BRD/MCH in 4.0

I rarely see any MNK players at all...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

You know how people state MNK is the hardest melee DPS class? Well...how many bad MNK players do you see usually?

---

There are also like a ton of skills and positionals for it too, which is a bit much when you also have to worry about support, and watching out for adds. The complexity is pretty much from it's boated skill-set that's pretty much all useful, and consistent and natural learn and play, which SE literally just glossed over because the way bard's support everyone run's almost totally counter to what minuet incentivizes players to do. It's totally unnecessary to sing now, because our DPS rotation is way more important and takes full priority in content for me right now. And, most people will have a hard time with it, and just play as DPS-bards and ignore their support skills.


Ok, this is totally a different genre, but Monster Hunter's great sword completely changed both how players looked at it and how skillfully they played in its second generation. And, all they did was add a charge mechanic that was both accessible and easy to learn and master for players. It's just really, really slow. It's a mechanic that I would really like to see tested out on black mages. It sounds way too interesting.

Bad players have to play too, and they end up in the easier jobs. I've seen sooo many bards that don't understand how vital straight shot is, use it after dots are up, or only if straighter shot procs. Bard blm and drg draw the baddies. Drg and blm because they have high pot moves that make players think they are doing well, bard because up until WM there's no cast bar and dmg/agro is "normal for support class"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Velhart

This pretty much. Besides, I am still very mobile on MCH with GB on. It really is not a big deal dealing with cast times. If you actually get good at BRD or MCH, then your mobility is just fine. Sure you are not jumping all over the place, but you can still freely move for the most part if you actually know how to weave your rotation with your movement.

If downvotes were a thing, I would probably get a lot of them for saying this, but I actually prefer GB. I hate the aesthetic of it, but I do like the concept. Perhaps it is because it feels like Marksmanship Hunter in WoW, but I like weaving my casts/rotation.

---

I second this, movement is not an issue.

The cast times are miniscule, so small infact you get get one off and still have time to move out of AoE's.. Stutterstepping is incredibly easy to do on them.. The classes are still pretty mobile I just don't have to see BRD's running in cricles, spamming jump and paying little attention in my groups anymore. It's a change I can't say I mind.

I'm personally at a point where the loss of them when synced down to lower levels irritates me xD

One change i would like is for the machinist turrets to follow me like summoner pets maybe even a pet cross bar

How about making WM only affect certain skill?

So if you turn on WM you still have autoattack (or not), you can move around, most skill still instant but, certain skill like empyreal arrow, sidewinder, etc will deal the "extra damage buff" and have cast time.

WM "empyreal arrow, sidewinder arrow and bloodletter now deal xx% increase damage and have 2 second cast time" for example

Brd got nerfs because, truth be told, it was easy mode. Even with lower dps on paper, brd still outperformed the Lions share of melee dps simply due to being able to constantly stay on target regardless of range. Sad but true, thus made brd the "easiest" dps class by a good margin. The addition of WM now forces the player to play by the rules that the other jobs are constrained by. In exchange, brd gets a lot more damage on their skills.

The alternative; bringing back the fully mobile brd, would need to come with an equal cost, which likely would be in the form of reduced dmg overall. This kills the solo play of the job however. If anything should be done, imo, a skill should be added to mch and brd that briefly allows them to instant cast all skills for a short period of time. Anything more than that and we run the risk of going to the old 2.0 days of no melee besides the tank.

Probably an unpopular opinion but I'm fine with WM as is and am sad when I get level synced and don't have it. So would be sad to lose it and the casting. So hoping we still keep WM but get more stuff added.

I'd like to see something like:
1 new WM only skill
1 new skill
2 songs(I'd like a haste song and a low aoe heal song myself(think whispering dawn))
and just another of the above ones.

Welp,

I never take my BRD to anything except lev.50 and lower since WM business because I never made the adjustment. My dps at lev.60 is terribad. Ironically I do not have the same issues with MCH.

BUT,

I started playing WOW again after dropping it for 5 years. The way things are going I am probably going back to MM Hunter full time soon. I have two jobs left to lev to 60 and after that I am probably done with FFXIV.

Fun fact I started trying different Jobs after they "butchered" BRD. I have not found any that I liked as much and I have tried. See here http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...acter/8781266/ for the Jobs I have completed.

