Fix paladin. Only Class in the entire game that cannot...

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Originally Posted by Lyth

The reason why PLD's Flash does no damage is because it costs MP, rather than TP.

Making Flash do damage is a bit like making BLM's Flare cost TP instead of MP. You might as well make it cost 0 MP at that point, as it's effectively free dps with no meaningful resource cost. I know that Flash and Unleash seem to be similar superficially, but MP management is absolutely critical when playing DRK, and is absolutely trivial when playing PLD.

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Pld might not need so much mana, but clemency and stances do cost mana - as I don't ignore the skill I had the chance to enjoy being unable to change the stance on few occasions and it's lovely feeling. Being able to spam flash for "free" dps would actually make the mana management less trivial than it is right now.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

The reason why PLD's Flash does no damage is because it costs MP, rather than TP.

Making Flash do damage is a bit like making BLM's Flare cost TP instead of MP. You might as well make it cost 0 MP at that point, as it's effectively free dps with no meaningful resource cost. I know that Flash and Unleash seem to be similar superficially, but MP management is absolutely critical when playing DRK, and is absolutely trivial when playing PLD.

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Whatever the reason is, it's not good enough to warrant PLD doing such utterly bad AoE dps compared to other tanks. It's not like you'll die instantly if you run out of mana for a GCD or two on DRK. Think of this way, losing your Darkside for a few seconds (usually you don't unless you're bad) is still much less of a loss than any and every Flash a PLD is forced to use (can't avoid them, even if you're not bad).

Hell, PLD could use the "free dps" since they bottom out on TP way faster than DRK anyway, and DRK has plenty of "free dps" from their mp even with better TP management.

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Originally Posted by Caitlyn

I would like to use Raise (conjurer cross skill) during battle, too.
In fact, PLD got too many cross skills, which arent very usefull.

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This. being able to raise in battle would be so damn great.

As for paladins problems. I think a lot of them stem from the fact that it is a highly defensive focussed class is a very offensive orientated game..
and in 99% of content the defensive toolkit a paladin has is worthless. divine viel wont save you from a failed dps check for example. and if you pass the dps check you take take no damage at all so divine viel doesn't make a difference.

Just checked some 1.20 GLD/PLD skills and i must say most of them were way more interesing what we have now, both Rampart and Sentinel had enmity bonuses while they were active(sentinel had also way shorter CD back then)not to mention skills like Outmaneuver: Increases block rate and grants TP for each block made while effect is active. Recast Time: 90sec. / Duration: 30sec. that would have solved all TP problems this job had instead nerfing cost on weapon skills.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post476429

Rampart just generated a flat amount of enmity for every person it affected (it was AOE). Sentinel had an enmity generation bonus and it was like 90s cooldown. 1.23 Rampart would be closer to AOE foresight + magic foresight. Outmaneuver was kinda okay but TP generation was way different and Outmaneuver didn't really increase your block rate enough to be effective on its own. Had to pair it with the revamped Divine Veil.

Anyway I think it's a pretty common sentiment that 1.23 paladin to 2.0 paladin was a big downgrade as far as cool skills goes. We've gotten a lot of stuff back in some form since 3.0, but some stuff is still half dead. I think 1.23 spirits within was way cooler than the one we have, for example. The two are very similar, but 1.23 SW required a combo that started with a block reaction attack (Phalanx), had a 1 minute cooldown and SUPER hard. It was a really big part of your damage and enmity so you kinda wanted to hit it with high HP.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

Pld might not need so much mana, but clemency and stances do cost mana

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The real cost to clemency is cast time. The real cost of stance swapping is the GCD activation. These translate into a dps losses. You pay for the ability to use these skills with dps.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

Whatever the reason is, it's not good enough to warrant PLD doing such utterly bad AoE dps compared to other tanks. It's not like you'll die instantly if you run out of mana for a GCD or two on DRK. Think of this way, losing your Darkside for a few seconds (usually you don't unless you're bad) is still much less of a loss than any and every Flash a PLD is forced to use (can't avoid them, even if you're not bad).

Hell, PLD could use the "free dps" since they bottom out on TP way faster than DRK anyway, and DRK has plenty of "free dps" from their mp even with better TP management.

