part of the story, not just an observer.

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Originally Posted by Lisotte

"We all suffered through this years ago, make the new players suffer it too!"

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That's the thing, though - we DIDN'T suffer through this years ago. The extraneous fetch quests aren't NEARLY so bad when you only have to deal with them one patch at a time. They really only become onerous when there's two hundred MSQ's stretched out before you, as is the case with new players today (or folks leveling alts).

This, I think, is the real issue, here. New players want to get into the meat of the game, but the game is pretty much telling them that they need to read three novels' worth of story before they can do so. Long-time players were able to read those novels in bite-sized chunks, a bit at a time, all the while staying caught up on game content. A handful of fetch quests between you and your goal is a whole lot more palatable than a hundred or more.

Finding a good solution isn't easy. Story-skip potions have been proposed, but the problem with that is that the storyline later on becomes incomprehensible if you don't have the story leading up to it. It's only really a viable solution for folks who flat-out don't care about story at all.

The solution they went with in FFXI was parallel storylines for the expansions instead of linear: With the exception of the first expansion, all subsequent expansions had storylines that could be advanced at the same time as (or even instead of) the Main Scenario, and did not depend on events in the Main Scenario. That may not be an option in this game, though - it seems pretty evident that the next expansion is going to carry on the story from where it leaves off in Heavensward, and presumably future expansions moving forward will do the same. While Yoshi P has indicated that the next expansion will not lock ALL content behind storyline progression, I think it's safe to say that most of the endgame activities will depend on it, so the problem will still exist - and be even worse.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Finding a good solution isn't easy.

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It would help a tremendous lot if all non-essential quests would simply be reduced to optional sidequests. That way, if you need the XP, you can do them, if you don't, you can leave them and if at some point your interest sparks, you can do them later. We already have precedence of quests involving NPCs that would have no place being in them depending on where you are in the MSQ (DRG/CUL), so I don't think that's a good reason not to do it either.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

It would help a tremendous lot if all non-essential quests would simply be reduced to optional sidequests. That way, if you need the XP, you can do them, if you don\\\\'t, you can leave them and if at some point your interest sparks, you can do them later.

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I agree, side quests are the best answer. It would and could fill the gaps between those level jumps for the MQ and be done in parallel with the MQ rather than impeding your progress.

Its a good overall situation. One I think hits a nice little middleground between those that want to skip the MQ for whatever reason, and those that dont really want to skip the MQ but are fed up with nonsense.

Is it perfect? Nope nothing is. But I honestly dunno any other way to make it work without compromising something other than stubbornness... and maybe their wallets?

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Originally Posted by Taika

Why though? Why is only the newest content worth seeing and experiencing while you haven't seen or experienced any of the old one? You don't start a single player game from the last battle either just because your friend started before you and is already there.

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This has already been answered elsewhere.

Basically, if you are putting players in an online game, the point is not the same as a single-player. The point is not to experience story content alone for the vast, vast majority of MMO players. Most interaction with others is done at endgame, and you'll have 100+ filler quests between ARR and HW alone before you can even get into the most recent expansion pack of content.

FFXIV is also far too easy in early levels to offer a challenge and everything but the most recent content is now done unsynced. Very few people play video games solely to read quests and look at things.

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Originally Posted by FunkYeahDragons

The point is not to experience story content alone for the vast, vast majority of MMO players. Most interaction with others is done at endgame, and you'll have 100+ filler quests between ARR and HW alone before you can even get into the most recent expansion pack of content.

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No, that explanation doesn't work. Because from lvl 10 onwards, you get all kinds of group content that you need to do. Especially at 50, even.
And people actually complain about that. Yes. They get to play with others and complain about that. So saying "Oh they want to reach HW fast to play with others" is bullsh*t because they CAN play with others before that and want to skip it as well.
So Taika totally has a point. Instead of enjoying the experience (be it story, questing OR group content), they just want to rush to endgame because they sooomehow think it's..better? Great? Special? Whatever.

Also, thanks to level sync being a thing, even their max level friends can join them in any and all content, no matter which level the new player is. So no reason to "rush" for the end either as it is perfectly possible to play together before that.

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Originally Posted by Atoli

Also, thanks to level sync being a thing, even their max level friends can join them in any and all content, no matter which level the new player is. So no reason to "rush" for the end either as it is perfectly possible to play together before that.

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Yes, level sync is a thing but I'm certain that most of us won't do it sync'd if we don't have to. If we could find a maxed out lv 60 or two or three to do a lv 23 dungeon (I'm looking at you, Toto-Rak) and do that unsynch to steamroll through it, we will. I know I did when I leveled alts.

