Let's all assume for a moment that classes ought to be simply removed. Would anything replace those aspects? You've gone from near-zero healing on caster classes to truly zero, removed the majority of (extra-rotational) burst options from all but Bard and Dragoon, wasteful but high-enmity add-grabs from melee, taunts from non-tanks, and enmity management from casters. Does any of this help gameplay?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jynx
Now, we could go instead we could revamp the jobs to include similar functions in a unique way. BLM might take Umbral Shroud to temporarily release enmity and generate less over the duration and, alternatively, modifying other abilities, like Ley Lines, to pool duration for upcoming burst needs would remove any ostensible need for Raging Strikes. Similarly, Blood for Blood has never especially been that significant over time nor especially interesting outside of its syncing with other abilities; I'd see that as a reason enough for now to keep it, but in the long run would expect such abilities would be among the first trimmed...
But let me present an alternative. You revamp the classes, filling out more of each class's gameplay and identities through mechanical traits, which can then be cross-classed. Each class gets, say, 5 traits. Each job brings in 2 more. Each class at level 60 can take on 8, while having access to the majority of other class's traits cross-class. Each job can take on 7, with fewer cross-class trait options. Now, by combination of gameplay-affecting mechanical passives, you might just have a Gladiator who is both highly customizable and therefore distinct from a PLD.
In my honest opinion, it's not the classes that are holding us back, or even any adherence to a class system. It's the adherance to a specific number of stat-increasing traits, the exact same number of traits and abilities given to each class, the exclusion of job traits, similar arbitrary but stubborn rigidities, and the complacency to scarcly differentiate classes integrally—in their gameplay, in their undermechanics, etc.—that cut short any future development.
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07-12-2016, 07:31 AMShurrikhan
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07-12-2016, 07:43 AMRiceisNiceThat'd be a quaility of life change which honestly puts some use to the UI. As of now, mana is entirely useless on MNK, NIN and DRG but is still there because reasons. If each job had it's own interface to show their respective resources (such as ACN having a better indicator of their aetherflows, or the aforementioned BotD timer). It lends a bit more flavor to the job. But I'd imagine they've shot themselves in the foot with the design of the UI, since classes like LNC, PGL and ROG can use mana, but job crystals take away that ability ,but is still technically the same class.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dualgunner
To chime in, this also goes in line with the cross skill mechanic. Honestly it really adds no depth to the individual jobs other than button bloating. It's literally the same skills sans traits and takes away from the individuality of the job. Especially for "essential" abilities like invigorate, swiftcast, and provoke. Instead of giving each job their own way of managing TP, it's all done in the same manner. Tanks lost a flavor in the taunt department, and swiftcast feels obligatory for healers in almost any content. Not to say remove it completely, but those utilties and dps would be baked into their inherent moveset, if not added as a new skill entirely since you're freeing up 5 skills from cross classing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
In general, cross-skilling always comes back to the same problem; there will always be optimal choices and ultimately the ability to select those traits takes away from job identity and homogenizes them. Not to mention something like mechanical traits are designed with the job in mind, whatever works on archer may not nessescarily work on gladiator. For a big change to work, you don't want to take away the idenity of a an existing class, you want to expand on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
It's both imo. The way the class/jobs are now, you can't reasonably make branching jobs due to how they share abilities and traits from 1-50. The way cross skills work now, they are essentially required (and this really isn't up for debate when a fight demands tank swaps) and you end up having skills that are exactly the same on multiple jobs, taking away from individuality, fantasy and flavor. Jobs not having traits is also locking it to those soul crystals, and leads to button bloating (which cross skilling also does) while being unable to add depth or identity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
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07-12-2016, 08:43 AMJynxAs the poster above me stated it's really both.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Remove the classes, re balance the jobs to have unique ways to manage the same effect as the old cross class skills while removing a few for abilities that would make the jobs unique upon themselves. But your right they are suborn in making sure that each job gets "X amount of things" and regardless of how that effects how they balance them.