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PLD does need to have its AoE toolkit expanded. TP is a resource that actually matters to PLD. Having a GCD AoE dps move tied to a TP cost (like it does on WAR) is one possibility. Giving PLD a new resource to manage, either through block procs or some other mechanic, is another. But tying a dps move on PLD to MP alone makes little sense, unless you want to turn it into a simplified version of DRK.

Also, losing Darkside when there are active mobs, even for a few seconds, is just like losing uptime on Maim or Heavy Thrust. It's a serious enough error that you should prioritise fixing that first before trying to troubleshoot any other weaknesses in your rotation. Even aside from dps, it locks you out of a significant portion of your toolkit, mitigation moves included.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

divine viel wont save you from a failed dps check for example. and if you pass the dps check you take take no damage at all so divine viel doesn't make a difference.

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DV is one of the most powerful raid mitigation abilities in the game. It's also one of the factors that you consider when deciding to use PLD in a raid comp. Mitigation advantages can always be converted into dps gains.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

TP is a resource that actually matters to PLD. Having a GCD AoE dps move tied to a TP cost (like it does on WAR) is one possibility.

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You can't give PLD a TP based AoE without changing multiple things about the class. PLDs have the worst TP management of all tanks, giving them a 100+ TP costing AoE is going to absolutely murder them. WAR gets away with TP cost because they have Equilibrium, Steel Cyclone/Decimate, Inner Beast/Fell Cleave, and Berserk pacification. Every single one of those gives WAR more TP to play around with. PLD has none of those tools so giving them another TP sink would kill their TP with no ways to get it back.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Also, losing Darkside when there are active mobs, even for a few seconds, is just like losing uptime on Maim or Heavy Thrust. It's a serious enough error that you should prioritise fixing that first before trying to troubleshoot any other weaknesses in your rotation. Even aside from dps, it locks you out of a significant portion of your toolkit, mitigation moves included.

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Also, using Flash when there are active mobs, even for a few seconds, is just like losing uptime on Maim or Heavy Thrust, but an even worse dps loss. It's a serious enough error that you should prioritise fixing that first before trying to troubleshoot any other weaknesses in your rotation. Even aside from dps, it locks you out of a significant portion of your toolkit when you bottom out on MP, mitigation moves included, like Clemency, Shield/Sword Oath and Flash.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

PLD has none of those tools so giving them another TP sink would kill their TP with no ways to get it back.

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But nothing prevents them from giving PLD both a TP-costing AoE AND a mean to restore its TP.

PLD does need adjustments to its TP management, and I would love to see the job get a TP management skill, especially for longer fights. But at the moment, TP is the only meaningful resource on PLD. It doesn't matter if you're managing TP, MP, or stacks, as long as your dps moves are actually tied to a resource that you're forced to manage. If that isn't the case, you remove meaningful decision making from the job.

Also, if you're using:
1) Flash spam (i.e. spamming a 0 dps enmity move)
2) in Sword Oath (i.e. reducing your enmity generation on the abovementioned 0 dps enmity move while you spam it) and
3) get locked out of Shield Oath as a result (i.e. not planning your stance swaps on a scripted encounter)

then I suspect that no amount of job redesign will be of assistance, unfortunately.

Fine, whatever, if you refuse to see the parallels, there's no point arguing.

I still think TP based solutions are way harder to implement. They would also make MP even more of a throw-away resource. As long as they gave Flash a potency, that's less than Goring Blade rotation potency, it would play out exactly as it does now with the same decision making. You use Flash only when you absolutely have to and immediately switch to Goring Blade afterwards. As long as Flash does less than 1020/3=340 potency per GCD, you're still going to switch to Goring Blade as soon as you don't need to Flash for enmity. That means you could give Flash a potency of 100, and against 3 enemies it would have zero effect on current gameplay style. If that's too powerful, you could balance it against 5 mobs and give it a meager potency of 60. A simple change like that would make Flash a meaningful ability, and give PLD some tools to catch up to DRK and WAR when against 3+ or 5+ mobs.

Sure, stack systems and TP changes and so on would be nice, but by far the most simple way to fix PLD AoE is to just fix this one ability.

paladin is supposed to be the easiest class to play. managing their mp is already plenty challanging, we shouldnt have to lose aoe dps just because we dont want to be a drk. being the easy class it should be able to do at least as much dps as drks and wars. square is already nerfing wars even more though come 4.0so tahts a step in the right direction of getting back to pld being the fulltime MT. hopefully they dont screw it up and nerf drk too.