I believe it boils down to feeling left behind. A lot of us are already at end-game and I'm sure there are new players who will want to get there as fast as possible. And believe me, the MSQ between 2.1 and 2.55 is ridiculous.

I'll admit, the 2.0-2.55 MSQ could use some pruning. There are a few points that are bit too much of a slog. The big one for me was the Company of Heroes Banquet...which came right after they mock how NPCs waste your time with Trachtotum (the fake Company of Hero guy). It could have simply been "I'd be happy to help, but first could you aid one of our members? Her home is under attack". You do Brayflox's Longstop, feel like a hero for helping her out, and then move on to Titan. He could then introduce you to the other members, and then have side quests if you want to interact with them more.

I'm all for quests that establish lore of the world, or establish character personalities, but "fix F'lhaminn's earrings and gather tea" didn't really add much. There are times where it was executed well (escorting a random jerk professor got...interesting in 2.5), but much of the time it felt wasteful. While I don't know how easy to it would be from a programming standpoint, it would be best to move a lot of those portions to side quests.

I know that SE is capable of improving this. Heavensward did a much better job of it. They gave far more convincing reasons to travel to the various zones, with the plot naturally progressing between areas. Most of the fetch quests were either moved into side quests, or had clear narrative reasons for doing so, such as establishing the Fortemps brother's personalities, or introducing new beast tribes like the Vath. Even then, side quests actually improved drastically, with many of them following little plotlines, such as the Partner-seeking chocobo hunter in Tailfeather, the Convictory plotlines, or the tragic story of a young thief girl in the brume. These not only established the world better than most of ARRs side quests, they were also completely optional and didn't bog down the main story. I'm fairly confident that the 4.0 plotline will be more like the Heavensward in pace, though that still leaves 2.0-2.55 without much improvement. I think with some pruning here and there we could get it at a better pace...and maybe with a aetheryte teleport directly to the Waking Sands.

It's been said a thousand times already that if you can't deal with the MSQ and just want to rush to endgame, you're playing the wrong game. FF, single player or mmo has ALWAYS been about the story, and not being able to progress until certain requisites are fulfilled.

All of these little errands we are put on serve more purpose than a tedious grind to advance the msq. They are there to familiarize yourself with Eorzea, the lasting effects of the calamity, what's going on in the particular town/region you're in and it's surrounding mobs. We are all Miyagi'd with these quests, becoming true Eorzeans in the process.

I get that not many like to grind, but two FF mmos have shown that's what these games are about. The devs have already made things easier such as being able to run content synced with higher level players and giving these players significant bonuses for doing so. I think it is only fair that when it comes to the story and related quests, new players remain required to do them just like everyone else before them. Too much? Too bad.

Removing those 'filler quests' removes so much of the lore and character background from the game. As several posters have said, if you want to play a game without a major story requirement, you're playing the wrong game. With HW the MSQ is more clearly defined and lore/character is more relegated to side quests, which I think is a shame since so many people will never glance at the lore or background. Then again, those same people already skip through these things without reading them, so perhaps the impact will be limited.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

It doesn't matter what excuse the story attempts to offer. If people find the content boring, they aren't going to be invested.

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Then they should either find something to be invested in, stop complaining or find something more suited to them. Ripping these things out of FFXIV would simply relegate it to being yet another game for people with the attention span of a gnat and the imagination of a flea.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

It greatly saddens me that the whole point for the so-called 'fetch quests' in the game is completely lost on most players in this thread - it's part of your job description as an adventurer! Back when you first started the game and signed up at the Adventurer's Guild, the guild proprietor actually tells you right then and there what you are in for - helping people with mundane tasks! And that "rarely will the work be of realm-shaking importance" (paraphrasing how Miounne stated it in Gridania), but that it was still important, as it helps build trust and rapport with the people of Eorzea, a people who have experienced a horrible cataclysm caused by foreign powers.
**snip**
Really, if you come into this game expecting nothing but mindless battles and stomping through random environments without a care in the world, you will be disappointed - everything you do in here has a story-reason for doing so, cause and effect and all that. Always there is a reason why you're being sent into that Allagan ruin or Garlean fortress or abandoned mine. It's a FF game after all, and FF games are story-based RPGs, even the MMO titles like FFXI and XIV. How hard is it to understand that?

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Awesome post and I agree completely. Thank you for saying it all so well.