The class system being in play restricts any future development period. -
07-12-2016, 01:14 PMEnkidoh
Except classes are more deeply connected to the game than simply gameplay functions - remember the classes and their guilds are actually connected directly to the game's storyline and the citystates (like, CNJs are Gridania's leaders and overseers and the CNJ's Guild functions as the city's magocratic government, ACNs are used as Limsa Lominisa's customs agents with the ACN Guild the city's customs house, MRD is the class of choice of pirates and in an effort to clean up the class the Guild was absorbed into the Coral Tower, the HQ of the Knights of the Barracuda who are Limsa's police-and-military-rolled-into-one, etc etc). To say nothing that one of the first things a player is made to do as part of the story when first starting out as a new adventurer, they are told to go to the Guild for their class and register with them.
All that (and more) would have to be scrapped, changed and replaced simply to accommodate removing the base classes from the game, a massive undertaking that would upheave the game's fundamental structure so much, I don't think SE would ever even consider doing such a thing. It would just end up wrecking the game too much to even bother with - the old 'pull one loose thread and end up unraveling the whole thing' sort of situation. -
07-12-2016, 01:39 PMRiceisNiceWhich is why they opted out with the new jobs being a job-only deal. I mean, the class >job thing wouldn't be a problem of its own, it'd just be a "promotion" in theming only. Trying to make it go beyond that in regards to branching jobs is going to cause problems. I mentioned it eariler, the only purpose the class->job promotion that can be reasonably done is for lore reasons. This is the limit of how high a class>job promotion can do in it's current state, unless they have abilities and trait retroactively change in relation to the job crystal you're wearingQuote:
Originally Posted by Enkidoh
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07-12-2016, 01:46 PMAlahraSometimes, though, fundamental reworks don't provide a lot of actual benefit, as would largely be the case with any reworks of Extra Jobs to include base classes or for SCH to receive its own base class. They all function fine as is within the framework as provided, with SCH perhaps only needing the decoupling of its stat points from ACN now. That's ultimately why I don't see them doing anything in this regard: they would need to create new quest content for all of the jobs from 1-30, which includes a lot of content (cutscenes, dialogue, instanced battles, and so on)—again, all for very little benefit for the majority of players (and provides for logistical issues like whether or not existing level-capped characters need to do the new quests and the like, though there is some precedent for this with Legacy players I think).Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
If SCH or one of the other jobs had a bit of an identity crisis, something more drastic might have been appropriate. SMN/SCH did have some identity issues prior to HW, but instead of reworking one of them from the ground up, they elected to make the necessary changes post-50—which achieves the same end goal but without need for fundamental modifications. -
07-12-2016, 02:16 PMRiceisNiceThis comes at it's limit when you're looking at skill bloating though. And in the case of summoner, they've become less pet oriented in favor of being more of a caster. How do you think they'll expand upon it with an increased level cap now? It's still not very much room to work with when their base rotation, and it hasn't been very exasperated since SMN and SCH fufill different roles by definition... and this isn't getting into the balance of SCH compared to the other healers, and while that's a discussion for another time, it;s still the consequence of SCH drawing from the same ability pools as SMN since they are inherently much more capable of doing dps than their peers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alahra
The ranged dps are also in somewhat of a similar scenario since they're essentially all casters, and MCH/BRD sharing a lot of parallels to each other. Something like WM is making a change without addressing the foundation, and the result is that you have a very poor interaction between oGCDs and cast times. The way it is right now, it really doesn't feel like there's an approach to what they want the jobs to feel like. There's currently no focus on pet jobs and there's no ranged-dps in the traditional sense, both something they've actually moved away from. -
07-13-2016, 12:52 AMAlahraWell, yes, they can only add so many skills before they'll need to begin condensing things. But there are avenues they can use to tackle skill bloat, not all of which would require fundamental redesigns of classes. Abilities past level 60 could instead take the form of traits, modifying existing abilities, rather than adding new buttons, or future abilities might instead be choices, some of which might replace older ones or the like (which is something Black Mage and White Mage already have to a degree, though it's a bit clunky in execution due to level syncs).Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
While I want to see some general restructuring of the classes in general, I suspect we won't see anything like that until 5.0 at the earliest, as Yoshi's mentioned that they're aware of skill bloat, but he seemed to think they'll tackle it at the top end of things rather than the bottom, at least for now. (He specifically mentioned having options for abilities as one thing they're considering, which suggests that their thought right now is to curb further growth, rather than chop away at what's already there.)
