Vote to kick feature

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Originally Posted by Norleas

MCH will always be in BRD's shadow.. unless of course SE decides to bring them back to their former glory.

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We make things go "BOOM!" though, BRD strums a harp goes and "pew pew". I know which one is more awesome.

Kicking based on job choice is still not justifyable unless said job is so broken it doesn't function (which is a situation a player should never find themselves).

Different playstyle is not always bad. IF done right ofcorse. I'd call those players trying/doing uncommon things 'smart'.
But there are those that just make the run extramly awful, I wont mind kicking them.

I was kicked recently for asking a SMN in POTD to switch to Ifrit instead of Garuda because the rest of the group was melee and chasing mobs his pet was knocking back into adds over and over. It was annoying as heck. I wasn't rude about it, I simply asked them to please change because the knockback is annoying for melee. A short time later, i was kicked.

From what I've read in this thread so far, I think the entire issue could be solved if people adequately communicated with each other.

This goes both ways. Players should let their own team know about their goals and get to know their team's circumstances (which can be done very quickly), but other players who are on the receiving end of criticism should put their pride aside and listen to advice if what they're doing is harmful to the party, and for this reason I can't really verify that the OP is giving an unbiased view of the story, here.

Like, for all those who kicked other players for having "bad playstyles," did you adequately communicate your expectations or help to correct the issue before pulling the trigger, or did you just make assumptions about your own party and kicked the "bad" players without saying much? If the latter is true, then you are actually part of the problem.

As an aside, there is no such thing as a "bad" playstyle as it's something completely subjective. Sure, some styles won't be as effective in getting the job done, but that depends on popular opinion and the current circumstances at hand, so I highly recommend you guys get out of that mindset.

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Originally Posted by Windi

As an aside, there is no such thing as a "bad" playstyle as it's something completely subjective. Sure, some styles won't be as effective in getting the job done, but that depends on popular opinion

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This is not true. Play Styles that are less effective are bad. There's no popular opinion, if what you're doing makes it take extra time, it's bad. If it makes what you're doing take less time it's good. It's a pretty objective standard and not subject to opinion.

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Originally Posted by FunkyBunch

This is not true. Play Styles that are less effective are bad. There's no popular opinion, if what you're doing makes it take extra time, it's bad. If it makes what you're doing take less time it's good. It's a pretty objective standard and not subject to opinion.

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Taking extra time is "bad"? I'm sure if you rushed through a chess match, for instance, you'd probably be punished for it. "Bad" and "Good" are inherently subjective terms dependent on the conscientious of a group of people. There is nothing objective about it, and I'd even go on to say that objectivity doesn't truly exist in a medium like games, or anything in society as a whole.

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Originally Posted by FunkyBunch

This is not true. Play Styles that are less effective are bad. There's no popular opinion, if what you're doing makes it take extra time, it's bad. If it makes what you're doing take less time it's good. It's a pretty objective standard and not subject to opinion.

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And this is a shitty answer and a really closed mind style to operate into a community game. Like he said people should communicate.
Would you kick someone because of his job that is less operative for you although it's the only one he maxed so far ?
I have the feeling that i already know the answer.

Personnally when i get into an instance and i want some stuff i ask the team if that wouldn't bother them to leave it to me.
Some agree others don't. But i talked about it and that make it easy and completely understood.

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Originally Posted by MaeIsMean

I was kicked recently for asking a SMN in POTD to switch to Ifrit instead of Garuda because the rest of the group was melee and chasing mobs his pet was knocking back into adds over and over. It was annoying as heck. I wasn't rude about it, I simply asked them to please change because the knockback is annoying for melee. A short time later, i was kicked.

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Who plays with their pet on Sic anyway? Bad SMNs, that's who. May be a generalization but I would have kicked them as well.

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Originally Posted by DemascusW

I have had this numerous times cause players don't like knock back attached to abilities... Guess what TOUGH if it wasn't ment to be used they wouldn't have put it in the game... That's called being a cry baby and you don't want to put extra effort...

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http://www.montereyfish.com/media/im...s/trolling.gif

Pretty sure.