I think we are going to get the option to drop our support class and be a pure DPS bard= Ranger mch= musketeer but I don't see them removing GB or WM

I definitely think we'll see at least one or two abilities to make life easier whilst The Wanderer's Minuet is up (like a cd that makes the next ability instant cast or something). Machinist already has some abilities like this so I have no idea what they'll get (maybe more debuff-type utility to mirror Bard's buff-type utility?).
Personally, all I want from 4.0 Bard is new songs. Hell, I'd be happy if all 5 new abilities are songs (though most would probably foam at the mouth from sheer rage).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vifrague

I think we are going to get the option to drop our support class and be a pure DPS bard= Ranger mch= musketeer but I don't see them removing GB or WM

---

Unfortunately for all the Rangers / Musketeers out there this can't and won't ever happen because it'd require them to dismantle both jobs in their entirety and rework them, except with two new jobs added to the mix. So we'd essentially have 4 new jobs, and since they've already said they struggled to create 3 new ones for an expansion, I doubt they'll do anything like this with existing jobs (hence why SMN/SCH will likely remain fused for the entirety of the game's life, despite the devs acknowledging that job-branching in such a way just doesn't work).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Quor

Brd got nerfs because, truth be told, it was easy mode. Even with lower dps on paper, brd still outperformed the Lions share of melee dps simply due to being able to constantly stay on target regardless of range. Sad but true, thus made brd the "easiest" dps class by a good margin. The addition of WM now forces the player to play by the rules that the other jobs are constrained by. In exchange, brd gets a lot more damage on their skills.

The alternative; bringing back the fully mobile brd, would need to come with an equal cost, which likely would be in the form of reduced dmg overall. This kills the solo play of the job however. If anything should be done, imo, a skill should be added to mch and brd that briefly allows them to instant cast all skills for a short period of time. Anything more than that and we run the risk of going to the old 2.0 days of no melee besides the tank.

---

This alternative already exists. It's called not using WM. It's perfectly viable outside of savage content. Just be prepared to face the judging stares of your non-FC party members for the extra minute or two that your dungeons may take. Dropping WM doesn't make your dps terribad unless it was very bad to begin with.

Any more skills gated behind WM will make me sad.

Imo I think BRD should be able to cast whilst moving whilst reducing the current damage output. Buff the support songs and add a haste song for the melee classes out there to cover the lack of BRD dps.
I mained BRD in 2.x and I liked the idea that they should be more of a support/dps class than full on dps (I know it wasn't utilized as a support most of the time in 2.x)

Sadly, i've gotten used to the cast times. It would be SO MUCH BETTER if we could have our mobility back though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vifrague

I think we are going to get the option to drop our support class and be a pure DPS bard= Ranger mch= musketeer but I don't see them removing GB or WM

---

Um, I'm pretty sure that's what they wanted to do with WM...

Bard is obviously the 'forgotten' step child class. We will never get an expansion that is based off us, like Heavensward was for dragoons, and the next will be for monks. And we'll always get the afterthoughts (OH damn we forgot bard! lets just make them into a caster to make them happy!) when it comes to new skills. I seriously doubt anything got really tested last time around... so why expect the next to be better?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mb52139

Bard is obviously the 'forgotten' step child class. We will never get an expansion that is based off us...we'll always get the afterthoughts (OH damn we forgot bard! lets just make them into a caster to make them happy!) when it comes to new skills.

---

Bruh.

The second expansion literally got announced a week ago and you immediately assume that Bard is now a "forgotten" Job. You're assuming that no expansion representation automatically means it will be a bad Job with bad skills because you hate not being able to move freely while losing zero DPS. You're also ignoring the fact that EVERY Job that's not Dragoon or Monk currently has no Expansion representation by trying to use your faulty logic to say Bard will always be the worst Job.

"What's that? Monk is now the face of 4.0? Well I guess Bard is complete shit now since it will never be famous. What do you mean Paladin, Warrior, Ninja, White Mage, Black Mage, Scholar, and Summoner aren't the face of an expansion either? STOP TRYING TO TELL ME THAT I'M OVERREACTING." -You.

Could you at least pretend to actually have a point?

You are reading way to far into the post. ;)

Derplander was archer in 1.0, so no I don't think he will be back to archer/bard anytime in the future.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dzian

If they got rid of the bow mage gameplay of it I might actually start playing bard again.