SE's MMO teams have a long history of making very conservative adjustments, and even the largest adjustments always tend to be built on what has come before. Even the transition from 1.0 to 2.0 was done incrementally, and despite Classes being relegated to the dustbin in terms of game and content balance, the Job system is still in many ways tacked on top of the older system from 1.0, with some adjustments. Even when they were rebuilding the game arguably from the ground up, they maintained many of the core elements from it. I wouldn't be surprised if they're apprehensive about large-scale, foundational, changes, as a big part of the reason this game exists at all the way it does is to say thank you to their Legacy players—a crowd they probably wouldn't want to alienate by straying too far from the original system.
Is that best for the game in the longterm? I'm no soothsayer—but I'd say they will have to make changes eventually to some things, as the system is a little unwieldy and counterintuitive at this point, and runs the risk of only becoming moreso with time. I think we'll have a better idea of where they're planning to go with classes and jobs after we find out more about 4.0's new jobs—will they continue with the "Extra Jobs" label of DRK/MCH/AST? Will we see any new base classes (I think this is unlikely, but not completely out of the question)? Will there be yet another category of jobs instead? It's pretty hard to say right now. -
07-13-2016, 01:48 AMSavagelf
seem whenever we deal with redesignment of game machinic they more radical as they go
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07-13-2016, 03:29 AMRiceisNiceLet's be honest though, I doubt legacy players at this point of the game make up a good amount of player demographics, it's mostly new and casuals at this point. Dilute that even more to those players who actually like the cross-skill gimmick or think it adds depth to each job. Extra jobs (starting at level 30) in design is really no different than how ninja/rogue was handled, the problem really roots back to the cross classing when you see that rogue has no cross-skills for any of the current jobs, not even the new ones. And consequently, because the 3.x jobs don't have a class, they by default have no abilties that can be crossed either. In a broad view, they're specifically moving away from the cross-skilling (which stems from classing) rather than classes as a whole, and likewise with branching jobs due to how SMN/SCH turned out with how it limits their design.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alahra
There's a lot more room for creativity if they had gotten rid of cross-skills altogether; it's five extra slots for each job and another way of giving them mechanics to handle their resources (specifically physical dps in regards to tp) or flavor (since they're entirely fine with making abilities functionally the same, like WM/GB, why not do the same for provoke and protect among the tanks and healers?) -
07-13-2016, 04:16 AMTankHunter678
So if I am reading this correctly by this point the general idea to remove the restrictions on future design imposed by the current system is...
1) Axe cross-classing, any functions important to the job/class that were from other classes gets implemented into the job/class via "new" class flavored skills.
2) Axe the connection between a class and a job.
a) With no cross classing the class can proceed to level cap without having to be held back, they can get their LB3 back and get new skills from 50-current level cap, and allowing their function to be changed if needed since they do not need to operate as the base of a job.
b) Jobs can be changed to simply require similar classes (that use the same main weapon basically) to level 30 and be treated as separate things entirely like how Rogue required you to be level 10 in any other class before it could be picked up, allowing their function to be changed if needed. EX: Warrior becomes a Heavy Melee DPS -
07-13-2016, 07:47 AMAlahraIn general I don't see them doing this—part of the reason cross-class skills exist is to encourage people to try and play other classes. Personally I'd rather they expand cross-class skills in some way, rather than removing them.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
Rogue actually does offer cross-class skills (Shade Shift, Goad, and Death Blossom), but since none of the existing Jobs have Rogue as a requirement, they don't see see any use. Future jobs may have access to them, though, especially if they move to a point where another job uses Scouting gear—any such job would be more thematically likely to have Rogue as a subclass than others would be. -
07-13-2016, 09:27 AMmadolyn
so you basically want them to waste resources making alternate fantasy versions of the jobs but as the class itself? so instead of getting new jobs, we would have the original ones, same weapons, essentially same skills except for a couple new ones to make a "gladiator dps and warrior pirate dps" (examples)? On top of this, you would have the classes and jobs rolling on items together. I can see how that would go. "but I need that sword and shield, its gonna boost my dps! All you do is tank and soak damage." -_- No thanks. I'll pass.