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Originally Posted by Talamarie

And this is a shitty answer and a really closed mind style to operate into a community game. Like he said people should communicate.
Would you kick someone because of his job that is less operative for you although it's the only one he maxed so far ?
I have the feeling that i already know the answer.

Personnally when i get into an instance and i want some stuff i ask the team if that wouldn't bother them to leave it to me.
Some agree others don't. But i talked about it and that make it easy and completely understood.

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I never said I'd kick someone. I responded to a statement about play style. The other post I agreed with or I would have quoted that one and responded.

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I have had this numerous times cause players don't like knock back attached to abilities...

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The ability is supposed to be used to save someone from dying or to protect yourself from getting damage. When it is just spammed when available it is annoying and slows the group down. Especially if you have a MNK in the party.

Unfortunately I do have friends that do this to wind me up when I am on MNK.

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Originally Posted by Windi

Taking extra time is "bad"? I'm sure if you rushed through a chess match, for instance, you'd probably be punished for it. "Bad" and "Good" are inherently subjective terms dependent on the conscientious of a group of people. There is nothing objective about it, and I'd even go on to say that objectivity doesn't truly exist in a medium like games, or anything in society as a whole.

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Non Savage content is not a chess match. And good chess players have timed games and quick moves.
Time taken for an objective is literally the only measurement we have, so yes, doing it slower is worse.

Players using knock-back skills freely are an issue for any class that requires melee distance.

For example, a low level tank. "I'm losing aggro on the mobs, gotta Overpo- shit he blew it away!"

There are intended to keep enemies at bay while you cast a spell. In a party, your tank's whole job is to do just that, so it's unnecessary, and any DPS you gain from the blow is DPS lost from everyone else. So unless you are fighting a baddy that can't be knocked around (like certain bosses), just set that skill aside.

As for the vote-kick, I've really only required it for a few people DC'ing and like maybe 2 jerks. I don't see anything wrong with the current system.

People who use knock-back are scum, scuuuuuummmm. Especially you, healer who runs up to the tank's mobs and uses it to punt them when you don't even have aggro.

https://media.giphy.com/media/cANsku7Wjjj6E/giphy.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/12lV980pEpWM9i/giphy.gif

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Originally Posted by FunkyBunch

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(I hate these character count limits)
That may be the case, but the reason I used that analogy is to demonstrate a situation where going at a slower pace is favorable. Life as a whole isn't bound by a simplistic, binary set of rules, and what rules we instate in society are by and large a construct of our own, collective opinions.

Like, the main reason I'm even having this talk with you is to break you out of that line of thinking, because it promotes oversimplification and generally works against critical thinking. I might be going extreme in my next example, here, but someone can easily say that homosexuality is "bad" and use that as an excuse for a group of people not to change. Thank goodness someone actually challenged that idea in human history, otherwise we would be completely skirting over an aspect of reality to this day.

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Originally Posted by Youkulm

Who plays with their pet on Sic anyway? Bad SMNs, that's who. May be a generalization but I would have kicked them as well.

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But they kicked me.... =( I was on my NIN.

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Originally Posted by Windi

there is no such thing as a "bad" playstyle as it's something completely subjective.

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Not many days ago. Welping city of Mhach. The tombstone fight right before Ozma.

Group A wasn't able to kill the fireballs in time. So the entire alliance recieved massive damage.

At the second set of adds, the fireball exploded again and they did not got the second sets of adds down in time. Result: The entire group A died, because they were locked out of the shield.

There is no "bad" playstyle? Really?

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Originally Posted by Windi

As an aside, there is no such thing as a "bad" playstyle as it's something completely subjective. Sure, some styles won't be as effective in getting the job done, but that depends on popular opinion and the current circumstances at hand, so I highly recommend you guys get out of that mindset.

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Absolutely disagree, especially when it comes to DPS classes. In this game each dps class has exactly one proper rotation of abilities with no deviation. This isn't a player pressure thing you'd see in WoW (i.e. if you want to dps as a Rogue you must be this spec or you suck etc.) the developers of this game clearly intended for each dps class to be played a very specific way.

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Originally Posted by Windi

As an aside, there is no such thing as a "bad" playstyle as it's something completely subjective. Sure, some styles won't be as effective in getting the job done, but that depends on popular opinion and the current circumstances at hand, so I highly recommend you guys get out of that mindset.