The Flash doesn't have to do damage by itself. Personally I would rather see some changes made to the Blind effect - increasing its duration or changing how the resistance works and adding vulnerability etc.

Just in case this suggestion hasn't been tossed out already:

- If/when RNG mitigation is eventually reworked, allow for dodge, blocks, and parries to stack (no longer 100% dodges; you create a glancing blow, even while further mitigating the attack with a block and/or parry where all of these chances are increased as enemy accuracy decreases). Evasion or reduced enemy accuracy then increases counterattack opportunities, instead of reducing them.

- Bake unique counterattack mechanics into Gladiator that most shine in AoE situations.

> Now Flash adds MT damage and you benefit from supporting Dark Arts - Dark Passenger casts, etc.

Alternatively, if SE just made it so PLDs could dodge, parry, or especially block while casting, you stop losing extra health while casting Clemency, so you can better cover your healing needs while your AST spams Gravity or WHM spams Holy past the stun-lock.

Or just make circle of scorn an enmity generator and put it on the gcd. I agree make flash something cool and pld exclusive. Only thing is warrior might miss flash

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Originally Posted by MiniPrinny

Paladins have an identity. They're the royal knight that leads the party through their darkest hours.

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And where, exactly, are you getting this identity? Because in my playing Paladin (and my tireless examination of it), that's not the identity I picked up.

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Originally Posted by MiniPrinny

The problem is that most players don't get to see Paladin at its fullest. What Paladins do to ease A7S is disgusting. Their healing, support, and defensive abilities all have a use in that fight, and their single-target offensive power has plenty of time to shine. A Paladin could prevent a tank swap if you're using a Dark Knight main tank, a Paladin can ease the damage on a damage dealer after the double-stack Sizzlebeam, a Paladin can use Divine Veil regularly throughout the fight to soak Sizzlespark damage, a Paladin can take healer and tank jails with no issue and actually preforms better in the final tank jail than their peers, a Paladin can effortlessly transition to phase six through the use of Hallowed Ground, a Paladin OT can stun-lock the True Hearts in phases three and seven. And I'm sure I'm missing more of their maximum potential in that fight alone.

Paladins just don't get enough opportunity to heal their allies, soak damage in ways that the other tanks just can't, mitigate otherwise nigh-deadly AoEs to something manageable, give healers plenty of time to pitch in extremely helpful damage, ect. Regardless of their lack of opportunity, I think Paladins are the most well balanced tank. They have clear cut strengths and weaknesses, they sacrifice AoE damage and overall damage for unparalleled support and a toolkit rivaled only by Machinists. Meanwhile, Warrior is too strong (even Yoshida has admitted to this) and only has "requires high skill to maximize potential" as their drawback, and Dark Knight, even though I main and love it, is a hot mess.

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So you're saying that the established identity of Paladins is the one who leads the charge, but then you're saying their best position in a raid comp is as OT beside a DRK? That seems a bit inconsistent (which makes sense, because the Paladin toolkit itself is very schizophrenic; we are most performant when we are not "leading the charge", but our shield, its mechanics, and our cooldowns supposedly make us best suited to do exactly that).

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Just in case this suggestion hasn't been tossed out already:

- If/when RNG mitigation is eventually reworked, allow for dodge, blocks, and parries to stack (no longer 100% dodges; you create a glancing blow, even while further mitigating the attack with a block and/or parry where all of these chances are increased as enemy accuracy decreases). Evasion or reduced enemy accuracy then increases counterattack opportunities, instead of reducing them.

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I like this idea, because then no one would laugh at me for being a Parry-stacking PLD. Or okay, a lot fewer people would laugh at me for it.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

- Bake unique counterattack mechanics into Gladiator that most shine in AoE situations.

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YES. I like this as either an automatic thing or as an oGCD proc on damage taken (with a 1-sec internal CD). Make it so you can either counterattack one enemy for 100 potency, or slash all enemies in front of you for 60 potency apiece in response to a successful block/parry/dodge.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

> Now Flash adds MT damage and you benefit from supporting Dark Arts - Dark Passenger casts, etc.