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07-13-2016, 10:04 AMSavagelf
i do have thought here is my thought expand the cross skills to cross skills traits for example.
see traits have not add expand on.
I not rework combat system that like pulled rug for underneath players. leave it be. Plus Yoshi P did make promise never to change it
ffxiv is unquine it has very amazing history why was ffxiv called a realm reborn. simple put 1.0 was close to be failure then came along Yoshi P. he and talented devs team toke the failure know as ffxiv and made it into succeed.
ffxiv isn't ffx1-2 nor is wow ffxiv skinned. it is ffxiv it stand alone at own unqine product -
07-13-2016, 12:48 PMShurrikhanAgreed; for me there is just one key aim—for the player to love his class/job. But, while that has foremost to do with its core gameplay, it all has to do with its progression and opportunities. In both cases—it comes down to his experiences with it, in and between fights, and perhaps even where it carries over into other classes. I'll prioritize the class itself, sure, but if there's something that adds to the player connection to any and all classes, potentially, rather than homogenizing them, I'll take that. It might not be appropriate until certain changes to how leveling itself works (shared EXP between classes when performing similar functions, or being able to spend EXP on a related class's skill even before you've reached its normal acquisition level on that class, etc.), but I think that's a goal worth undertaking, especially given the lackluster nature of character progression in this game, especially across multiple classes/jobs on the same character.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
That said... Is there not a mathematical best in job selection? Yet we still have jobs that aren't technically optimal even in their surrounding compositions, which may already be sub-optimal in a way that advantages that job, attending and clearing content. You're using number-balancing as a reason not to have complexity. It's external complexity in this case, where balance may conflict with what feels "natural" or (therefore) "fun" for a given class/job, and therefore, depending on how you look at it, more appropriate to sacrifice. But it is still that same key argument. I could have sworn you preferred that gameplay & identity be looked at, almost exclusively, before worrying about numbers? I could understand an argument as to this slowing balancing changes necessary for different classes, etc., who are more key to the iconic raiding environment, but to say it's flawed just because balances will be necessary? Just because it might inevitably end up varying a few percent in output over a given fight?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
That's exactly what I'm trying to get at though. There's nothing about "a" class system that says that jobs stemming from it must take all the same base skills. You could just as easily give a class more skills than any one job expanding from it can take atop its own unique job skills. Nor is there any rule in a system that happens to have source classes and expanded jobs that the jobs aren't at all allowed to modify the effects of class skills passed on to them. It's not the fact that we have two tiers of broad / customizable and deep / iconic classes-jobs that's holding us back. It's the execution in relating the two to each other.Quote:
It's the adherence to a specific number of stat-increasing traits, the exact same number of traits and abilities given to each class, the exclusion of job traits, similar arbitrary but stubborn rigidities, and the complacency to scarcely differentiate classes integrally—in their gameplay, in their undermechanics, etc.—that cut short any future development
This much I definitely agree with. When they continually make fights that necessitate those skills, they just become a part of an awkwardly extended check-list, with yet more components that likely aren't intrinsically fun whatsoever. Being able to explore new avenues though, and being more fluidly able to bring them into your combat style to augment it in ways you wouldn't have expected from your class thematic alone, even if it does in the end fit quite nicely... I would love that.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
Of course, we'd first need real class thematics for that to even be a thing.