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Get the job done? not effective at getting the job done means, they don't or lack the ability to pull their own weight, Which means other people have to make up the slack. Last I checked not many people enjoy parasites. Sorry but "some styles" in a linear mmo like this one equates to someone being lazy or an outright troll. Sorry but unless your private group enjoys carrying you, breaking the meta doesn't fly here. You can gripe and call people out all you want, but in the end, your wrong. Kick system is fine as is. two bit Billy's and their play styles can take a hike.

haha, play styles XD LOL. Look at me der der der, Im a paladin, hur hur hur. I melded dexterity and intelligence materia cause im the most elusive, smartest pld around der der der, *Tank buster* well....damn...

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

Absolutely disagree, especially when it comes to DPS classes. In this game each dps class has exactly one proper rotation of abilities with no deviation. This isn't a player pressure thing you'd see in WoW (i.e. if you want to dps as a Rogue you must be this spec or you suck etc.) the developers of this game clearly intended for each dps class to be played a very specific way.

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The problem is when people expect you to know and execute said "proper rotation" flawlessly all the time. Even if you are in a dungeon for the first time. I hate when people point and laugh and say "Haha, you just want to be carried!" because someone is learning and not doing things perfectly. With how fast it is to level these days (POTD has not helped this), it's easy to get a class to 60. And some of the job guides on this very forum are confusing as hell for someone who isn't 60 and in the best gear.

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Originally Posted by MaeIsMean

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I can sort of see your point here. But I'm addressing people that don't do these rotations or even try to while still claiming their damage is fine. This is going to be purely anecdotal fair enough, but it's to give you an idea of the sort of stuff I'm referring to specifically.

In Sohr Khai, I had a dragoon in the party that used True Thrust, Heavy Thrust, and Impulse Drive with no other weaponskills included whatsoever. They completely ignored their combos. I wish I was kidding, I even told them their rotations and the buttons to hit but they completely ignored me, after a second attempt on the horse boss with absolutely no improvement (we ran out of gravestones at 70-80% because the drg's damage was so awful) despite me telling the drg how to properly do the rotation, I was ignored. I told them they were the worst drg I've ever seen and quit the party in disgust. The drg in question was in full 230's, they should have been the highest damage in the party.

There are people that genuinely believe playing that badly is acceptable and that brings me back to the person I was replying to and the point I was making. It's one thing to not do your rotation correctly while learning a fight, it's quite different to be a level 60 and be playing your class completely wrong because you think your playstyle is fine or that you feel your damage is fine. With the dps classes specifically there is only one way to play them correctly, there are no alternate rotations or playstyles, you can't try using your abilities in a different order you can't try using certain attacks a different way, every dps class has a very structured and precise rotation (procs notwithstanding) that they have to abide by to play correctly.

The game teaches you how combos work, the buttons light up on top of the fact that if you take the time to actually read your abilities and experiment, it becomes pretty obvious what you have to do. Using drg as further example, I had mostly figured out a rotation on my own naturally from just leveling it then when I finally looked at a guide it turns out that I was doing it correctly and I don't think it's because I'm some genius or gaming prodigy, it's because I took five minutes to read my abilities and how they work along with the combo effects.

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Originally Posted by MaeIsMean

The problem is when people expect you to know and execute said "proper rotation" flawlessly all the time. Even if you are in a dungeon for the first time.

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No one expects you to be flawless, we expect you to know your optimal rotation and not drop buffs like Enochian or Blood of the Dragon on fights without much boss downtime. There's also no excuse for not knowing how to deal with trash since pretty much no dungeon has mechanics to watch out for.

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Originally Posted by Legion88

i don't know why i should give a reason to kick someone within this four limited options, this should be free text at first and then it's for the other people to agree with me.

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Blizzard tried this and 99.9% of vote kicks the reason stated was: sfdalkjfuheiec
And everyone in the group that got a vote kick, clicks yes without even thinking about what is going on. I remember seeing vote kicks in WoW and not even understanding what was going on. If I don't see the issue, I don't vote yes, but the majority of people just click yes to move along.

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Originally Posted by MaeIsMean

The problem is when people expect you to know and execute said "proper rotation" flawlessly all the time. Even if you are in a dungeon for the first time. I hate when people point and laugh and say "Haha, you just want to be carried!" because someone is learning and not doing things perfectly. With how fast it is to level these days (POTD has not helped this), it's easy to get a class to 60. And some of the job guides on this very forum are confusing as hell for someone who isn't 60 and in the best gear.

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Here's an example, last night I ran an expert roulette. I saw a other smn in the party and thinking to myself that this will be a very quick run. Now that was my fault since I had that expectation, however first two trash pulls and that smn could not figure out how to get the dots on all mobs.

He was spamming ruin I and garuda was of course set to sic. After the first boss (took forever mind you), he then finally found ruin II, still no dots were applied to any targets, nor shadow flare or death flare, ruin III or any basics. Again, that is the basics of a smn not something advanced that we are asking for and if you're 60 (don't care how you got there), I should assume that you at least know the difference between dots and ruin's.

So I kicked him, but that has nothing to do with my expectations because if we would go by that, I would have kicked him already earlier, since a good and geared smn can pull 2800 - 3500 dps on trash alone. Him being mediocre geared, at least should pull around 1700 dps and not 250 or something like it.

So that excuse about expectations is invalid and I doubt that even if you were in that group, would have tolerated it and just finish the dungeon, which in this case would have taken nearly or over an hour. Nobody got time for that lol and this has nothing to do with flawless rotation or practicing the rotation, all of that I could have tolerated.

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Originally Posted by Windi

As an aside, there is no such thing as a "bad" playstyle as it's something completely subjective. Sure, some styles won't be as effective in getting the job done, but that depends on popular opinion and the current circumstances at hand, so I highly recommend you guys get out of that mindset.

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An ice-mage is bad playstyle. A bard that doesn't sing is bad playstyle. A bard who doesn't sing after being asked to is just bad. Knockbacks with melee teammates is bad playstyle. I think the players who think this is okay are the ones with the wrong mindset.

Vote kick is fine as it is and I would kick you too.
You are just being entitled and are hurting the rest of your party for small DPS gain. Either use knockback on mobs that have resistance or keep it for special occasions, DF isn't raid, you don't have to pop each oGCD on cooldown for small DPS gain.

And I honestly believe that knocking mobs back and forth and making the game annoying to the rest of your party really isn't "playing your job as it is intended."

People just click 'yes' to anything now. Once in trial, the tank wanted to kick a dps for complaining a lot and not dpsing. So he by mistake vote kick a healer. The vote went through and healer actually got kicked! Left me speachless .. people dont read what they are voting for!

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Originally Posted by StrejdaTom

Vote kick is fine as it is and I would kick you too.
You are just being entitled and are hurting the rest of your party for small DPS gain. Either use knockback on mobs that have resistance or keep it for special occasions, DF isn't raid, you don't have to pop each oGCD on cooldown for small DPS gain.

And I honestly believe that knocking mobs back and forth and making the game annoying to the rest of your party really isn't "playing your job as it is intended."

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Knocking a mob out of melee range is a dps loss. Whatever damage they're doing with Blank or Fluid Aura doesn't make up for even one missed attack by the tank alone, let alone if there's a melee dps there.

I like how you guys completely ignored my following post on the subject matter and twisted the intent of the former.

I'm not suggesting you guys break conventions, I'm suggesting that you recognize the nature of conventions and not narrow them down to simple, rigid meanings.

Basically, it just rubs me the wrong way when people describe things as "bad" and "good." "Most/least effective" or "most/less practical" are better terms for me, here.

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Originally Posted by DemascusW

I have had this numerous times cause players don't like knock back attached to abilities... Guess what TOUGH if it wasn't ment to be used they wouldn't have put it in the game... That's called being a cry baby and you don't want to put extra effort...

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But knock back isn't meant to be used just because it's up. It's only meant to be used when you're soloing and need to interrupt a move, or the Tank's stuns are on CD. But using it just because it's there can be an annoyance and even put the party in danger since the tank has to chase the target and possibly aggro another group the party isn't ready to fight yet. Also, I've seen SMNs not put theirs birds on obey so they knock the target that has DoTs away from the group and they screw up their own Banes. That's idiotic.

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Originally Posted by Talamarie

And there goes our freedom in playing the game thank you very much.
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Oh, please tell me why I have to suffer with a SMN who is using Titan and screwing up my aggro tables because he's too lazy to cast Ifrit or Garuda. Or how about a GLD in Aurum Vale that never went to get his PLD quest? Or a BLM that uses nothing but ice? Why should people's freedoms to play efficiently be compromised by someone's freedom to play like an idiot? If the party wants to suffer, that's fine, but if they want to get rid of a player, especially after telling him what he should be doing and him not doing it, that's their freedom as well, and if majority rules... majority rules. I find it funny you mention team, but then criticize someone removing you from the team for not pulling your weight. Think of it as sports. If you aren't doing well, you get cut. You have the freedom to try out, but you certainly don't have the freedom of staying on the team.

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Originally Posted by JustPlainLucas

Oh, please tell me why I have to suffer with a SMN who is using Titan and screwing up my aggro tables because he's too lazy to cast Ifrit or Garuda. Or how about a GLD in Aurum Vale that never went to get his PLD quest? Or a BLM that uses nothing but ice? Why should people's freedoms to play efficiently be compromised by someone's freedom to play like an idiot?

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I think people's points are that you should be able to choose your rotations; summoning a minion you shouldn't be using, using knock-back in dungeons or not doing your class quests classifies you as mentally incapable, not "doing ya own thang!"

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Originally Posted by Lokier

I think people's points are that you should be able to choose your rotations; summoning a minion you shouldn't be using, using knock-back in dungeons or not doing your class quests classifies you as mentally incapable, not "doing ya own thang!"

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It's worth trying to be diplomatic in such scenarios, first, at least.. I've run across many players that genuinely didn't know that Topaz wasn't just a stronger version of Emerald, or how detrimental knockback was for melee since they were simply powering through the story. I've also explained the bonuses for upgrading to a job or taking the time to cross-class skills.

Most of it is obvious, but some people get too ahead of themselves.

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

It's worth trying to be diplomatic in such scenarios, first, at least.. I've run across many players that genuinely didn't know that Topaz wasn't just a stronger version of Emerald, or how detrimental knockback was for melee since they were simply powering through the story. I've also explained the bonuses for upgrading to a job or taking the time to cross-class skills.

Most of it is obvious, but some people get too ahead of themselves.

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Nah I know, I usually attempt to correct them, or see if the dungeon can continue with them being thick as chocobo sh-, but sometimes they don't bother listening and then /cry when we kick them from the group, lol.
Probably worth noting "if you don't know the language you're trying to tick to skip queue times at least know your f-n class or the dungeon in question." - The amount of people I find making these stupid mistakes that don't know even one word in english is appauling. ._.

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

It's worth trying to be diplomatic in such scenarios, first, at least.. I've run across many players that genuinely didn't know that Topaz wasn't just a stronger version of Emerald, or how detrimental knockback was for melee since they were simply powering through the story. I've also explained the bonuses for upgrading to a job or taking the time to cross-class skills.

Most of it is obvious, but some people get too ahead of themselves.

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How is that possible, guild npc specifically tells you.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

How is that possible, guild npc specifically tells you.

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People don't read.

I have only been kicked out once! And, to be honest, I deserved to be kicked out. I was being a punk and got what I deserved.

With that said, if people want to kick others cause of "different play style", I believe it should be allowed. Players tend to be very tolerant anyways AFAIK.

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Originally Posted by Lokier

Nah I know, I usually attempt to correct them, or see if the dungeon can continue with them being thick as chocobo sh-, but sometimes they don't bother listening and then /cry when we kick them from the group, lol.
Probably worth noting "if you don't know the language you're trying to tick to skip queue times at least know your f-n class or the dungeon in question." - The amount of people I find making these stupid mistakes that don't know even one word in english is appauling. ._.

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I've never run into someone who didn't know English (probably because I've stuck to the NA servers) but I HAVE ran into someone on console without a keyboard.

I eventually asked him to run in a circle around me to prove he was listening to our advice to help him tank and he did.

Poor guy, but he was actually trying.