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This would add some nice utility, but I'm genuinely curious as to how they'd be able to code for this (since MT isn't a hard-coded thing). Maybe tie it to the top of the enmity table?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Alternatively, if SE just made it so PLDs could dodge, parry, or especially block while casting, you stop losing extra health while casting Clemency, so you can better cover your healing needs while your AST spams Gravity or WHM spams Holy past the stun-lock.

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I believe it's been suggested before, but Tempered Will could be modified to fit this role pretty well. If they reduced the cooldown to say 120s and made it so players could dodge, parry, and block incoming attacks as well as avoid interruption, it would be very useful. They could also add a component where blocking has a 10% chance to reset the cooldown.

I'd also like to see a GLD skill that turns Parry into Block Rate. If we have a shield, it doesn't make sense for us to stop an attack with our sword.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

And where, exactly, are you getting this identity? Because in my playing Paladin (and my tireless examination of it), that's not the identity I picked up.

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Did you just click through all the class and job quests and not read anything? Because that is exactly what the Paladin is.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

YES. I like this as either an automatic thing or as an oGCD proc on damage taken (with a 1-sec internal CD). Make it so you can either counterattack one enemy for 100 potency, or slash all enemies in front of you for 60 potency apiece in response to a successful block/parry/dodge.

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I'd be OK with some sort of Trait for Bulwark that let you counter-attack for 50-75 potency whenever you block an attack while Bulwark is active. But permanent oGCD AoE attacks whenever you block or parry or dodge? How do you spell overpowered again?

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

If we have a shield, it doesn't make sense for us to stop an attack with our sword.

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Actually it makes perfect sense. Your shield only covers one side of your body. On the other side of your body is... a sword!

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Originally Posted by Paikis

Did you just click through all the class and job quests and not read anything? Because that is exactly what the Paladin is.

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Take a look at the essay I wrote, linked in my signature, titled: "What Makes a Paladin." I am very intimately familiar with the travesty of the class' story and lack of in-game definition.

EDIT: In case you can't see my signature for some reason: What Makes a Paladin

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

YES. I like this as either an automatic thing or as an oGCD proc on damage taken (with a 1-sec internal CD). Make it so you can either counterattack one enemy for 100 potency, or slash all enemies in front of you for 60 potency apiece in response to a successful block/parry/dodge.

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They could simply bring back Shield Swipe on GCD and make it a conal AoE like War Drum was in 1.x. (With the proper potency)

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

-snip-

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"A free paladin has no master. Instead she travels all lands, and in every place takes up the cause of the unarmed and defenseless. You swear fealty not to a lord, but to yourself─you are nobility amongst adventurers." - Jenlyns, in the very first Paladin quest: "Paladin's Pledge"

Additionally, I only mentioned the situations where their brief reprise as an off-tank comes into play. Raid tanking isn't a set "OT does DPS, MT tanks most of the fight" situation, it never has been. The OT in this game spends their fair share of almost every fight tanking, soaking attacks with the MT, or dealing with mechanics that the MT can't due to lack of resources, the risk being too high, or the enemies being too strong. You lead the charge regardless of your role in that fight in particular, you just may not always be handling the boss directly depending on the situation, which is fine.

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Originally Posted by MiniPrinny

"A free paladin has no master. Instead she travels all lands, and in every place takes up the cause of the unarmed and defenseless. You swear fealty not to a lord, but to yourself─you are nobility amongst adventurers." - Jenlyns, in the very first Paladin quest: "Paladin's Pledge"

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Considering the Paladins in this game are members of the Sultansworn, this description has nothing to do with the lore of the job.
Another funny thing, the PLD quest is the only one where your goal is your own pride...while Warriors learn to control their Inner Beast thanks to their desire of protecting people...

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Considering the Paladins in this game are members of the Sultansworn, this description has nothing to do with the lore of the job.

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No, our characters are free paladins, not sultansworn paladins. Rewatch the 30-50 cutscenes.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Considering the Paladins in this game are members of the Sultansworn, this description has nothing to do with the lore of the job.

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lol come on my man

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Originally Posted by Launched

No, our characters are free paladins, not sultansworn paladins. Rewatch the 30-50 cutscenes.

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Paladins are the elite of the sultansworn, and this is their captain that teaches us our skills. Even if we're rogue Paladin, the identity tied to our skills is that of a royal guard.
Even Solkzagyl's final skill is called "Sultan's Brand"

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Paladins are the elite of the sultansworn, and this is their captain that teaches us our skills. Even if we're rogue Paladin, the identity tied to our skills is that of a royal guard.
Even Solkzagyl's final skill is called "Sultan's Brand"

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http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Keeping_the_Oath
" In recognition of your deeds, he bestows upon you the gallant surcoat, sacred armor normally reserved for the most courageous of the Sultansworn. Although this is a violation of long-standing tradition, he believes there is no paladin more deserving of the honor. Wear your new armor with pride, free paladin, and continue to defend the people of Eorzea."

Straight from the journal of the level 50 quest.

Solkzagyl also talks about how it took a free paladin to make Oathkeeper shine again/show them the way etc.

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Originally Posted by Jenlyns

A true paladin is one who bends his knee to a higher cause, and offers his sword and shield without promise of reward.
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But remember that fancy swordplay and well-polished armor do not make you a paladin. You must be just in your heart and strive always to be an exemplar of true virtue.
...
A free paladin has no master. Instead he travels all lands, and in every place takes up the cause of the unarmed and defenseless. You swear fealty not to a lord, but to yourself - you are nobility amongst adventurers.

... Soul of the Paladin ... He who bears it commands the respect of all knights of honor.

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Speaking of Oathkeeper, I want Oathkeeper. It looks super rad with the damascus steel swirly stuff on the blade.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

Speaking of Oathkeeper, I want Oathkeeper. It looks super rad with the damascus steel swirly stuff on the blade.

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Maybe after WoW ripped off the relic idea from FFXIV (and the other games that had it), Yoshida will rip them off back and give us weapons like Oathkeeper.

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Originally Posted by Launched

Straight from the journal of the level 50 quest.

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It confirms that the skill we learn and the armor we get is indeed from a Royal guard. That's the lore of the job, even if we're personally not restricted by it. Exactly like the lore of Warrior claims that the Inner Beast is what makes ancient warriors destroy themselves, yet we have absolutely no issue with it right from the start.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

Solkzagyl also talks about how it took a free paladin to make Oathkeeper shine again/show them the way etc.

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Yes, and do we manage to make it shine ? By measuring the size of our longsword against each other...

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

It confirms that the skill we learn and the armor we get is indeed from a Royal guard.

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But remember that fancy swordplay and well-polished armor do not make you a paladin. You must be just in your heart and strive always to be an exemplar of true virtue.

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TeeheeeeeeeeeeeHEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Oh and you make it shine by being a truer knight than anyone else in the realm. Strength in combat is part of that.

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Maybe after WoW ripped off the relic idea from FFXIV (and the other games that had it), Yoshida will rip them off back and give us weapons like Oathkeeper.

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Yeah I was thinking about that but the implementation would probably be godawful. If they went with WoW-style ilvl upgrades that'd be best but there'd probably be nonstop bitching about how soandso's relic is better because they get raid drops. If they went with FFXIV-style you'd get maximum power from running god damn low level roulette for hours on end.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

Oh and you make it shine by being a truer knight than anyone else in the realm.

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Shouldn't a knight express his true nature when protecting his friends ? Or shouldn't he seek to defend the innocent against injustice and corruption ?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Shouldn't a knight express his true nature when protecting his friends ? Or shouldn't he seek to defend the innocent against injustice and corruption ?

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That's exactly what you're doing when you're stopping primals, killing Nidhogg, destroying Ishgard's corrupt religion, delivering food, and sniffing chocobos.

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Originally Posted by Launched

That's exactly what you're doing when you're stopping primals, killing Nidhogg, destroying Ishgard's corrupt religion, delivering food, and sniffing chocobos.

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Then every job is a true knight ? No wonder some people feel that PLD lacks proper identity.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Then every job is a true knight ? No wonder some people feel that PLD lacks proper identity.

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As The Honest Grey Knight, I have to say that the game is definitely forcing everyone to be the white knight by the lack of anti-heroic choices, which might be creating problems for our paladin identity.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

As The Honest Grey Knight, I have to say that the game is definitely forcing everyone to be the white knight by the lack of anti-heroic choices, which might be creating problems for our paladin identity.

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I personally don't feel like the MSQ is really ripping our PLD identity.
However, the "fighting for your friend is your true strength" and "innocents should be protected from the corruption" of WAR and DRK storyline totally do !
Without even dealing about what PLD's identity should be, gameplay wise, which was also mostly denied.

Gameplay wise I think that paladin should have been the support tank - focused on party buffing. Skills like the battle litany, mantra or even speed from the fairy would make sense for the job. Having the elite guard background paladins most likely end up in the position of leadership and motivation based skills would be awesome job identity... unfortunately it is not the case and we are the "defensive" tank instead.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

Gameplay wise I think that paladin should have been the support tank - focused on party buffing.

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For me, as a "Main tank" it should have focused its survival on healing, being the only tank that requires knowledge in magic, and as an "Off tank", on covering people in time of need.
Two things that are severely downplayed.

A blunt idea that could have been interesting is allowing Rampart and Sentinel to be used on a target. Maybe the enhanced version would only apply when used on you, to not be too powerful. And Cover made into a trait triggered by critical HP and proximity.

Personally i dont feel paladin has an identity crisis.

I feel Paladin lacks skills with which to perform one the two absolute requirements this game demands. (job wise) Black Mage got a buff to do more damage to take into consideration it needs to move, Paladin should get an adjustment considering it cant effectively be a tank and deal damage to any real degree in a multiple mob situation at the same time.

"Movement"

"Damage"


The entire battle system is based around these two things, one of which Paladin lacks to ability to do with flash entirely, which currently it stands as its sole area of effect enmity generation.

You CAN single target in a multiple enemy situation, but lets be realistic, everyone wants to do speed runs and everyone wants to do massive damage.

I'm not asking for paladin to do more damage than warrior, i'm asking it actually do damage with a single area of effect attack.

Updated original post:


PLD level 8
***War Drum***
Spell:
Delivers an attack with your shield at a potency of 90 (or 100) to all nearby enemies.
Additional Effect: Increased Enmity
Cast: instant
Recast: (weaponskill time)
MP: (707 at level 60)
Range 0y
Radius 5y

PLD level 50
***Flash***
Spell:
Delivers blinding light damage with a potency of 100 to all nearby enemies
Additional effect: Increased enmity
Additional effect: Damage over time Potency 30 Duration: 15s
Additional effect: Blind Duration 12s
Cast: Instant
Recast 25.00s
Range 0y
Radius 5y


Effectively switching the effects of Circle of Scorn and Flash, but changing Circle of Scorn to War Drum.

I feel this would make paladin more fun to play, as flash would be more situational and encouraged to time (because of the blind)

While also giving Paladin a fun ability again, to allow it to keep threat and deal damage. The animation for Circle of Scorn doesnt even make sense to me personally.




Black mage received a change because of turn 9, due to its supposed high demand of movement, and the jobs ability to do damage based upon that demand..

Paladin should get a change because flash does absolutely 0 damage and its paladins sole, singular, area of effect enmity generation. There is circle of scorn, but thats like saying black mage has scathe, and scathe should be its main source of damage in turn 9. Which is absurd. Dont go there.

Just modify Clemency. Lower the MP Cost similar to a whm's Cure 1 or Cure 2 spell, and give it additional effect: enmity. That way you can use your other tools to generate initial hate, then use Clemency for upkeep.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

And where, exactly, are you getting this identity? Because in my playing Paladin (and my tireless examination of it), that's not the identity I picked up. ...


...So you're saying that the established identity of Paladins is the one who leads the charge, but then you're saying their best position in a raid comp is as OT beside a DRK? That seems a bit inconsistent (which makes sense, because the Paladin toolkit itself is very schizophrenic; we are most performant when we are not "leading the charge", but our shield, its mechanics, and our cooldowns supposedly make us best suited to do exactly that).

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Just to summarize my thoughts on this three-page argument that started here:

Our purpose as a free Paladin is allegedly to defend the innocent, lead the charge, and protect our allies. However, every one of our skills (at the very least up to 50) comes directly from the <not free> Sultansworn Paladins. Our only difference is we took this knowledge meant to use within that particular group, a glorified royal guard, and can now use it... freely. That does not mean that the skills themselves have ever necessarily be designed for that new purpose. Lore says we should do all that, but it doesn't necessarily say we're thereby equipped to do so — only that we have managed well enough, when we aren't busy talking about our pride, feigning death, or pursuing legendary swords.

tldr; in some cases here, our lore and the job's lore are not one and the same. But our skills are the job's, whatever new purpose we may attempt to assign them to.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

YES. I like this as either an automatic thing or as an oGCD proc on damage taken (with a 1-sec internal CD). Make it so you can either counterattack one enemy for 100 potency, or slash all enemies in front of you for 60 potency apiece in response to a successful block/parry/dodge.

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I'd hope it'd be more interesting than merely that execution, but, yes, something to that effect. I was imagining something more like attacks against you that are <sufficiently> mitigated (see suggested change) can be automatically deflected into an enemy based on positioning, or may cause your currently queued attack to go off early — adding to skill-cap as a PLD is able to potentially just about double their attack speed by swapping between attacking targets based on immediacy of their next strike. Something that feels like more than just a Shield Swipe A and B.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

This would add some nice utility, but I'm genuinely curious as to how they'd be able to code for this (since MT isn't a hard-coded thing). Maybe tie it to the top of the enmity table?

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I meant it indirectly. As the accuracy reduction from Flash would increase their chance of being blocked, dodged, or parried, it could indirectly increase counter-attack damage done by their target(s).

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

I believe it's been suggested before, but Tempered Will could be modified to fit this role pretty well. If they reduced the cooldown to say 120s and made it so players could dodge, parry, and block incoming attacks as well as avoid interruption, it would be very useful. They could also add a component where blocking has a 10% chance to reset the cooldown.

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In regards to Clemency causing the Paladin to take unintended increased damage by being unable to block, dodge, or parry during the cast time, I think Tempered Will would be a poor solution. Paladin cast animations themselves occurs with the shield held forward, and as such I believe it would make sense if blocking at least were still available during the cast time. The lack of all RNG mitigation during the cast time noticeably impacts its self-use or "MT" value, especially during effects such as Bulwark or (correct me if I'm wrong -- Featherfoot vs. magic damage debate v2) Flash. I don't especially care what is done to balance that out, but unless it really is specifically meant to be used primarily just for support, it seems to suffer from oversights.

That said, as a way to prep for heavy attacks however, atop or in place of possible RNG mitigation, I too would like to see Tempered Will grant interruption immunity throughout the duration. However, I'd rather not see added RNG dependence on what would then be such a valuable tool, especially for those fights in which you cannot block or parry the attacks anyways (caster bosses).

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

I'd also like to see a GLD skill that turns Parry into Block Rate. If we have a shield, it doesn't make sense for us to stop an attack with our sword.

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While it would make plenty of sense in a real life setting, albeit less frequently used except to wind and counter through the better control of the cross (unless your shield is somehow capable of similar control due to whatever shape it may have (?)), it does indeed make little sense so long as the options are mutually exclusive and the shield superior in throughput and opportunities for following actions. To be clear, the sword is generally unnecessary for covering more of your body; your stance matches your shield type — squared off only if your shield is large enough to accommodate it, while having one foot forward as we do ingame if not necessarily so. Your shield should cover the whole of your facing, whether statically (as with a tower) or actively (as with a buckler). ...If anything, I just wonder why our bucklers aren't held out in front of us with the sword resting against it, fully at the ready while giving both arms' worth of strength in a deflection...

The solution seems simple though: just rename "Parry" to "Guard", which would then happen to affect the shield instead for Gladiator/Paladin.
Or, RNG mitigation types do not remain mutually exclusive, it'd give whatever combination of the two would seem optimal (until later changes, this would probably still be purely the shield).
Or you replace the RNG and anti-physical niche-ing outright and just give it added Def/mDef.

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Originally Posted by Lan_Mantear

Just modify Clemency. Lower the MP Cost similar to a whm's Cure 1 or Cure 2 spell, and give it additional effect: enmity. That way you can use your other tools to generate initial hate, then use Clemency for upkeep.

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If I recall correctly, Clemency's enmity is already affected by Shield Oath. A single Conv-Clemency overheal Crit has held enmity for some 10 seconds or more for me while waiting for mobs to gather. As an overheal, it's more GCD-efficient for enmity than Flash, even if by no means more mana-efficient, and it has unlimited range, so long as the enemies you want to attract are already on your enemy list. Also, the MP cost is the only thing that keeps a PLD from having massively more healing per minute than a DRK or WAR.

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

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Why effectively remove Flash, only to then bake it into Circle of Scorn? You're changing Flash to a physical Unleash, and then giving CoS a blind. Why though?

Additionally, a couple points of interest: Right now every PLD oGCD does identical maximum single-target dps over time. That seems very intentional, even if not especially important, on SE's part. This would break that, and I'm not sure for what benefit.
How? Because of the real point here: Blind = mitigation = healer dps. Potentially.

Flash's real concerns, in my opinion are simply these:
- Too many enemies are immune it its effects.
- It cannot stack.

Both can be fixed, though both may require something slightly new coding-wise to remain balanced, and the latter may require an element of compromise.
- If Blind were to work on everything, the potential % accuracy decrease could serve alike to an on-demand Dark Arts - Dark Dance. This would be overpowered when that could potentially save some 12k health. Especially when you consider that your only other way of generating that health, Clemency, would have cost you RNG mitigation during its cast and would take up almost half your mana. Alternatively, when incoming damage is quite low, the added healer dps uptime it may cause might not be worth even a single Fast Blade. As such, the blind needs to aim for a potency-equivalent level of accuracy reduction. In other words, the stronger you get compared to the enemy, the stronger the Blind gets. Your GCDs lost on Flash over time should have fairly obvious returns in the form of healer dps or stance-dancing. -- I believe this system would have benefits game-wide.
- The second issue is that Flash gains no benefit for being used before the duration fades completely, as not to lose maximum debuff uptime over the diminishing returns, whereas its competing tank AoEs can be spammed. This doesn't mean that it needs to be scrapped and replaced with yet another damage AoE. It just needs to have the ability to be burst as needed similarly to the others without having counter-synergy, lest the theoretical strength of the ability (without that counter-synergy) be too strong as to balance for these more practical uses. To that end, it needs to be able to either add effect (e.g. flat accuracy reduction, where the enemy's base accuracy increases as you get into more serious content, making a lesser % effect in later tiers assuming the same player strength), or duration (while the initial effect is increased and more standardized but the duration is dependent on enemy strength). -- I believe both of these systems, too, will need to be added eventually into the game.

And there you have a Flash that remains Flash, unique, a tankily tank AoE, while meeting those "absolute needs".

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

For me, as a "Main tank" it should have focused its survival on healing, being the only tank that requires knowledge in magic, and as an "Off tank", on covering people in time of need.
Two things that are severely downplayed.

A blunt idea that could have been interesting is allowing Rampart and Sentinel to be used on a target. Maybe the enhanced version would only apply when used on you, to not be too powerful. And Cover made into a trait triggered by critical HP and proximity.

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What difference does it make whether you Rampart someone else or take the blow yourself with Rampart active, except that you have more base mitigation that most and would have access to the enhanced versions. Sure, we'd potentially want something for when Provoke or Cover are down, but I for one would rather then see our snap-tanking capabilities improved rather than going a SCH-ish route of saving people from afar. Generally speaking.

I still do feel a little peeved that Shelltron neither covers allies behind you, nor (in the form of something like "Aegis Boon" instead) can it be cast on others for a more direct shield. (Which would be SCH af, so I accept all accusations of hypocrisy.)

That ast bubble, where youre immobile, why doesnt paladin have something that keeps them in place reduces damage recieved and reflects damage with a generous enmity mod like vengeance, i mean something like that screams defensive tank. even in parts of speed runs youll be standing there holding 10- a billion enemies for the dps to burn down, have it deactivate the same way

Tempered Will actually sounds like it could do this, prevent knockback like youre so stern planting yourself in defense that enemies attacking you hurt themselves by doing so....
This could probably be op though , as maybe as an ot utility for fights like titan or living liquid the allies stacked in the bubble could also have knockback prevented for the duration its up...man that sounds really good actually...