I'd be fine also with just replacing the cross-class skills with more distinct versions stemming from each separate class; I just don't want to jump to the easier solution without exploring what all character progression advantages a cross-class revamp could offer. One of the things that's always bugged me about this game is how it sells itself as being "all classes on one character" as if that were "alt friendly" when it effectively just means "main + cross-classes per character for best gearing opportunities" and "no quests for your other jobs' leveling, sorry... but at least you get bonus EXP." -
07-13-2016, 01:09 PMRiceisNiceIdk, it feels really arbitrary when they're essentially forcing you to level other classes just to be able to function in end game (and sometimes not even) content. Specifically abilities like provoke. If it means getting rid of the homogenization of all physical dps getting B4B and invigorate, but instead have 5 new abilties in it's place that gives more depth and identity to each job, I'd rather ditch the cross classingQuote:
Originally Posted by Alahra
I already addressed this; I said that none of the existing jobs can use rogue skills, not even the new ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alahra
The way it is now is also a retroactive problem; MCH, AST and DRK offers no cross classing. Some of them would not even make sense conceptually if you tried (trying to cross class something like wildfire, rapid fire, or reload) to put it on another class/job by itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
Well I'm speaking for it as is. If they want to make it work, the changes need to be implemented to how it works in general from the ground-up. Skills need to be retroactively changed as you equip a job crystal, traits need to be job exclusive, etc etc. We just have none of that in the current workings, unless you count MCH/DRK/AST traits by definition since they are job-only.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
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07-13-2016, 09:59 PMAlahraIt's not arbitrary at all: you just don't happen to think the goals the developers likely had are worthwhile ones. Is it necessary for a game to function? No. But it accomplishes things that can have value to the developers and indeed the playerbase, such as extending playtime, diversifying players' understanding of other classes, and also getting players to try things they might not have otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
Just as one anecdotal example, I've never healed in my previous MMOs in a serious way, and would have never gave Conjurer a real, post-15-shot if Stoneskin hadn't been a cross-class skill for Paladin. SCH ended up being my main in ARR after I found the healing here to be quite different from its state in other games and is still my secondary today. If it weren't for that, I actually probably would have quit the game prior to NIN's release, and may not have returned for it.
I do agree that Provoke is problematic, as there actually is content that requires it, and it should probably either have its level swapped with something pre-15 (since both tanks require GLA 15 anyway), or WAR and DRK should have Provoke "Clones." None of the others are strictly necessary, however, though Invigorate and Swiftcast are strong enough that they could also use equivalents for the other classes. -
07-13-2016, 10:11 PMFelis
I would prefer if all jobs get changed into classes (without replacing the current classes) and that we can use all learned skills on all classes like we did before 1.20
And THM get changed back to cone AoE DoT astral/umbral damage healer.
During 1.x that was solved with favor classes and optimal level on gear instead of required classes and level (can wear every gear, you just get a bit of stat penalty if wearing it with the wrong class or level) and leves (8 every 36 hours) and behest (every 30 minutes in a camp) as the way to level up. MSQ and sidequests only existed to tell a story, not to level up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
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07-14-2016, 02:26 AMTankHunter678So in other words, remove classes and just give us a bunch of omniclasses with special names?Quote:
Originally Posted by Felis
Cause that sounds just like a case of no class identity. That works in games designed around a single class with a bunch of horizontal options, that works in a game like Final Fantasy X or XII where there are no classes and it was built with homogenization customization in mind. That wont work here, which is why the game was redesigned away from that. -
07-14-2016, 04:09 PMShurrikhan< (Some 200 levels covered during legacy, from 1.0 to 1.23)Quote:
Originally Posted by Felis
Agreed on the optimal gear, but to be honest, the penalties were pretty harsh, and the cross-over opportunities they offered depended more, imo, on the fact that every job could use most primary stats in some way. Lancers were Strength, Piety, Dexterity, with Archers their inverse, etc. Mind was a useful offensive stat along with a healer SP source.
That said, I'm not sure the sheer lack of exp coming from quests (albeit of an an average higher quality) can be called a "solution" to quests being primarily spent on a main character and nothing really remaining to make the alt leveling experience similarly lively in a similar fashion. Inevitably, this is going to happen, but I feel like the solution needs to be more quickly generate-able, but still gameplay-enjoyable, content if anything, along with possibly accelerating the overall leveling experience BY making leveling across multiple classes feel more connected, rather than by just tossing on bonus EXP. I'm not saying we should bring back the fatigue system to invert the way bonus exp would basically ask us to prioritize our lead class, instead damn near forcing us to spend time on our alts, but I'd really like to stop feeling like I just unlearned almost everything I just spent 50 levels on when I hop to a new class. They 1.0 physical level partly did this, in combination with the multi-stat system—I think that's a decent start, although its previous incarnation does certainly point out some flaws.
