It’s also all but a given that the expansion will include at least two new jobs.

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Originally Posted by DreamWeaver

Why on Earth does a Scholar GAINS MP when he spends more time DPSing?! (by virtue of Energy Drains).

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Energy Drain does give back MP, but a full time DPSing Scholar will not stay at 100% MP. The DoT rotation along with Broil fillers use up more MP than you get back via Energy Drain and Aetherflow. Not to mention that when we do have to mitigate/heal, our MP costs are significantly higher. If there's one thing that does seem to be balanced among the three healers at the moment, it's MP management. None of the three really seem to struggle with it, it's definitely not a skill you have to learn like 2.x WHMs had to.

One thing I do agree on is that if we do get a fourth healer, it should definitely be competitive with Scholars. However, given how badly they implemented Astrologian I'm hoping they just make a new Tank and DPS.

If we do get another shield based healer though, I would like for Astrologian to get Noct. sect removed and a 'slight' buff to their card game. I think the majority of buffs need to go to White Mage, especially if they make the Mind party bonus universal. It has no niche outside of stronger heals, which so far have not been necessary in any content.

White Mage also has the niche of extremely high AoE burst damage for a healer. Scholar might have the most sustainable AoE, and Astrologian has a stunless, lower cost ranged version of Holy, but neither of them can kill a group as fast as the Holy/Aero3/Holy/Assize/Holy spam combo.

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Originally Posted by Rennies

White Mage also has the niche of extremely high AoE burst damage for a healer. Scholar might have the most sustainable AoE, and Astrologian has a stunless, lower cost ranged version of Holy, but neither of them can kill a group as fast as the Holy/Aero3/Holy/Assize/Holy spam combo.

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This sounds more like dungeon content though. When talking about balancing jobs you need to consider end game raiding content. There aren't a whole lot of situations where a healer will need to AoE DPS in savage, and with WHM being a main healer they won't have much of an opportunity anyway, or won't have accuracy melded to even pull that off. Plus it wouldn't be feasible in most situations during progression due to mana.

As it stands, if they make the Mind bonus universal I do think WHM will need the most buffs. Having the strongest heals is never going to make WHM shine, as they can no longer make content where it will be required. Otherwise they alienate AST from a party position and create yet another AST related imbalance.

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Originally Posted by Ceasaria

In the end, Scholar is fine, Astro need a rework anyway for his cards and stances, and White Mage need a nerf.

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...lolWhat?

They technically added 4 classes. That's what they were having problems with. Releasing Ninja in 2.4 (or 3, I can't remember) along with the 3 for expansion.

I would LOVE to see another tank class but it will not bring tank numbers up. You will always have a few more as healers, and the majority of players as dps (regardless of how bad they are lol).

We know for a fact they are releasing SAM. There's no doubt about it. Just not sure what they are going to do with it.


IF they release a new healer... I really really really really hope it's dancer.

probably afraid to implement those two we think itll be after seeing so many heated debates on whether to make them tank dps or healer, so theyll give us two ones we didnt even see coming. or ffxiv "exclusive " jobs.

What about a samurai that splits into tank and dps jobs like Arcanist does at 30? Have a heavily armored, defensive samurai as a tank and a lighter version with more emphasis on speed or whatever for dps.

I doubt they will make an other twin class
Beside same problem as arc

If you got tank you need VIT trait if dps you need STR or DEX
Which mean switching

From Reddit "Part II: Other Japanese Community Related Questions to Yoshida and Answers from 3 Year Anniversary Broadcast.":

- Yoshida almost slipped through the amount of jobs 4.0 will have (It's related to the Moonfaire Faire)

So, 3 rangers = 3 jobs :)

Samurai for Yellow, Red Mage for Red, and Necromancer for Black :)

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Originally Posted by Ceasaria

From Reddit "Part II: Other Japanese Community Related Questions to Yoshida and Answers from 3 Year Anniversary Broadcast.":

- Yoshida almost slipped through the amount of jobs 4.0 will have (It's related to the Moonfaire Faire)

So, 3 rangers = 3 jobs :)

Samurai for Yellow, Red Mage for Red, and Necromancer for Black :)

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really now?

EDIT: Just read the article from reddit, and also a new thread just got added with pretty much the synopsis of that, this is cool now its time for more speculating

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Originally Posted by gehrtalert

What about a samurai that splits into tank and dps jobs like Arcanist does at 30? Have a heavily armored, defensive samurai as a tank and a lighter version with more emphasis on speed or whatever for dps.

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They've said a few times that the SCH/SMN split has been very problematic. And, with the balance issues towards the end of ARR, that they couldn't really buff SMN until HW because it would also buff SCH (though they kinda did anyways).

Basically, from a design standpoint, it's so much of a headache that I don't think we're likely to see it again. It's kind of a shame it hasn't been set up in a way that lets them separate out jobs from classes more as the branching thing, to this day, seems to be a strong fantasy among a lot of players, but... it's what we've got, I guess.

tl;dr due to underlying design issues new jobs will probably be jobs only with no base class, like DRK/MCH/AST.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

really now?

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Well, this whole thread is pretty much wild speculation, so why not!

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Well, this whole thread is pretty much wild speculation, so why not!

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So much speculation in that quote now(from the interview)....do we go with "ranger" do we go with the colors? (Sam used to also wear red....) do we go by the elbst mount being used quite often?(tamer, bst?) i dont see samurai being yellow, maybe something like dancer? chemist wore yellow in ffv .... so many ways to interpret it

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

So much speculation in that quote now(from the interview)....do we go with "ranger" do we go with the colors? (Sam used to also wear red....) do we go by the elbst mount being used quite often?(tamer, bst?) i dont see samurai being yellow, maybe something like dancer? chemist wore yellow in ffv .... so many ways to interpret it

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It could likely have to do with their lines in their posing sequence.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yR6UkK6KIU

The yellow ranger could represent a Dancer.
The red one could be a Berserker.
For the black one I'd say Ninja, but that already exists so maybe Thief, Ranger, Beastmaster, Scout, or some other stealth/animal related class?

I haven't touched AST yet, and rarely get them as co healers in 8-man content so I don't know much about the job, but I do wonder sometimes if the imbalance I hear about them is due to it not really being compatible with the other two healers. WHM and SCH complement each other so well with their abilities, and each can take on solo healing duties in the content I have gone through thus far. Perhaps what AST needs to balance it is another healer that creates a near perfect tandem like WHM+SCH? AST+RDM or AST+DNC perhaps??

Just a thought I had.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I haven't touched AST yet, and rarely get them as co healers in 8-man content so I don't know much about the job, but I do wonder sometimes if the imbalance I hear about them is due to it not really being compatible with the other two healers. WHM and SCH complement each other so well with their abilities, and each can take on solo healing duties in the content I have gone through thus far. Perhaps what AST needs to balance it is another healer that creates a near perfect tandem like WHM+SCH? AST+RDM or AST+DNC perhaps??

Just a thought I had.

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Thats what i would do, tank to complement drk/pld , not one that pushes war/sch to the wayside. though some people think we need a contender for sch/war id personally let them be the jobs they are and come up with something that would balance the assymetrical(3rd) of either role

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

Thats what i would do, tank to complement drk/pld , not one that pushes war/sch to the wayside. though some people think we need a contender for sch/war id personally let them be the jobs they are and come up with something that would balance the assymetrical(3rd) of either role

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All that does is narrow the number of possibilities for design, because you're now designing around strict paradigms instead of trying to meet a much broader requirement. It's not a good direction to take things, and I'd rather see the tanks and healers brought in line with each other over creating specified slots for them in groups. If it means WAR and SCH have to be nerfed, it's still better than designing all healers to fit into either a WHM-esque or SCH-like mold.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

All that does is narrow the number of possibilities for design, because you're now designing around strict paradigms instead of trying to meet a much broader requirement. It's not a good direction to take things, and I'd rather see the tanks and healers brought in line with each other over creating specified slots for them in groups. If it means WAR and SCH have to be nerfed, it's still better than designing all healers to fit into either a WHM-esque or SCH-like mold.

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I need some examples cause i feel like a the end were talking about the very same thing

edit:yeah i really think were looking at the same outcome, just a different approach. I think.

no actually i feel like i stand by my point, war/sch nerfs do nothing. when you look at sch at its arr upbringing. a dps that had a total of 5(five) healer related skills, most must haves like leeches, to complete its kit as a "healer" while ast designed from the ground up as a "healer" still has no competing points? i blame whoever designed the class, and not scholars design, sch is grea, still, and it never even made to healer until level 30, yet we should bring it down. for what? even adding the heavensward skills, its still stripped down as hell, but all standards. why? cause its WELL DESIGNED. just like from now on, any tank they make, or healer needs to be designed well, in this fashion,. not "errr ooggg we found out dis mostly dps class made healer job is really good at its limited skillset and our...replace,emt white mage/ and or replacement scholar but not really job just cant take its place. lets nerf scholar even more than the fact its entire skillset is limited, and lets nerf warrior, because whoever designed it did it well. so we can keep making not good jobs that sorta kinda do their job, but not really that well, cause its new."

there are many ways of competition, sometimes instead of outdoing the other class/.job, you have to flat out design one that does something it cant, and way better than it ever could if it tried. Giving the entire community a chance to decide what shines from these jobs is what they want to trust in, not dumbing down some jobs that do shine in what they do that the other jobs in their role dont or cant. dumbing down war or sch isnt going to do anything but allow them to come up with more of the same, boring half/astrologian half/scholar jobs, that will never be able to compete because they just cant. even after having 30 levels of a proper healer role's worth of skills before even being a -job-

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

no actually i feel like i stand by my point, war/sch nerfs do nothing. when you look at sch at its arr upbringing. a dps that had a total of 5(five) healer related skills, most must haves like leeches, to complete its kit as a "healer" while ast designed from the ground up as a "healer" still has no competing points? i blame whoever designed the class, and not scholars design

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You're already barking up the wrong tree if you're blaming AST for anything. AST is only the symptom of a bigger problem. Part of which I feel SCH is responsible for causing.

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even adding the heavensward skills, its still stripped down as hell, but all standards. why? cause its WELL DESIGNED.

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As far as I know, the fairy for a slight nerf and Lustrate no longer ignores the Cleric Stance penalty. That's not "stripped down".

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lets nerf scholar even more than the fact its entire skillset is limited,

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A healer being very powerful even with a limited skillset is actually pretty damn alarming from a design perspective.

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and lets nerf warrior, because whoever designed it did it well.

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Actually, it's not well designed, because anyone half-competent would have told the balance team that switches between Defiance and Deliverance need an actual penalty in the form of wrath/abandon stacks to create that semblance of decision-making (instead of the "DPS DPS DPS DPS DPS" fixation we've seen since Heavensward's launch), and to not give one tank the ability to never run out of TP in addition to higher damage potential. That's how you create the shitshow we saw with Gordias Savage, but we can have that discussion over in the tank forums.

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Giving the entire community a chance to decide what shines from these jobs is what they want to trust in, not dumbing down some jobs that do shine in what they do that the other jobs in their role dont or cant. dumbing down war or sch isnt going to do anything but allow them to come up with more of the same, boring half/astrologian half/scholar jobs, that will never be able to compete because they just cant. even after having 30 levels of a proper healer role's worth of skills before even being a -job-

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Leveling the playing field means you're not pressured to make new jobs to mimic existing jobs. AST came out the way it did because the playing field was not leveled. The devs should have revised how SCH and WHM were designed before even going into the expansion, much less before AST moved from the planning stage to the design stage. Had they done this, AST would then be judged by its own merits rather than by how well it can copy WHM and SCH.

Also keep in mind that Yoshida has said they're working on balance across all jobs, not just SCH and WAR.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

You're already barking up the wrong tree if you're blaming AST for anything. AST is only the symptom of a bigger problem. Part of which I feel SCH is responsible for causing.

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SCH was here long before AST. Please don't blame SCH for AST issues. I am more inclined to believe that if AST couldn't be designed in a way that has it stand on its own two feet, it should have been left out.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

A healer being very powerful even with a limited skillset is actually pretty damn alarming from a design perspective.

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It's not limited. The fairy and unlimited MP pool makes up for what the SCH himself lacks.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Leveling the playing field means you're not pressured to make new jobs to mimic existing jobs. AST came out the way it did because the playing field was not leveled. The devs should have revised how SCH and WHM were designed before even going into the expansion, much less before AST moved from the planning stage to the design stage. Had they done this, AST would then be judged by its own merits rather than by how well it can copy WHM and SCH.

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Again, you don't fix what's already working and AST probably should have been left on the drawing board. Paying customers have demands though, and these demands put further constraints on time along with hastened decisions. Introducing new jobs is what rocks the boat, and that's where we are at, and they are about to bring in two more? It's crazy.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Also keep in mind that Yoshida has said they're working on balance across all jobs, not just SCH and WAR.

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Funny thing about balance: For one group of people, it's all cheers and shots. For another group of people, it's the start of a long depression. Which end to you think Yoshida's balance will have current SCH and WAR mains land on?

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Funny thing about balance: For one group of people, it's all cheers and shots. For another group of people, it's the start of a long depression. Which end to you think Yoshida's balance will have current SCH and WAR mains land on?

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Because people are worried about the mp management and dps of the Scholar, I suggest Fairy spells cost mana which is taken directly from Scholar mana.
One of the problem is Scholar will need to be afk to keep mana...or just to run without Fairy sometimes.

But I would prefer for further fights, to have more mecanics, more ennemies to force both healers to heal :)

fairy cooldowns becoming actual spells on the GCD? Are you sure this wouldnt be a buff to scholar?

No, the cooldowns will remain the same. Just this mana cost will be the only modification.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

All that does is narrow the number of possibilities for design, because you're now designing around strict paradigms instead of trying to meet a much broader requirement. It's not a good direction to take things, and I'd rather see the tanks and healers brought in line with each other over creating specified slots for them in groups. If it means WAR and SCH have to be nerfed, it's still better than designing all healers to fit into either a WHM-esque or SCH-like mold.

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You are designing around strict paradigms either way.

Either you are trying to shoehorn soon to be 4 healers into 2 slots or 2 main healers and 2 off healers into 2 different slots.

The problem is that as with MMOs the best will be used. It's a LOT harder to design and balance 4 different classes to be balanced and equal against each other to fill 2 slots than 2 classes against each other to fill one slot.

If 4 healers are trying to be exactly balanced against each other equally I can almost guarantee that at least one of them will either be underwhelming and not want to be used or overwhelming where that one is always used, and the more and more classes you add to this pool the harder and more obvious this will start to become. Especially when we start hitting 5 and 6, there's no way that every healer is going to be viable if they are all balanced against each other, unless you make some content good for one healer and some other content good for another healer, but in general that feels pretty crappy anyway.

The same thing applies to the main and off healer parading as well, but this way you cut the number of classes competing against each other in half. Rather than Whm vs Sch vs Ast vs New, it's a lot easier to balance Whm vs Ast, and then Sch vs New. The same problem will still eventually show up, but it should take at least twice as long.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

SCH was here long before AST. Please don't blame SCH for AST issues. I am more inclined to believe that if AST couldn't be designed in a way that has it stand on its own two feet, it should have been left out.

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The only reason AST could not be designed to stand on its own two feet was because the devs wanted to stick to the two-healer meta they created for ARR. Problem is that doesn't work because your healer slots are very specific, which means any of the other approaches to healing (HoTs, transfusions, damage converted to heals, smart heals, etc) compete only with WHM and not with SCH. Thus you can't design a healer around any of the available approaches because instead of encouraging all sorts of combos, you end up with SCH+<insert other healer>.

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Again, you don't fix what's already working and AST probably should have been left on the drawing board. Paying customers have demands though, and these demands put further constraints on time along with hastened decisions. Introducing new jobs is what rocks the boat, and that's where we are at, and they are about to bring in two more? It's crazy.

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Limiting the game to only two healers is crazier. Growth comes from variety, and this game can always use more of it when it comes to job classes.

If the design doesn't work with new additions to the healer roster, you change the design to make additions possible. This isn't a single-player game that has a finite development cycle, but an MMO that by nature continuously grows and adds things, and the design has to reflect and support those principles.

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Funny thing about balance: For one group of people, it's all cheers and shots. For another group of people, it's the start of a long depression. Which end to you think Yoshida's balance will have current SCH and WAR mains land on?

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Believe me when I say I sympathize with those who feel concern. That said, to leave problem jobs alone for the sake of sparing the feelings of certain people is irresponsible when the repercussions are far-reaching. And when a job is designed in such a way that the only way additions can hope to compete is to copy from it, it's a serious problem.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Problem is that doesn't work because your healer slots are very specific, which means any of the other approaches to healing (HoTs, transfusions, damage converted to heals, smart heals, etc) compete only with WHM and not with SCH. Thus you can't design a healer around any of the available approaches because instead of encouraging all sorts of combos, you end up with SCH+<insert other healer>.

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(Correct me if I'm wrong) I assume SCHs roll is DPS while heals are going off, mixed with shields for tank/party busters, correct? Then the part highlighted I feel isnt completely accurate. In the example of HoTs, simply applying HoTs in place of a fairy alone can be quite similar, even more so if off the GCD. Ticking away at an equal amount, while you keep the DPS up. Next would be dmg mitigations, which plenty can be made since SCH only has 2 forms atm. As for the other examples you gave, I feel they are not quite detailed enough for me to give examples of how to make them fit, as I don't want to just assume what you mean by them.

So the problem isnt with sch being good at mitigation, but with whm with 3 stacking regens, instant full health spell, instant 2.0 lustratex2 potency? Which is why over time of 3.0 AST gets pushed more of a WHM contender than dealing with Noct stance? I'm curious, why SCH seems to be the one everyone blames because its good at its niche, when other ideas are blown out the water cause the other choice was good at many more things, to the extent they cant create another original healer without making it more and more like whm... .

The fairy costing nothing, isnt true, its got a cast timer, it doesnt over heal, its got simple ai. When once i had to explain simply to a level 40ish whm who mained sch for a loooong time, how 'Regen' is basically the whm fairy, and divine seal made it stronger, so youd want that on the tank after establishing hate properly, it made sense to her, and she got good with whm, terribly good

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

So the problem isnt with sch being good at mitigation, but with whm. over time of 3.0 AST gets pushed to be more of a WHM contender than dealing with Noct stance.

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SCHs weakness is its AoE healing, lack of CC, and lack of AoE burst. (and technically single target burst to an extent)
But that's honestly fine in 99% of content.

So it might be mimicking WHM more, but it originally didnt fulfill the role of healer as well as either WHM or SCH.

SCH can pretty much main heal most content as good as a WHM, as long as ppl dont get hit by AoEs they can dodge. (Some content has unavoidable dmg) AND it has mitigation.
So the bare minimum is to match WHM, not so much SCH, in making it functional. (It was functional, but it was much harder, and people did clear Alex Savage with AST before they got buffed.)

I do agree it should have been more so buffed in its specialty, which is the cards/support (it technically did get a buff, but that wasnt the focus)

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

SCHs weakness is its AoE healing, lack of CC, and lack of AoE burst. (and technically single target burst to an extent)
SCH can pretty much main heal most content as good as a WHM, as long as ppl dont get hit by AoEs they can dodge. (Some content has unavoidable dmg) AND it has mitigation.
So the bare minimum is to match WHM, not so much SCH, in making it functional. (It was functional, but it was much harder, and people did clear Alex Savage with AST before they got buffed.)

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youre absolutely right, wheras the other option can stack group heal like a champ, bless you for pointing out the weaknesses too, it isnt as OP to me as people think imo, its just very player skill based., and thanks for bringing up the holes which work against it, cause i really couldnt find the words to do so myself. this late at night

had to snip quote, sorry

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

So the problem isnt with sch being good at mitigation, but with whm with 3 stacking regens, instant full health spell, instant 2.0 lustratex2 potency? Which is why over time of 3.0 AST gets pushed more of a WHM contender than dealing with Noct stance? -snip-

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

SCHs weakness is its AoE healing -snip-

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The problem goes a little bit deeper. Noct stance got buffed too, but here's the core issue: AST is a white mage reskin. Imagine White Mage, but where Regen gives a shield instead of a HoT, and Medica II also gives a shield instead of HoT.

Does that sound like something that would replace SCH?

Because that's what AST noct stance is. SCH is so much more than a single target shield and an AoE shield.

Some other misc notes: HW improved SCH's AoE healing quite a bit. While it might not contend with WHM in something like T12, I don't know of any HW content where SCH can't AoE heal sufficiently (if they can be bothered to turn cleric off).

And, SCH fairy heals are free. It has a (re)cast time, but those don't cost the SCH a GCD like Regen costs a WHM a GCD. There's even a divine seal equivalent: Rouse. Let me know when embrace costs 600 MP per 7 'ticks', then I'll agree fairy heals have a cost.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

The problem goes a little bit deeper. Noct stance got buffed too, but here's the core issue: AST is a white mage reskin. Imagine White Mage, but where Regen gives a shield instead of a HoT, and Medica II also gives a shield instead of HoT.

Does that sound like something that would replace SCH?

Because that's what AST noct stance is. SCH is so much more than a single target shield and an AoE shield.

Some other misc notes: HW improved SCH's AoE healing quite a bit. While it might not contend with WHM in something like T12, I don't know of any HW content where SCH can't AoE heal sufficiently (if they can be bothered to turn cleric off).

And, SCH fairy heals are free. It has a (re)cast time, but those don't cost the SCH a GCD like Regen costs a WHM a GCD. There's even a divine seal equivalent: Rouse. Let me know when embrace costs 600 MP per 7 'ticks', then I'll agree fairy heals have a cost.

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yeah hold on

ok so sch has no physik 2, whm does, the point of supplemental healing from the fairy was to give the sch an equivalent of the edge of having no upper tier potency spell, to bridge the gap. again this is 2.x this is before hw. The "new" skills for sch sort of do this, you are correct, but so do the new whm skills give them things like lustrate(in a sense) and sure rouse is like a half a divine seal for just the fairy, eos has a party wide divine seal as well, on a cooldown, as well as scholars only regen ability locked behind just eos. I think youre on to something quite crucial to what ive been saying about HW but the design for the most part for the new job abilities, for both, is to make them more like the other, to me. Maybe im the only one that sees this, maybe im crazy but again, it isnt our decision it was the dev teams to do so. Also Dissipation. Scholars now can get big potency by losing the fairy for an entire minute, then using as much mana as casting a res off resummon in, for what a 20 sec buff when the summon lockout is a minute? Like what? Im not gonna comment, i know this skill gets use, but its just not something id do, just to give it faux whm burst personally from a design pov.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

I think youre on to something quite crucial to what ive been saying about HW but the design for the most part for the new job abilities, for both, is to make them more like the other, to me. Maybe im the only one that sees this, maybe im crazy but again, it isnt our decision it was the dev teams to do so.

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No you're exactly correct... this was discussed back when the info first came out, but months before we actually had HW. It was... lightly controversial, but pretty obvious they were making WHM and SCH less of a complement and more independent of each other, in preparation for a new healer. (We didn't know it would be so embarrassingly parallel to WHM, though).

Although we did know of dissipation... We also didn't know they were going to nerf the fairy so brutally. I think it's pretty clear the dev team isn't/wasn't happy with the advantages of having an extra entity that can independently heal... just as they didn't like lustrate in cleric stance. (Well... from how they handle SMN, I don't think SE really likes the pet part of pet jobs in general).

All that said, SCH still has quite the different toolkit. I guess... are you saying that in 4.0, you think they'll bring them even closer together?

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

(Correct me if I'm wrong) I assume SCHs roll is DPS while heals are going off, mixed with shields for tank/party busters, correct? Then the part highlighted I feel isnt completely accurate. In the example of HoTs, simply applying HoTs in place of a fairy alone can be quite similar, even more so if off the GCD. Ticking away at an equal amount, while you keep the DPS up. Next would be dmg mitigations, which plenty can be made since SCH only has 2 forms atm. As for the other examples you gave, I feel they are not quite detailed enough for me to give examples of how to make them fit, as I don't want to just assume what you mean by them.

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From my own experience playing the job and looking at how it's used, the shields are pretty damn powerful at mitigating mechanics. Someone in my Green Mage thread brought up the fact that some boss fights are tuned to deal a ton of damage because they take SCH shields in mind. I can also point to the comic delineating the power of crit Adlos + Deployment Tactics. That and the fact that I've seen topics lead to a discussion of creating another barrier healer to compete with SCH instead of letting said new healer be their own thing. All these point to the same problem, with the same name always popping up.

This said, what I was talking about was healers designed around different styles of healing. Unsurprisingly, I often mention examples seen in WoW or SWTOR, which showed a level of variety without one particular healer truly getting a guaranteed spot for groups. Merc Bounty Hunters in SWTOR used to combine attacks with healing abilities with a stack mechanic for certain skills. WoW has burst/single target healers via holy paladins, AoE/smart healers with resto shaman, HoT healers with resto druids and so on. Each has their own approach to healing while having different playstyles and priorities along with some (understandable) overlaps.

AST could have followed this line of thinking to differentiate itself from WHM and SCH, but because the devs realized that they were stuck with a two-healer meta based around specific heals/utility, it ended up as it currently is.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Each has their own approach to healing while having different playstyles and priorities along with some (understandable) overlaps.

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Simply from the perspective of designing content it's a lot easier if they have some base line expectation of what each role is able to bring to each fight. Variety is nice and all, but if you are making classes diverse simply for the sake of diversity and not keeping in mind how content is designed certain classes just become worthless for certain types of content.

Boss with a ton of tank busters and spike damage? Well, that DoT healer is useless.
Boss mainly focus on the tank so long as people can dodge effectively? Well that AoE healer is not the best.
The Vault? Hope you aren't that single target healer.

Designing different types of healers and expecting any combination of them to be able to clear the hardest content simply isn't going to work unless you essentially make all healers nearly the same with different glowy effects.

You are right that some attacks do take in mind that Scholar has shields, but that's the point, they design content based on what each role brings to the table, but rather than giving every healer like White Mage those shields I think it would be better if the main healer and off healer roles are divided up and jobs are created to fill either of the roles. The next healer then can be an offhealer like Scholar that's job is to mitigate big hits, and it doesn't have to be done with shields either. Anything that increases the effective HP pool in theory should work and there are a number of ways to do that. Increasing the tanks damage reduction or lowering the monster's damage both also could work in substitute of damage shields. I mean heck, you could even do weird things like a buff that reduced the monster's damage by 50% on the tank, but then the tank gets an unremovable DoT that inflicts the remaining 50% over time.

There are plenty of ways to add diversity, but they have to be designed with roles in mind, but trying to design it so that every healer can fill every role will likely end up as a disaster as either all healers essentially become the same, or certain healers aren't used or only one or 2 healers are used because they are just better than the other ones.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Although we did know of dissipation... We also didn't know they were going to nerf the fairy so brutally. I think it's pretty clear the dev team isn't/wasn't happy with the advantages of having an extra entity that can independently heal... just as they didn't like lustrate in cleric stance. (Well... from how they handle SMN, I don't think SE really likes the pet part of pet jobs in general).

All that said, SCH still has quite the different toolkit. I guess... are you saying that in 4.0, you think they'll bring them even closer together?

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Hard to tell, yoshi did mention he wanted jobs to shine in a more unique manner instead of trying to make them all have the same timers and such, which would lead to them trying to keep scholars identity, but then they do mention not being pleased about sch and war being good, which i think worries us the most that. Seemingly, a big part of the argument is the fairies free heals that cost no mp, they could do things to restrict the uptime of the fairy, or put a darkside effect while its out, or they could strengthen the refresh abilities of whm and ast to bring them on a more level playing field.

EDIT: After thinking about your question, I think yes, they will try bring scholar more to that level,
Dissipation, I think was added intentionally, as an experiment. I can easilly see them marginalizing the use of fairies, at the sacrifice of healing magic potencies for the sch, while when dropping the fairy the potencies will go back up. Add in some nasty tank buster damage, or whatever they will to make sch pressured to drop the fairy for burst on demand, something like this. I have crazier ideas depending on how much of a criminal they believe the fairy is, i just hope they dont get implemented.

sorry for the delay in response had to go to work.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

The only reason AST could not be designed to stand on its own two feet was because the devs wanted to stick to the two-healer meta they created for ARR. Problem is that doesn't work because your healer slots are very specific, which means any of the other approaches to healing (HoTs, transfusions, damage converted to heals, smart heals, etc) compete only with WHM and not with SCH. Thus you can't design a healer around any of the available approaches because instead of encouraging all sorts of combos, you end up with SCH+<insert other healer>.

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If they wanted to keep the two healer meta, it is likely because it was balanced and introducing another healer would be difficult. I believe the devs had the best intentions with having different combinations of healers. It just didn't work out that way. Again, don't blame SCH for this. Or blame both SCH and WHM.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Limiting the game to only two healers is crazier. Growth comes from variety, and this game can always use more of it when it comes to job classes.

If the design doesn't work with new additions to the healer roster, you change the design to make additions possible. This isn't a single-player game that has a finite development cycle, but an MMO that by nature continuously grows and adds things, and the design has to reflect and support those principles.

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Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying they should never add new jobs, and I am definitely not saying the game should remain in it's current state and never adapt. But there are other principles at play than just growth and adaptation. There is also a foundation from which the game and all the jobs were built that needs to be respected. It really shouldn't be about change, but additions. The only time something needs to change, is when a design is not working. I think we agree for the most part here. I am only bringing to the light that when a tandem like WHM/SCH works as well as it does, it is EXTREMELY difficult to make an addition without changing a design that is already working. And perhaps maybe if we waited until 4.0 for AST, we wouldn't need another healer to create a combination for the job that works.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Believe me when I say I sympathize with those who feel concern. That said, to leave problem jobs alone for the sake of sparing the feelings of certain people is irresponsible when the repercussions are far-reaching. And when a job is designed in such a way that the only way additions can hope to compete is to copy from it, it's a serious problem.

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I am on the side that believes everyone's bests interests are taken into consideration. This is the responsible way to approach things. I think where we disagree is pointing the finger at SCH. The problem as I see it is adding AST was like bringing home a new cat when two already live there.

Honestly they made AST a pseudo WHM and SCH in its original design, but meant to be slightly lesser, at the cost of its support options(cards)

But when they buffed AST, they had to pick which to buff. Its off healer or Main healer options.
Otherwise it would be unfair to have 1 job that can be both.

So the obvious choice was to make it more like WHM as a main healer, than like SCH as an off healer.
Maybe the next healer will work/function more like an off healer, and it wouldnt make SCH seem so strong.
(Along with content that requires off healers in savage, rather than being ok with 2 main healers)

but would AST really have been so overpowered with the 3.0 base potencies and free changing(lets just say war defiance like cd on diurnal/noct stances in combat? I mean they said something like it being op, but i still wonder.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

If they wanted to keep the two healer meta, it is likely because it was balanced and introducing another healer would be difficult. I believe the devs had the best intentions with having different combinations of healers. It just didn't work out that way.

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Designing the entirety of healing around two options only works when you have two healers in the roster. That approach becomes outdated the moment you need to make additions to the roster, and would thus need adjustments. Specially when one of the healers becomes a mainstay in raid groups on top of fights being balanced around mitigation provided by that healer. The devs literally left no "outs" for themselves.

It'd be a different story if SCH had been more about healing output with shields being closer to cooldowns (this would mean Eos would need abilities that consumed Aetherflow stacks or the SCH getting the ability to consume Aetherflow stacks to empower the fairy) or if it had been built around a different healing style than the current rendition. You'd look at WHM and SCH and not even contemplate one getting a guaranteed group spot. And without an invaluable source of mitigation that can be constantly reapplied becoming mandatory, you are also free to design AST to have its own style of healing instead of forcing it to copy WHM and SCH.

Non-sequitur:

If we want to keep the Nocturnal/Diurnal thing, I'd suggest that AST naturally cycle between both sects through spell use, with utility being affected by what sect you are in. Maybe an ability or two that switches your sect.

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But there are other principles at play than just growth and adaptation. There is also a foundation from which the game and all the jobs were built that needs to be respected.

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Taking this point into account, I could argue Heavensward has brought forth issues in the foundation for most jobs, seeing that additions feel convoluted (see: most abilities and systems given to melee DPS) or have to be based on things that we already have (see: DRK, AST).

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And perhaps maybe if we waited until 4.0 for AST, we wouldn't need another healer to create a combination for the job that works.

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This wouldn't make much of a difference, since all you're doing is putting off dealing with the problem until later.

Point is, neither of you are wrong, in 2.x scholar was being the awesome sch it is today and they knew this. Nothings new, it got some more aoe burst and things to fit it more outside of its weaknesses, and whm too got a lot more instant cast heals ans scholar=like abilities like tetra, and nothings changed, at al, and yes those two do their healing specs quite well, enter AST, which seems like they forgot what they were going up against for a contender, but youre right. Esp about not only ast, but drk as well. We cant exactly pinpoint where they seem to have went wrong, but they had the data and knew, esp about sch early enough along, so early in fact that we seen yoshi change his opinon about dual jobs for every class maybe a major patch or two, during 2.x cycle that it wa s a bad idea they wont be redoing. And its very true those two did perfectly well as a pair yet we have to have raid teams of2 tanks 4dps 2 healers, adding a third tank and a third healer really shakes the tree so I want to be a bit real here and ask what would you have done for a third healer? Kind of sick of debating where they went wrong, arent you all?

A tank is needed to compete with WAR and a healer is needed to compete with SCH (I'm still waiting for my Dancer). What I have take from Yoshida's comments about SCH and WAR though is that come next expansion while everyone will get new abilities SCH and WAR will get less of an upgrade to bring everyone else up to their level.
They really did create a balancing mess with that fairy though I will admit even as a SCH main.