Seen a few suggestions for bed that scrap minuet such as giving a stacking buff that builds the more you stay still. And falls off the more you move. Taking 2 or 3 steps to dodgensure an aoe for example might only lose 1 stack. Taking more than that would lose more stacks.

They do need to scrap the bow mage element though. Turn the class back into an archer and not a wannabe mage

---

^This

Bard needs a redesign in 4.0 to restore it to the class that so many people loved but, unfortunately, were forced to walk away from in 3.0.

They made bard a "bow mage" because they could do 99% of movement-based mechanics without losing DPS up-time on the boss, making them valuable in fights that were movement heavy (good examples at the time would be T11 and T13 if you had Earthshakers). And with the recent changes to Auto Attacks, removing the cast times would make BRD even lazier than they were back in 2.x. Besides, BRD gets the best kind of cast bar. You get a short enough cast that you can still use buffs or move a bit without clipping your GCD, I'd kill for that as a BLM.

Also did you really have to necro this thread?

Frankly, if people are turning away from BRD because they can't adapt, I'm more than okay with it. There are enough awful BRDs at 60 as is.

I just want Song like FR can be active while moving because technically you just sing while playing with your harp like instrument right? your char can shoot 2 arrow bullseye while in mid air 360 no scope jump and can shoot hundreds of arrow all while doing awesome backflip

But cant active a song while moving? Lol

My biggest dream for MCH in 4.0 is to further push it into utility beyond the standard Mana-Battery that lands us with the label, so I'd love a 2-3 min Heal shot for maybe 25% of the targets max HP. I feel it could make for some pretty clutch saves when healers are struggling with group damage while a tank is possibly teetering on 5-10% hp. I feel the CD is high enough that we can't really be abused as a dedicated healer in easy content, but the heal is also low enough that it's not just a throwaway benediction.

I think BRD could use some QoL things, just in terms of RoB. Maybe make Bloodletter NOT proc a second time when it's already reset? Because when you hit the button and it decides to Proc a second time from RoB you aren't able to input the action because it's resetting, and while it's resetting if you input the action it will queue it instead of allowing you to queue something else. It gets a little annoying from time to time when you get Double Bloodletter procs(albeit it does feel nice to know you are getting more Bloodletters in).

As for 4.0, I want BRD to see some more utility in the form of song. We've already had the Wanderer's Minuet, but I would like to see a Song that reduces the enemy's Physical Resistance by like 5%, given that MCH already has Hypercharge that acts similar to Trick Attack from Ninja and we already have Foes to reduce Magic Resistance by 10%.

Hm, I think if they changed widevolley into a CD that turned normal actions into cone aoes with a short OGCD or as a stance: that would solve most of the class' DPS issues.

I would like to see bard get a song that rivals mch melee hypercharge buff. Possibly rework Swiftsong to increase skill/spell speed. I'm not asking for an exact copy of mch buff, just something to rival it.

Also, WM should have always been a stacking damage buff, each stack granted for a duration of time standing still. Once you move, the stack falls off. Rinse and repeat.

SQ totally ruined bard for so many in 3.0 - many abandoning the job (or game entirely) like me. If anything, Bard needs to be returned to the way it was before 3.0. WM is the reason why we have so many bad bards at level 60. If this one thing is changed I am positive we will see a huge increase of ppl returning to play bard.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SugarBunz

SQ totally ruined bard for so many in 3.0 - many abandoning the job (or game entirely) like me. If anything, Bard needs to be returned to the way it was before 3.0. WM is the reason why we have so many bad bards at level 60. If this one thing is changed I am positive we will see a huge increase of ppl returning to play bard.

---

People were bad at BRD before WM existed, so that's not an excuse. And besides, if you read my earlier post (#61), BRD would be even LAZIER then its 2.x version if cast times were removed due to auto-attacks now working without needing to face the enemy. And the type of Cast times that BRD get are the best kind there is. You get to use buffs AND be able to move for a short bit without losing out on DPS.

If you don't want your Cast time that much then let the Black Mages have it. We'd kill for movement without losing out on damage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by magnanimousCynic

People were bad at BRD before WM existed, so that's not an excuse. And besides, if you read my earlier post (#61), BRD would be even LAZIER then its 2.x version if cast times were removed due to auto-attacks now working without needing to face the enemy. And the type of Cast times that BRD get are the best kind there is. You get to use buffs AND be able to move for a short bit without losing out on DPS.

---

Are bad players still not allowed to enjoy the game aswell lol? We chose bard because we didn't want to be a mage. I was main BLM to level 50 and changed class to bard because I was having a difficult time with dodging and casting due to my shitty internet connection ( titan extreme ) . I found bard was a way I could play and still have fun .... I know a lot of bard mains agree they would like to see bard return to the way it was.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SugarBunz

Are bad players still not allowed to enjoy the game aswell lol?

---

Where did I say bad people can't enjoy the game? I said that there were bad Bards before WM came out. Don't fill my mouth with words.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SugarBunz

We chose bard because we didn't want to be a mage.

---

If you didn't want to be a mage then you could've chosen a Melee DPS. And who's this "We" that you're speaking for?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SugarBunz

I found bard was a way I could play and still have fun .... I know a lot of bard mains agree they would like to see bard return to the way it was.

---

I assume the "way it was" that you're talking about is the free movement all the time. If you need to keep moving as a Bard, then you're moving too much. Period.

And besides, if you DO need to move for a mechanic, you can either use Feint or just turn briefly off WM if you need to move for two GCDs or longer.

well I am not getting into a battle with your over points that I have brought up that MANY have also brought up :D I just stating many (bard mains) want it returned and I hope SQ is taking this into serious consideration. YOU however obviously came here with your panties in a bunch looking for a fight, so our convo ends here :D

I say let's give the bards what they want. Let's take away WM and let them run around like an idiot again bouncing and spinning during boss fights. Now since they they can stay in perpetual motion let's also knock their dps down a good notch since they can now derp mechanics again.

Bard was OP in the beginning of ARR then took a serious nerf and was pretty useless and only brought along to float the BLM's damage. For balance to have the old bard back means it will have to go back to being bottom of the food chain. Only there to prop up other classes. The ability to avoid mechanics while having constant dps needs a serious drawback based on what the other classes have to do to achieve the necessary levels of dps.

SugarBunz you need to realize that WM only provides the restraint to put BRD's DPS back in line with other DPS. Sure, it's there to help others, but in general BRD's overall DPS is based on your skill to play a semi-mobile caster. If you want to go that far, play SMN for practice. It's the most mobile out of all casters, and BRD having cast times was to reduce their freedom of movement and DPS without WM in Heavensward so that BRD wasn't an overpowered piece of crap that could be a possible DPS Powerhouse.

Melee have to sacrifice their DPS to avoid mechanics and AoEs at times, especially when an AoE envelops the entire Melee Range of the boss. BRD in ARR had no issue doing such. I do not want ARR BRD to return since WM actually is very fun to play and it brings the same challenge as HW did.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feidam

I say let's give the bards what they want. Let's take away WM and let them run around like an idiot again bouncing and spinning during boss fights. Now since they they can stay in perpetual motion let's also knock their dps down a good notch since they can now derp mechanics again.

---

You are attributing idiocy to a playstyle that is fun to some people. Can you explain your position? My position that moving is fun is because it brings something more to do in the slow feeling combat.

Yes, more mobility means less damage but I was under the impression that bard/mch were still the bottom damage as support jobs despite getting cast times. If not, can you name a job that typically does lower damage and can you also explain why bards and machinists are not being stacked in raids?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feidam

Bard was OP in the beginning of ARR then took a serious nerf and was pretty useless and only brought along to float the BLM's damage. For balance to have the old bard back means it will have to go back to being bottom of the food chain. Only there to prop up other classes. The ability to avoid mechanics while having constant dps needs a serious drawback based on what the other classes have to do to achieve the necessary levels of dps.

---

The nerf was what brought them in line with others considering their mobility. I have no issue with doing less damage if I'm allowed to continue doing damage while dodging. Stopping what you were doing and concentrating on only one thing at a time is not fun to me, but continuing what you were doing whilst simultaneously reacting to a threat is what's fun to me. Melee get interrupted, casters get interrupted and now ranged get interrupted too. On top of this the oGCD usage is cumbersome especially with some lag and bard has nothing to alleviate it like machinist does.

You contradict yourself in the bolded part. Either bard was useless or it had a secured place in raid teams. Which was it? Low damage doesn't mean useless if they can support others enough and perhaps handle some mechanics that other jobs don't want to. You also seem to imply in your tone that "propping up" other classes is somehow unfavorable to doing more dps. Some people would happily trade more dps for more support. Different preferences are why we (used to) have job options.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by magnanimousCynic

If you didn't want to be a mage then you could've chosen a Melee DPS.

---

So, we should just have no diversity whatsoever? Seriously, one of the bigger complaints since the launch of 3.0 has been the almost total homogenization of jobs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by magnanimousCynic

I assume the "way it was" that you're talking about is the free movement all the time. If you need to keep moving as a Bard, then you're moving too much. Period.

And besides, if you DO need to move for a mechanic, you can either use Feint or just turn briefly off WM if you need to move for two GCDs or longer.

---

Like, with Talurd and Titan EX. But, it's not like most of the main story content since 3.0 has been actually difficult or varied in terms of mechanics and stuff as opposed to the increased lengths of job rotations and stance dancing in the middle of everything being almost all of the difficulty in-game.

Mobility is an asset, so due to MCH/BRD being so similar- would BRD players be willing to take a hefty DPS comparative to MCH loss in order to get their pure mobility back? That's really the question, which case MCH who are able to handle mechanics while being mildly limited mobile wise will be immensely more sought after than BRD.

Otherwise I hope that BRDs in here aren't hoping for just a flat and immense buff without the loss of something equal elsewhere.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greedalox

Mobility is an asset, so due to MCH/BRD being so similar- would BRD players be willing to take a hefty DPS comparative to MCH loss in order to get their pure mobility back? That's really the question, which case MCH who are able to handle mechanics while being mildly limited mobile wise will be immensely more sought after than BRD.

Otherwise I hope that BRDs in here aren't hoping for just a flat and immense buff without the loss of something equal elsewhere.

---

I could actually name a few ideas, but it would be much easier for the dev team to move bard into a direction that would focus more on it's songs and abilities like shadowbind and blunt arrow instead of having a long chain of actions and buffs to manage. Also, it's the combination of the nerfs to shadowbind and our damage output that really hurt me the most from the ARR patches, IMO.

If I could pitch an adjustment/direction to SE for BRD, it would be more about making musical sound an element of it's playstyle. If not incorporated as a change to WM, it could be a new skill. So this is just a concept:
This new skill (or adjusted WM) gives BRD a 4-stack buff. The next 4 GCD attacks exhaust a stack, and attack power increasing with each stack exhausted (essentially creating a 1 > 2 > 3 > 4 combo out of Heavy/Straight/Emp/etc).

But unlike other stack resource abilities like Aetherflow/Wrath, the stack count isn't visible on BRD's status bar. Instead, the buff replaces (or adds to) the sound-effect the stack-consuming GCD Weaponskills make with a unique musical-note from the harp: Do - Re - Mi - Fa or something.

You can count the stacks based on the audio cue opposed to a visual. Audio cues and audio rewards from optimal rotation and CD use. The audio being a nice cue to track your rotation.

If you play with the game muted, you could just count your GCDs after buff activation, or watch your status bar like other jobs. Audio dependance is a problem with this concept. But I think that would be a great distinction for a new & different mechanic for XIV's 'musical' job. Apply this audio concept to other CDs like Raging or WM or Hawk's Eye, BRD makes (goodish) music while burning fools, that music also serving as a guide to the player in keeping with an optimal rotation and maintaining DOTs. That's my crazy for today, sorry if off topic, my brain just wandered a minuet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dzian

If they got rid of the bow mage gameplay of it I might actually start playing bard again.

Seen a few suggestions for bed that scrap minuet such as giving a stacking buff that builds the more you stay still. And falls off the more you move. Taking 2 or 3 steps to dodgensure an aoe for example might only lose 1 stack. Taking more than that would lose more stacks.

They do need to scrap the bow mage element though. Turn the class back into an archer and not a wannabe mage

---

This idea is a really good one to me. I don't like WM (never have) but I've tried to get used to it. I play SCH/AST all the time, so a lack of mobility isn't my issue. The issue I have is with the dodgy cast times. It's jarring if you've only played casters and it's jarring if you've only played bard to 50.