I personally would not prefer that. I prefer the idea of having classes as tools or paths for learning, experimentation, and coming into one's own, and jobs as goals—assuming a particular, iconic role, bringing a few different tools to it than others, perhaps, but in all ways that job. The only alternative I could see myself liking is making jobs essentially an extra skill-set, such as "Ancient Magics (Dark)", "Eikonic Manifest", <Greater White Magics>, etc., affinitive to certain classes due to their skills and weapon choices but otherwise a separate mix-and-match layer atop them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Felis
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07-14-2016, 04:35 PMBourne_Endeavor
The devs have already expressed said they view the class system as something of a failure, and have no intention of revisiting them. An overhaul of this magnitude wouldn't really have a benefit since you have to then ask, what makes a Gladiator or Marauder unique? Being a sellsword or pirate aren't standouts in the sense you can really devise a whole separate job/class around what wouldn't just clash with Paladin or Warrior. It's the same as when people ask for a pure-blooded Garlean race option. What makes them unique beyond being Hyurs with a crystal eye?
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07-14-2016, 04:54 PMKotemon
I doubt it. however in Halatali hard and Hullbreaker hard Gladiators and Marauders have renamed variants of the same abilities we get in the jobs for Gladiator and Warrior, Oddly Conjuer and Thaumaturge clones in Triad control use tornado and breakga. Spells I don't see used in Amdapor by the undead Whm and Blm's, although they have ancient spells we cant use either. If they do expand classes past 30, I can only see it as a means to expand the number of cross class actions for Jobs to use.
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07-14-2016, 11:00 PMZareka
This sounds awesome. Dual wielding heavy armour DPS? Spear tanks? Heal/damage combo classes? Yes please.
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07-15-2016, 12:10 AMDorander
What they really need to do, is level cap classes at 30. Force players to get/equip their job crystal to advance further. It would be a permanent level sync without the crystal equipped. Cannot gain experience and can't queue up in duty finder for anything higher level than 30. They can toss all the level 34 cross class abilities to level 28, (put mantra at 24) and really drive home that classes are the "newbie school" of battle.
Speaking of newbie school, they need to make the hall of the novice mandatory. Put it as a part of the MSQ for new characters. As for veteran characters, they must complete it on a given role before they can queue up in duty finder as that given role. -
07-15-2016, 12:58 AMGramul
They originally said they would give Classes a more single player emphasis while Jobs would be for parties, but eventually that fell through when it turned out Jobs where just strictly better all around. The only real reason they added Jobs in the first place was to placate the classic Job factor 1.0 was missing.
They became 'hats' for classes, and eventually just turned into a redundant relic from 1.0 that will likely not be repeated any time soon. -
07-15-2016, 01:27 AMChalbee
I like the idea of bringing the base class back into focus. I just don't see how it could work without causing a mess. The game is too dedicated to its system at this point. They could give us a skill tree, but others have already mentioned the "illusion of choice" scenario that would follow. And considering how much people already gripe about ""the bads"" on this forum, the last thing we need is another way in which players can be labeled ""bad"" (read: not follow the established skill tree). Admittedly, this player base is very forgiving of casual players, but there are some elements who would seemingly relish the opportunity to remind the rest of us how terrible we are.
It might be nice if they could give us some more quests at the class guilds though. -
08-17-2016, 12:30 PMTerin
I still stand behind this idea. I love the idea of playing as a GLADIATOR, but not so much as a Paladin. Just the thematic difference in "fantasy". Better still if it incorporated actually participating in the Colosseum, beyond that Hildebrand quest-chain.
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08-17-2016, 12:33 PMbass9020Sadly people wanted this changed from 1.0. Everyone wanted more defined and well known jobs from FF games past so it was changed. Personally I would like just classes with no jobs and a improved cross class system. Hell just call them all jobs instead of classes if it makes people happy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Terin
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08-17-2016, 12:44 PMShurrikhanAt this point I'm so used to the idea of jobs being the predominant mode that I've pretty well given up on the concept that any given job can be formed from the mixture of skills and traits from the different classes. I just want leveling on a class, which I can focus in on a job or not — at my viable choosing — to feel like I'm actually exploring through the lens of the different classes and creating builds of my own. I'm fine with the preset iconical or archetypal builds (the jobs we have) staying mostly as is, as long as I can explore the other themes that would seem possible for the weapon type.Quote:
Originally Posted by bass9020
The chances of getting any of that though... -
08-17-2016, 01:29 PMGemina
Do I get Carbuncle back? If so, so in!
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08-17-2016, 05:17 PMDuelle
Personally, I'd rather have classes be capped at lv30, as that would allow the devs to look back certain classes (ACN comes to mind) and making post-30 abilities better suited for the related jobs (SMN and SCH come to mind).
I see the merit in making classes their own thing, but a part of me sees that it would basically take away from potential jobs entering the game. -
08-17-2016, 05:37 PMIsala
Create level 30 class quest, to gain class stone. Not job stone, but to further your training in your base class. Give it the stats boost of the Job stone, but do it similar to the crafters with [class] "Specialist." So, an Arcanist Specialist would focus in Carbuncles, a Conjurer specialist would focus more on the elements instead of the Holy nature of WHM, a Gladiator specialist would focus on raw martial prowess, not the healing and support of PLD. And give us all new abilities to go along with the new focus of the class. Create a system where we have a ton of classes of all types, and lock your level to 30, unless you have your specialist, or Job stone equipped.
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08-17-2016, 06:49 PMJim_Berry
The annoyance of a new ROG using Provoke and Flash while trying to use Cure would be a problem.
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08-17-2016, 08:39 PMDoranderThis is still 'branching' jobs if you think about it from a coding perspective. Which, as they devs have said, they will not be doing again because of how much of a nightmare SCH and SMN are. If you throw in Arcanist into the mix, then you have a job that splits 3 ways, which will be even more of headache. Whatever changes they do to any skills shared between the branches will still have to be weighed and messured on how they affect each branching job. Then they have to take into consideration gear, because they'd all be using the same weapon and armor types and the'd need to rebalance them stat wise. Along with the added headache of needing to use the stat changing hymns every time you want to switch between them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Isala
Example: Let's go with SMN, SCH, and ACN. Since it would be split 3 ways. Three jobs with the exact 18 skills from 1 - 50. Now, unless they gave some really unique 30, 35, 40, 45, 50, 52, 54, 56, 58, 60 skills to ACN 30+ it really wouldn't be anymore more than a slightly different flavor SMN with Carbuncles instead of Ifrit, Garuda, and Titan. See how it starts getting needlessly convoluted and copy/pasta? That's just ONE base class.. think of the insanity of them all doing something like that. Sorry to burst bubbles, but the devs have way different plans.
As in, they've explained a few times that they want each job to feel exclusive or have some sort of originality to the way it fulfills it's given role. Which is why going forward they are only going to be introducing jobs (without base classes) that are aesthetically unique. Each job has it's own weapon style. Sword and Board for PLD, Axe for WAR, and so on. The new jobs they've hinted at - Red Mage and Samurai would have to have their own weapon style. Which is fairly easy to guess. RDM - Rapier, Samurai - Katana. Both with their own functionality and flair to what they bring to the table.
I know a bunch of you want the base classes to have their own moment in the spotlight. However, they really are just remnants of 1.0 and are being phased out as much as possible. At this point in the game, you'd sooner see them removed completely or continue to collect dust and be forgotten. -
08-17-2016, 10:46 PMKallera
I would love to use classes again, mostly because I'm sick to death of the imbalance and don't want them to dissappear.
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08-18-2016, 12:06 PMShurrikhanI don't see the merit of scrapping a system or dismissing its potential for revamp over a single dual-job; the SCH/SMN example you've given here is also the only instance of this issue. Nor would classes have to be capped at 30 to make ability as differing between SMN and SCH more unique. Classes provide an avenue to bring more choices into the game. Instead you want to force players into jobs just to hit level 31, entirely cutting out those options and all they could be, when you can have and improve both the classes and jobs?Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle